Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[rob1966]

I'd like to broaden this a bit and instead of just blaming referees bring the linesmen into it as well. It seems to me that you cannot expect a referee to see everything that goes on in a game, it's too fast now for that to be possible. But sometimes as I watch games I think linesmen become almost like statues rather than being the second eye of the referee. The number of times you watch players of all teams (including us!) take throws in having ran a good few yards down the touchline, is just bizarre. This has happened right in front of a linesman who rarely even signal it to the referee. Is this something that has changed suddenly, are they only there now to judge offsides (very late) or foul play? It just seems to me that the point of having two other officials there should mean that all times they are helping the man in the middle see the things, that he can't always see.

This goes back over 20 years Jill. I remember seeing one referee on telly (can't remember the show) basically saying to the linesmen "you look out for offsides, corners and throws and I'll deal with the rest". I believe that the current crop see themselves as above Lineo's and treat them as secondary.

One that sticks with me is Chelsea, may have been the stupid NYD 11am KO game, we had a corner at the Kop end (we used to sit in row 3 Kemlyn just outside the Anny Rd pen area in those days) and clear as day Carvalho handles a shot on the line - the linesman was stood not far from us, he had a clear unobstructed view, he saw it clear as day and he ignored it. The whole section was giving him dogs, screaming at him and he just shrugged it off. That was one of many times where we saw linemen ignore incidents.

I wonder if Sian Massey either gets let off from this because she's a woman or she takes no shit, as she's always been excellent when I've see her running the line.

[kavah]

...I'd also like to see a training programme which fast tracks recently retired footballers into match officiating.
...And I'd like to see a separation of powers so that VAR is administered by a separate body.

good post - these are belters

[jillcwhomever]

This goes back over 20 years Jill. I remember seeing one referee on telly (can't remember the show) basically saying to the linesmen "you look out for offsides, corners and throws and I'll deal with the rest". I believe that the current crop see themselves as above Lineo's and treat them as secondary.

One that sticks with me is Chelsea, may have been the stupid NYD 11am KO game, we had a corner at the Kop end (we used to sit in row 3 Kemlyn just outside the Anny Rd pen area in those days) and clear as day Carvalho handles a shot on the line - the linesman was stood not far from us, he had a clear unobstructed view, he saw it clear as day and he ignored it. The whole section was giving him dogs, screaming at him and he just shrugged it off. That was one of many times where we saw linemen ignore incidents.

I wonder if Sian Massey either gets let off from this because she's a woman or she takes no shit, as she's always been excellent when I've see her running the line.

If referees are not using the linesmen it just shows how incompetent the whole organisation is and they really do need to be stripped down. But I think more than anything they need a younger blood of referees to challenge the ones who have become way too comfortable. It really annoys me that yet again we only have white officials for the most part broaden the choice and allow people from all parts of society to be involved in the national game. Sian Massey is a good mention she was usually very good when I saw her, but it's never easy when there is only one of you which is another reason why it needs to change, if things are to improve.

[Hestoic]

I think there is an element of these referees wanting to be household names. Many of them are in their late 30s/early 40s watching early 20 year old lads making millions around them in the same game - the game in which they have the power as referee. Mike Dean was a prime example of this, and there's an arrogance to this crop of referees that they are on par with elite footballers and because they get to control the game, they should be treated as they view themselves. They try and make themselves the main show, when really they need to stay in their lanes.

[rob1966]

If referees are not using the linesmen it just shows how incompetent the whole organisation is and they really do need to be stripped down. But I think more than anything they need a younger blood of referees to challenge the ones who have become way too comfortable. It really annoys me that yet again we only have white officials for the most part broaden the choice and allow people from all parts of society to be involved in the national game. Sian Massey is a good mention she was usually very good when I saw her, but it's never easy when there is only one of you which is another reason why it needs to change, if things are to improve.

Part of the issue is how toxic football is at all levels. My youngest wants to start refereeing to earn some money and I've said no - I've seen the shit that goes on at U6's games, there is no way I'm exposing him to that. I can imagine a non white young ref would get loads of racist abuse off some knuckle draggers that watch kids footy.

The solution is something like referee academies, where you start at a young age and only referee at professional clubs, doing academy games etc. and you progress to the leagues as you pass through the course. Combine this with taking Pros in the game and training them to be referees. Make the pay worthwhile , £1million a year, fuck all in the context of how much money is in the game, fund it from players wages if need be, the likes of Mo won't miss £10k a month for example. Just sort it.

[ljycb]

I've been watching the Premier League for 30 years and Liverpool and Everton have always been treated worse than other comparably sized clubs. No coincidences as it's the most anti-establishment city in the UK.

When it comes to the Premier League, surely Liverpool and Everton are the establishment? Given that the Premier League is the clubs in it and us two are two of the six who initially broke away.

[rob1966]

When it comes to the Premier League, surely Liverpool and Everton are the establishment? Given that the Premier League is the clubs in it and us two are two of the six who initially broke away.

You'd never know it the way we get treated. Us and Utd provide the money via the TV, yet we're the scum club.

[kavah]

 “  they’re all out to get us” what’s that all about? Have the debate and the discussion but you’re implying anyone that isn’t thinking like you is a knobhead.

There is unfairness re the 12:30s
There is bias for a lot of reasons mentioned above.

[Fitzy.]

“  they’re all out to get us” what’s that all about? Have the debate and the discussion but you’re implying anyone that isn’t thinking like you is a knobhead.

There is unfairness re the 12:30s
There is bias for a lot of reasons mentioned above.

That’s some inference you’re making.

I think it’s safe to say we’ve had a very successful and high-quality debate and discussion with respect all round. No name calling.

[keyop]

“I’m not an “agendas” guy but that gets me thinking…”

That's a cracking OP Fitzy (one of many interesting topics you've started over the years).

I agree we will always show some selective bias. This is partly because it's what fans do, but I also think it's because we have a far more deeply ingrained sense of injustice due to the way the city and fans have been treated in the past - by the government, the police, and the justice system. Decades of being fucked over will naturally lead to a greater scrutiny over decisions, and suggestions of a wider conspiracy and dark forces deliberately working against us.

I'm personally more in the 'refeeres are shite' camp rather than systemic and deliberate anti-Liverpool decisions, but I can see why others get so angry and suspicious.

However, your post speaks to a much wider and overlooked point, which is that many are far too obsessed with the minutiae - whilst overlooking the real elephant in the room. Too busy raging about the micro issues in a game, when the macro state of football is an utter shitshow.

This is evident no more so than in the toxic criticism of players, the owners, and many other factors - even during Jurgen's reign when we've had some of the best moments of our lives, whilst up against the biggest cheats in sporting history. Dozens of pages and topics have been filled with people crying into their keyboards about net spend, FSG, signings, performances, players, and tactics. Some of that is natural on a discussion forum, but it's reached obsessive and unhealthy levels at times, which massively overlooks possibly the biggest determinant of our success under Jurgen and why we don't have an even bigger haul of trophies - which is Man City.

It's so obvious it shouldn't need saying, but without City's cheating we'd have been head and shoulders above the pack for at least 4-5 of the last 7 seasons. We'd also have suffered less burn-out as we wouldn't have been trying to rack up 95+ point seasons just to be in with a chance of the title.

Sportswashing oil clubs are the biggest common enemy by a mile - not the referees, or FSG, or our performances, or whether a player meets the requirements of the many impatient and entitled fans on here. The logic isn't hard to grasp - take City out the equation and the referee mistakes are less important or impactful. FSG's perceived prudency is no longer such a big issue. A player or the team can have an off day without getting slaughtered. We don't need to spend, spend, spend to compete. We'd have less injuries, as we wouldn't have spent 7 years pushing our squad to the ridiculous limits required in this new landscape of cheating and state ownership.

I'm all for debate, but as you so eloquently point out, many seem to have forgotten who the real enemy is that we're fighting - and the one that has had by far the biggest impact on our success than any other factor during all of Jurgen's reign.

[Red Ol]

Good op Fitzy. Yeah, I don’t think there is any huge organised conspiracy as such, but it’s plain to see there is bias from a handful of refs. It seems worse now than ever which is down to the things you’ve said and three main thing in particular.

1st, with the introduction of VAR the influence of the bad apples is widened so not only do you get the Paul Tierney types periodically ruining matches on the pitch, they also now have many more opportunities to ruin it remotely from Stockley Park. Although I think the bias is probably more to do with personal dislike and ego than backhanders.

2nd, the terrible tv and social media coverage that’s designed to create controversy and stoke tribalism means that all these bad calls are much clearer to see now and even harder to forget due to the numerous replays and clips. And what’s most galling is that there appears to be no consequences for those making so many of these very bad calls.

3rdly, money talks, especially dirty money. Always been the case of course but with Abramovich and then Abu Dhabi muscling their way in on our game it was quite clear that these ruthless powerful owners, with no interest in the sport itself or sporting fair play and with track records of corruption themselves, now have major influence in our sport. So it’s not hard to imagine that some dark things are happening and that there’s at least some corruption going on at some level even if it’s not particularly widespread.

[Eeyore]

That's a cracking OP Fitzy (one of many interesting topics you've started over the years).

I agree we will always show some selective bias. This is partly because it's what fans do, but I also think it's because we have a far more deeply ingrained sense of injustice due to the way the city and fans have been treated in the past - by the government, the police, and the justice system. Decades of being fucked over will naturally lead to a greater scrutiny over decisions, and suggestions of a wider conspiracy and dark forces deliberately working against us.

I'm personally more in the 'refeeres are shite' camp rather than systemic and deliberate anti-Liverpool decisions, but I can see why others get so angry and suspicious.

However, your post speaks to a much wider and overlooked point, which is that many are far too obsessed with the minutiae - whilst overlooking the real elephant in the room. Too busy raging about the micro issues in a game, when the macro state of football is an utter shitshow.

This is evident no more so than in the toxic criticism of players, the owners, and many other factors - even during Jurgen's reign when we've had some of the best moments of our lives, whilst up against the biggest cheats in sporting history. Dozens of pages and topics have been filled with people crying into their keyboards about net spend, FSG, signings, performances, players, and tactics. Some of that is natural on a discussion forum, but it's reached obsessive and unhealthy levels at times, which massively overlooks possibly the biggest determinant of our success under Jurgen and why we don't have an even bigger haul of trophies - which is Man City.

It's so obvious it shouldn't need saying, but without City's cheating we'd have been head and shoulders above the pack for at least 4-5 of the last 7 seasons. We'd also have suffered less burn-out as we wouldn't have been trying to rack up 95+ point seasons just to be in with a chance of the title.

Sportswashing oil clubs are the biggest common enemy by a mile - not the referees, or FSG, or our performances, or whether a player meets the requirements of the many impatient and entitled fans on here. The logic isn't hard to grasp - take City out the equation and the referee mistakes are less important or impactful. FSG's perceived prudency is no longer such a big issue. A player or the team can have an off day without getting slaughtered. We don't need to spend, spend, spend to compete. We'd have less injuries, as we wouldn't have spent 7 years pushing our squad to the ridiculous limits required in this new landscape of cheating and state ownership.

I'm all for debate, but as you so eloquently point out, many seem to have forgotten who the real enemy is that we're fighting - and the one that has had by far the biggest impact on our success than any other factor during all of Jurgen's reign.

Nope you are in the camp that you have to defend FSG. Even though there has been absolutely no criticism of the owners.

The debate is about perceived corruption and bias against Liverpool Football Club yet you bring up FSG on three occasions.

[Fitzy.]

That's a cracking OP Fitzy (one of many interesting topics you've started over the years).

Cheers pal.

Yes, the wider, macro-based issues certainly steer the direction of football far more than where refs are born etc. allowing states to own football clubs - community assets - has changed the game more than nearly anything else I can think of.

[Aeon]

Fallacy? You are probably thinking of fellatio too much.

The Premier League nowadays is not just corrupt. It is a fraud. Your entire country is bent and failed.

[naYoRHa2b]

Once again if it's corrupt VAR overturn the pen, they rule the Newcastle offside On. They are just shit and biased.

[reddebs]

Has Aldo been sanctioned by the fa for something he's said about the refs?

He keeps refusing to say anything because he's not allowed.

[Knight]

This is why people need to shutup about corruption. People bleating about refs being against us all game... when we've been given 2 penalties. It's just bizarre. Yes some yellows were annoying but honestly. Be quiet.

[Stevo]

Yep, if that Jota penalty was at the other end and given against us we’d never hear the end of it.

[DelTrotter]

Yep, if that Jota penalty was at the other end and given against us we’d never hear the end of it.

Hahahaha you legit think Diogo has given up a simple tap in to dive? Yeah mate, really likely that

[Golyo]

This is why people need to shutup about corruption. People bleating about refs being against us all game... when we've been given 2 penalties. It's just bizarre. Yes some yellows were annoying but honestly. Be quiet.

This is just an stupid take on this match. We had two penalties in this match and no VAR ever recommended anything like these to be overturned. Yes, both were soft penalties, but there was contact on both occasions. Can you tell me how Joelinton escaped a yellow in the first half?

[Knight]

This is just an stupid take on this match. We had two penalties in this match and no VAR ever recommended anything like these to be overturned. Yes, both were soft penalties, but there was contact on both occasions. Can you tell me how Joelinton escaped a yellow in the first half?

this is the thread that keeps on giving in terms of proving Fitzy right.

[Golyo]

this is the thread that keeps on giving in terms of proving Fitzy right.

Why do you quote me? Do you expect me to search for another user's post history?

[Knight]

Why do you quote me? Do you expect me to search for another user's post history?

Huh? It’s literally his thread.

[Golyo]

Huh? It’s literally his thread.

Did you see unbiased officiating in this match?

[Knight]

Did you see unbiased officiating in this match?

Ah yes, there we go. The adamant certainty that there is ‘obviously’ bias against us. Any evidence in favour becomes cast iron. Any evidence against, completely ignored.

[JP!]

Did you see unbiased officiating in this match?

I genuinely wouldn't bother mate.

[smicer07]

Ah yes, there we go. The adamant certainty that there is ‘obviously’ bias against us. Any evidence in favour becomes cast iron. Any evidence against, completely ignored.

Not booking Joelinton was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

[Knight]

I genuinely wouldn't bother mate.

That would be great. If all the ‘it’s corruption’, ‘it’s bias’ posts could just not be bothered with we’d have a much better forum.

[JP!]

That would be great. If all the ‘it’s corruption’, ‘it’s bias’ posts could just not be bothered with we’d have a much better forum.

Zzzzzz

[MonsLibpool]

Antony Taylor put in another corrupt performance.

A ref that's meant to be unbiased was clearly biased. How Joelinton went 66 minutes without a yellow is beyond me.

[Knight]

Antony Taylor put in another corrupt performance.

A ref that's meant to be unbiased was clearly biased. How Joelinton went 66 minutes without a yellow is beyond me.

The corrupt bias was extremely self defeating this evening. Perhaps the ineptitude of the ‘corrupt bias’ might be better off just labelled as ‘incompetent’.

[DelTrotter]

The corrupt bias was extremely self defeating this evening. Perhaps the ineptitude of the ‘corrupt bias’ might be better off just labelled as ‘incompetent’.

You're proper weird.

[MonsLibpool]

The corrupt bias was extremely self defeating this evening. Perhaps the ineptitude of the ‘corrupt bias’ might be better off just labelled as ‘incompetent’.

Incompetent when he was clearly favouring Newcastle?

He was trigger happy anytime they dived.

[Redley]

The corrupt bias was extremely self defeating this evening. Perhaps the ineptitude of the ‘corrupt bias’ might be better off just labelled as ‘incompetent’.

You know two things can be true at the same time I assume? Like a referee clearly being pretty biased against us in a game but us still winning the game. I don’t think Lance Armstrong won every race he was on when he was doping, did he?

[Knight]

You know two things can be true at the same time I assume? Like a referee clearly being pretty biased against us in a game but us still winning the game. I don’t think Lance Armstrong won every race he was on when he was doping, did he?

You guys are busy raging about yellow cards not given whilst ignoring the major decisions which made a demonstrable impact on the game both going for us. It’s very odd.

[Son of Spion]

Once again if it's corrupt VAR overturn the pen, they rule the Newcastle offside On. They are just shit and biased.

Basing opinion on single instances or single games proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. When looking at bias you look at overall trends.

Everybody knows the world of football is corrupt. The only debatable thing is whether or not it filters down to the field of play and influence outcomes in certain situations.

[JP!]

You guys are busy raging about yellow cards not given whilst ignoring the major decisions which made a demonstrable impact on the game both going for us. It’s very odd.

Did you think they were both wrong then?

[Andy82lfc]

Taylor is clearly bias and always has been.

The fact some on here are following rat boys comments is truly pathetic.

Both pens have clear contact and both fall the next time that leg hits the ground. VAR or the ref aren’t doing us any favours  they are just toeing the line.

Yet no yellows for Joelinton first half are not reffing by the book and clearly against what should be done. That’s the difference it’s not that hard to grasp for fucks sake. Well unless people are swallowing agendas from rat boy that is.

[Son of Spion]

That would be great. If all the ‘it’s corruption’, ‘it’s bias’ posts could just not be bothered with we’d have a much better forum.

No, we wouldn't. A healthy forum has a range of views and opinions.

[MonsLibpool]

Taylor is clearly bias and always has been.

The fact some on here are following rat boys comments is truly pathetic.

Both pens have clear contact and both fall the next time that leg hits the ground. VAR or the ref aren’t doing us any favours  they are just toeing the line.

Yet no yellows for Joelinton first half are not reffing by the book and clearly against what should be done. That’s the difference it’s not that hard to grasp for fucks sake. Well unless people are swallowing agendas from rat boy that is.

I had the game on mute. Couldn't listen to Neville's drivel.