Topic: The Klopp Template

[NarutoReds]

Fucking low block, hate that with passion. But as Klopp said himself,

"We didn't lose the tie tonight, we lost in Madrid."
"We didn't score and then the experience of Real Madrid played the tie (out)". -- Jurgen Klopp

Aaarrrrggghhhh!!! It is so depressing here in office.

[Knight]

We've not played 'heavy metal football' since 2018

Fair point. I was looking for a way to summarise the poster above who said we’ve moved away from the template, which is the problem. Whatever the template is, I’m not sure we have and if we have it’s been a response to teams conceding territory and possession and exploiting space behind the fullbacks.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Playing against a low block would be less of an issue if the team didn't pass it sideways or backwards every time they regain possession in the middle of the pitch.

[NarutoReds]

Playing against a low block would be less of an issue if the team didn't pass it sideways or backwards every time they regain possession in the middle of the pitch.

I believe that is why Klopp brought in Thiago in the later part of the game, mate. Maybe.

Real Madrid did building a low block wall in front of their goal.

And as expected, we were struggling with that.

[El Lobo]

Fair point. I was looking for a way to summarise the poster above who said we’ve moved away from the template, which is the problem. Whatever the template is, I’m not sure we have and if we have it’s been a response to teams conceding territory and possession and exploiting space behind the fullbacks.

This seasons been a perfect storm of shitness to be fair.

We obviously rely on 4/5 players for attacking thrust. Most of them have had poor seasons, look knackered, played too often or had to change how they play because of the injuries we've had elsewhere. TAA and Robbo suddenly don't have the same confidence in the CBs, so haven't been as effective attacking and haven't had the same cover from midfield as we've missed Fab and Hendo there for large chunks. And we haven't been able to rest them at any point as the alternatives aren't anywhere near the same standard yet (Neco) or have been injured a lot and not really settled in yet (Tsimikas). We've then had the new rotation option up front injured for the most intense part of the season for 3/4 months, and the midfield options we have to potentially provide thrust (Ox and Naby) have been injured a lot too.

I do think we've maybe not used the squad as well as we could though.

[BobPaisley3]

I think the main issue is that we just haven't been succesful with our midfield recruitments. AOC and Keita have been injured half the time, and they haven't been very good when fit either (aside from short spells). Overall, their contributions have been marginal. Shaq is ok for the price, but not a bargain like Robertson either. Thiago looks good, but he hasn't provided us with any more goals and assists than Henderson and Gini. The exception is Fabinho, who is a fantastic player.  Fabinho is the only midfielder we have signed in the last few years that has really elevated the team. In attack and defense, we've had much higher success rate - most recently demonstrated by Jota.

Fair point actually. Shame that Ox and Keita have suffered the injuries they have as they’d have been ideal in a Klopp midfield when in peak physical shape. Gini was a Klopp signing too though remember and he’s been generally outstanding.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I believe that is why Klopp brought in Thiago in the later part of the game, mate. Maybe.

Thiago is one of the worst offenders in this regard. In theory, if he was on the bench you'd bring him on to manage the game if you were ahead, not play at speed to try and grab two goals.

I'm actually coming around to the idea of Trent moving into midfield. He can pass, he can run with the ball and he can shoot - which is everything we're asking for - and teams are increasingly nullifying him on the right hand side of the pitch anyway. Buying a top right back would probably cost less than a top midfielder, and there are a clutch of really good young right backs around. With Curtis Jones and hopefully Harvey Elliott coming through we might end up seeing someone less overtly attacking on the right side of the forwards, and more thrust and goals from midfield. I don't think it'll happen next season necessarily, not with Van Dijk coming back in to be that focal point on crosses, but I suspect it's what will happen in the next two years.

[NarutoReds]

Thiago is one of the worst offenders in this regard. In theory, if he was on the bench you'd bring him on to manage the game if you were ahead, not play at speed to try and grab two goals.

I'm actually coming around to the idea of Trent moving into midfield. He can pass, he can run with the ball and he can shoot - which is everything we're asking for - and teams are increasingly nullifying him on the right hand side of the pitch anyway. Buying a top right back would probably cost less than a top midfielder, and there are a clutch of really good young right backs around. With Curtis Jones and hopefully Harvey Elliott coming through we might end up seeing someone less overtly attacking on the right side of the forwards, and more thrust and goals from midfield. I don't think it'll happen next season necessarily, not with Van Dijk coming back in to be that focal point on crosses, but I suspect it's what will happen in the next two years.

Agreed, in terms of your suggestion Trent to midfield though. I think there certainly seems to be a different type / role of player waiting to burst out of from Trent...

ESPN: "Liverpool's Alexander-Arnold could take his game to next level and revive England career with move into midfield"

"Perhaps it is time to think about Alexander-Arnold being deployed elsewhere on the pitch, such as in midfield, in order to play to his strengths and diminish his weaknesses."

"The problem for Alexander-Arnold is that his performances at right-back lend themselves to such a laser-like focus, with Saturday's 90 minutes in the 2-1 win over Aston Villa giving his supporters and detractors ample evidence to back up their diametrically opposed opinions of the 22-year-old."

"Take his winning goal, for instance. It was a shot straight out of the Steven Gerrard textbook. A crucial late winner that beat the goalkeeper with pace and precision as the ball curled into the bottom corner from 20 yards out."

- https://www.espn.com/soccer/england-eng/story/4358031/liverpools-alexander-arnold-could-take-his-game-to-next-level-and-revive-england-career-with-move-into-midfield

[Fromola]

Of all the 'top' teams we don't really have a particularly good set of fringe/youth players nor does the depth really run that far. Especially when you assume the current 'cover' (Shaq, Origi, Ox etc) might be soon to go.

It's unnecessary fixtures when really all we really want is to qualify for the CL as a minimum.

'

Perhaps, but if for example we didn't qualify for Europe it's an excuse to carry a much smaller squad next season and move on all the fringe players.

[lionel_messias]

Thiago is one of the worst offenders in this regard. In theory, if he was on the bench you'd bring him on to manage the game if you were ahead, not play at speed to try and grab two goals.

I'm actually coming around to the idea of Trent moving into midfield. He can pass, he can run with the ball and he can shoot - which is everything we're asking for - and teams are increasingly nullifying him on the right hand side of the pitch anyway. Buying a top right back would probably cost less than a top midfielder, and there are a clutch of really good young right backs around. With Curtis Jones and hopefully Harvey Elliott coming through we might end up seeing someone less overtly attacking on the right side of the forwards, and more thrust and goals from midfield. I don't think it'll happen next season necessarily, not with Van Dijk coming back in to be that focal point on crosses, but I suspect it's what will happen in the next two years.

I've heard it said there are plenty of good midfielders around but not many great right backs. That's probably true. I'm in two minds about this with Trent. From right back, he sees the whole game in front of him, and opponents can't really mark him, he bursts into space and his crosses can be devastating as a result. Where you make a very good point is that our midfield in general needs more creativity and goals and if Trent could add that, there might be an argument there. Wherever he is, he'll naturally drift wide I think, perhaps his cross is a good as David Beckham's which is an amazing weapon for any team to have.

Virgil's forehead will be waiting hungrily!

[Bjornar]

We've played against low block tactics regularly for years, it's not new this season, what's new is our inability to cope with it.

[keyop]

We've played against low block tactics regularly for years, it's not new this season, what's new is our inability to cope with it.

Indeed. Between 2018 and 2020 we dispatched the bottom half clubs like clockwork - many of which set up to defend for 90 minutes.

I don't think this season is a good indicator of Klopp's template or how the next few seasons will pan out. The impact of injuries has affected the whole system to such an extent that almost every part of what made us so good last season has been impacted. Some examples include:

1. Losing Virgil/Gomez (and then Matip) affected how Alisson, Trent and Robertson played - especially the latter two who were more risk averse and mindful of protecting whichever combination of CB's we had each week. Their assists have inevitably dropped, and we've had less players in the attacking third, which in turn affects the impact of the front 3 to some extent. We also lost Virgil's aerial ability from set pieces at both ends, plus his elite passing.

2. Without overlapping fullbacks, opposition defences have been playing much narrower, meaning Mane/Firmino/Salah have had to drift out wide more often to receive the ball in space (where they are less dangerous). The fact that Salah has scored so many considering the circumstances of this season is incredible.

3. Not having that defensive wall (and pace) of Virgil/Gomez/Fabinho has meant our central/attacking midfielders are in two minds on whether to push forward to support the strikers, or hold back to protect the defence and stop the counter attacks.

4. Without Fabinho/Henderson together in midfield we've lacked the control and high press that allowed us to regularly receive the ball in transition when the opposition were at their most vulnerable. This is where I believe we would have seen Thiago at his best - playing most of the game in that pocket between midfield and the strikers and causing chaos.

5. With all the injuries, we've been unable to rest players very often, leaving them fatigued and less effective in our usual high energy system that was so effective at wearing down the bus parkers

There's loads of other finer details that have been affected (which have been discussed in other threads), that have all contributed to the system/template not being as effective as in the previous 3 seasons. However, I certainly don't think it's the players that have lost the ability to beat a low block, or even the system that's at fault. It's the fact that we haven't had the same players, in the same positions, playing the same system - these factors have had by far the biggest effect.

This is why the suggestion of teams having 'worked us out' is so laughable. In 2018/19 and 19/20 we destroyed them all, and the only reason we haven't done it again is because of all the things listed above and more - not because they are any better or know how to deal with us.

Hopefully we'll see a return to more normality next season where we'll also hopefully see the Thiago we expected this season, plus other players like Keita/Ox/Shaq perform at a higher level because the system around them is working properly.

[Samie]

We need someone who can break the lines form midfield. We thought Naby would do that but the lad can't stay fit, same with Ox who's less talented than Naby.

We also need an out and out centre forward.

[MD1990]

to be honest
Nearly every team this season has struggled more in attack this season

Even Man City will be well down on there goal return from last season

[keyop]

I'm actually coming around to the idea of Trent moving into midfield. He can pass, he can run with the ball and he can shoot - which is everything we're asking for - and teams are increasingly nullifying him on the right hand side of the pitch anyway. Buying a top right back would probably cost less than a top midfielder, and there are a clutch of really good young right backs around.

Maybe Trent can do all those things better because he's an attacking full back? He gets more space (like Robertson does) because he's coming from deep, and more time on the ball as the opposition defence/midfield is already busy marking our strikers/midfielders.

There are plenty of great attacking fullbacks that stayed as attacking fullbacks because they provided their teams with the best of both worlds - two players for the price of one. Players like Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Lahm, Dani Alves, Ashley Cole and others were (like Trent) also excellent at passing, running with the ball and striking the ball, but weren't moved into midfield.

I'm not saying Trent wouldn't make a good midfielder - he definitely would. But I don't think we should assume that moving him into midfield suddenly means he can do everything he does as a full back but further forward, as midfield brings its own unique challenges - not least of which is less time and space. Moving him forward would also leave a Trent-sized hole at right back, which we can't fill with another attacking fullback if Trent isn't doing the role our current midfield does. We could end up having a world class midfielder, but sacrificing a world class full back (and a key part of our system).

[skipper757]

We need someone who can break the lines form midfield. We thought Naby would do that but the lad can't stay fit, same with Ox who's less talented than Naby.

We also need an out and out centre forward.

True about the midfield.  Loved Ox and Naby driving forward and providing something different, but both have so many fitness issues.  They're also less reliable as cover for Trent on the right (though we used to play Naby on the left a lot early in his career here and that seemed to work well).  I am excited for Curtis Jones though.  His defensive work has really picked up as well.  It was Leeds first game of the season where he didn't track a runner into the box for the third goal.  But by the January games, he was on another level.  Was a huge reason why we were in the game at 1-1 against City for example with his all-around work.  He has the dribbling ability and isn't shy to have a pop from range also.  We could use another young dynamic midfielder, but Jones' all-round game has been pretty impressive.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Maybe Trent can do all those things better because he's an attacking full back? He gets more space (like Robertson does) because he's coming from deep, and more time on the ball as the opposition defence/midfield is already busy marking our strikers/midfielders.

There are plenty of great attacking fullbacks that stayed as attacking fullbacks because they provided their teams with the best of both worlds - two players for the price of one. Players like Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Lahm, Dani Alves, Ashley Cole and others were (like Trent) also excellent at passing, running with the ball and striking the ball, but weren't moved into midfield.

I'm not saying Trent wouldn't make a good midfielder - he definitely would. But I don't think we should assume that moving him into midfield suddenly means he can do everything he does as a full back but further forward, as midfield brings its own unique challenges - not least of which is less time and space. Moving him forward would also leave a Trent-sized hole at right back, which we can't fill with another attacking fullback if Trent isn't doing the role our current midfield does. We could end up having a world class midfielder, but sacrificing a world class full back (and a key part of our system).

Better than what? He's 22, he started out as a midfielder and there isn't a question over his ability. And his experience in that part of the pitch would hypothetically make him more able to interact with an attacking right back because he understands the position. I understand the issue of space but it also means he has less influence on the game than someone with his passing range and shooting ability could do.

That wouldn't be an issue if the rest of the team was firing, but it's clear that isn't the case right now and other teams have largely learned how to combat the existing system anyway. The system is going to have to be changed to some extent regardless, so it makes sense to look at how that might manifest itself.

[keyop]

Better than what? He's 22, he started out as a midfielder and there isn't a question over his ability. And his experience in that part of the pitch would hypothetically make him more able to interact with an attacking right back because he understands the position. I understand the issue of space but it also means he has less influence on the game than someone with his passing range and shooting ability could do.

That wouldn't be an issue if the rest of the team was firing, but it's clear that isn't the case right now and other teams have largely learned how to combat the existing system anyway. The system is going to have to be changed to some extent regardless, so it makes sense to look at how that might manifest itself.

I'm not sure other teams have learned how to combat the system. It worked for 3 seasons and then a truck ran over our squad which changed everything.

[Sheer Magnetism]

That isn't true though. We'd been thumped by City and Watford last season and Villa this one before the injuries took hold, and outsmarted by Atletico in Europe. The injuries obviously make a difference to its effectiveness but teams had already learned how to pack the box, shut off crosses from the flanks and break at speed to beat our high line. Tactics work in cycles which is why the most successful teams are always evolving.

[lionel_messias]

Away from the tactical elements for a second, Klopp has 3 years left at Liverpool.

I think he will honour that and not extend as he is a sensible man who values his family and understands burnout, in top level sport.

Will be fascinating to see how he approaches the last 3 seasons. Will he start to renew the team extensively, leaving younger players behind? Will he also buy one or two players
who are near peaking now, so that he can maximise BIG trophy in the time remaining?

He had a system that worked brilliantly, how far will he stick to that formula, how far will he flex it? As a manager he has nothing to prove, at this point he is only expanding his legend at Liverpool. Though, as I've banged on about a lot in the transfer forum: we have our peak manager NOW, so we should be moving heaven and Earth to get him the best players he wants. The point about crazy dreams like Mbappé is not just the player, it is the player WITH KLOPP.

Can't wait to see what happens next, to be fair.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

That isn't true though. We'd been thumped by City and Watford last season and Villa this one before the injuries took hold, and outsmarted by Atletico in Europe. The injuries obviously make a difference to its effectiveness but teams had already learned how to pack the box, shut off crosses from the flanks and break at speed to beat our high line. Tactics work in cycles which is why the most successful teams are always evolving.

You can't win every game. Leeds just beat City with ten  men a week ago.  What said sides did, is nothing new that hasn't been done against us in the past for a number of years. However we stopped being successful in combating them, for xyz reasons, not because what they have done is so evolved and new in football.

We have to go back to being able to counter that, as we have for a number of years, not reinvent the wheel. because they certainly aren't.

[El Lobo]

I'm not sure you can say we were outsmarted by Atletico either. We were well on course to win that game until Adrians brainfarts.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I'm not sure you can say we were outsmarted by Atletico either. We were well on course to win that game until Adrians brainfarts.

In the first leg you can make the argument that they outsmarted us [ we played poorly as well]. However, as you said, the 2nd game was a different thing all together. We were dominant, created clear chances, and won the game in regulation, hell we even got the 2nd goal in ET, so it's not like Atletico prevented us doing what we're good at. Ultimately we gifted them the game via Adrian. That was it. Robertson hit the bar 5 yards out in regulation time as well prior to us scoring the first goal.

So the notion that they played brilliantly and shut us down, is completely false [for the 2nd leg].

[keyop]

That isn't true though. We'd been thumped by City and Watford last season and Villa this one before the injuries took hold, and outsmarted by Atletico in Europe. The injuries obviously make a difference to its effectiveness but teams had already learned how to pack the box, shut off crosses from the flanks and break at speed to beat our high line. Tactics work in cycles which is why the most successful teams are always evolving.

Those are all either selected one-offs or in the case of Atletico, just beaten by a better performing team over 2 legs. Watford was a freak result after winning every game for 5 months, City was post-lock-down (after we'd won the title!), and no-one can say the Villa 7-2 was anything other than a complete outlier.

We were top on Christmas day last year, and our struggles really started to take hold as the injuries piled up and affected the system.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Those are all either selected one-offs or in the case of Atletico, just beaten by a better performing team over 2 legs. Watford was a freak result after winning every game for 5 months, City was post-lock-down (after we'd won the title!), and no-one can say the Villa 7-2 was anything other than a complete outlier.

We were top on Christmas day last year, and our struggles really started to take hold as the injuries piled up and affected the system.

Correct. We lost a handful of games over the course of 3 seasons up until this particular one. And sides have started playing specific ways against us consistently since 2018/2019 [some of them did it in 2017/2018]. But we've had major success against those playing styles up until our greatest strengths to counter those, have been impacted [whether it be injuries or loss of form ala Mane and Firmino]

[aw1991]

Those are all either selected one-offs or in the case of Atletico, just beaten by a better performing team over 2 legs. Watford was a freak result after winning every game for 5 months, City was post-lock-down (after we'd won the title!), and no-one can say the Villa 7-2 was anything other than a complete outlier.

We were top on Christmas day last year, and our struggles really started to take hold as the injuries piled up and affected the system.

Agree. I think the moment we lost Gomez was basically the moment to get ready for a difficult season, and it is just that.

[Wengerpresser101]

In general in football, low blocks is essentially a compression of space right. So there are a few ways that I can think of to create space in football.

Players who can dribble and beat 2 or 3 players, create space.

Players with alot of off the ball movement in the box create space.

Quick one touch or two touch passing in triangles in the box create space.

More players moving around in the box (having an overload) create space.

With us, I think these components mentioned above, were present in the 18-19 season. Namely dribbling and beating players via Mane and Salah, quick one two touch passing triangles between the front three, and alot of movement in the box.

However they seem to have regressed, and I haven't seen Mane or Firmino beaten a few players on the dribble in a while, even Salah only occasionally beats players on the dribble. In the box, there rarely is much quick one or two touch passing with triangles. We tend to be content to shift it out wide and cross it. Also I think Salah's movement in the box is still good, however Mane and Firmino don't seem to be moving as much. In addition, I think we lack a central midfielder bombing forward which could also create space.

So I think that what we need to do to counter this low block thing, is to get some players who can dribble past players, and players with lotsa movement in the box. Jota fits that description, hence probably why we play well when he plays. Hopefully we get another one in the summer.

Style wise, I think we should start with playing quick one two touch passing triangles in the box more (instead of choosing to pass it to the full backs, cross), and also have more movement in the box, and dribble past players more.

Another thing that could help is also having one of our central midfielders get into the box more often, that would create overload, and also add extra movement, which would create more space. I think Jones has potential for this. Or whichever central mid we buy in the summer. I also think Minamino's movement in the box is actually pretty good, so hopefully he will get a chance to contribute next season.
 
So yeh I think if we tweak our style to focus more on quick passing triangles in the box, players dribbling past defenders, constant movement in the box, and overload via a midfield runner, that should counter the low block.
 

[MonsLibpool]

That isn't true though. We'd been thumped by City and Watford last season and Villa this one before the injuries took hold, and outsmarted by Atletico in Europe. The injuries obviously make a difference to its effectiveness but teams had already learned how to pack the box, shut off crosses from the flanks and break at speed to beat our high line. Tactics work in cycles which is why the most successful teams are always evolving.

I agree. I think even without the injuries, we wouldn't have had it as easy this year. Teams literally put 7 men behind the ball at ALL times against us this season effective nullifying our counters.

[Wengerpresser101]

I agree. I think even without the injuries, we wouldn't have had it as easy this year. Teams literally put 7 men behind the ball at ALL times against us this season effective nullifying our counters.

I agree three. I think while injuries and drop in form have no doubt made it harder, even without it, our core patterns of play of fast counters, crosses from out wide, hardworking midfield engine, speedy inside forwards, would have been less effective against low block teams who just sit deep, of which are like, 90% of the teams we play.

[Dave McCoy]

I think we're just going to run it back and hope that we don't have similar injuries which would then allow for a reversion to previous tactics where Trent/Robbo didn't have to defend anywhere near what they are now.  That then repowers the attack along with a hopeful uptick in set piece goals from VvD or Matip being back.

When you consider the current financial environment, the current contract status of most of the squad and how most managers just don't willingly change from what they know then I think this makes the most sense.  A signing or two isn't going to change this.  Think there is more downside risk here than we want to admit but it's probably the best option available.

[keyop]

I agree. I think even without the injuries, we wouldn't have had it as easy this year. Teams literally put 7 men behind the ball at ALL times against us this season effective nullifying our counters.

Most bottom half clubs have setup like that for decades. It's how they survive - have a go at similar teams around them but shut up shop against the top teams and hope to nick a point. The ones that don't will often get battered - like Bournemouth and Norwich last season.

We steamrollered the bus parkers in 2018/19 and 2019/20, which is how we achieved 97 and 99 points. There are lots of reasons we couldn't do it this year, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with teams like Burnley, Fulham or West Brom changing how they play against us, or giving defensive masterclasses.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Most bottom half clubs have setup like that for decades. It's how they survive - have a go at similar teams around them but shut up shop against the top teams and hope to nick a point. The ones that don't will often get battered - like Bournemouth and Norwich last season.

We steamrollered the bus parkers in 2018/19 and 2019/20, which is how we achieved 97 and 99 points. There are lots of reasons we couldn't do it this year, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with teams like Burnley, Fulham or West Brom changing how they play against us, or giving defensive masterclasses.

Agree again. As bad as the Villa game was, it was a one off with all our players available. It's not like that was happening frequently [and let's not pretend that half of the goals Villa scored weren't off massive deflections, 4 in fact which I've never seen in my life of watching and playing football].

It's a bit silly to use that one game as an outlier for the rest of the season as if we had all our players fit and we had the same issues whilst they were playing, when that clearly isn't the case.

That's not to say that we can't alter some things with our patterns of play, but myths have now been created about us not being able to play against certain sides aside from this year, when that isn't true.

[markmywords]

I think we're just going to run it back and hope that we don't have similar injuries which would then allow for a reversion to previous tactics where Trent/Robbo didn't have to defend anywhere near what they are now.  That then repowers the attack along with a hopeful uptick in set piece goals from VvD or Matip being back.

Indeed. Between 2018 and 2020 we dispatched the bottom half clubs like clockwork - many of which set up to defend for 90 minutes.

I don't think this season is a good indicator of Klopp's template or how the next few seasons will pan out. The impact of injuries has affected the whole system to such an extent that almost every part of what made us so good last season has been impacted. Some examples include:

1. Losing Virgil/Gomez (and then Matip) affected how Alisson, Trent and Robertson played - especially the latter two who were more risk averse and mindful of protecting whichever combination of CB's we had each week. Their assists have inevitably dropped, and we've had less players in the attacking third, which in turn affects the impact of the front 3 to some extent. We also lost Virgil's aerial ability from set pieces at both ends, plus his elite passing.

2. Without overlapping fullbacks, opposition defences have been playing much narrower, meaning Mane/Firmino/Salah have had to drift out wide more often to receive the ball in space (where they are less dangerous). The fact that Salah has scored so many considering the circumstances of this season is incredible.

I keep reading this but I'm not sure it's true

If you take robertson he has played over 240 crosses this season from 31 games which is about 8 per game, if he manages just 28 crosses from the last 7 matches he would have doubled the amount of crosses he made compared to the 2018/9 season

I'm not so sure our fullbacks have been as defensive/cautious as people are suggesting. I think part of reason is teams might be responding to what are doing better, trent's crossing success in particular has dropped from 29% in that season to 19% this season, it could be that teams have stopped trying to stop the cross and focus on defending narrow are just trusting their ability to deal with it.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I keep reading this but I'm not sure it's true

If you take robertson he has played over 240 crosses this season from 31 games which is about 8 per game, if he manages just 28 crosses from the last 7 matches he would have doubled the amount of crosses he made compared to the 2018/9 season

Is he making the same quality of crosses? Is he playing at the same level as he was in the last two seasons? [He hasn't since XMAS]

He's still creating the most chances in the side, him and Trent both lead the way, but they to be a bit more aware when they go forward than they have in the past.

The other problem is, the diminishing form of Mane and Firmino. Mane in particular.

[Bjornar]

Everyone loves Klopp, but I get the sense there's quite a few LFC supporters who haven't particularly embraced his ideas about how to play football. At least I don't know how else to interpret the downplaying you see here of the results we've achieved under him.

When City got that 100 points season, I would never in a million years have imagined us being able to match that, thought we would have to rely on their level dropping and try to capitalize. Now, apparently, when we went on to produce similar points totals in two seasons in a row, the lessons to take from that is that the weaknesses were showing even then. It's ridiculous, we won every single game, until we didn't have to anymore. Regardless of what's going wrong now, I don't understand the need to rewrite that part.

[Wengerpresser101]

Most bottom half clubs have setup like that for decades. It's how they survive - have a go at similar teams around them but shut up shop against the top teams and hope to nick a point. The ones that don't will often get battered - like Bournemouth and Norwich last season.

We steamrollered the bus parkers in 2018/19 and 2019/20, which is how we achieved 97 and 99 points. There are lots of reasons we couldn't do it this year, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with teams like Burnley, Fulham or West Brom changing how they play against us, or giving defensive masterclasses.

Did we steam roll the bus parkers in 19/20? I remember we won alot of games by one goal margins, and it was our defence that won us games not our attack. We did steamroll them in 18/19 tho, lots of 3-0, 4-0 type of wins.

I remember watching the Watford game and thinking, oh yeh that was coming, instead of being surprised. Because our level of play had dropped abit by that time, but we kept winning games through sheer force of will rather than style of play. However sheer force of will is not sustainable, as we found out this season when player's intensity dropped.

I think if we expect players coming back from injury to result in us suddenly destroying low blocks, by using our usual tactics without changing anything, we'll be in for a harsh awakening. I just don't see how Van Dijk, Gomez, Hendo, Matip returning will make dismantling low blocks easier. All it might change is enable our full backs to push up higher, which would facilitate more crosses that low blocks will just kick away.

[Wengerpresser101]

I keep reading this but I'm not sure it's true

If you take robertson he has played over 240 crosses this season from 31 games which is about 8 per game, if he manages just 28 crosses from the last 7 matches he would have doubled the amount of crosses he made compared to the 2018/9 season

I'm not so sure our fullbacks have been as defensive/cautious as people are suggesting. I think part of reason is teams might be responding to what are doing better, trent's crossing success in particular has dropped from 29% in that season to 19% this season, it could be that teams have stopped trying to stop the cross and focus on defending narrow are just trusting their ability to deal with it.

Those are interesting stats, and yeh I agree it presents a phenomenon that our crossing game isn't as effective at breaking down the opposition as the past, due to their low block defending. Which ties in with what is seen on the pitch. 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Did we steam roll the bus parkers in 19/20? I remember we won alot of games by one goal margins, and it was our defence that won us games not our attack. We did steamroll them in 18/19 tho, lots of 3-0, 4-0 type of wins.

2018/2019 - 89 goals scored
10 games with a victory margin of 1 goal
10 games with a victory margin of 2 goals
10 games with a victory margin of 3 goals plus

2019/2020 - 85 goals scored [keeping in mind the league title was clinched as it early as it was, we took our break off the gas naturally]
13 games won with a difference of 1 goal
11 games won with a difference of 2 goals
8 games won with a difference of 3 goals plus

that's hardly a significant difference. Keeping in mind again, that we fought for the title until the last match of the season in 18/19, so we couldn't let off until the end where as we strolled our way with how many games to go last season?

[Wengerpresser101]

2018/2019 - 89 goals scored
10 games with a victory margin of 1 goal
10 games with a victory margin of 2 goals
10 games with a victory margin of 3 goals plus

2019/2020 - 85 goals scored [keeping in mind the league title was clinched as it early as it was, we took our break off the gas naturally]
13 games won with a difference of 1 goal
11 games won with a difference of 2 goals
8 games won with a difference of 3 goals plus

that's hardly a significant difference. Keeping in mind again, that we fought for the title until the last match of the season in 18/19, so we couldn't let off until the end where as we strolled our way with how many games to go last season?

Did you change it halfway through? Was typing a reply and suddenly the numbers changed lol.

But ok if it's based off the latest then yeh it looks pretty similar. I think that the front 3 collective output did decline compared to 17/18 and 18/19, so we probably got the goals from other areas in the team like Van Dijk or Matip on set pieces etc.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Did you change it halfway through? Was typing a reply and suddenly the numbers changed lol.

But ok if it's based off the latest then yeh it looks pretty similar. I think that the front 3 collective output did decline compared to 17/18 and 18/19, so we probably got the goals from other areas in the team like Van Dijk or Matip on set pieces etc.

I updated it as I was skimming through it while working 

We definitely got more goals from the defenders and midfielders lasts season, in fact double more than we have this year.

I'm not going to use 17/18 to compare the following two seasons as teams changed how they played against us after that season. Salah also outperformed [as did Firmino compared to his usual averages].