Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1076778 times)

Offline chrisevry

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4840 on: March 8, 2021, 10:12:56 am »
Just posted this on the match thread, but probably better suited here, so apologies in advance for the duplication:

There's an awful lot of talk on here about players at the moment, specifically the second string, all of whom are doing their best. The common theme seems to be that their best isn't good enough (and results suggest this too), which proves that this season is mainly a car crash due to our injuries. However, I think there is a more pressing issue (no pun intended) that has been coming for over 12 months now.

Teams have worked us out.

Last season in the league Trent and Robbo shared 25 assists. Mo provided 10, Bobby 8 and Sadio 7. This season the fullbacks have a mere 8 between them, Bobby 5 and Mo and Sadio 3 each.

Now if you take a look at the teams we have lost to (or struggled against) this season, the majority have played 3 centre backs who defend deep, so no room for Mo and Sadio in behind. They have played 'wingbacks' who effectively man mark Trent and Robbo, which makes sense given the assists they ordinarily provide.

Last season our midfielders provided 15 assists all season, shared between 7 players (Gini was NOT one of them) and they have only contributed just 6 this season. Joel Matip has more assists in the league this season than any Liverpool midfielder.

For an opposition Manager this is kinda simple. Stop the full backs and Mo and Sadio and let the midfield toil with the ball. I'm not saying this hasn't been tried before, but a fully decked out, rampaging Liverpool team, hunting in packs and winning the ball high up negates this and has blown teams away previously.

For me this is a bigger issue for the current malaise and Jurgen needs to come up with away to combat this. Maybe Thiago was part of this plan, but with Fabinho and Hendo having to play centre back for much of the season, this hasn't had time to been implemented. At the moment it feel like the definition of insanity from a tactical point of view. I'd be inclined to switch to a more attack minded 4231 for the rest of the season and see what happens. Spring some surprises, keep the oppositions guessing, be inventive. Cos the tried an tested 433 has been found out.

Offline clinical

  • incision required - a bad case of an urgent rawkectomy? "And of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4841 on: March 8, 2021, 10:16:35 am »
Just posted this on the match thread, but probably better suited here, so apologies in advance for the duplication:

There's an awful lot of talk on here about players at the moment, specifically the second string, all of whom are doing their best. The common theme seems to be that their best isn't good enough (and results suggest this too), which proves that this season is mainly a car crash due to our injuries. However, I think there is a more pressing issue (no pun intended) that has been coming for over 12 months now.

Teams have worked us out.

Last season in the league Trent and Robbo shared 25 assists. Mo provided 10, Bobby 8 and Sadio 7. This season the fullbacks have a mere 8 between them, Bobby 5 and Mo and Sadio 3 each.

Now if you take a look at the teams we have lost to (or struggled against) this season, the majority have played 3 centre backs who defend deep, so no room for Mo and Sadio in behind. They have played 'wingbacks' who effectively man mark Trent and Robbo, which makes sense given the assists they ordinarily provide.

Last season our midfielders provided 15 assists all season, shared between 7 players (Gini was NOT one of them) and they have only contributed just 6 this season. Joel Matip has more assists in the league this season than any Liverpool midfielder.

For an opposition Manager this is kinda simple. Stop the full backs and Mo and Sadio and let the midfield toil with the ball. I'm not saying this hasn't been tried before, but a fully decked out, rampaging Liverpool team, hunting in packs and winning the ball high up negates this and has blown teams away previously.

For me this is a bigger issue for the current malaise and Jurgen needs to come up with away to combat this. Maybe Thiago was part of this plan, but with Fabinho and Hendo having to play centre back for much of the season, this hasn't had time to been implemented. At the moment it feel like the definition of insanity from a tactical point of view. I'd be inclined to switch to a more attack minded 4231 for the rest of the season and see what happens. Spring some surprises, keep the oppositions guessing, be inventive. Cos the tried an tested 433 has been found out.

4-2-3-1 would make the most sense to me. Mane on the right, Jota on the left. Bobby as no.10 and Salah upfront.

Gini/Thiago with Fabinho in midfield. Kabak and Phillips/Davies cb.

Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline chrisevry

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4842 on: March 8, 2021, 10:27:56 am »
4-2-3-1 would make the most sense to me. Mane on the right, Jota on the left. Bobby as no.10 and Salah upfront.

Gini/Thiago with Fabinho in midfield. Kabak and Phillips/Davies cb.

We played this set up for one game this season already. Hendo and Gini were in midfield with Fab at cb with Gomez. Sheffield Utd at Home. We won 2-1 and it kind of worked, but he hasn't tried it since I don't think?

We had 17 shots and they had 13 so showed the pros and cons of that system I suppose...

Offline SteveLFC

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4843 on: March 8, 2021, 10:42:28 am »
Yes the summer of 2019 when we raised £47m in player sales and spent nothing. When we were probably the most attractive side in Europe but decided to recruit no one. The summer of 2019 when Klopp lauded Fernandes before we played them in a pre-season friendly.

Since the summer of 2019 how many trophies have we won compared to Man Utd with Fernandes in the team? Some people have short memories. This club was close to administration 10 years ago and FSG came in and transformed us into one of Europes elite clubs again. They have done so while balancing the books which is nothing short of sensational.

I am 100% sure that they are fully aware of what the club needs for next season and because of the way we operate I am 100% certain the processes are already underway to make it happen. If that means selling a few players then I also 100% sure that this is the best thing for us as a club as well. No player is bigger than the club.

Who seriously would prefer the soulless policies of the sugar daddy clubs like City or Chelsea? The fact that our beautiful club has a soul, and has truly passionate supporters, and with owners who understand and nurture this, should be applauded!

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,160
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4844 on: March 8, 2021, 11:01:39 am »
We played this set up for one game this season already. Hendo and Gini were in midfield with Fab at cb with Gomez. Sheffield Utd at Home. We won 2-1 and it kind of worked, but he hasn't tried it since I don't think?

We had 17 shots and they had 13 so showed the pros and cons of that system I suppose...

We played it against Man City away as well

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4845 on: March 8, 2021, 11:11:12 am »
We played this set up for one game this season already. Hendo and Gini were in midfield with Fab at cb with Gomez. Sheffield Utd at Home. We won 2-1 and it kind of worked, but he hasn't tried it since I don't think?

We had 17 shots and they had 13 so showed the pros and cons of that system I suppose...
We've been playing a sort of hybrid in recent games.

Early phases of possession, one fullback pushes on (Robertson in previous games, Neco yesterday); the other (Trent previously, Robertson yesterday) holds and tucks in a little. The wide forward on the opposite side of the advanced fullback (Salah previously, Jota yesterday) stays wide, the other (Mane/Shaqiri) tucks in. Of the three midfielders, one (Jones/Keita) pushes up ahead of the ball; the other two (Gini plus Thiago or Milner) become an orthodox (and rather static) midfield two.

So, with yesterday's starting personnel, kind of like this in early possession (flipped with different personnel for the previous couple of games):

Salah

Jota                         Shaqiri        ^

Keita          .
.                                            Williams

Wijnaldum        Milner

Robertson                                       .
v            Williams          Phillips
         


As play develops, the idea seems to be to transition to:

Jota             Salah

Robertson                  Shaqiri              Williams
^                    .
Keita             Milner

Wijnaldum
Williams                  Phillips


Milner (Thiago) pushes on a little, Keita (Jones) get on the ball deep inside the opposition half, the 'hang wide' forward tucking in as the more cautious fullback gets higher, Wijnaldum protecting the back two.

That change in transitional shape seems promising enough, in theory - and it is the 'try something different' that people have been calling for: it's just not been working very well in practice. The key questions are probably what's not working in doing it? And I think we need to get beyond the 'suicidal high line' and quality of the centre backs stuff, because that's actually not what is preventing us scoring goals from open play.

In my view;

- The Jones/Keita role is too far ahead of play, too early in possession; in conjunction with this, the ball is being moved too slowly and too laterally by the midfield two, in particular. It's been noticeable that most of our vertical passing (good or bad) from deep recently has been from a centre back rather than one of the two.

- Similarly, in later phases, the front five - sometimes six, including one of the central midfielders - have pushed on ahead of the ball but become static. There's little movement; virtually no vertical movement at all. Keita provided the perfect example yesterday: midway in Fulham's half, on the ball looking up with his arms outstretched because all he could see ahead of him was a straight line of Liverpool players standing still.

Partly, this is nerves and desperation. But also I think it's primarily the slow pace of passing, of that early phase of possession developing to the latter stage; players move in the build up, but then find themselves up against the defensive line, with the ball still being recycled across the back, and stand still.

There's not enough movement from forwards, either dropping off to offer passing angles, or sharp runs across defenders to create holes. There's not enough movement from midfielders from deep, running beyond the attackers (Oxlade at least offered this when subbed in the previous game, but his runs were generally ignored).

Fabinho in the role Wijnaldum has been playing will help; he's a little braver in his vertical passing, and more effective against a counter attack. Wijnaldum (at anything close to his best) is probably an improvement on the function Thiago/Milner have been providing. It would be nice perhaps to see both Jones and Keita on the pitch at the same time, against PL dross at least.

An issue still to be resolved is that ideally, if the Jones/Keita role is going to be the one that gets on the ball and 'makes things happen', the Thiago/Milner one, ideally, should be the one which can run beyond the forwards and score a goal occasionally. The international Wijnaldum, or the 17/18 Oxlade.

« Last Edit: March 8, 2021, 11:27:25 am by redmark »
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,061
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4846 on: March 8, 2021, 11:20:11 am »
Since the summer of 2019 how many trophies have we won compared to Man Utd with Fernandes in the team? Some people have short memories. This club was close to administration 10 years ago and FSG came in and transformed us into one of Europes elite clubs again. They have done so while balancing the books which is nothing short of sensational.

I am 100% sure that they are fully aware of what the club needs for next season and because of the way we operate I am 100% certain the processes are already underway to make it happen. If that means selling a few players then I also 100% sure that this is the best thing for us as a club as well. No player is bigger than the club.

Who seriously would prefer the soulless policies of the sugar daddy clubs like City or Chelsea? The fact that our beautiful club has a soul, and has truly passionate supporters, and with owners who understand and nurture this, should be applauded!
Tired of reading variations on this blather in thread after thread in the last year or two, as if we didn't break the British transfer record for Dalglish, Beardsley and Collymore. As if we didn't spend our way out of the second division back in the sixties. As if the act of being competitive in the transfer market should be reserved for 'soulless clubs'. Reading this, you'd think we were Athletic Bilbao, playing with a team of scousers for our entire history.

Still, we haven't spent money in the last few windows so you've essentially got what you want now. I hope you're enjoying it.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,160
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4847 on: March 8, 2021, 11:23:07 am »

Still, we haven't spent money in the last few windows so you've essentially got what you want now. I hope you're enjoying it.

Were Jota, Davies and Tsimikas free were they?

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4848 on: March 8, 2021, 11:23:53 am »
Tired of reading variations on this blather in thread after thread in the last year or two, as if we didn't break the British transfer record for Dalglish, Beardsley and Collymore. As if we didn't spend our way out of the second division back in the sixties. As if the act of being competitive in the transfer market should be reserved for 'soulless clubs'. Reading this, you'd think we were Athletic Bilbao, playing with a team of scousers for our entire history.

Still, we haven't spent money in the last few windows so you've essentially got what you want now. I hope you're enjoying it.
With money generated by the club; as we do now. The difference is not that FSG 'spend less' than we did in the glory days; it's that back then there were no oil sheikhs and Russian money launderers throwing billions at our competitors.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Wengerpresser101

  • 8 posts in, could be RAWK’s greatest ever contributor. 248 posts in, the jury's still out......It's a fax he's a dickhead. Still the Greatest Fan of L...sorry...AFC there's EVER been!
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 783
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4849 on: March 8, 2021, 11:26:23 am »
Just posted this on the match thread, but probably better suited here, so apologies in advance for the duplication:

There's an awful lot of talk on here about players at the moment, specifically the second string, all of whom are doing their best. The common theme seems to be that their best isn't good enough (and results suggest this too), which proves that this season is mainly a car crash due to our injuries. However, I think there is a more pressing issue (no pun intended) that has been coming for over 12 months now.

Teams have worked us out.

Last season in the league Trent and Robbo shared 25 assists. Mo provided 10, Bobby 8 and Sadio 7. This season the fullbacks have a mere 8 between them, Bobby 5 and Mo and Sadio 3 each.

Now if you take a look at the teams we have lost to (or struggled against) this season, the majority have played 3 centre backs who defend deep, so no room for Mo and Sadio in behind. They have played 'wingbacks' who effectively man mark Trent and Robbo, which makes sense given the assists they ordinarily provide.

Last season our midfielders provided 15 assists all season, shared between 7 players (Gini was NOT one of them) and they have only contributed just 6 this season. Joel Matip has more assists in the league this season than any Liverpool midfielder.

For an opposition Manager this is kinda simple. Stop the full backs and Mo and Sadio and let the midfield toil with the ball. I'm not saying this hasn't been tried before, but a fully decked out, rampaging Liverpool team, hunting in packs and winning the ball high up negates this and has blown teams away previously.

For me this is a bigger issue for the current malaise and Jurgen needs to come up with away to combat this. Maybe Thiago was part of this plan, but with Fabinho and Hendo having to play centre back for much of the season, this hasn't had time to been implemented. At the moment it feel like the definition of insanity from a tactical point of view. I'd be inclined to switch to a more attack minded 4231 for the rest of the season and see what happens. Spring some surprises, keep the oppositions guessing, be inventive. Cos the tried an tested 433 has been found out.
Yeh agree with this.

I'd also add to this by mentioning that I think alot of our key players look mentally exhausted as well as physically exhausted. Which results in them performing to like, say, a quarter of their true ability. Combine this with the phenomenon that teams have worked out our patterns of play (crosses, direct football, possession), and we get the current situation.

I think a good rest would benefit alot of our players, and maybe psychologists or people knowledgeable about the mental side of things can recommend ways to fix mental exhaustion. I'm not a psychologist but from personal experience rest helped alot with mental exhaustion, but more than that, having something to look forward to helped too. In that case getting new personell in might help too, so our players have something to look forward to, that and fans being back in the stadium.

As for the teams having worked us out, I agree with that too, which was why I mentioned above that figured it would be good to bring in a new coach to implement new patterns of play, along with of course our current coaching staff changing our playing style.

Tactically speaking, (hypothetically), I think one possible good switch would be if we lessened our creativity reliance on our full backs, and increase our creativity reliance on our midfield, while also having runners from midfield. Another possible good switch would be if we utilized a proper out and out goalscorer to score goals. So in that sense, maybe a 4-1-2-1-2 or a 4-2-3-1 would be possible good switches.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,628
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4850 on: March 8, 2021, 11:27:27 am »
Tired of reading variations on this blather in thread after thread in the last year or two, as if we didn't break the British transfer record for Dalglish, Beardsley and Collymore. As if we didn't spend our way out of the second division back in the sixties. As if the act of being competitive in the transfer market should be reserved for 'soulless clubs'. Reading this, you'd think we were Athletic Bilbao, playing with a team of scousers for our entire history.

Still, we haven't spent money in the last few windows so you've essentially got what you want now. I hope you're enjoying it.

Whatever has happened in the past the fact is that they have to spend this summer, be it against future earnings by way of a loan or whatever. We have some incredible players out on the pitch yesterday, some incredible players injured and the golden ticket in the dugout. We cannot allow that to just pass due to some misguided principles at this stage.

Offline B0151?

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,141
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4851 on: March 8, 2021, 11:31:19 am »
I'm not really a defender of FSG but I honestly think they're still learning on the job. I have questions over how much they care about us challenging, and how much they just need us in the CL... But I hope this has made them realise, the only guarantee of being in the CL is if you're challenging.

I don't think anyone criticizing FSG thinks we should be financially competing with Man City. We've just been too slack in some areas and it's ultimately cost us in a big way.

But I do think they can learn from this. Simply because it will have been such a costly, avoidable mistake.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,061
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4852 on: March 8, 2021, 11:33:26 am »
With regards to the main topic, our current defenders aren't fast or defensively aware enough to play a high line so there seems little point sticking with it.

I think it might be worth playing Fabinho as a defacto third defender to stop the through ball and go with two midfielders who can advance the ball quickly. Having Keita fit should help with that. But stopping the ball over the top needs to be first priority.

Next season, we need to look at getting a better goal threat in at number nine, and possibly moving Bobby into midfield. There just isn't enough of a danger in the middle right now.

Offline clinical

  • incision required - a bad case of an urgent rawkectomy? "And of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4853 on: March 8, 2021, 11:34:35 am »
I'm not really a defender of FSG but I honestly think they're still learning on the job. I have questions over how much they care about us challenging, and how much they just need us in the CL... But I hope this has made them realise, the only guarantee of being in the CL is if you're challenging.

I don't think anyone criticizing FSG thinks we should be financially competing with Man City. We've just been too slack in some areas and it's ultimately cost us in a big way.

But I do think they can learn from this. Simply because it will have been such a costly, avoidable mistake.

They got cocky after ucl win and probably thought they were proved right by winning the league last year. The bad thing about that was we had/have amazing 14 players or so but outside of that it's pretty poor meaning those 14 or so were ran into the ground. Summer 2019 was the biggest mistake longterm. Was a perfect opportunity to get a Jota type player then. I think Firmino and Mane drop offs are because they have played so much over last few years because the back up was Origi. 
« Last Edit: March 8, 2021, 11:39:25 am by clinical »
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline clinical

  • incision required - a bad case of an urgent rawkectomy? "And of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4854 on: March 8, 2021, 11:36:44 am »
With regards to the main topic, our current defenders aren't fast or defensively aware enough to play a high line so there seems little point sticking with it.

I think it might be worth playing Fabinho as a defacto third defender to stop the through ball and go with two midfielders who can advance the ball quickly. Having Keita fit should help with that. But stopping the ball over the top needs to be first priority.

Next season, we need to look at getting a better goal threat in at number nine, and possibly moving Bobby into midfield. There just isn't enough of a danger in the middle right now.

We don't have the players right now for a high line and we don't have the midfielders for a counter attacking side either. We're pretty much in limbo until Van Dijk and Gomez are back.

Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline paulrazor

  • Dreams of a handjob from Timmy Mallett. Chronicler of seasons past. Cares more than Prelude Nr 5, or does he? No chance of getting a banana at his house.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,692
  • Take me 2 the magic of the moment on a glory night
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4855 on: March 8, 2021, 11:40:53 am »
We don't have the players right now for a high line and we don't have the midfielders for a counter attacking side either. We're pretty much in limbo until Van Dijk and Gomez are back.


and until then a lot of damage is being done, effect of which may be irreversible and may require an overhaul of the squad
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,628
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4856 on: March 8, 2021, 11:42:50 am »
and until then a lot of damage is being done, effect of which may be irreversible and may require an overhaul of the squad

I don't see why, a bit of fresh blood, some players coming back should help to breed a bit more confidence.

Offline clinical

  • incision required - a bad case of an urgent rawkectomy? "And of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4857 on: March 8, 2021, 11:45:01 am »
and until then a lot of damage is being done, effect of which may be irreversible and may require an overhaul of the squad

The worry for us. Is no one will pay big money for our players in this market. Secondly our owners won't pump money in. I do fear if we don't correct it next season it's going to be a long way back for us. That's my biggest fear. The squad will be aging then.
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4858 on: March 8, 2021, 11:49:22 am »
and until then a lot of damage is being done, effect of which may be irreversible and may require an overhaul of the squad
The vast majority of the 'damage' isn't being caused by the defence, let alone specifically any unsuitability to play the high line.

We've scored 4 goals in 7 games. Just 2, in 8 home games. That has virtually nothing to do with a couple of centre backs who didn't play in most of those games.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline naYoRHa2b

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,801
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4859 on: March 8, 2021, 12:08:03 pm »
Klopp elevated alot of these players beyond what many thought was possible. His personality, his system was successful. Since day one he talked about bringing teams down to our level, making life difficult for them. He knew that man for man we weren't the most naturally gifted against some teams but he knew the strength of belief and the thing that was more effective than any one player and that being the system and finding the right combination of players which would fit. These players in this system are not effective right now and neither look like changing any time soon.

Online JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,003
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4860 on: March 8, 2021, 12:24:16 pm »
The vast majority of the 'damage' isn't being caused by the defence, let alone specifically any unsuitability to play the high line.

We've scored 4 goals in 7 games. Just 2, in 8 home games. That has virtually nothing to do with a couple of centre backs who didn't play in most of those games.

A lot of it is. 'virtually nothing' is misunderstanding how the team was built

Our system that won us the league used almost no ball progression through midfield - which is incredibly rare for a top team.
Our chances were created against low block teams mainly through an ability to press higher than other teams, constrict space and either force errors or chances through winning the ball back super high up the pitch or devivering from wide against non-set defences

Without pace at centre back and the 6 we a) haven't been able to press as high as usual to create more pressure on the ball and b) commit both full backs to being extra attackers to create overloads

As a result we've spent the last 2 months trapped in tactical hell where we want to protect our weaknesses at the back while still trying to press high and still not having the personnel to do any of it
So against low block teams now we're not creating the over loads we were in previous seasons high up the pitch and when we do try and attack we've often been chasing the game and facing two banks of 5 and a team who won't play through midfield at all.

Oh and while we're at it we've run really bad too - so we're not creating as much in the first place and on top of that simultaneously never hitting a great finish / getting lucky deflections / having keepers not impersonate Buffon 

You can critique Klopp and the training team for not changing how we play - but the way he builds teams and systems I think he'd argue that without extensive time on the training pitch (ie a pre season) to drill a new system it was never going to be his response to throw out what he'd worked with them on for 3 or 4 years
« Last Edit: March 8, 2021, 12:25:58 pm by JackWard33 »

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,628
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4861 on: March 8, 2021, 12:28:09 pm »
For me the most important thing is that Klopp and the players allow all this to be water off a duck's back. Personally I would prefer them to not give a fuck about whats happening and just be determined to let people know how good they are after a proper pre-season and some players back, as well as one or two improvements.

Offline stonecold_jpm

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,152
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4862 on: March 8, 2021, 12:32:30 pm »
The tide turned yesterday as soon as Fabinho came on, instantly he’s winning the ball higher up and our forwards get a quicker ball and we’re on the front foot in broken play which they thrive on. First sign of putting more trust in the centre backs.

The team that finished the match with more attacking threats on goal never loses that game and wins it 90% of the time. Hopefully that’s the penny dropped and Jurgen has realised this too. We 100% will see this on Wednesday.

Offline Jookie

  • Ruptures, then repairs the tears
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,717
  • Muted Al 666's posts for my own sanity
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4863 on: March 8, 2021, 12:33:26 pm »
A lot of it is. 'virtually nothing' is misunderstanding how the team was built

Our system that won us the league used almost no ball progression through midfield - which is incredibly rare for a top team.
Our chances were created against low block teams mainly through an ability to press higher than other teams, constrict space and either force errors or chances through winning the ball back super high up the pitch or devivering from wide against non-set defences

Without pace at centre back and the 6 we a) haven't been able to press as high as usual to create more pressure on the ball and b) commit both full backs to being extra attackers to create overloads

As a result we've spent the last 2 months trapped in tactical hell where we want to protect our weaknesses at the back while still trying to press high and still not having the personnel to do any of it
So against low block teams now we're not creating the over loads we were in previous seasons high up the pitch and when we do try and attack we've often been chasing the game and facing two banks of 5 and a team who won't play through midfield at all.

Oh and while we're at it we've run really bad too - so we're not creating as much in the first place and on top of that simultaneously never hitting a great finish / getting lucky deflections / having keepers not impersonate Buffon 

You can critique Klopp and the training team for not changing how we play - but the way he builds teams and systems I think he'd argue that without extensive time on the training pitch (ie a pre season) to drill a new system it was never going to be his response to throw out what he'd worked with them on for 3 or 4 years

I agree with all of this and I've previously raised doubts about changing system (to 5 at the back midseason).

What I would say is that tactical adjustments Klopp has made to the current set up haven't worked. Even if they are tweaks to protect the defence. After scoring 2 goals in 8 home league games, surely we should throw some caution to the wind. That doesn't mean playing a new system but playing the system that got us success in all it's glory (i know it's easier said than done with the ability of the current centre backs both on and off the ball). Put Fabinho centre mid, push up the pitch and allow full backs to attack. We might get whacked a few games but we'd definitely score more and therefore have more chance of winning.

So whilst I agree that moving to a whole new system midseason is unlikely possible, I'm still perplexed that we have adjusted so poorly to the changes in personnel at the back.
I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,160
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4864 on: March 8, 2021, 12:55:59 pm »
The tide turned yesterday as soon as Fabinho came on, instantly he’s winning the ball higher up and our forwards get a quicker ball and we’re on the front foot in broken play which they thrive on. First sign of putting more trust in the centre backs.

The team that finished the match with more attacking threats on goal never loses that game and wins it 90% of the time. Hopefully that’s the penny dropped and Jurgen has realised this too. We 100% will see this on Wednesday.

Yep, although I think he will play him in defence in Europe midweek, in the league he must start in midfield

Offline B0151?

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,141
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4865 on: March 8, 2021, 01:55:54 pm »
Yep, although I think he will play him in defence in Europe midweek, in the league he must start in midfield
It's an interesting one. Thiago and Jones will probably start, but if Fab starts at CB that probably means Gini again and he could really do with a rest

Offline palimpsest

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4866 on: March 8, 2021, 01:59:07 pm »
It's an interesting one. Thiago and Jones will probably start, but if Fab starts at CB that probably means Gini again and he could really do with a rest

I get tired just by looking at Gini. God knows where we would have been without him but he really, really needs a breather. Seeing Fab/Thiago/Jones or Fab/Thiago/Keita later on would be interesting.
We had dreams and songs to sing...

Offline B0151?

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,141
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4867 on: March 8, 2021, 02:04:29 pm »
I get tired just by looking at Gini. God knows where we would have been without him but he really, really needs a breather. Seeing Fab/Thiago/Jones or Fab/Thiago/Keita later on would be interesting.
Actually forgot we had Keita then. I suppose we might play Thiago at 6. He didn't look the best fhere but must better than a knackered Gini surely.

Offline palimpsest

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4868 on: March 8, 2021, 02:06:47 pm »
Actually forgot we had Keita then. I suppose we might play Thiago at 6. He didn't look the best fhere but must better than a knackered Gini surely.

Might look a whole lot better with Fab next to him.
We had dreams and songs to sing...

Online JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,003
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4869 on: March 8, 2021, 02:08:35 pm »
I agree with all of this and I've previously raised doubts about changing system (to 5 at the back midseason).

What I would say is that tactical adjustments Klopp has made to the current set up haven't worked. Even if they are tweaks to protect the defence. After scoring 2 goals in 8 home league games, surely we should throw some caution to the wind. That doesn't mean playing a new system but playing the system that got us success in all it's glory (i know it's easier said than done with the ability of the current centre backs both on and off the ball). Put Fabinho centre mid, push up the pitch and allow full backs to attack. We might get whacked a few games but we'd definitely score more and therefore have more chance of winning.

So whilst I agree that moving to a whole new system midseason is unlikely possible, I'm still perplexed that we have adjusted so poorly to the changes in personnel at the back.

I think that's probably fair and I think I've posted similar myself... but we never have the universe where a few things don't go quite as catastrophically badly as they have (Henderson doesn't get injured on top of all the others, west brom don't score from their only chance, Pope doesn't have a worldie etc etc) up until recently - like the last 3 league games - our xG was fine (not earth shattering but fine considering the situation) so how knows.

I do think the 'high' line is more fundamental to everything this team does than most people / and pundits acknowledge when they suggest the remedy is just not to play one

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4870 on: March 8, 2021, 02:24:43 pm »
A lot of it is. 'virtually nothing' is misunderstanding how the team was built

Our system that won us the league used almost no ball progression through midfield - which is incredibly rare for a top team.
Our chances were created against low block teams mainly through an ability to press higher than other teams, constrict space and either force errors or chances through winning the ball back super high up the pitch or devivering from wide against non-set defences

Without pace at centre back and the 6 we a) haven't been able to press as high as usual to create more pressure on the ball and b) commit both full backs to being extra attackers to create overloads

As a result we've spent the last 2 months trapped in tactical hell where we want to protect our weaknesses at the back while still trying to press high and still not having the personnel to do any of it
So against low block teams now we're not creating the over loads we were in previous seasons high up the pitch and when we do try and attack we've often been chasing the game and facing two banks of 5 and a team who won't play through midfield at all.

Oh and while we're at it we've run really bad too - so we're not creating as much in the first place and on top of that simultaneously never hitting a great finish / getting lucky deflections / having keepers not impersonate Buffon 

You can critique Klopp and the training team for not changing how we play - but the way he builds teams and systems I think he'd argue that without extensive time on the training pitch (ie a pre season) to drill a new system it was never going to be his response to throw out what he'd worked with them on for 3 or 4 years
Yet we haven't dropped the high line - and our fullbacks crossing figures aren't that much down on last year (quantity; quality is significantly down). We're not pressing less because we have two slow centre backs - we're pressing less because we moved our best two midfielders into defence (plus short season, everyone's knackered, intensity stats are down across the PL, etc). Infact, deliberately pressing less because we have slow CBs without dropping the high line would be absolutely mental.

We haven't dropped the line regardless of who's in it - and I think the conclusion that we're not going to, mid season, is accurate. What we have done, but only very recently (well into the bad spell) is for one fullback to be more conservative, and two midfielders to sit - early in passages of possession. But we started doing that in the second half against Everton, not three months ago (which was the last time we won at Anfield).

It was interesting, I think, that Fabinho came on and went to 6. Maybe there's a recognition that the way we reacted to the loss of VVD, Gomez and Matip in the end didn't significantly improve the defence over the alternatives; but significantly weakened the midfield. It seems we're not going to drop the high line midseason (which I'm fine with), but maybe we need to get used to it being rinsed occasionally as the price for getting back to a functioning midfield.
« Last Edit: March 8, 2021, 03:24:39 pm by redmark »
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,935
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4871 on: March 8, 2021, 02:42:27 pm »
A lot of it is. 'virtually nothing' is misunderstanding how the team was built

Our system that won us the league used almost no ball progression through midfield - which is incredibly rare for a top team.
Our chances were created against low block teams mainly through an ability to press higher than other teams, constrict space and either force errors or chances through winning the ball back super high up the pitch or devivering from wide against non-set defences

Without pace at centre back and the 6 we a) haven't been able to press as high as usual to create more pressure on the ball and b) commit both full backs to being extra attackers to create overloads

As a result we've spent the last 2 months trapped in tactical hell where we want to protect our weaknesses at the back while still trying to press high and still not having the personnel to do any of it
So against low block teams now we're not creating the over loads we were in previous seasons high up the pitch and when we do try and attack we've often been chasing the game and facing two banks of 5 and a team who won't play through midfield at all.

Oh and while we're at it we've run really bad too - so we're not creating as much in the first place and on top of that simultaneously never hitting a great finish / getting lucky deflections / having keepers not impersonate Buffon 

You can critique Klopp and the training team for not changing how we play - but the way he builds teams and systems I think he'd argue that without extensive time on the training pitch (ie a pre season) to drill a new system it was never going to be his response to throw out what he'd worked with them on for 3 or 4 years

Hopefully this post doesn't get lost amongst all the anti-FSG posts in this thread.  This is the kind of post this thread, I think, was created for. 

Offline joshlfc94

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4872 on: March 8, 2021, 02:48:06 pm »
Pretty sensible post to be honest. In general, at the end of last season there wasn't a lot of room to improve our first team. We strengthened in all the areas that seemed sensible and the signings themselves weren't bad ones at all. We've had a lot of bad luck and obviously with the benefit of hindsight we can say we "needed this player or that player" etc.
We needed a centre back at the start of the season though nevermind in Jan. The decision to not sign one was pure negligence. We let Lovren go and had only van Dijk, Matip and Gomez as our three senior centre backs. The world knew Matip could not be relied upon as he is very injury prone and Joe (who I love) has had 2 really serious injuries. We essentially lost a defender in Lovren and didn't replace him.

Offline Historical Fool

  • A fool in the present too. The ban on drivel from 666 has led to a remarkable increase in forum quality. Currently being spectacularly wooshed. Seemingly by, well, just about everything.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,498
  • FSG EOTM June ‘23
    • Fenway Sports Group
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4873 on: March 8, 2021, 02:48:40 pm »
Any thoughts on whether bringing Trent and Mane on in the second half was a deliberate ploy to get them facing tired legs? Noticed at least two crosses from Trent created clear chances once they came on. Small detail perhaps overlooked in the post match discussion of the starting eleven - can’t shake the feeling that it was intended.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

Offline SteveLFC

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4874 on: March 8, 2021, 03:35:19 pm »
Tired of reading variations on this blather in thread after thread in the last year or two, as if we didn't break the British transfer record for Dalglish, Beardsley and Collymore. As if we didn't spend our way out of the second division back in the sixties. As if the act of being competitive in the transfer market should be reserved for 'soulless clubs'. Reading this, you'd think we were Athletic Bilbao, playing with a team of scousers for our entire history.

Still, we haven't spent money in the last few windows so you've essentially got what you want now. I hope you're enjoying it.

A champions league, world club championships, premier league in the last couple of years is pretty good for a club that spends no money. A drop in our fortunes for all the multitude of reasons only serves to fuel the bedwetters sadly. So yes, as a fan of over 45 years, I am enjoying it but I am also frustrated like everyone in the drop-off in form. That's fucking football though mate.

Rather than act like a spoilt kid who can't get what he wants, get behind the boss.

Online HeartAndSoul

  • OneWillBurn
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,261
  • RedOrDead
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4875 on: March 8, 2021, 03:40:44 pm »
Agreed with the shouts of playing a system that suits our current player. It’s mental that we’re asking the likes of Phillips Williams and kabak to play on the half way line when lack of pace is one of their biggest problem. It’s fine playing like that if you’ve got a Virgil or Gomez there partnering them but asking them to play like that against Werner for example was just sheer stupidity where it was just a matter of when he’ll be through on goals. Mount goal came as a result of bad defending and one long over the top ball as well.

Offline SteveLFC

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4876 on: March 8, 2021, 03:41:54 pm »
The tide turned yesterday as soon as Fabinho came on, instantly he’s winning the ball higher up and our forwards get a quicker ball and we’re on the front foot in broken play which they thrive on. First sign of putting more trust in the centre backs.

The team that finished the match with more attacking threats on goal never loses that game and wins it 90% of the time. Hopefully that’s the penny dropped and Jurgen has realised this too. We 100% will see this on Wednesday.

He certainly gave us a bit of a lift for the first few minutes and for a second there it felt like we were quicker in the transition with him. Too little too late for this match though sadly.

Offline eeekaj

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4877 on: March 8, 2021, 03:45:29 pm »
Controversial (maybe) but I'd like to see this formation at some point (based on current injuries):

                           Alisson

               Kabak   Phillips   Fabinho

Trent                                                Robertson
                    Thiago      Keita

                            Mane
                 Salah              Jota


Let Trent and Robbo have more freedom with a back 3 behind them, get Thiago in a midfield 2 (which he played often at Bayern) and move Mane into a more central role allowing Jota and Salah to play behind.

Offline SteveLFC

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 915
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4878 on: March 8, 2021, 04:01:41 pm »
Controversial (maybe) but I'd like to see this formation at some point (based on current injuries):

                           Alisson

               Kabak   Phillips   Fabinho

Trent                                                Robertson
                    Thiago      Keita

                            Mane
                 Salah              Jota


Let Trent and Robbo have more freedom with a back 3 behind them, get Thiago in a midfield 2 (which he played often at Bayern) and move Mane into a more central role allowing Jota and Salah to play behind.

Might be worth a try but to be successful with a 3-5-2, you need CB's who are athletic and quick to cover the wing positions. A lot of goals against us recently have come from long balls bypassing the midfield into the path of the opposition's forwards on the wings. This would still negate the positives of having an overloaded midfield. It does have its positives as well though in that with the possession we can control the midfield and probably create more chances.

Offline eeekaj

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #4879 on: March 8, 2021, 04:06:35 pm »
Might be worth a try but to be successful with a 3-5-2, you need CB's who are athletic and quick to cover the wing positions. A lot of goals against us recently have come from long balls bypassing the midfield into the path of the opposition's forwards on the wings. This would still negate the positives of having an overloaded midfield. It does have its positives as well though in that with the possession we can control the midfield and probably create more chances.

Agreed, it would work really well actually with a back 3 of maybe Henderson/Gomez/VVD, but unfortunately we are with what we have now.

I just feel like Mane seems isolated out wide at the moment and that Trent/Robbo can provide the needed width without having to worry AS MUCH about what's behind them.