Topic: The King's Speech: His conferences and interviews here

[R.A.La]

without dragging up posts from years ago, them people who say or have said for years that we sometimes have a chip on our shoulder and we get treated just the same as everyone else, do you want to talk? Come on - lets talk.

We can't though can we? I mean it's like the elephant in the room.

If we talk about it we just sound bitter and it's not "The Liverpool Way"

I honestly think we have been fucked over by refs for a long time now. We look forward to the game all week then the ref is announced. We all know who they are, we are constantly reffed by the same old faces and we know before a ball is kicked that we going to be on the end of the same old shite decisions.

I said before the season had kicked off, that the biggest threat to any ambition we may have this season will be the refs, and so far they are living up to my very low expectations of them.

Still, best just keep our gobs shut and get on with it eh?

[Em5y]

Kenny knows full well talking to the owners about Refs is pointless, he is just doing what Ferguson has done for years.  With Kenny's comments on referees and the whole Capello/Carroll thing from last week you can guarantee that the King in the dressing room is creating one of those LFC versus the world attitudes, it'll create a bond and then the next time we come up against a bellend of a referee like him yesterday, you can guarantee the players will try twice as hard to overcome him and batter the opposition.

Ferguson has been doing it for years, I'm glad to see Kenny pulling the same stunts.

[schmev]

Kenny knows full well talking to the owners about Refs is pointless, he is just doing what Ferguson has done for years.  With Kenny's comments on referees and the whole Capello/Carroll thing from last week you can guarantee that the King in the dressing room is creating one of those LFC versus the world attitudes, it'll create a bond and then the next time we come up against a bellend of a referee like him yesterday, you can guarantee the players will try twice as hard to overcome him and batter the opposition.

Ferguson has been doing it for years, I'm glad to see Kenny pulling the same stunts.

I think you've nailed it.  I can't explain how the balls didn't go into the net yesterday.  It was a domination. 

The players know they played well enough to win, but for some really bad luck and decisions.  And the manager is behind them for this one.  But I hope it's just this one.  Because there's no excuse for wallowing in your sorrows when there is much to be achieved.  Dalglish knows this, he's played his card well, but the card is gone.  He's supported the players for a game of bad luck.

I'm not sure how Kenny Dalglish does it;  he seemingly speaks for us without effort. 

[Rafas3leggedtable]

We can't though can we? I mean it's like the elephant in the room.

If we talk about it we just sound bitter and it's not "The Liverpool Way"

I honestly think we have been fucked over by refs for a long time now. We look forward to the game all week then the ref is announced. We all know who they are, we are constantly reffed by the same old faces and we know before a ball is kicked that we going to be on the end of the same old shite decisions.

I said before the season had kicked off, that the biggest threat to any ambition we may have this season will be the refs, and so far they are living up to my very low expectations of them.

Still, best just keep our gobs shut and get on with it eh?

and here we go, no disrespect mate becuase i agree with you but why cant be nasty bastards? Take the piss perhaps? Be arrogant? Wouldnt want it to be honest - wouldnt be liverpool would it? Saying that - nice guys these days dont win often.

[Carra-ton]

I have been saying it for years now, the English refereeing standards are poorer than anything anywhere else. It is so pathetic the referees' reading of a game that if they were in any other profession they would be dismissed 5 performance reviews in. Here, I am not even sure if they have a performance review.

I have had length discussions with friends on these, where they said I was paranoid, but if Kenny is frustrated by this, he hasn't seen anything yet. Wait till Howard Webb pulls one out of the bag.

[uwinsa]

I have been saying it for years now, the English refereeing standards are poorer than anything anywhere else. It is so pathetic the referees' reading of a game that if they were in any other profession they would be dismissed 5 performance reviews in. Here, I am not even sure if they have a performance review.
I have had length discussions with friends on these, where they said I was paranoid, but if Kenny is frustrated by this, he hasn't seen anything yet. Wait till Howard Webb pulls one out of the bag.

First bit I read somewhere (can't remeber where now) that refs in england are payed much much less than the other big leagues in Europe, I wonder how much of an impact that has?

Second bit yes they do but i'm not sure if it's called that

[Red Beret]

One thing I'll add: I reckon Kenny has already spoken to the owners on the matter and gotten the green light.  There's no way he would mention it if he wasn't 100% sure they would back him on the matter.  Henry wants a level playing field just as much as everybody else connected to LFC.

[Carra-ton]

First bit I read somewhere (can't remeber where now) that refs in england are payed much much less than the other big leagues in Europe, I wonder how much of an impact that has?

Second bit yes they do but i'm not sure if it's called that

Firstly I very much doubt that they are paid less than other places, because of the enormity of the premier league, and even if they are they are way too arrogant in the way they handle matches.

Well if they have performance reviews most of them should have been fired.

[uwinsa]

Firstly I very much doubt that they are paid less than other places, because of the enormity of the premier league, and even if they are they are way too arrogant in the way they handle matches.

Well if they have performance reviews most of them should have been fired.

I'm not argueing with you mate! I'll try and find what I read/saw again

[uwinsa]

This isn't what I read and it's about lines man rather than refs but it's a similar thing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/aug/14/premierleague1

[Torpedo Tommy]

I have been saying it for years now, the English refereeing standards are poorer than anything anywhere else. It is so pathetic the referees' reading of a game that if they were in any other profession they would be dismissed 5 performance reviews in. Here, I am not even sure if they have a performance review.

I have had length discussions with friends on these, where they said I was paranoid, but if Kenny is frustrated by this, he hasn't seen anything yet. Wait till Howard Webb pulls one out of the bag.

Do you think it is poor standard pf refereeing? Honestly?  If I'm a United fan *shudders* then I'm bigging up the referees.

Kenny has already had a dose of Howard Webb - it came approximately 3 minutes into his return at....wait for it.....Old Trafford!

[Camarero25]

and here we go, no disrespect mate becuase i agree with you but why cant be nasty bastards? Take the piss perhaps? Be arrogant? Wouldnt want it to be honest - wouldnt be liverpool would it? Saying that - nice guys these days dont win often.

Mate, to be honest I think I've gone beyond caring whether we're nice or not. If we have to be twats to get the right fucking decisions for once, then so be it. I mean, look at players like Suarez and Bellamy, on the pitch they're right horrible bastards, but they both come across as winners to me, and I don't mind their moaning antics if they can get us more points.

[uwinsa]

Here it is, I know it's goal.com but there facts and figures so even they can't make them up!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/03/04/2378442/revealed-how-much-referees-are-paid-in-each-european-country

[Torpedo Tommy]

Given how they have really strict rules when it comes to managers commenting on referees, I'm sure this is something Kenny's come up with to criticize their decisions without directly saying so. Obviously the owners can do jack shit about it but the way he's worded it has obviously got his message through without being too direct.

I'm not sure that is totally correct. 

It might involve taking the case outside of football which would be highly unpopular, but if I own a company (in this instance Liverpool FC) that contributes to someone/or some organisation's turnover (in this instance the Professional Referee's Association via the FA {I think}) in order for that company to offer a service (refereeing) then surely there must be contracts in place regarding honesty and clarity?

If that company or an employee of that organisation is limiting my company's financial turnover (by poor performance or otherwise) then surely there would be a case against that company? i.e. due to performance issues, termination of that organisations contract or discipline against the individual employee of that organisation (Howard Webb, Clattenberg et al)

[Torpedo Tommy]

The way he worded what he said was extremley clever! He has put pressure on the referee's without really saying anything, i think his comments about talking to the owners is almost looking for permission/back up on deviating from the clubs adherance to the respect campaign.

He is basically saying, if the owners back me, im going on a Mr Alex Ferguson type rant after every game until we get treated like the others clubs who surround the officials at every given oppurtunity, despite it not being the way the club likes to conduct its' self.

I think as others have said we have been to nice and too quiet for years now, we need to get nasty again.

That is how I read it

We have been too quiet.  I've always been dubious about refereeing decisions for the last 20 years.  Call it paranoia or whatever but I'd hate for us to be in with a shout of a league title like we were 2 years ago and then a really dubious decision goes for the team in poll position and hands it on a plate to them.

I'm glad Kenny has come out and said what he has.  You just know that the refs will now think twice about helping Ol Arry out next week

[Carra-ton]

Here it is, I know it's goal.com but there facts and figures so even they can't make them up!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/03/04/2378442/revealed-how-much-referees-are-paid-in-each-european-country

That is pretty rough if true. But, doesn't excuse their incompetence. Still a substantial amount(*EPL referees are paid a retainer of €38,500 per season), add to that some royalties they may be getting plus premier league contract bonuses etc which I am sure would add up to a decent amount.

[callanlfc5times]

Here it is, I know it's goal.com but there facts and figures so even they can't make them up!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/03/04/2378442/revealed-how-much-referees-are-paid-in-each-european-country

Yeah but that obviously doesn't include bribes.

[Fairytale of 2005]

Most officials in the prem are shit and lucky they aren't on minimum wage. It's a bit of a farce how bad some of them are. I refuse to accept they are biased or corrupt in any way, so they must be just shite....there is no other conclussion.

[uwinsa]

That is pretty rough if true. But, doesn't excuse their incompetence. Still a substantial amount(*EPL referees are paid a retainer of €38,500 per season), add to that some royalties they may be getting plus premier league contract bonuses etc which I am sure would add up to a decent amount.

I'm not saying it does excuse it, but it would be interesting to know if it would make a difference. Maths e.t.c. is not my strong point so the bit about retinner fees means nothing im afraid however I gather they still earn a lot more than I do!

[Carra-ton]

Do you think it is poor standard pf refereeing? Honestly?  If I'm a United fan *shudders* then I'm bigging up the referees.

Kenny has already had a dose of Howard Webb - it came approximately 3 minutes into his return at....wait for it.....Old Trafford!

Forget Utd but the rest of the teams know that if they go to a big team's home ground they have zero chance of getting a pen. This is the belief held by managers in the premier league and the first division.
The refs know that a Utd or Chelsea can raise enough furore to demote them to the lower league but the same issue if raised by a smaller club will not affect them.

It is shameful the level of refereeing incompetence in England, and the English refs have been shown up on the international stage as well, last year's final match of the world cup, Howard Webb's show, Graham Poll's 3 card red. If there was a detailed analysis done by any of the stat companies they will show up the refs.
Also, in no other league is there such a level of variance in the decisions given by the refs. Kenny's complaint goes back to the Sunderland game, Suarez is fouled by a last man defender, no red, the reason given by the ref I read was that he was going away from goal. In the same round of league matches, a very similar thing happens and it is a red. Now if this was to happen say one every 10 matches I would still agree, but it is far more regular. This is not even taking in to account, the number of wrong throw-ins and corners given by refs.

I have to say, while I do not have any special admiration for the refs in Spain or Italy they are far better than their English counter-parts. The mistakes will always be there, but the pathetic show that goes on here is not seen anywhere else.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I'm not saying it does excuse it, but it would be interesting to know if it would make a difference. Maths e.t.c. is not my strong point so the bit about retinner fees means nothing im afraid however I gather they still earn a lot more than I do!

They get a basic salary of E38.5k and then costs per match.

I read somewhere that they would earn £80k/season when the 'Professional Referee' was spawned.  I've since read that they earn over £100k.

I remember Clattenberg's tart nicking and trashing his Porsche Carrera a few years ago so it can hardly be a paupers wage.

[teri_ma_ki]

Not to take away from Kenny, butI don't recall a bad decision in the Arsenal match. In fact, we were a little fortunate as I think the Suarez one was offside. We were done by in the Sunderland match though. Multiple times.

wasn't there that back pass decision .... there have been some major (goal scoring decisions) go against us

[Carra-ton]

wasn't there that back pass decision .... there have been some major (goal scoring decisions) go against us

That was the Bolton mate, but even in that game where Arsenal were so bad that they didn't have possession to get a decision, we got a bad one when Kelly was bundled by Arshavin for a push and shove which was far greater than what Carra did yesterday, yet he couldn't spot it, if Reina didn't make the following save we again could have been in the docks.
I think the referees association about a couple of years ago when Rob Stiles robbed us of a victory against Chelsea said that such kind of incidents even themselves out over a season. I mean wtf, the risks and costs are so great, and is it too much to expect the refs to atleast keep the same standard.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Forget Utd but the rest of the teams know that if they go to a big team's home ground they have zero chance of getting a pen. This is the belief held by managers in the premier league and the first division.
The refs know that a Utd or Chelsea can raise enough furore to demote them to the lower league but the same issue if raised by a smaller club will not affect them.

It is shameful the level of refereeing incompetence in England, and the English refs have been shown up on the international stage as well, last year's final match of the world cup, Howard Webb's show, Graham Poll's 3 card red. If there was a detailed analysis done by any of the stat companies they will show up the refs.
Also, in no other league is there such a level of variance in the decisions given by the refs. Kenny's complaint goes back to the Sunderland game, Suarez is fouled by a last man defender, no red, the reason given by the ref I read was that he was going away from goal. In the same round of league matches, a very similar thing happens and it is a red. Now if this was to happen say one every 10 matches I would still agree, but it is far more regular. This is not even taking in to account, the number of wrong throw-ins and corners given by refs.

I have to say, while I do not have any special admiration for the refs in Spain or Italy they are far better than their English counter-parts. The mistakes will always be there, but the pathetic show that goes on here is not seen anywhere else.

Ok, let us forget United

It's not just the Sunderland game and the last man debate.  Which is why Kenny has come out and said what he has.  I was at the Sunderland game and Keiron Richardson was the last man and prevented a goal scoring opportunity

I don't recall much wrong with the Arsenal game and was out of the country for the Bolton game but have watched all but Stoke live this season.

Home versus Sunderland - Phil Dowd

1) At 0-0.  Kieron Richardson should have been sent off.  Blatant professional foul, last man as Suarez rounded the keeper and he prevented a goalscoring opportunity

2)  At 1-0.  Andy Carroll has a goal disallowed for a shove on Anton Ferdinand.  Replays show it was a minor brush and I have since seen goals where the attacker has had much more contact than Carroll's had

Away to Arsenal Martin Atkinson

1) At 0-0.  Suarez did appear to be a gnat's cock off side.  The rules are to give the advantage to the attacker but, to stop those who feel we are all bitter reds we'll take that as one for us.

Bolton at home Lee Probert

You'll have to correct me as I was out on the lash in Spain for this one.....

1) At 1-0.  Downing tries to get past the Bolton right back who handles it on the edge of the area.  In real time it looked a 50-50 call.  In replay it shows that Probert actuall called this one right.  I'm not sure how he called it right but let us give him the benefit of the doubt eh?

2) At 1-0.  Suarez takes on Bolton's 7ft tall centre half (whose name I cannot recall) Kop end and is ankle tapped in Rugby League fashion.  Clear penalty - nothing awarded.

3) At 1-0.  Clear pass back to Jaaskalainen is pressured by Suarez and handled by the goalkeeper.  No indirect free kick is given

Stoke City away Mark Clattenberg

1) at 0-0.  Skrtel bursts forward into the box and is caught late by Stokes centre half.  Some say that the shot had already left Skrtel's foot, but if it had been down the other end of the field and Skrtel was caught late then it would have been a free kick

2) at 0-0.  Walters tugs Carragher's arm to send him off balance, get's his body in between the ball and Carragher and starts backing in.  Carragher tries to get back goal side and get his arm across Walters.  Carragher's balance and the fact that Walters is backing in brings both players to the ground but not before Walters can perform a triple-salko to exagerate matters.  No - because Carragher was fouled first but it's harshly awarded.

3) At 0-1.  Kuyt's header down hits Rory Delap on the arm.  His arm is flailing.  Whilst it would be a harsh penalty, I recall Carragher getting nailed for something like this against Villa.

4) At 0-1.  Suarez tries to clip the ball across goal and with Pieter Schmeical-esque grace, Matthew Upson goes to block the cross.  Again both arms are flailing but again no penalty is awarded.

There may well be more but I count 10 'key' incidents (key meaning whilst the game is closely contested - not 4-0 etc).  A lot were decisions we should have had but even if these were all 50-50's then we should surely have had half (or certainly more than 1?!)

We have been refereed by 4 different refs so far.  Only Martin Atkinson has not given anything against us and lets be honest, the Suarez decision was a close call by not him but his linesman and he's dicked us a fair few times in the past.  It's easy to blame it on incompetent refereeing but 4 different refs giving 90% of key decisions against Liverpool?  I don't pretend to be a maths guru but this percentage, if Liverpool are ever to win the league again, needs to drop considerably.

It's impossible to say we would have managed to win all these games if the correct decision had been made but let's face it - we could well have been sitting on at least 10 points.  We could have been up level with the 'big teams' at a point when their European Exploits are about to begin.  Then again we could have drawn against Arsenal, beat Sunderland and still lost to Stoke and been as we are - its all 'if's and buts'.

But Kenny for me as called this right.  It's not about whinging Scousers - its about honesty, clarity and consistancy.  He's given enough time for the refs to make these 'errors' and can now put them in a position to be analysed.  Let's hope that his words get Liverpool a fair crack of the whip eh?  That's all he wants - a level playing field.

[Carra-ton]

Ok, let us forget United

It's not just the Sunderland game and the last man debate.  Which is why Kenny has come out and said what he has.  I was at the Sunderland game and Keiron Richardson was the last man and prevented a goal scoring opportunity

I don't recall much wrong with the Arsenal game and was out of the country for the Bolton game but have watched all but Stoke live this season.

Home versus Sunderland - Phil Dowd

1) At 0-0.  Kieron Richardson should have been sent off.  Blatant professional foul, last man as Suarez rounded the keeper and he prevented a goalscoring opportunity

2)  At 1-0.  Andy Carroll has a goal disallowed for a shove on Anton Ferdinand.  Replays show it was a minor brush and I have since seen goals where the attacker has had much more contact than Carroll's had

Away to Arsenal Martin Atkinson

1) At 0-0.  Suarez did appear to be a gnat's cock off side.  The rules are to give the advantage to the attacker but, to stop those who feel we are all bitter reds we'll take that as one for us.

Bolton at home Lee Probert

You'll have to correct me as I was out on the lash in Spain for this one.....

1) At 1-0.  Downing tries to get past the Bolton right back who handles it on the edge of the area.  In real time it looked a 50-50 call.  In replay it shows that Probert actuall called this one right.  I'm not sure how he called it right but let us give him the benefit of the doubt eh?

2) At 1-0.  Suarez takes on Bolton's 7ft tall centre half (whose name I cannot recall) Kop end and is ankle tapped in Rugby League fashion.  Clear penalty - nothing awarded.

3) At 1-0.  Clear pass back to Jaaskalainen is pressured by Suarez and handled by the goalkeeper.  No indirect free kick is given

Stoke City away Mark Clattenberg

1) at 0-0.  Skrtel bursts forward into the box and is caught late by Stokes centre half.  Some say that the shot had already left Skrtel's foot, but if it had been down the other end of the field and Skrtel was caught late then it would have been a free kick

2) at 0-0.  Walters tugs Carragher's arm to send him off balance, get's his body in between the ball and Carragher and starts backing in.  Carragher tries to get back goal side and get his arm across Walters.  Carragher's balance and the fact that Walters is backing in brings both players to the ground but not before Walters can perform a triple-salko to exagerate matters.  No - because Carragher was fouled first but it's harshly awarded.

3) At 0-1.  Kuyt's header down hits Rory Delap on the arm.  His arm is flailing.  Whilst it would be a harsh penalty, I recall Carragher getting nailed for something like this against Villa.

4) At 0-1.  Suarez tries to clip the ball across goal and with Pieter Schmeical-esque grace, Matthew Upson goes to block the cross.  Again both arms are flailing but again no penalty is awarded.

There may well be more but I count 10 'key' incidents (key meaning whilst the game is closely contested - not 4-0 etc).  A lot were decisions we should have had but even if these were all 50-50's then we should surely have had half (or certainly more than 1?!)

We have been refereed by 4 different refs so far.  Only Martin Atkinson has not given anything against us and lets be honest, the Suarez decision was a close call by not him but his linesman and he's dicked us a fair few times in the past.  It's easy to blame it on incompetent refereeing but 4 different refs giving 90% of key decisions against Liverpool?  I don't pretend to be a maths guru but this percentage, if Liverpool are ever to win the league again, needs to drop considerably.

It's impossible to say we would have managed to win all these games if the correct decision had been made but let's face it - we could well have been sitting on at least 10 points.  We could have been up level with the 'big teams' at a point when their European Exploits are about to begin.  Then again we could have drawn against Arsenal, beat Sunderland and still lost to Stoke and been as we are - its all 'if's and buts'.

But Kenny for me as called this right.  It's not about whinging Scousers - its about honesty, clarity and consistancy.  He's given enough time for the refs to make these 'errors' and can now put them in a position to be analysed.  Let's hope that his words get Liverpool a fair crack of the whip eh?  That's all he wants - a level playing field.

Top post, and absolutely agree.

[andyrol]

kenny is being cute and clever, i cant see the press making it into a rant like they would have with raffa, and it puts a little pressure on the ref for the spurs game.  i remember martin tylers ex monkey once saying that you want refs to get the big decisions right and if they do you can accept the odd mistake for other incidents. if we look at all our games so far: SUNDERLAND- big decision=should richardson be sent off as last man? replays say yes ref says no so ref gets that one WRONG. ARSENAL-probably the biggest decisions the ref had to make in this game were, the push by arshavin not given, ref WRONG. and the frimpong foul on lucas should have been a straight red , if he hadnt been booked would the ref still have only booked him? BOLTON- handball on edge of area, crowd scream penalty replays show just outside ref gets it RIGHT, knight pulls suarez down by grabbing his foot, certain pen, ref says no WRONG, backpass picked up by keeper, nothing given ref WRONG. STOKE- for the stoke pen, if the contact by carra was a foul then the contact firstly by walters has to be a foul ref WRONG, late tackle on skrtel in area, nothing given, ref WRONG, handball by delap, nothing given, ref WRONG, handball by upson ( who is making his area bigger by spreading his arms)  nothing given, ref WRONG.
so in the big decisions the officials have got 1 right and 8 wrong. no wonder kenny is annoyed.

[sideshowme]

as soon as i heard kenny's comments i was sure it'd be spun into a "kenny's rant" type thing by idiots in the media, and sure enough it has been.  for example, football365's main headline at the moment is "Dalglish: Refs lack respect for Pool", and describes his words as a "conspiracy-hinting rant" (i'll leave aside the fact that at no point did kenny actually say that refs lack respect for the club...)

while i'm glad he came out and said what he did, just as i was when rafa did the same, i don't think it's going to do us any favours.  as a club, we no longer have the aura or the friends in high (media) places to apply this kind of pressure to referees, and no amount of money can buy that overnight, unfortunately.

[Torpedo Tommy]

as soon as i heard kenny's comments i was sure it'd be spun into a "kenny's rant" type thing by idiots in the media, and sure enough it has been.  for example, football365's main headline at the moment is "Dalglish: Refs lack respect for Pool", and describes his words as a "conspiracy-hinting rant" (i'll leave aside the fact that at no point did kenny actually say that refs lack respect for the club...)

while i'm glad he came out and said what he did, just as i was when rafa did the same, i don't think it's going to do us any favours.  as a club, we no longer have the aura or the friends in high (media) places to apply this kind of pressure to referees, and no amount of money can buy that overnight, unfortunately.

Yeah but if you read the article it ain't too bad.  Football 365 is meant to have a bit of banter in it's reports - they even have a pop at Demento

http://www.football365.com/

Kenny Dalglish has accused referees of lacking "respect" for Liverpool in a conspiracy-hinting rant after his side's controversial and rather angry 1-0 defeat at Stoke yesterday. According to Dalglish, "The first four league games have had contentious decisions in them and every one has gone against us." He'll now speak to the club's American owners before deciding if he'll make some sort of official complaint. Is he the new Fergie?...


The actual Article isn't that bad to be fair.  They actually put a few complimentary words in there

http://www.football365.com/liverpool/7168359/Dalglish-Refs-Lack-Respect-For-Pool

Kenny Dalglish will consult Liverpool's owners before deciding on how to deal with issues over refereeing decisions after the defeat at Stoke.

The Reds boss was unhappy with a number of incidents in their 1-0 reverse at Stoke, their first Premier League defeat of the season.

Jon Walters' 20th-minute penalty was one of those, although Liverpool had a number of claims for a spot-kick turned down by referee Mark Clattenburg, with the most valid when Luis Suarez's cross late in the game hit the arm of Matthew Upson.

And while many other Premier League managers would come out ranting and raving and firing off complaints to the Professional Game Match Game Officials Limited Dalglish wants to take a more considered approach and will consult with principal owner John Henry and chairman Tom Werner of Fenway Sports Group.

"We would like to be respectful to referees - and I'd like to think I have been - but more importantly than being respectful to the referees is having respect for my football club," he said.

"If I feel they are suffering in any shape or form I will need to go the same route other people go and see if we can gain some benefit from that.

"The first four league games have had contentious decisions in them and every one has gone against us.

"I'll speak to the owners first and see what they say because the last thing I want to do is for my behaviour to impinge on the club's success in any way."

Unlike many top-flight counterparts Dalglish stressed he had no issues with the way Stoke had played and praised their determination and resilience.

But he felt his side should have got more from a match they dominated and said he did not think Jamie Carragher had fouled Walters for the spot-kick.

"I think it is a bit of an understatement to say we deserved something from the game," added the Scot.

"We can only do what we can do ourselves, sometimes other things are taken outside your jurisdiction.

"If we continue to play with the same attitude and commitment then we will be okay this season.

"But if we continually get battered by things outside of our control we are not going to get much chance.

"We don't have any complaint about Stoke; they played hard and played well, they got the goal and defended courageously at times and maybe at times they got a bit of luck.

"We don't have anything but appreciation for the way they played and the way they held on to win the game.

"There is nothing for me to say which is anything other than complimentary to Tony and Stoke. But I just cannot see how it is a penalty kick."

Stoke boss Tony Pulis, understandably, took a counter view to Dalglish.

"I think Kenny will be as biased [to his team] as I am to Stoke," he said.

"I respect his opinion and whether the decisions were (less than impartial) or not I don't know.

"We were pretty poor in possession of the ball and we are better than that but we were top drawer off the ball.

"We stopped them playing, although I thought Suarez up front was fantastic."

[Torpedo Tommy]

as soon as i heard kenny's comments i was sure it'd be spun into a "kenny's rant" type thing by idiots in the media, and sure enough it has been.  for example, football365's main headline at the moment is "Dalglish: Refs lack respect for Pool", and describes his words as a "conspiracy-hinting rant" (i'll leave aside the fact that at no point did kenny actually say that refs lack respect for the club...)

while i'm glad he came out and said what he did, just as i was when rafa did the same, i don't think it's going to do us any favours.  as a club, we no longer have the aura or the friends in high (media) places to apply this kind of pressure to referees, and no amount of money can buy that overnight, unfortunately.

The other thing was that there was a slight language barrier with Rafa.  He couldn't get it put across right.

Mr Dalglish however, has put things across perfectly.

They've (Refs assc or whatever it is these days) devised this respect campaign.  But respect is a two way thing.  You can't use this 'Respect' campaign as a wall to hide behind every time a shite or controversial decision is made.  Kenny has reversed it on them and put it at their doorstep.

[Fat Scouser]

I think what Kenny said yesterday belongs in the thread about how ruthless he can be. I take me hat off to the lad. That was brilliant yesterday. He could have went charging in and pissed some people off. this way he's said his piece without causing a commotion. Good lad, Kenny.

[sideshowme]

it's quite a misrepresentation of his words to say that he feels "refs lack respect" for the club though.  this is ironic given that the site prides itself on its mediawatch where it tears other papers apart about lazy headline writing.  i agree that the article (which is probably written externally) has a different tone than the headline (and nowhere mentions refs lacking respect for the club), but a lot of people don't get much further than the headline.

the only reason this won't be blown up into a rafa's rant style thing is that at the moment we're several million miles away from challenging united for the title.

[Red Beret]

Ok, let us forget United

It's not just the Sunderland game and the last man debate.  Which is why Kenny has come out and said what he has.  I was at the Sunderland game and Keiron Richardson was the last man and prevented a goal scoring opportunity

I don't recall much wrong with the Arsenal game and was out of the country for the Bolton game but have watched all but Stoke live this season.

Home versus Sunderland - Phil Dowd

1) At 0-0.  Kieron Richardson should have been sent off.  Blatant professional foul, last man as Suarez rounded the keeper and he prevented a goalscoring opportunity

2)  At 1-0.  Andy Carroll has a goal disallowed for a shove on Anton Ferdinand.  Replays show it was a minor brush and I have since seen goals where the attacker has had much more contact than Carroll's had

Away to Arsenal Martin Atkinson

1) At 0-0.  Suarez did appear to be a gnat's cock off side.  The rules are to give the advantage to the attacker but, to stop those who feel we are all bitter reds we'll take that as one for us.

Bolton at home Lee Probert

You'll have to correct me as I was out on the lash in Spain for this one.....

1) At 1-0.  Downing tries to get past the Bolton right back who handles it on the edge of the area.  In real time it looked a 50-50 call.  In replay it shows that Probert actuall called this one right.  I'm not sure how he called it right but let us give him the benefit of the doubt eh?

2) At 1-0.  Suarez takes on Bolton's 7ft tall centre half (whose name I cannot recall) Kop end and is ankle tapped in Rugby League fashion.  Clear penalty - nothing awarded.

3) At 1-0.  Clear pass back to Jaaskalainen is pressured by Suarez and handled by the goalkeeper.  No indirect free kick is given

Stoke City away Mark Clattenberg

1) at 0-0.  Skrtel bursts forward into the box and is caught late by Stokes centre half.  Some say that the shot had already left Skrtel's foot, but if it had been down the other end of the field and Skrtel was caught late then it would have been a free kick

2) at 0-0.  Walters tugs Carragher's arm to send him off balance, get's his body in between the ball and Carragher and starts backing in.  Carragher tries to get back goal side and get his arm across Walters.  Carragher's balance and the fact that Walters is backing in brings both players to the ground but not before Walters can perform a triple-salko to exagerate matters.  No - because Carragher was fouled first but it's harshly awarded.

3) At 0-1.  Kuyt's header down hits Rory Delap on the arm.  His arm is flailing.  Whilst it would be a harsh penalty, I recall Carragher getting nailed for something like this against Villa.

4) At 0-1.  Suarez tries to clip the ball across goal and with Pieter Schmeical-esque grace, Matthew Upson goes to block the cross.  Again both arms are flailing but again no penalty is awarded.

There may well be more but I count 10 'key' incidents (key meaning whilst the game is closely contested - not 4-0 etc).  A lot were decisions we should have had but even if these were all 50-50's then we should surely have had half (or certainly more than 1?!)

We have been refereed by 4 different refs so far.  Only Martin Atkinson has not given anything against us and lets be honest, the Suarez decision was a close call by not him but his linesman and he's dicked us a fair few times in the past.  It's easy to blame it on incompetent refereeing but 4 different refs giving 90% of key decisions against Liverpool?  I don't pretend to be a maths guru but this percentage, if Liverpool are ever to win the league again, needs to drop considerably.

It's impossible to say we would have managed to win all these games if the correct decision had been made but let's face it - we could well have been sitting on at least 10 points.  We could have been up level with the 'big teams' at a point when their European Exploits are about to begin.  Then again we could have drawn against Arsenal, beat Sunderland and still lost to Stoke and been as we are - its all 'if's and buts'.

But Kenny for me as called this right.  It's not about whinging Scousers - its about honesty, clarity and consistancy.  He's given enough time for the refs to make these 'errors' and can now put them in a position to be analysed.  Let's hope that his words get Liverpool a fair crack of the whip eh?  That's all he wants - a level playing field.

I agree but we should also be doing well enough that we shouldn't have our results depending on such decisions.  We failed to overpower Stoke and failed to convert our penalty against Sunderland, which would have rendered Carroll's disallowed goal irrelevant.

I want Liverpool to be treated as fairly as our rivals but we are clearly not steamrolling sides either.

[ruairimacliam]

I agree.

Blaming referees is taking the easy way out. Id much prefer we do our talking on the pitch.

[Fiasco]

It's so good to have Kenny at the helm. He's fuming, rightly so but is going about it in a much more professional manner than anyone else would in this league.

Sunderland - Richardson should be off after 6 minutes, ten men for a full game would of been impossibly tough for Sunderland and we would of won, no doubt.

Arsenal - Arshavin on Kelly was a clear, clear foul and it could of cost us the game if it wasn't for Reina.

Bolton - Two clear cut penalties and a pass back which was clear as day.

Stoke - Two definate penalties for us and a 50-50 decision for them for a pen.


You know, isn't it funny, how the refs can see decisions against us easily, but never for us? In the Bolton game, Marriner I think it was, could see that the handball in the first half for us was minimally just outside, and he didn't give us the pen. It wasn't, but it was very very close. Yet he couldn't see a fucking pass back clear as day and two other pens. I'm not screaming CONSPIRACY!!!! But it's fucking annoying.

[Zlen]

I agree.

Blaming referees is taking the easy way out. Id much prefer we do our talking on the pitch.

Nah.
We do enough on the pitch to win. Their incompetence is costing us dearly and it needs to be said.

[Skeeve]

I agree but we should also be doing well enough that we shouldn't have our results depending on such decisions.  We failed to overpower Stoke and failed to convert our penalty against Sunderland, which would have rendered Carroll's disallowed goal irrelevant.

I want Liverpool to be treated as fairly as our rivals but we are clearly not steamrolling sides either.

It is only natural that at this point in the season with a large number of new players to settle in we are not going to be fully firing on all cylinders yet, so the glaring incompetence of the officials just becomes more obtrusive since it does have an influence on the results.

[Red_Rich]

And we've not even had a Webb-game yet.

As for Kenny's "My worst 1-0 defeat as a manager", I'm sure if he looked again he would change his choice to the '88 cup final.

[verbal kint]

And we've not even had a Webb-game yet.

As for Kenny's "My worst 1-0 defeat as a manager", I'm sure if he looked again he would change his choice to the '88 cup final.

He said his "best 1-0 defeat", im sure.

[Red Beret]

Nah.
We do enough on the pitch to win. Their incompetence is costing us dearly and it needs to be said.

Newcastle beat Sunderland and Utd just put five past Bolton.  The refs are costing us certainly but we should still be putting games beyond doubt. 

[Camarero25]

You know, isn't it funny, how the refs can see decisions against us easily, but never for us? In the Bolton game, Marriner I think it was, could see that the handball in the first half for us was minimally just outside, and he didn't give us the pen. It wasn't, but it was very very close. Yet he couldn't see a fucking pass back clear as day and two other pens. I'm not screaming CONSPIRACY!!!! But it's fucking annoying.

Agreed. I wouldn't say the refs have made any massively wrong, obvious decisions, but almost every single 50-50 call has gone against us this season. It's doing my fucking head in, and I'm glad Kenny's said something about it.