Topic: Is Google/WhatsApp/Facebook listening to our conversations for targeted ads?

[Skidder.]

Read this thread ages ago and just popped into my head. This morning on the motorway listening to radio city on the way to work a woman was mentioning how hard it is to be a woman and that she looked like a wooden cabinet after a spray tan went wrong. Just reading an article about juanma our new u23 left back and on the page is an add for oakland wooden furniture and a massive wooden set of drawers

That is just mad - all these stories coming out are very interesting.

Glad it isn't just me, and I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing.

[rob1966]

Always knew Google/Facebook was tracking what we do via the PC, mobile whatever due to the amount of targeted ads, but I've never thought they were listening to conversations until this morning.

Wife's stepdad died in April and my 6 yr old was given his Ipad. I've left Pete's gmail account active to keep an eye out for anything we need to know about. There were loads to be deleted, so I occasionally log into his email from work to clean them up, but haven't done so for a few weeks now.

Last night me and the wife are discussing finances and she said I'd be 60 quid a month better off as something has finished and I said no as I've signed up for share save at work and thats 50 a month. I was then chatting about it and saying at the end of 3 years I can buy just over 3,000 shares at 57p and if they go up I'll make varying amount of money.

Lad puts the Ipad on this morning and the top item on the recommended for you thing that's on screen is my work's share price (90p). That has never appeared before and its not like its some well know company, it's a hire company that most people won't even know about. I get that Google now know about the employer as they've had a login from our work, but why suddenly the share price? Its never once shown anything about work and never on my personal laptop.

[CraigDS]

Have you searched for the share price on any of your devices? I imagine you probably have if doing the share scheme, so it'll be cross device tracking/advertising.

[rob1966]

Have you searched for the share price on any of your devices? I imagine you probably have if doing the share scheme, so it'll be cross device tracking/advertising.

Yeah I do it at work, never on the Ipad though and haven't for a few weeks, I thought the shares will still at about 60p, didn't know they'd gone up to 90p. I had looked at Speedy Hires share and searched for Hewden but they have not appeared. last night is the first time I've discussed the share save with the wife and its a bit of a coincidence that the first thing I see on the Ipad is that - my facebook isn't showing anything concerned with my employer.

Edit- Top of the facebook feed is Loris Karius, I was in the Karius thread earlier 

[CraigDS]

They'll have your various devices linked through a load of different ways, so searches and browsing history on one will affect what adverts you see on others. Will just be a coincidence it's happened after talking about it.

[rob1966]

Normally I'd agree but this one is bothering me. I'm going to keep an eye on it and see what else occurs.

[oojason]

It's a little off-topic, though still related...

Rule 41 — The FBI Just Got Unlimited Power To Hack Any Computer In The World:-

https://fossbytes.com/rule-41-fbi-hacking-power-computer-warrant/

[Skidder.]

Always knew Google/Facebook was tracking what we do via the PC, mobile whatever due to the amount of targeted ads, but I've never thought they were listening to conversations until this morning.

Wife's stepdad died in April and my 6 yr old was given his Ipad. I've left Pete's gmail account active to keep an eye out for anything we need to know about. There were loads to be deleted, so I occasionally log into his email from work to clean them up, but haven't done so for a few weeks now.

Last night me and the wife are discussing finances and she said I'd be 60 quid a month better off as something has finished and I said no as I've signed up for share save at work and thats 50 a month. I was then chatting about it and saying at the end of 3 years I can buy just over 3,000 shares at 57p and if they go up I'll make varying amount of money.

Lad puts the Ipad on this morning and the top item on the recommended for you thing that's on screen is my work's share price (90p). That has never appeared before and its not like its some well know company, it's a hire company that most people won't even know about. I get that Google now know about the employer as they've had a login from our work, but why suddenly the share price? Its never once shown anything about work and never on my personal laptop.

What device do you suspect is 'listening'? What other devices are you using? What devices were on when you were talking to your wife?

It definitely isn't in your head, if you read back, I've had very similar circustances (as have many others), so it isn't just a coincidence. True, they could track you in ways that may be pretty standard (cookies, search history, etc), but if you're sure you haven't searched from your computer or device, then I can't think of any other possibility.

[conman]

It's a little off-topic, though still related...

Rule 41 — The FBI Just Got Unlimited Power To Hack Any Computer In The World:-

https://fossbytes.com/rule-41-fbi-hacking-power-computer-warrant/

World police

[Skidder.]

World police

The safety aspect doesn't bother me that much - it is the monetisation that bothers me.

[rob1966]

What device do you suspect is 'listening'? What other devices are you using? What devices were on when you were talking to your wife?

It definitely isn't in your head, if you read back, I've had very similar circustances (as have many others), so it isn't just a coincidence. True, they could track you in ways that may be pretty standard (cookies, search history, etc), but if you're sure you haven't searched from your computer or device, then I can't think of any other possibility.

I'd think it's my HTC ONE M8. It's always around me as I leave it in the living room.

[CraigDS]

so it isn't just a coincidence.

Well, it could easily be. Just because it's happened to a number of people doesn't mean it isn't.

[Lfsea]

Thought of this thread the other day.

Was pootling along in the Highlands of Scotland with my phone on for Google Maps (yeah, yeah Waze is better) and was listening to something along the lines of R4 and the chat ended up veering towards favourite holiday destinations and talking about Kingston in Jamaica being not for the feint hearted.

Didn't pay any attention at the time, but a few minutes later, my phone said do a u-turn, so I just thought I'd missed a turning. Again, carried on pootling along after doing my u-turn. But another 20 minutes driving and I thought "this is weird, I definitely came this way already". After a bit of huffing and puffing to wrest the phone from the vice like holster and damaging my dashboard in the process, it turned out that the phone had picked up on the conversation from the radio and had re-navigated me on the best route to Kingston in Jamaica.

'Kinnell

[CraigDS]

Which just goes to show how absurd the idea that it phones listen to everything and serve up ads is - because if a phone cannot differentiate between background noise from a radio or TV then how is it going to pick out your voice or the context in the way things are being said - pointless serving up an ad for Everton tickets because you were laughing with your mate about Everton fans complaining about their manager's Christmas tree decorations, for instance.

Advertisers simply don't want to pay for such poor targeting like that, not when there are so many better ways to target potential customers.

[Skidder.]

Which just goes to show how absurd the idea that it phones listen to everything and serve up ads is - because if a phone cannot differentiate between background noise from a radio or TV then how is it going to pick out your voice or the context in the way things are being said - pointless serving up an ad for Everton tickets because you were laughing with your mate about Everton fans complaining about their manager's Christmas tree decorations, for instance.

Advertisers simply don't want to pay for such poor targeting like that, not when there are so many better ways to target potential customers.

As a long-time poster on this thread, you have to admit... 8 or so pages on and story after story... either this thread is influencing people, or more and more people are noticing instances where their phone may be picking up on words, background noise and repetitive words.

Furthermore, I am quite surprised that you can't think of a reason that this would be feesable and sustainable as an advertising tool. Companies the world over could use, let's just say, 'hotwords' to try to create some kind of semi-faux algorythm that could predict consumer need/want (which would then be sold as a consumer insight service).

I've said this time and time again, it makes perfect sense from a business perspective - it is just so absurd that it seems almost science fiction...

I think time will tell - I suspect that we will be discussing this topic in this thread for years and still not come to a resolution.

[Skidder.]

I'd think it's my HTC ONE M8. It's always around me as I leave it in the living room.

Try to re-create the same setting - before your wife comes in, write down a totally random subject and talk about it - keep tabs on your devices for the next few days.

Try to talk about doing something or something happening... mention landmarks and dates and stuff, just as a tester.

To be honest, I have uninstalled all Google/Facebook off of my phone and haven't had any ads that have been suspect... My girlfriend has started turning her phone off when we're together and she hasn't noticed anything.

It would be interesting if you could post your browsing history (edited, of course) for all to see - and then try a controlled experiment, as above, to see if you can recreate it.

[Skidder.]

Bit of a strange one - but...

Started a new role in a new location, within healthcare. Haven't updated any Facebook details, haven't got Linkedin, haven't been doing anything on tinternet that I don't ordinarily do.

Had two friend requests from some sort of healthcare recruitment companies in the area.

I did however, have a discussion on the phone with my other half about looking around for a new part-time job in the NHS.

[CraigDS]

It'll be location based targeting (either using their wifi along with others there which they'll group you with, or using mobile network in a similar area to those others), along with knowing that you work in healthcare (from previous interactions).

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/millions-exposed-to-malvertising-that-hid-attack-code-in-banner-pixels/

interesting read.
protect yourselves people.

[CraigDS]

From a piece Zuckerberg has written today detailing his experience creating an AI for his house...

"Speech recognition systems have improved recently, but no AI system is good enough to understand conversational speech just yet. Speech recognition relies on both listening to what you say and predicting what you will say next, so structured speech is still much easier to understand than unstructured conversation."

This is something I (and others) have been saying in this thread for a while. There just isn't the tech out there currently, and certainly not that can fit in your phone and not use it's full processing ability and zap your battery in minutes, which can continuously listen to your conversations AND process them to provide accurate data to target adverts that would be relevant to you.

[Graeme]

But.....but.....Kidder was talking to someone about Christmas recently and his Facebook is full of Christmas adverts! It can't be a coincidence!

[Elmo!]

From a piece Zuckerberg has written today detailing his experience creating an AI for his house...

"Speech recognition systems have improved recently, but no AI system is good enough to understand conversational speech just yet. Speech recognition relies on both listening to what you say and predicting what you will say next, so structured speech is still much easier to understand than unstructured conversation."

This is something I (and others) have been saying in this thread for a while. There just isn't the tech out there currently, and certainly not that can fit in your phone and not use it's full processing ability and zap your battery in minutes, which can continuously listen to your conversations AND process them to provide accurate data to target adverts that would be relevant to you.

Yeah, well, he would say that wouldn't he? 

[Skidder.]

From a piece Zuckerberg has written today detailing his experience creating an AI for his house...

"Speech recognition systems have improved recently, but no AI system is good enough to understand conversational speech just yet. Speech recognition relies on both listening to what you say and predicting what you will say next, so structured speech is still much easier to understand than unstructured conversation."

This is something I (and others) have been saying in this thread for a while. There just isn't the tech out there currently, and certainly not that can fit in your phone and not use it's full processing ability and zap your battery in minutes, which can continuously listen to your conversations AND process them to provide accurate data to target adverts that would be relevant to you.

Well, he ain't going to admit it - and, as much as that is a 'denial', there must be a reason for him to say it.

It is a bit grey and I think what others and I have been saying is that... okay, whilst there mightn't be a system of voice tapping going on (for commercial purposes), there do seem to be an alarming number of instances where adverts (and the like) appear to be targeted toward topics of conversation that may have recently been discussed on or around a phone.

I mean, what is Zuckerberg really saying?

"Speech recognition systems have improved recently, but no AI system is good enough to understand conversational speech just yet. Speech recognition relies on both listening to what you say and predicting what you will say next, so structured speech is still much easier to understand than unstructured conversation."

I don't even get the context - who was he talking to and what was said before/afterward?

In fact, if I'm honest, I don't even get that statement and does not in any way, shape or form explain anything that has been addressed in this thread - it does appear to address AI, but it doesn't really take a Hal 9000 to pick-up on specific 'hotwords' - call centres have been using similar tech for years now. Granted, the scope of technological requirements for any kind of practical commercial 'hotword' honeytrap would not be fathomable. But I often wonder if some massive central AI (Zuckerberg's words, not mine) would be needed. We have high-end, open source, hackable and exploitable computers on us, or around us, 24/7. The market is moving toward voice recognition (siri, Ok Google, etc...), and as Charlie Brooker as it sounds, we will soon be able to control the very basic functions of our houses with voice recognition.

You could say that the infrastructure isn't there to support such a system - I would say that the foundations are there, in place, and in time, people will love them for making their lives easier.

 

 

[rob1966]

The market is moving toward voice recognition (siri, Ok Google, etc...), and as Charlie Brooker as it sounds, we will soon be able to control the very basic functions of our houses with voice recognition.

You already can to an extent. My brother in law has got Hive and Alexa and you can control the hive stuff by asking Alexa. Lazy fucker just sits there getting Alexa to turn the heating on or off and getting it to change radio stations or play music for him. Not sure if he's set up his Indian takeaway order from Just eat yet..

[CraigDS]

Well, he ain't going to admit it - and, as much as that is a 'denial', there must be a reason for him to say it.

Yes, as I said in my post, he's talking about his 2016 personal project which was to make his own 'Jarvis' - a home AI.

It is a bit grey and I think what others and I have been saying is that... okay, whilst there mightn't be a system of voice tapping going on (for commercial purposes), there do seem to be an alarming number of instances where adverts (and the like) appear to be targeted toward topics of conversation that may have recently been discussed on or around a phone.

So which is it? First you say there isn't voice tapping going on for commercial purposes, then you say there are adverts which are linked to what people have discussed around their phones - which is about a commercial purpose as you can get.

I mean, what is Zuckerberg really saying?

"Speech recognition systems have improved recently, but no AI system is good enough to understand conversational speech just yet. Speech recognition relies on both listening to what you say and predicting what you will say next, so structured speech is still much easier to understand than unstructured conversation."

I don't even get the context - who was he talking to and what was said before/afterward?

Again, as I said in my post, it's from a much bigger piece he wrote regarding the issues he found during his 2016 personal project of creating his own home AI.

I think it's pretty clear what he is saying - the tech isn't there at the moment for a computer system to listen to conversational speech and understand it. Conversational speech is exactly what we do around our phones, hence me bringing this quote into this thread, as it's relevant.

In fact, if I'm honest, I don't even get that statement and does not in any way, shape or form explain anything that has been addressed in this thread - it does appear to address AI, but it doesn't really take a Hal 9000 to pick-up on specific 'hotwords' - call centres have been using similar tech for years now. Granted, the scope of technological requirements for any kind of practical commercial 'hotword' honeytrap would not be fathomable. But I often wonder if some massive central AI (Zuckerberg's words, not mine) would be needed. We have high-end, open source, hackable and exploitable computers on us, or around us, 24/7. The market is moving toward voice recognition (siri, Ok Google, etc...), and as Charlie Brooker as it sounds, we will soon be able to control the very basic functions of our houses with voice recognition.

'Hotwords' are fine for structured speech, as Zuckerberg points out. So if you're giving commands or answering questions in a set way ('Yes', 'No', 'Play X song'). This is absolutely no use for advertising. None, what so ever.

I laughed with my mates about Everton the other day, the 'hotword' picked out would no doubt be "Everton". Do you think then targeting Everton related adverts to me is a good fit? Do you think advertisers will be willing to pay money to target their adverts to me based on that? Nope.

You, and others who thing this may happen, have given plenty of other bad targeting examples in this thread too which shows it would be an utterly pointless thing (currently), until the context of what is being spoken about can be determined by the machine listening.

You could say that the infrastructure isn't there to support such a system - I would say that the foundations are there, in place, and in time, people will love them for making their lives easier.

So if the infrastructure isn't there, and only the foundations are, then you agree it isn't happening, right?

[Skidder.]

Yes, as I said in my post, he's talking about his 2016 personal project which was to make his own 'Jarvis' - a home AI.


So which is it? First you say there isn't voice tapping going on for commercial purposes, then you say there are adverts which are linked to what people have discussed around their phones - which is about a commercial purpose as you can get.

Both.

Again, as I said in my post, it's from a much bigger piece he wrote regarding the issues he found during his 2016 personal project of creating his own home AI.

I think it's pretty clear what he is saying - the tech isn't there at the moment for a computer system to listen to conversational speech and understand it. Conversational speech is exactly what we do around our phones, hence me bringing this quote into this thread, as it's relevant.


'Hotwords' are fine for structured speech, as Zuckerberg points out. So if you're giving commands or answering questions in a set way ('Yes', 'No', 'Play X song'). This is absolutely no use for advertising. None, what so ever.

In that context, of course.

I laughed with my mates about Everton the other day, the 'hotword' picked out would no doubt be "Everton". Do you think then targeting Everton related adverts to me is a good fit? Do you think advertisers will be willing to pay money to target their adverts to me based on that? Nope.

I don't know, have you had any Everton-related adverts?

You, and others who thing this may happen, have given plenty of other bad targeting examples in this thread too which shows it would be an utterly pointless thing (currently), until the context of what is being spoken about can be determined by the machine listening.

It isn't an utterly pointless thing.

So if the infrastructure isn't there, and only the foundations are, then you agree it isn't happening, right?

No, I don't agree.

[oojason]

Facebook Knows A Lot About Your “Offline Life” Too, Without Even Telling You...

(I will look for you, I will find you, and I will track you)

https://fossbytes.com/facebook-knows-a-lot-about-your-offline-life-too-without-even-telling-you/

[The Last Known Survivor]

Girlfriend on the phone beside me talking about health insurance to a friend in America,  go to football 365 and the add at the top of the page is for vhi.

[Alan_X]

It doesn't ever happen to me. Why is that? I get annoying ads for things I'ved looked at or searched for but things I've said? Nothing.

[oojason]

It doesn't ever happen to me. Why is that? I get annoying ads for things I'ved looked at or searched for but things I've said? Nothing.

They have you on 'ignore', Mr X - some of your many and vivid conspiracy theories in real life are just too close to the truth... (even for the bods at the mass surveillance dept)

[Jake]

I fucking hate Facebook, the way it knows everything. In my "people you may know" section, there's my plumber (no mutual friends, not from my town, been to my house three times and I have his number but that's it) and the guy who runs a gym I went to last year (different town, no shared friends).

[Elmo!]

I fucking hate Facebook, the way it knows everything. In my "people you may know" section, there's my plumber (no mutual friends, not from my town, been to my house three times and I have his number but that's it) and the guy who runs a gym I went to last year (different town, no shared friends).

Facebook is no doubt using Wifi scanning and noticed that your plumbers phone was within range of the wifi network you are usually connected to i.e. your home wifi.

[Lfsea]

I fucking hate Facebook, the way it knows everything. In my "people you may know" section, there's my plumber (no mutual friends, not from my town, been to my house three times and I have his number but that's it) and the guy who runs a gym I went to last year (different town, no shared friends).

My life has been 500x easier since I got rid of Facebook. Friends that are actually friends have my mobile number, the rest that never contacted me after I got rid of it weren't really friends anyway.

Don't have to read about someone I've not seen since 1998 cooking a carrot cake, or going to their cousin's to have a boring game of rounders with kids I've never met. Bliss.

[CraigDS]

Facebook is no doubt using Wifi scanning and noticed that your plumbers phone was within range of the wifi network you are usually connected to i.e. your home wifi.

They've already confirmed it's partly based on if you log in from similar locations, so that's definitely part of the reason they'll come up as people he possibly knows.

[Elmo!]

They've already confirmed it's partly based on if you log in from similar locations, so that's definitely part of the reason they'll come up as people he possibly knows.

I know but GPS on it's own isn't as accurate as wifi combined with GPS - Google do the same wifi scanning for their location tracking.

[Barneylfc∗]

Not specific to do with this thread, but not worthy of it's own. Is there a way to find out if your WhatsApp has been hacked? Basically, I sent something to someone a couple of weeks ago. No one else will have known I sent this except myself and the recipient. Now, tonight, someone else has confronted me about it. This person does not know the recipient, and the recipient would have absolutely no reason to tell anyone what it was that I sent, or even that I sent it.

[rob1966]

On Sunday I was sat on the couch, doing a bit of Spanish learning on Duolingo *using Chrome as my browser). On telly I had a documentary about Oceanic White Tip sharks, a shark I wasn't familiar with. The narrator was talking about how the white tip has killed more people than any other shark due to shipwrecks and plane crashes and then mentioned the scene from Jaws where Robert Shaw talks about the USS Indianapolis sinking and sharks eating the survivors. I opened a new tab and started typing US and the USS Indianapolis was the first entry Google auto suggested. Had a quick read then hit back and typed in Ocean and Oceanic White Tip shark was again the first auto option. Thought it a bit strange but then assumed it was just they get searched for a lot.

Now, the kids laptops weren't in the room and today I remembered this thread, so tonight I got my youngest (he's 6) to type USS into Google and the Indianapolis was lower than the Enterprise, Nimitz and a few others. Then I got him to type Oceanic and all kind of stuff like research places came up and again the shark was way down the list.

[rob1966]

I fucking hate Facebook, the way it knows everything. In my "people you may know" section, there's my plumber (no mutual friends, not from my town, been to my house three times and I have his number but that's it) and the guy who runs a gym I went to last year (different town, no shared friends).

I've got the mobile numbers of two lads at work on my phone. Facebook has suggested both their wives as people I may know, so its obviously linking my contacts and their contacts and trying to get us to friend up.

I was in Tenerife a couple of weeks ago, I'm now getting loads of LFC feeds, in Spanish, suggested to me.

[Skidder.]

On Sunday I was sat on the couch, doing a bit of Spanish learning on Duolingo *using Chrome as my browser). On telly I had a documentary about Oceanic White Tip sharks, a shark I wasn't familiar with. The narrator was talking about how the white tip has killed more people than any other shark due to shipwrecks and plane crashes and then mentioned the scene from Jaws where Robert Shaw talks about the USS Indianapolis sinking and sharks eating the survivors. I opened a new tab and started typing US and the USS Indianapolis was the first entry Google auto suggested. Had a quick read then hit back and typed in Ocean and Oceanic White Tip shark was again the first auto option. Thought it a bit strange but then assumed it was just they get searched for a lot.

Now, the kids laptops weren't in the room and today I remembered this thread, so tonight I got my youngest (he's 6) to type USS into Google and the Indianapolis was lower than the Enterprise, Nimitz and a few others. Then I got him to type Oceanic and all kind of stuff like research places came up and again the shark was way down the list.

Installed a new OS on my phone the other day and there was an opt-in section that I'd never seen before that asked if I consented to Google using my data to improve their service - after reading the terms and conditions I saw that one two of the services were location services and "Ok Google".

Some folk still aren't convinced - in this case, there is only one explanation.

[Graeme]

Fucking hell.

Google search suggestions and instant search results are based on recent searches by other people. If there's a documentary has been on TV then it's a fair shout that other people will have then been searching for topics covered in a documentary and that's where your search suggestion comes from.