Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 v 1 Brighton Alzate 55’

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Thanks for that.  I think I may need additional help though because while I can do that on a laptop, I use an iPad and don’t know how to highlight text other than ‘select all’ which doesn’t do the same thing.

Hmm.  You should be able to press your thumb down on the first word of the section of text you want to delete.  then drag the little blue dot at the bottom of the end of that word over the rest of the section you want to get rid of then delete it.

[BJ]

Hmm.  You should be able to press your thumb down on the first word of the section of text you want to delete. .

Just had a go on your quote. Magic , thanks. 

[Timbo's Goals]

Mate I can’t remember what I had for my dinner yesterday so something from 50 years ago ...

ha ha

 

As it happens, I was at the game when he scored his hat trick and I can't remember anything about it at all except that we all came out thinking we'd found the new Alf Arrowsmith. I also seem to remember a photo of him grinning with a guitar when we got him from Sheffield Wednesday. Might be totally wrong but I can picture it now.

And then - nothing. He just seemed to disappear off the radar.

[BJ]

ha ha

 

As it happens, I was at the game when he scored his hat trick and I can't remember anything about it at all except that we all came out thinking we'd found the new Alf Arrowsmith. I also seem to remember a photo of him grinning with a guitar when we got him from Sheffield Wednesday. Might be totally wrong but I can picture it now.

And then - nothing. He just seemed to disappear off the radar.

I asked my best mate about him and he said “ah Jacky Whitham”.  I said “ you remember him then?”  and he said “no, just the name somewhere in my memory but that’s all”.   

So your hunt goes on ...

[Timbo's Goals]

I asked my best mate about him and he said “ah Jacky Whitham”.  I said “ you remember him then?”  and he said “no, just the name somewhere in my memory but that’s all”.   

So your hunt goes on ...

Off the top of my head I'm sure he played up front alongside a guy called Alan Warboys for Sheff Wed. Now if I'm right about that then I'm impressing myself!! Big Style.

 

Gonna look it up right now on Google.

 

[BJ]

I did a google image search and Whitham appeared on a Merseyside Players Who Peaked Too Soon XI - Chris Kirkland, Robert Warzycha, Max Thompson, Alex Nyarko, Billy Kenny, Jack Whitham, Alan Waddle, Alan Biley, Rob Wakenshaw, Mike Trebilcock, Alun Evans

PS: sorry for derailing the thread.

[keyop]

It is simply beyond me as a supporter to comprehend how anyone who knows the merest thing about this game of ours can expect the repeatedly makeshift sides we've been forced to field all season to perform with any consistency to the level we all crave and have been privileged to witness over the previous three high octane seasons.

It is simply not possible.

The fact we are still somehow so reasonably well placed in both Premier League and Champions league in the face of the unparalleled adversity is a credit to Klopp and his staff and the players we have been able to field. Indeed, a real bonus at this moment which we should not be taking as much for granted as some of our followers seem to be.

I have followed this club since the days of the Boys pen in the late '50's and I can assure everyone on this board that this is not simply the worst injury crisis the club has ever experienced, it is two or three times worse than anything I recall and has wrought havoc with the team in a way I've never seen before.

How Jurgen has still managed to keep the show moreorless on the road I'm buggered if I know. I recall Shanks in the late '60's bemoaning bitterly that an early season injury to Alec Lindsey which forced Shanks to play Gordon Milne at left back was the difference between Liverpool winning the league and finishing behind the eventual champions.

One fucking long term injury!!! One!!!

God knows what the next four months holds in store - and who would put it past this team to still surprise us all - but for goodness sake let's all remember the stark reality of this season. That we have been well and truly fucked left, right and centre and that Klopp and the team need us to as supporters to stand firm and show our support in the only manner we currently can - which is on these godforsaken message boards.

And just as a reminder to everyone who might think I'm merely making excuses I'm re-posting Keyop's brilliant analysis from just a week or so ago of exactly where we've been fucked right, left and centre. And bear in mind that since he wrote it we've gone on to lose three more world class players in Sadio, Fabinho and Allison - hopefully for a short term.

Eat your fucking heart out Shanks, my all time hero. You really think you were unlucky back then!! You really didn't know you were born mate 

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=346846.0

Thanks Timbo - the way some are going on, it's like we're hovering above the relegation zone and went out in the CL group stages. So much doom and gloom, and yet if we beat City we're 4 points behind with 45 still to play for.

As for my analysis - I actually posted it 4 days before Matip's season-ending injury, and as you said above - we've also had Mane, Fabinho and Alisson on the treatment table since then, plus we've bought two new centre backs who will need integrating.

Anyone expecting more than what we've done so far this season isn't being realistic or fair in my view, and if you don't think certain players are performing, well maybe they've got nothing more to give after the last 3 seasons and everything that's happened since September. Klopp is an incredible coach but he can't work miracles all the time and has had an entire careers worth of bad luck in 6 months.

There's no doubt people's views have been magnified by the pandemic, the global anxiety and injustices, the inability to express ourselves in the stands, and many other factors, but before laying into players, the owners, or the manager - fans need to have a little perspective on what has truly happened to us this season and just be grateful that we're still in the fight.

[4pool]

It is simply beyond me as a supporter to comprehend how anyone who knows the merest thing about this game of ours can expect the repeatedly makeshift sides we've been forced to field all season to perform with any consistency to the level we all crave and have been privileged to witness over the previous three high octane seasons.

It is simply not possible.

The fact we are still somehow so reasonably well placed in both Premier League and Champions league in the face of the unparalleled adversity is a credit to Klopp and his staff and the players we have been able to field. Indeed, a real bonus at this moment which we should not be taking as much for granted as some of our followers seem to be.

I have followed this club since the days of the Boys pen in the late '50's and I can assure everyone on this board that this is not simply the worst injury crisis the club has ever experienced, it is two or three times worse than anything I recall and has wrought havoc with the team in a way I've never seen before.

How Jurgen has still managed to keep the show moreorless on the road I'm buggered if I know. I recall Shanks in the late '60's bemoaning bitterly that an early season injury to Alec Lindsey which forced Shanks to play Gordon Milne at left back was the difference between Liverpool winning the league and finishing behind the eventual champions.

One fucking long term injury!!! One!!!

God knows what the next four months holds in store - and who would put it past this team to still surprise us all - but for goodness sake let's all remember the stark reality of this season. That we have been well and truly fucked left, right and centre and that Klopp and the team need us to as supporters to stand firm and show our support in the only manner we currently can - which is on these godforsaken message boards.

And just as a reminder to everyone who might think I'm merely making excuses I'm re-posting Keyop's brilliant analysis from just a week or so ago of exactly where we've been fucked right, left and centre. And bear in mind that since he wrote it we've gone on to lose three more world class players in Sadio, Fabinho and Allison - hopefully for a short term.

Eat your fucking heart out Shanks, my all time hero. You really think you were unlucky back then!! You really didn't know you were born mate 



KEYOP'S POST

After a dominant and scintillating demolition of Hodgson’s Palace, the media, fans, bookmakers, players and manager were indicating that all was good with Liverpool FC, and this could be a successful title defence that all the injuries and misfortune couldn’t alter - just as a pandemic couldn’t stop us last year.

Fast forward a mere 5 weeks and 5 premier league games, and the narrative seems very different. We’re no longer odds on favourites, our biggest rivals are top of the league and 6 points ahead of us, the injuries and the last 2 seasons have caught up with us, and the media, players and even Jurgen himself are no longer expressing the positivity of our pre-Christmas position. We haven’t become like this overnight or by chance, but judging by the way some fans are reacting, it would certainly seem that way. Questions about individual players, the manager, the owners, and the perceived lack of investment show that some people can swing from believers to doubters in a much shorter space of time than it took Klopp to convince us otherwise.

Like many other fans, I thought Palace was the turning point – a message to the rest of the league that we won’t give up without a fight, and that we are still the best team in the league. What has happened since is far more complex and nuanced than the media will have us believe, and isn’t just down to losing key players, some players being off form, a run of bad luck, or inconsistent VAR decisions. It’s all of these and much more, and we’ve seen it all played out on the pitch over the last 6 months.

This thread is about why we are in our current position, and what we can do to get out of it. I’m tired of reading lists of players that will solve everything for us, or players that we need to sell, or players that can’t be arsed, or what Jurgen is doing wrong - anyone peddling that on here has clearly been asleep since 2017 and forgotten that we were top on Christmas day.

Our last 5 games makes for difficult reading. A sequence of P5 W0 D3 L2 and 3 points is our worst run in a very long time, against opposition we despatched with clockwork regularity in the last 2 seasons. It’s also coincided with other teams putting together more consistent runs, and displacing us from 1st to 4th (and possibly down to 5th if Everton win on Wednesday). However, there are plenty of signs that all is not lost – our underlying numbers are still good, we are creating the chances, and as bad as this 5 game sequence looks - it does contain clean sheets and only 3 goals conceded - which may sound like clutching at straws, but at least shows we’re not being breached very often and nor have we had any collapses like the 7-2 at Villa. Our defensive woes are creating all sorts of issues further forward, but they are not resulting in Alisson picking the ball out of the net any more often than last season – and certainly not since we lost Virgil and Gomez.

Losing our home record is disappointing but it was always going to happen at some point. A win against Burnley last week and suddenly its corner turned, home record preserved, and onto Utd today to get our momentum going again. Fine margins. A home 1-0 loss to Burnley would also have seemed much less of an issue in amongst a few wins. Clearly losing the best defensive pairing in the world isn’t the only issue, any more than buying a centre back would solve all our problems (although I do think a new CB is a big part of the overall solution - at least in the short-medium term).

I posted the summary below in another thread before the Burnley game, and that thread quickly descended into the usual kneejerk hyperbole that is sadly as predictable as night turns to day for some of our fan base. I’d argue that the challenges faced by Klopp and our squad are unlike anything any of us have seen before, and the chain reaction of events since that fateful day at Goodison Park have created a set of circumstances, patterns, and dilemmas that even a coach like Klopp can’t easily fix.


Virgil gets injured, so we play Matip with Gomez. No doubt a drop in quality, but manageable and still one of the best pairings in the league. We lose Virgil’s arial dominance at both ends of the pitch.

Thiago gets injured – just after we’d seen him break the PL record for most passes and pass accuracy in his first 45 minutes versus Chelsea. We were great without him, but no doubt a big blow to Klopp and the team who would’ve been excited at the prospect of him taking us to the next level.

Gomez gets injured so we play Fabinho with Matip. The defensive line moves back, and the midfield move back. We lose the pace of Virgil and Gomez, who were both great at bringing it out of defence and setting up attacks. Lets also not forget that those two seemed to forge an almost telepathic understanding over the last 2 seasons – something that is irreplaceable in any team.

Jota gets injured – an astute signing that very few of us expected, who added a different dimension to our attack, allowed us to rotate the forwards, and scored vital goals. His absence has been felt as much as anyone.

Trent and Robertson become more risk-averse as they know Matip and Fabinho don’t have the recovery pace, so don’t bomb forward as much – even if Henderson has the legs to help cover both sides.

The front 3 see less overlapping attacks from the fullbacks, and play is slower with more touches taken and a little indecisiveness creeping in as the team slowly adjusts to the situation. Our speed in transition has dropped significantly, and the fearless runs forward where we overwhelmed the opposition just aren't there due to the necessary adjustments we've made all over the pitch.

With less threat from our full backs, Mane and Salah drift out wide more often, where they’re perfectly capable of beating their man, but are far less of a goal threat.

Our press is nowhere near as effective without Fabinho and Henderson playing in midfield, which gives the opposition more time on the ball and more time to regain their shape when they've lost possession. They are two of the fittest , most versatile, and positionally-aware midfielders in Europe, and the drop in quality to Keita, Ox, Milner or Jones is massive.

The opposition adjust to our new situation - instead of having to deal with our front 3, plus our full backs and a midfielder marauding forward (a 6-man attack at times), opposition defences can start to play narrower, creating a wall for us to get through, and less gaps for us to break the lines. We often resort to deep crosses from the fullbacks or Henderson to mitigate this, which are far easier to defend against.

Matip gets injured again, and whilst we initially played untested players at CB earlier in the season, Klopp pairs Henderson with Fabinho for some stability. Our defensive line drops even deeper due to the lack of pace to deal with counter attacks, which naturally pulls our midfield back. Without Thiago we lack a complete midfield controller. Without Henderson covering every blade of grass, some gaps start to appear in our shape. Our position on the pitch during games is often markedly different to last season where we compressed the play, forced mistakes and regained possession high up the pitch which led to so many goals.

Without both Henderson and Fabinho, our midfield and attacking shape changes. Players like Kieta and Ox are in and out of the team due to injury or form, and Wijnaldum plays virtually every game and can’t do it all himself. Jones had showed great promise early on but will need time to settle and find consistency. Players like Minamino and Origi show glimpses but can’t step up to fill the gap in quality. Shaqiri looks a stronger option but hasn’t got the consistency of fitness or form to be a guaranteed long-term solution.

With so many injuries and so many changes to our line-ups, our rhythm inevitably drops and our form is affected. The speed of our play is slower and there is a hesitancy in some of our moves, players start misplacing passes, with the front often 3 snatching at chances and receiving the ball in less dangerous positions.

There is unfamiliarity between players right across the pitch. They might see each other every day in training, but nothing compares to a competitive match for team chemistry and understanding. Players that would see familiar teammates next to them are seeing different faces, players out of position, players making runs they’re not used to, and with all due to respect to some of them - players that are of a lower quality. Wijnaldum has played with just about every possible different combination of players already and doesn't have Fabinho and Henderson beside him. Midfielders coming back from injury or poor form are trying to replicate a system that has an energy and ability they can't match, and they no longer have the fullbacks as a regular attacking outball, and are drawn deeper to protect the defence. Firmino's role is less clear, as he's torn between playing deeper or making runs, and he sees Mane/Salah out wide more often and marked more closely. Mane/Salah are missing the benefits of a high defensive line and a midfield press that saw them regularly receive the ball in transition with the opposition completely out of shape and red shirts swarming into the box.

The psychological effects of seeing teammates have season-ending or medium-term injuries cannot be understated – especially when its our best players who were instrumental to everything we’ve achieved under Klopp. These are mentality monsters but also human beings. The media, fans, players, and even Klopp himself have adopted a more downbeat tone recently, with Klopp in particular looking off form and a bit spiky in front of the camera. He remains a great leader and coach, but there's no doubt this has all taken its toll on him and the players, and he must be gutted to see all the hard work of the last few years be undone by so many injuries to key players.

The lack of fans is also a massive factor for us, and whilst this is the same situation for all clubs, there's no doubting the difference we make in the stands, and the connection we create with the manager and players when they need a lift. To make matters worse, opposition players and the officials aren't experiencing the power of Anfield, which we know down the years plays a big part in how games turn out. Just ask Messi.

Add in other short term injuries (Alisson, Trent, Milner, Tsimikas, Fabinho, Henderson), plus the VAR inconsistencies that have impacted us (and benefited our rivals), plus players having/recovering from Covid, and it’s been a fairly traumatic 6 months for the whole club. The players are also no doubt carrying some mental and physical fatigue from the herculean efforts of the last 2-3 seasons.


I've highlighted in bold what we've faced, which is unlike anything I've ever seen. These aren’t excuses for our current position. They are the reasons. Anyone in doubt about player quality, motivation, effort, or form simply needs to read all of statements in bold and ask themselves what would happen at other clubs under the same circumstances.

People slagging off individual players need to remember we were top on Christmas day and this is arguably the first difficult patch any of these players have hit in 3 seasons. Those suggesting we need to dismantle the team, or sell key players who might be past their peak are overlooking the fact that we’d probably be well clear of the pack again without the issues we’ve faced. We added Thiago and Jota as the cherry on the cake after last season, and with those two plus a fully fit squad we’d be unstoppable. People slagging off our 'tight' owners for not buying more players need to go for a walk in Stanley Park and look at that beautiful main stand. Go to Kirkby and see our state-of-the-art new training complex, check out the plans for the new Anfield Road stand, and remember it was FSG that brought Klopp to the club in the first place. Expecting owners to be devoted, charitable football lovers is naive in the extreme - this isn't the 1980's, and football has been on this financial trajectory for over 3 decades now. We’re also in the middle of a pandemic, which is a financial caveat that cannot be ignored.

I do wonder if Utd being top is more of a factor for some fans, and if we’d had this poor run and it was City, Leicester, or Spurs top of the league, perhaps there would be a little more calm and less knee jerking. Taking into account all of the factors listed above we’re doing incredibly well to still be in the hunt. It's not even halfway for us yet, and as we’ve seen with other teams – the table is so compressed and unpredictable that you can go from mid-table to top (or from top to 7th/8th) in a short space of time this season, so if we can find solutions to some of the above issues then we have every chance of number 20 this year.

It won’t be easy and might not happen overnight, but we are a club that always triumphs in the face of adversity like no-one else can, and keeps on fighting no matter what. Klopp, his staff and these players will find solutions and the form and results will return. Thiago is finding his feet, Jota is on his way back, and we might still buy a CB this transfer window. It’s unlikely that we will get the same bad luck and injuries in the second half of the season, and more likely that other teams might have similar issues (De Bruyne and Vardy out for 4-6 weeks shows that no team is indestructible). There is also no doubting that City, Leicester, Utd and Spurs are far more reliant on one or two individual players than we are, and I’d argue that Utd are a Fernandez injury away from a collapse – just like city with Laporte last season.

So where do we go from here – buy a CB? Change the formation? Go heavy metal and play risk/reward football until May? Or stick where we are and play our way back into form and out of this situation?

We are only 18 games in and a lot can (and will) change for us, and for all the other teams over the coming months. This is arguably the biggest test Klopp and these players have faced, but I have complete faith that they will find a way. As always with this wonderful club, when we’re in the middle of the storm we will always walk on until we find the golden sky.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=346846.0

This post should be required reading. 


Of course those who rely on twitter with funny meme's won't bother. To fucking long for them.

I can't add much to this. It is to brilliantly put. And we're still in the same boat. A boat with supposed Believers jumping ship because the water got a little rough.

It's hard to retain the Title. Few teams have done it. City were 18 points behind us last season. Complained about one injury to Leporte as the main reason. And look what we've had to deal with. But no, some can't be arsed.

We will regroup. We will come back stronger, even if it isn't this season.

Up The Mighty Fucking Reds !! 

[Dr. Beaker]

I'm sure I remember Witham playing in a right ding-dong match against (I think) West Ham. It was real end to end stuff  and we were 2-3 down very late on and Witham scored an equaliser (or maybe even a winner, not sure) but the goal at the Kop end got booed by the Kop because he had fouled the keeper. We were secretly delighted but booed to show solidarity with WHU for making such a great game of it.

If this was on the arlarse thread Manilla Vanilla would now come along and correct all the details or more often than not prove that my whole recollection is bollocks, but I might get away with it on here.

[So… Howard Philips]

Bloodyhell - he was there for FOUR years!! Good grief. Seemed like 4 weeks. Memory huh? Like you BJ. Shanks must have hidden him away in the fuckin attic.

 

Thanks for links IDONTKNOW

 

I seem to remember him briefly playing in golden autumn weather in 1970, then being replaced by John McLaughlin and the Echo's interest in Boersma dating Sharon Maughan.


1969/1970 - Shankly's Wilderness Years 

[So… Howard Philips]

I did a google image search and Whitham appeared on a Merseyside Players Who Peaked Too Soon XI - Chris Kirkland, Robert Warzycha, Max Thompson, Alex Nyarko, Billy Kenny, Jack Whitham, Alan Waddle, Alan Biley, Rob Wakenshaw, Mike Trebilcock, Alun Evans

PS: sorry for derailing the thread.

Your contribution reminds me of the 'circuitous conversations' I have with my mates after a couple of pints.

'Do you remember when Martin Chivers.......and within minutes the conversation has moved through a labyrinth of connections to talking about Ian Andersson playing flute recitals to preserve the fabric of ancient cathedrals.

Due to covid I've missed those chats so memories of Jack Witham keep me sane.

[Kopenhagen]

This isn't about me, it's about you posting shite like that after a defeat at home to Brighton.
If you can't be arsed in the bad times then don't be fucking arsed in the good.

Sorry, I’ll go have a cry in the corner; that’ll help.

[jillcwhomever]

It is simply beyond me as a supporter to comprehend how anyone who knows the merest thing about this game of ours can expect the repeatedly makeshift sides we've been forced to field all season to perform with any consistency to the level we all crave and have been privileged to witness over the previous three high octane seasons.

It is simply not possible.

The fact we are still somehow so reasonably well placed in both Premier League and Champions league in the face of the unparalleled adversity is a credit to Klopp and his staff and the players we have been able to field. Indeed, a real bonus at this moment which we should not be taking as much for granted as some of our followers seem to be.

I have followed this club since the days of the Boys pen in the late '50's and I can assure everyone on this board that this is not simply the worst injury crisis the club has ever experienced, it is two or three times worse than anything I recall and has wrought havoc with the team in a way I've never seen before.

How Jurgen has still managed to keep the show moreorless on the road I'm buggered if I know. I recall Shanks in the late '60's bemoaning bitterly that an early season injury to Alec Lindsey which forced Shanks to play Gordon Milne at left back was the difference between Liverpool winning the league and finishing behind the eventual champions.

One fucking long term injury!!! One!!!

God knows what the next four months holds in store - and who would put it past this team to still surprise us all - but for goodness sake let's all remember the stark reality of this season. That we have been well and truly fucked left, right and centre and that Klopp and the team need us to as supporters to stand firm and show our support in the only manner we currently can - which is on these godforsaken message boards.

And just as a reminder to everyone who might think I'm merely making excuses I'm re-posting Keyop's brilliant analysis from just a week or so ago of exactly where we've been fucked right, left and centre. And bear in mind that since he wrote it we've gone on to lose three more world class players in Sadio, Fabinho and Allison - hopefully for a short term.

Eat your fucking heart out Shanks, my all time hero. You really think you were unlucky back then!! You really didn't know you were born mate 



KEYOP'S POST

After a dominant and scintillating demolition of Hodgson’s Palace, the media, fans, bookmakers, players and manager were indicating that all was good with Liverpool FC, and this could be a successful title defence that all the injuries and misfortune couldn’t alter - just as a pandemic couldn’t stop us last year.

Fast forward a mere 5 weeks and 5 premier league games, and the narrative seems very different. We’re no longer odds on favourites, our biggest rivals are top of the league and 6 points ahead of us, the injuries and the last 2 seasons have caught up with us, and the media, players and even Jurgen himself are no longer expressing the positivity of our pre-Christmas position. We haven’t become like this overnight or by chance, but judging by the way some fans are reacting, it would certainly seem that way. Questions about individual players, the manager, the owners, and the perceived lack of investment show that some people can swing from believers to doubters in a much shorter space of time than it took Klopp to convince us otherwise.

Like many other fans, I thought Palace was the turning point – a message to the rest of the league that we won’t give up without a fight, and that we are still the best team in the league. What has happened since is far more complex and nuanced than the media will have us believe, and isn’t just down to losing key players, some players being off form, a run of bad luck, or inconsistent VAR decisions. It’s all of these and much more, and we’ve seen it all played out on the pitch over the last 6 months.

This thread is about why we are in our current position, and what we can do to get out of it. I’m tired of reading lists of players that will solve everything for us, or players that we need to sell, or players that can’t be arsed, or what Jurgen is doing wrong - anyone peddling that on here has clearly been asleep since 2017 and forgotten that we were top on Christmas day.

Our last 5 games makes for difficult reading. A sequence of P5 W0 D3 L2 and 3 points is our worst run in a very long time, against opposition we despatched with clockwork regularity in the last 2 seasons. It’s also coincided with other teams putting together more consistent runs, and displacing us from 1st to 4th (and possibly down to 5th if Everton win on Wednesday). However, there are plenty of signs that all is not lost – our underlying numbers are still good, we are creating the chances, and as bad as this 5 game sequence looks - it does contain clean sheets and only 3 goals conceded - which may sound like clutching at straws, but at least shows we’re not being breached very often and nor have we had any collapses like the 7-2 at Villa. Our defensive woes are creating all sorts of issues further forward, but they are not resulting in Alisson picking the ball out of the net any more often than last season – and certainly not since we lost Virgil and Gomez.

Losing our home record is disappointing but it was always going to happen at some point. A win against Burnley last week and suddenly its corner turned, home record preserved, and onto Utd today to get our momentum going again. Fine margins. A home 1-0 loss to Burnley would also have seemed much less of an issue in amongst a few wins. Clearly losing the best defensive pairing in the world isn’t the only issue, any more than buying a centre back would solve all our problems (although I do think a new CB is a big part of the overall solution - at least in the short-medium term).

I posted the summary below in another thread before the Burnley game, and that thread quickly descended into the usual kneejerk hyperbole that is sadly as predictable as night turns to day for some of our fan base. I’d argue that the challenges faced by Klopp and our squad are unlike anything any of us have seen before, and the chain reaction of events since that fateful day at Goodison Park have created a set of circumstances, patterns, and dilemmas that even a coach like Klopp can’t easily fix.


Virgil gets injured, so we play Matip with Gomez. No doubt a drop in quality, but manageable and still one of the best pairings in the league. We lose Virgil’s arial dominance at both ends of the pitch.

Thiago gets injured – just after we’d seen him break the PL record for most passes and pass accuracy in his first 45 minutes versus Chelsea. We were great without him, but no doubt a big blow to Klopp and the team who would’ve been excited at the prospect of him taking us to the next level.

Gomez gets injured so we play Fabinho with Matip. The defensive line moves back, and the midfield move back. We lose the pace of Virgil and Gomez, who were both great at bringing it out of defence and setting up attacks. Lets also not forget that those two seemed to forge an almost telepathic understanding over the last 2 seasons – something that is irreplaceable in any team.

Jota gets injured – an astute signing that very few of us expected, who added a different dimension to our attack, allowed us to rotate the forwards, and scored vital goals. His absence has been felt as much as anyone.

Trent and Robertson become more risk-averse as they know Matip and Fabinho don’t have the recovery pace, so don’t bomb forward as much – even if Henderson has the legs to help cover both sides.

The front 3 see less overlapping attacks from the fullbacks, and play is slower with more touches taken and a little indecisiveness creeping in as the team slowly adjusts to the situation. Our speed in transition has dropped significantly, and the fearless runs forward where we overwhelmed the opposition just aren't there due to the necessary adjustments we've made all over the pitch.

With less threat from our full backs, Mane and Salah drift out wide more often, where they’re perfectly capable of beating their man, but are far less of a goal threat.

Our press is nowhere near as effective without Fabinho and Henderson playing in midfield, which gives the opposition more time on the ball and more time to regain their shape when they've lost possession. They are two of the fittest , most versatile, and positionally-aware midfielders in Europe, and the drop in quality to Keita, Ox, Milner or Jones is massive.

The opposition adjust to our new situation - instead of having to deal with our front 3, plus our full backs and a midfielder marauding forward (a 6-man attack at times), opposition defences can start to play narrower, creating a wall for us to get through, and less gaps for us to break the lines. We often resort to deep crosses from the fullbacks or Henderson to mitigate this, which are far easier to defend against.

Matip gets injured again, and whilst we initially played untested players at CB earlier in the season, Klopp pairs Henderson with Fabinho for some stability. Our defensive line drops even deeper due to the lack of pace to deal with counter attacks, which naturally pulls our midfield back. Without Thiago we lack a complete midfield controller. Without Henderson covering every blade of grass, some gaps start to appear in our shape. Our position on the pitch during games is often markedly different to last season where we compressed the play, forced mistakes and regained possession high up the pitch which led to so many goals.

Without both Henderson and Fabinho, our midfield and attacking shape changes. Players like Kieta and Ox are in and out of the team due to injury or form, and Wijnaldum plays virtually every game and can’t do it all himself. Jones had showed great promise early on but will need time to settle and find consistency. Players like Minamino and Origi show glimpses but can’t step up to fill the gap in quality. Shaqiri looks a stronger option but hasn’t got the consistency of fitness or form to be a guaranteed long-term solution.

With so many injuries and so many changes to our line-ups, our rhythm inevitably drops and our form is affected. The speed of our play is slower and there is a hesitancy in some of our moves, players start misplacing passes, with the front often 3 snatching at chances and receiving the ball in less dangerous positions.

There is unfamiliarity between players right across the pitch. They might see each other every day in training, but nothing compares to a competitive match for team chemistry and understanding. Players that would see familiar teammates next to them are seeing different faces, players out of position, players making runs they’re not used to, and with all due to respect to some of them - players that are of a lower quality. Wijnaldum has played with just about every possible different combination of players already and doesn't have Fabinho and Henderson beside him. Midfielders coming back from injury or poor form are trying to replicate a system that has an energy and ability they can't match, and they no longer have the fullbacks as a regular attacking outball, and are drawn deeper to protect the defence. Firmino's role is less clear, as he's torn between playing deeper or making runs, and he sees Mane/Salah out wide more often and marked more closely. Mane/Salah are missing the benefits of a high defensive line and a midfield press that saw them regularly receive the ball in transition with the opposition completely out of shape and red shirts swarming into the box.

The psychological effects of seeing teammates have season-ending or medium-term injuries cannot be understated – especially when its our best players who were instrumental to everything we’ve achieved under Klopp. These are mentality monsters but also human beings. The media, fans, players, and even Klopp himself have adopted a more downbeat tone recently, with Klopp in particular looking off form and a bit spiky in front of the camera. He remains a great leader and coach, but there's no doubt this has all taken its toll on him and the players, and he must be gutted to see all the hard work of the last few years be undone by so many injuries to key players.

The lack of fans is also a massive factor for us, and whilst this is the same situation for all clubs, there's no doubting the difference we make in the stands, and the connection we create with the manager and players when they need a lift. To make matters worse, opposition players and the officials aren't experiencing the power of Anfield, which we know down the years plays a big part in how games turn out. Just ask Messi.

Add in other short term injuries (Alisson, Trent, Milner, Tsimikas, Fabinho, Henderson), plus the VAR inconsistencies that have impacted us (and benefited our rivals), plus players having/recovering from Covid, and it’s been a fairly traumatic 6 months for the whole club. The players are also no doubt carrying some mental and physical fatigue from the herculean efforts of the last 2-3 seasons.


I've highlighted in bold what we've faced, which is unlike anything I've ever seen. These aren’t excuses for our current position. They are the reasons. Anyone in doubt about player quality, motivation, effort, or form simply needs to read all of statements in bold and ask themselves what would happen at other clubs under the same circumstances.

People slagging off individual players need to remember we were top on Christmas day and this is arguably the first difficult patch any of these players have hit in 3 seasons. Those suggesting we need to dismantle the team, or sell key players who might be past their peak are overlooking the fact that we’d probably be well clear of the pack again without the issues we’ve faced. We added Thiago and Jota as the cherry on the cake after last season, and with those two plus a fully fit squad we’d be unstoppable. People slagging off our 'tight' owners for not buying more players need to go for a walk in Stanley Park and look at that beautiful main stand. Go to Kirkby and see our state-of-the-art new training complex, check out the plans for the new Anfield Road stand, and remember it was FSG that brought Klopp to the club in the first place. Expecting owners to be devoted, charitable football lovers is naive in the extreme - this isn't the 1980's, and football has been on this financial trajectory for over 3 decades now. We’re also in the middle of a pandemic, which is a financial caveat that cannot be ignored.

I do wonder if Utd being top is more of a factor for some fans, and if we’d had this poor run and it was City, Leicester, or Spurs top of the league, perhaps there would be a little more calm and less knee jerking. Taking into account all of the factors listed above we’re doing incredibly well to still be in the hunt. It's not even halfway for us yet, and as we’ve seen with other teams – the table is so compressed and unpredictable that you can go from mid-table to top (or from top to 7th/8th) in a short space of time this season, so if we can find solutions to some of the above issues then we have every chance of number 20 this year.

It won’t be easy and might not happen overnight, but we are a club that always triumphs in the face of adversity like no-one else can, and keeps on fighting no matter what. Klopp, his staff and these players will find solutions and the form and results will return. Thiago is finding his feet, Jota is on his way back, and we might still buy a CB this transfer window. It’s unlikely that we will get the same bad luck and injuries in the second half of the season, and more likely that other teams might have similar issues (De Bruyne and Vardy out for 4-6 weeks shows that no team is indestructible). There is also no doubting that City, Leicester, Utd and Spurs are far more reliant on one or two individual players than we are, and I’d argue that Utd are a Fernandez injury away from a collapse – just like city with Laporte last season.

So where do we go from here – buy a CB? Change the formation? Go heavy metal and play risk/reward football until May? Or stick where we are and play our way back into form and out of this situation?

We are only 18 games in and a lot can (and will) change for us, and for all the other teams over the coming months. This is arguably the biggest test Klopp and these players have faced, but I have complete faith that they will find a way. As always with this wonderful club, when we’re in the middle of the storm we will always walk on until we find the golden sky.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=346846.0

So glad you are still popping in here and giving your wisdom of common sense, it's completely batty in the media with the way some are looking at Klopp at the moment. I think he's done a better job this season than last season. Just by keeping us relatively competitive through our worst injury crisis speaks volumes of the job he is doing. I don't think many managers could do a better job overall. The teams of old had the same four players in defence for virtually every game, when we were winning titles. The lunacy of this season just knows no bounds, but whatever happens we need to stay behind the manager and players.

[Thepooloflife]

This post should be required reading. 


Of course those who rely on twitter with funny meme's won't bother. To fucking long for them.

I can't add much to this. It is to brilliantly put. And we're still in the same boat. A boat with supposed Believers jumping ship because the water got a little rough.

It's hard to retain the Title. Few teams have done it. City were 18 points behind us last season. Complained about one injury to Leporte as the main reason. And look what we've had to deal with. But no, some can't be arsed.

We will regroup. We will come back stronger, even if it isn't this season.

Up The Mighty Fucking Reds !! 

Yeah, I agree and having read them they are a brilliant analysis of our situation - well done Timbo & Keyop.

Not quite sure why we have so many out injured, compared to others but do think certain circumstances have conspired against us - we'll get through it.

[BJ]

Your contribution reminds me of the 'circuitous conversations' I have with my mates after a couple of pints.

'Do you remember when Martin Chivers.......and within minutes the conversation has moved through a labyrinth of connections to talking about Ian Andersson playing flute recitals to preserve the fabric of ancient cathedrals.

Due to covid I've missed those chats so memories of Jack Witham keep me sane.

Happy to help.

Might be a good idea for a thread - Tenuous Links.

[vivabobbygraham]

It's not about brushing off a defeat, it's about having some dignity in how you conduct yourself after defeat. It's about taking triumph and disaster and treating both those imposters just the same.

Everyone is unhappy with a defeat; but people display it in different ways, and frankly some ways deserve to be classified as bedwetting because they are. No-one is forced to act like a mewling infant. There are more, I don't know, stoic ways, of reacting. And yes I know that football is emotional and catharsis is a big part of being a fan, and I agree with that; but there are ways and there are ways...

See my sig below. Good post.

Timbo's goals, as always, succinctly puts our situation in perspective. I'll tell you something else and I'm really not arsed what people think about conspiracy theories, we're being reffed out of games...and the players on both sides know it. They know if they hit the deck they'll get a free kick, anywhere on the pitch. They just fall over. Our lads on the other hand, stay on their feet, fouled standing up, wrestled, grabbed, shirt pulled...nothing. Nada. Zilch. We are, without doubt, the most sportsmanlike team in the division by a country mile. Look at our players faces when these incessant cheap free kicks are given against us. They hardly bother complaining anymore, they just shake their heads. All designed to break up our play. Break our spirit. I believe they are weary of it. Sunday, whoever the ref is, you will see it again.

The boss knows it, too, he's alluded to it. Despite that, we are still in it, of course we are. Let City come and have a go at us, makes a change. They'll fancy it. Pep, apparently, wants a word with Jurgen? Well, he'll know where to find him. In the centre circle eyeballing his players in the warm up. Good luck with that, Pip! And good luck in the game...cos you're gonna need it...and the ref, do your fucking worse. We ain't getting beat Sunday...and anyone thinking otherwise is a fucking coward. Got to stay behind the team cos they're trying their hardest. Bounce back day and I can't wait

[Motty]

See my sig below. Good post.

Timbo's goals, as always, puts our situation in perspective. I'll tell you something else and I'm really not arsed what people think about conspiracy theories, we're being reffed out of games...and the players on both sides know it. They know if they hit the deck they'll get a free kick, anywhere on the pitch. They just fall over. Our lads on the other hand, stay on their feet, fouled standing up, wrestled, grabbed, shirt pulled...nothing. Nada. Zilch. We are, without doubt, the most sportsmanlike team in the division by a country mile. Look at our players faces when these incessant cheap free kicks are given against us. They hardly bother complaining anymore, they just shake their heads. All designed to break up our play. Break our spirit. I believe they are weary of it. Sunday, whoever the ref is, you will see it again.

The boss knows it, too, he's alluded to it. Despite that, we are still in it, of course we are. Let City come and have a go at us, makes a change. They'll fancy it. Pep, apparently, wants a word with Jurgen? Well, he'll know where to find him. In the centre circle eyeballing his players in the warm up. Good luck with that, Pip! And good luck in the game...cos you're gonna need it...and the ref, do your fucking worse. We ain't getting beat Sunday...and anyone thinking otherwise is a fucking coward. Got to stay behind the team cos they're trying their hardest. Bounce back day and I can't wait

Avoided this thread since Wednesday, first post I seen was yours so will just leave again now as nothing more needs to be said [emoji106]

C'mon Redmen, we will get through this I've no doubt about that.

[Timbo's Goals]

See my sig below. Good post.

Timbo's goals, as always, puts our situation in perspective. I'll tell you something else and I'm really not arsed what people think about conspiracy theories, we're being reffed out of games...and the players on both sides know it. They know if they hit the deck they'll get a free kick, anywhere on the pitch. They just fall over. Our lads on the other hand, stay on their feet, fouled standing up, wrestled, grabbed, shirt pulled...nothing. Nada. Zilch. We are, without doubt, the most sportsmanlike team in the division by a country mile. Look at our players faces when these incessant cheap free kicks are given against us. They hardly bother complaining anymore, they just shake their heads. All designed to break up our play. Break our spirit. I believe they are weary of it. Sunday, whoever the ref is, you will see it again.

The boss knows it, too, he's alluded to it. Despite that, we are still in it, of course we are. Let City come and have a go at us, makes a change. They'll fancy it. Pep, apparently, wants a word with Jurgen? Well, he'll know where to find him. In the centre circle eyeballing his players in the warm up. Good luck with that, Pip! And good luck in the game...cos you're gonna need it...and the ref, do your fucking worse. We ain't getting beat Sunday...and anyone thinking otherwise is a fucking coward. Got to stay behind the team cos they're trying their hardest. Bounce back day and I can't wait

Well in P lad.

And I agree re the decisions for innocuous contact fouls given to opposition with fuck all to us. At times it's blatant that refs are craving us to make contact and praying the opponent goes down. It does sound tin foil hat territory but it's currently our reality.

[Red_Mist]

See my sig below. Good post.

Timbo's goals, as always, puts our situation in perspective. I'll tell you something else and I'm really not arsed what people think about conspiracy theories, we're being reffed out of games...and the players on both sides know it. They know if they hit the deck they'll get a free kick, anywhere on the pitch. They just fall over. Our lads on the other hand, stay on their feet, fouled standing up, wrestled, grabbed, shirt pulled...nothing. Nada. Zilch. We are, without doubt, the most sportsmanlike team in the division by a country mile. Look at our players faces when these incessant cheap free kicks are given against us. They hardly bother complaining anymore, they just shake their heads. All designed to break up our play. Break our spirit. I believe they are weary of it. Sunday, whoever the ref is, you will see it again.

The boss knows it, too, he's alluded to it. Despite that, we are still in it, of course we are. Let City come and have a go at us, makes a change. They'll fancy it. Pep, apparently, wants a word with Jurgen? Well, he'll know where to find him. In the centre circle eyeballing his players in the warm up. Good luck with that, Pip! And good luck in the game...cos you're gonna need it...and the ref, do your fucking worse. We ain't getting beat Sunday...and anyone thinking otherwise is a fucking coward. Got to stay behind the team cos they're trying their hardest. Bounce back day and I can't wait

Love this.

[Black Bull Nova]

See my sig below. Good post.

Timbo's goals, as always, puts our situation in perspective. I'll tell you something else and I'm really not arsed what people think about conspiracy theories, we're being reffed out of games...and the players on both sides know it. They know if they hit the deck they'll get a free kick, anywhere on the pitch. They just fall over. Our lads on the other hand, stay on their feet, fouled standing up, wrestled, grabbed, shirt pulled...nothing. Nada. Zilch. We are, without doubt, the most sportsmanlike team in the division by a country mile. Look at our players faces when these incessant cheap free kicks are given against us. They hardly bother complaining anymore, they just shake their heads. All designed to break up our play. Break our spirit. I believe they are weary of it. Sunday, whoever the ref is, you will see it again.

The boss knows it, too, he's alluded to it. Despite that, we are still in it, of course we are. Let City come and have a go at us, makes a change. They'll fancy it. Pep, apparently, wants a word with Jurgen? Well, he'll know where to find him. In the centre circle eyeballing his players in the warm up. Good luck with that, Pip! And good luck in the game...cos you're gonna need it...and the ref, do your fucking worse. We ain't getting beat Sunday...and anyone thinking otherwise is a fucking coward. Got to stay behind the team cos they're trying their hardest. Bounce back day and I can't wait

Is a Liverpool response through and through

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Hope springs eternal when I get an opportunity to read the likes of Timbo, KeyOp, Ghosty, and VivaBG. 

Reminds me of an old room of friends working like different parts of clock, writers clicking, typing and thinking in ways that create hope -- because engaging the nuggets of meaning inside the maelstrom of exaggerated media bullshit gives one hope, that there are enough sensible people in the world to make it work.

Here is to you blokes this evening.  Hope is clicking!

[didi shamone]

Sorry mods I didn’t know where to post this please feel free to move.

Dear Rawk Colleagues
It’s my son Jake’s 17 bday today and we are massive reds. He’s currently undergoing chemotherapy and tackling Cancer and stuck in hospital- if anybody has a little time to wish him happy birthday that would be fab. I have posted via Twitter the link below if you could reply https://twitter.com/danwalker1973/status/1357339885795905538?s=21

Many thanks Dan

Sorry I'm not on Twitter but a whole hearted best wishes. Puts football woes in perspective.

[vivabobbygraham]

Sorry mods I didn’t know where to post this please feel free to move.

Dear Rawk Colleagues
It’s my son Jake’s 17 bday today and we are massive reds. He’s currently undergoing chemotherapy and tackling Cancer and stuck in hospital- if anybody has a little time to wish him happy birthday that would be fab. I have posted via Twitter the link below if you could reply https://twitter.com/danwalker1973/status/1357339885795905538?s=21

Many thanks Dan

Sorry, Dan, I don't do social media but I would love you to pass on my best wishes to your lad, Jake, and to you, mate. Together, you'll get each other through this. Youse are both in my thoughts and prayers, mate. Up the reds!

[Stubbins]

I did a google image search and Whitham appeared on a Merseyside Players Who Peaked Too Soon XI - Chris Kirkland, Robert Warzycha, Max Thompson, Alex Nyarko, Billy Kenny, Jack Whitham, Alan Waddle, Alan Biley, Rob Wakenshaw, Mike Trebilcock, Alun Evans

PS: sorry for derailing the thread.

Not a derailment, more a detour.

Here's a tenuous link. Alan Waddle is my wife's half cousin. Good old Geordie Wallsend folk. Mind you, she hasn't seen him since they were both kids and would you believe it, Alan wasn't too fussed about distant family visiting on a Sunday. He just wanted to be out in the street kicking a football around.

[BJ]

Not a derailment, more a detour.

Here's a tenuous link. Alan Waddle is my wife's half cousin. Good old Geordie Wallsend folk. Mind you, she hasn't seen him since they were both kids and would you believe it, Alan wasn't too fussed about distant family visiting on a Sunday. He just wanted to be out in the street kicking a football around.

Nice little story. 

Just wanted to add that I’m enjoying reading the positive posts on here.  I’m still too new to understand the forum dynamics, who’s who ect.  We’re all as fed up as each other atm so I’m clinging to any little scraps of light (if that’s not too many mixed metaphors) that I can.  It’s good to read all the honest opinions and everyone has a different take on things which is fascinating but personally, I’m in the looking forward with hope camp.