Topic: Greed in the short term but at what cost in the long term

[L666KOP]

There us another problem looming the price of satellite football games sky virgin and BT are looking to broadcast more premiershio games which will mean the package will go up substantially it's already £600 a year and rapidity heading to £1000 a year.   Soon watching a live game will be out of the reach of mist Liverpool fans.  I still have a season ticket but I share it there is no other way I can afford it I never go to cup games or buy any merchandise or anything else from the club.   The new TV deal is what could kill it for me altogether more and more I am finding the sport and Liverpool FC are my enemy it's only because of the going to the match with the same people for years I go without that aspect if I were to go on my own I would not not go to the games and I might pack in sky also.  At one time I used to go to almost every game home and most away games including some in Europe seems a long time ago now.  I am also very skeptical about this big waiting list I would like to see how many commit when faced with the reality of the cost most of the committed fans are already at anfield by definition and are the rump who have followed for decades and are holding in.  The replacements will be much more fickle I feel and the club are seeing a surety of income that won't be sustained once this rump of fans finally checks out.  That's when we will see the correction and I am looking forward to it.

Your fucking fault we're in this mess 

[Red_Mist]

There us another problem looming the price of satellite football games sky virgin and BT are looking to broadcast more premiershio games which will mean the package will go up substantially it's already £600 a year and rapidity heading to £1000 a year.   Soon watching a live game will be out of the reach of mist Liverpool fans.   I still have a season ticket but I share it there is no other way I can afford it I never go to cup games or buy any merchandise or anything else from the club.   The new TV deal is what could kill it for me altogether more and more I am finding the sport and Liverpool FC are my enemy it's only because of the going to the match with the same people for years I go without that aspect if I were to go on my own I would not not go to the games and I might pack in sky also.  At one time I used to go to almost every game home and most away games including some in Europe seems a long time ago now.  I am also very skeptical about this big waiting list I would like to see how many commit when faced with the reality of the cost most of the committed fans are already at anfield by definition and are the rump who have followed for decades and are holding in.  The replacements will be much more fickle I feel and the club are seeing a surety of income that won't be sustained once this rump of fans finally checks out.  That's when we will see the correction and I am looking forward to it. 

I think i agree with you. Very astute post. The fanbase may have changed...you can bet your bottom dollar, the replacements wont be nearly as loyal.

[Maggie May]

I've just been reading Peter McGurk's post in the Safe Standing thread - 5 reasons to support Dortmund.  They may as well be on another planet.  For instance - they won't increase the exec boxes because that would ruin the atmosphere! 

[Mutton Geoff]

I've just been reading Peter McGurk's post in the Safe Standing thread - 5 reasons to support Dortmund.  They may as well be on another planet.  For instance - they won't increase the exec boxes because that would ruin the atmosphere! 

Supporters have a greater voice in German football  hence their views are respected, something non existent here even with any fans committee,  no offence to the people that stepped forward but intrinsically they are toothless on the major issues and more a cosmetic addition to keep the plebs happy . 

[Always_A_Red]

SATURDAY DECEMBER 6TH 2014 - 3pm

Liverpool v Sunderland

Can we attempt to boycott this game? I don't just mean a few of us, im talking full blown, everyone. We all know the power that the 'Internet warriors' have on here to spread the word and get this sorted. We've organised bigger protests and won so we ca do this. We hae over a month to spread the word and act. 

Enough is enough. We need to make a stand. £53 to watch a game against a team regularly in the bottom half of the table is a disgrace. When will enough be enough if not now? When its £60? When its £75? That's exactly where we are heading. If we make a stand, other fans will follow suit but as usual it'll have to be us leading the way or this shit trend will continue. Im not prepared to sit here and be priced out of a game that I love. Its my life and means everything so we have to do something.

I have tickets for this from the members sale and I will be returning them. If EVERY member who bought them returns them and every STH that has a ticket returns theirs the club will have to take note and make changes or we will have to do it again & again.

Surely there's enough of here to spread the word? Surely if WE want this enough we can make it happen? Enough is Enough.

[Jake]

SATURDAY DECEMBER 6TH 2014 - 3pm

Liverpool v Sunderland

Can we attempt to boycott this game? I don't just mean a few of us, im talking full blown, everyone. We all know the power that the 'Internet warriors' have on here to spread the word and get this sorted. We've organised bigger protests and won so we ca do this. We hae over a month to spread the word and act. 

Enough is enough. We need to make a stand. £53 to watch a game against a team regularly in the bottom half of the table is a disgrace. When will enough be enough if not now? When its £60? When its £75? That's exactly where we are heading. If we make a stand, other fans will follow suit but as usual it'll have to be us leading the way or this shit trend will continue. Im not prepared to sit here and be priced out of a game that I love. Its my life and means everything so we have to do something.

I have tickets for this from the members sale and I will be returning them. If EVERY member who bought them returns them and every STH that has a ticket returns theirs the club will have to take note and make changes or we will have to do it again & again.

Surely there's enough of here to spread the word? Surely if WE want this enough we can make it happen? Enough is Enough.

Turn it into its own thread mate, PM SOS and other fan groups, get in contact with the Rattle and other forums.

I'm in, although I think it would make a bigger statement to buy tickets and leave seats empty, or leave at HT.

[Always_A_Red]

Turn it into its own thread mate, PM SOS and other fan groups, get in contact with the Rattle and other forums.

I'm in, although I think it would make a bigger statement to buy tickets and leave seats empty, or leave at HT.

Done.

Someone with links to SOS, fan groups and other forums, can you please spread the word?

I think returning the tickets so the club loses out on attendance money would be more powerful mate. It will send a clear message and hit them in the place it hurts the most , their bank balance. Hopefully other clubs will then follow suit and we'll see a shift.

[Maggie May]

Supporters have a greater voice in German football  hence their views are respected, something non existent here even with any fans committee,  no offence to the people that stepped forward but intrinsically they are toothless on the major issues and more a cosmetic addition to keep the plebs happy . 

Well I don't hold with this fans committee business.  I believe it was a manufactured thing to swerve the SoS - of which I am proud to be a member.  That was created by supporters for supporters not fucking fans.   There is a BIG difference.   

[keyo]

I do think that the continued "fleecing" of fans - as it is characterised - has achieved the growth in fanbases that it was intended to. What it has also achieved is to create a structure that supports itself top down. However, it means that you have to be in the higher echelons to thrive. It is not easy to improve, it takes time and a long term view but, as clubs like everton and tottenham will find, there remains a glass ceiling for clubs who do not have pots of cash to invest.  We were close to dropping below that ceiling, and still we have a long way to go to prove ourselves as continuously competitive.

The impact of dropping out of the top 5 as it currently is on a long term basis can be catastrophic. Leeds are man extreme, but their fall from grace showed the pressures on the top line of a clubs accounts. We have not seen one of the top clubs drop out of contention for long other than us, very nearly. So what will happen if one does? Will our support, for example, stand up to see our mid-table battles and total lack of progress? We went without cl football for  years, but had dalglish's return at a critical point in our decline. We have a great past, and staunch support, plus levels of optimism and belief that has sustained a generation that has seen Us surpassed in success by united, chelsea, arsenal and with city putting themselves up there. Would a ten year break outside the cl places impact us? I tend to think that whilst fans do not appear to be price sensitive, I suspect they are moreso when clubs fall below expectation.

Today's fans are accused of being fickle. Today's fans are "fleeced" by the clubs they prop up/support. Whilst neither situation brought about the other, they will as clubs struggle to meet expectations. Are fans entitled to higher expectations because they are paying more? Whilst all fans are different and demand is high, surviving an economic meltdown so I can't see tootball as a whole declining for a years yet. However, football's success does not guarantee every club will succeed. And those with the most to lose need to ensure success as that pressure on the top line will remain key to the club's who don't have have owners with deep pockets. Which, at the moment is city, united, and chelsea. Arsenal and lfc are well run and appear at little risk. But are any susceptible to a change in circumstances, or to a fall from grace and lack of success?

[Keith Lard]

I've had a season ticket for 37 years since I was 16. I did give it up for about 3 years when my kids were very young and I was still playing myself.

There have been many times since the advent of the Premiership when I've thought about jacking it in and going to watch Tranmere (I go there anyway 5 or 6 times a year) because of the sheer obscenity of the cost at Anfield and the general feeling that the club, and the premiership, is just a cash cow.

All premiership teams hide behind the notion of supply and demand. They are right, if I give up my ticket then there is always one of the 2000 who come from Oslo every home game who'll snap it up. A boycott just wouldn't work, even if we left the ground half empty. That said, personally, I would comply with, say, a walkout at halftime in any one given game.

I also feel that the club really does not want me to have my season ticket. I never go in the club shop or buy a programme, in fact I never buy any paraphernalia from the club other than tickets.

Actually, I don't just "feel" this about the club now, I "know" that is the case. My support over the years, including those days in the early 80s when we were getting home crowds lower than 30,000 (anyone recall 22,000 crowd v. Notts Co. on a Saturday?), means absolutely nothing to anyone anymore.

I'm probably being a bit harsh on the current regime as, to be honest, I've always felt that the club doesn't value me as a fan. The only times I have had a feeling that the club does "love me as a fan" have been in the face of adversity. I recall going on the special to the away game at Exeter in the days after Shankly died and a steward silently walked down the train handing out postcard sized pics of Shanks with the FA Cup. I still have it. I felt at one with the club at that time. The other time was in the post Hillsborough period when the ground was opened and, I don't know to explain really, I just felt the club did care about me.

I haven't yet jacked it in but, prior to last season, there were only two reasons I really kept forking out 2 weeks wages for my season ticket. One was fearing that I'd drift away from mates who I have known since I was at school and who meet in the pub before the match. The other is bloody mindedness. I want to give my youngest lad my season ticket and I won't be hounded out by the club.

Sorry about the rant.

Cracking post mate. I feel sad to see how distant us true supporters feel towards the club. How amazing the atmosphere would be if the likes of us could go to games at £15 a pop, support a club we feel love towards, and enjoy a great matchday atmosphere every week. Likes of Barcelona and Dortmund are so lucky.

This ticketing issue and fleecing of supporters really means more to true supporters than many would think. It creates distance between real supporters and the club, and then one day we are gone forever. Would you believe I was considering going to Meadow lane yesterday to see Notts county play, purely because it was nearby and I could afford a ticket. I just wanted to see football within my budget.

Going to see Liverpool or visiting Anfield is now just a pipe dream for me these days as I just can't afford it. The hassle of getting a ticket, The exorbitant cost of the ticket, expensive transport plus food and drink really is just too much. This country is just obsessed with money.

[CraigDS]

The hassle of getting a ticket

Totally agree with the post btw, but just wanted to mention - could you imagine how hard it would be to get tickets if they cost £15!? Demand would probably double, and it's already ridiculously huge.

[Keith Lard]

I said a couple of seasons ago that as soon as the KOP gets higher than £50 im out. Its £48 for League games and is £58 for CL games.

I think this'll be my last season to be honest and im only 29. 

Paying £42 to watch villa at home or £28 to watch Swansea in the carling cup 4th round when it was £19 in exactly the same round against exactly the same team just 2 years ago! Im sorry but its a disgrace. It'll only continue to go up. When the main stand is complete I guarantee you will have £70-80 tickets at Anfield. Its just wrong.

The problem is though, there will be thousands and thousands of people that will come regardless. Its a brand now, not a cub. The owners don't care, the PL don't care. You either pay up or go home safe in the knowledge that someone will happily fill your seat.

I fear that when the day comes that we win the league I may not actually be a Liverpool supporter anymore or even care. I'm not interested in supporting a business brand that masquerades as a football club for the supporters. It's just a moneymaking con. I'd rather put that energy into another football club with fan ownership and fair ticket prices at the core of its ethos. And by the way I would not restrict the next club I support in terms of having to be located in the UK. I still want to watch good football not shitty lower league football lol seriously maybe we should switch colours and support Dortmund ... Now that would make club ownership really stand up! A group of the thousand plus supporters saying fuck you, we choose to support a proper football club.

[Keith Lard]

Totally agree with the post btw, but just wanted to mention - could you imagine how hard it would be to get tickets if they cost £15!? Demand would probably double, and it's already ridiculously huge.

If getting true supporters in the ground is the aim then trust me demand would drop! A true supporter queues for hours outside the ground, makes flags and sings songs. The irony is that true supporter is not getting into Anfield purely in terms of cost. We can afford to queue and make a contribution in other ways, but we are not willing to compromise putting food on the table for those we love. And rightly so.

[CraigDS]

If getting true supporters in the ground is the aim then trust me demand would drop! A true supporter queues for hours outside the ground, makes flags and sings songs. The irony is that true supporter is not getting into Anfield purely in terms of cost.

Demand isn't going to drop of ticket prices drop, the exact opposite would happen as they become viable for more people.

[Keith Lard]

Demand isn't going to drop of ticket prices drop, the exact opposite would happen as they become viable for more people.

Scrap season tickets, make everyone queue outside the ground to get a ticket one week before the match. I jest a bit of course. Or have more games mid week in the evening. You be surprised what can be achieved if the will is there - this is something I very much believe in.

Here's another really radical idea ... Don't worry about ticket demand. Just drop the bloody prices so that a true supporter at least has a chance.

Controlling demand through exorbitant pricing really is just awful.

[afc tukrish]

I've just been reading Peter McGurk's post in the Safe Standing thread - 5 reasons to support Dortmund.  They may as well be on another planet.  For instance - they won't increase the exec boxes because that would ruin the atmosphere! 

Any chance of a link to that particular post, Mags?

[Maggie May]

If getting true supporters in the ground is the aim then trust me demand would drop! A true supporter queues for hours outside the ground, makes flags and sings songs. The irony is that true supporter is not getting into Anfield purely in terms of cost. We can afford to queue and make a contribution in other ways, but we are not willing to compromise putting food on the table for those we love. And rightly so.

that a true supporter at least has a chance.

Controlling demand through exorbitant pricing really is just awful.
[/quote/]

Damn right Vishy.  There is a yawning gap between what we know to be a true supporter and what is perceived as a "fan" nowadays.  Alas

[Maggie May]

Any chance of a link to that particular post, Mags?

I'm sorry Turkish sweetie but I am inept at that techo thing.  Safe Standing search should get you into the thread (or Peter McGurk's posts).    I tell you though.  If I were younger I'd be off to Dortmund in a trice.  They are a proper football club.

[Mutton Geoff]

Difference these days is clear even with the language , did we care about merchandising, did we need the players names on the back of the shirts leading to some fans thinking that is more important than the badge on the front. Nowadays you need to be a qualified accountant to discuss transfers or the club in general.
So Supporters became fans and now they have become Consumers.
Clubs factor in shirt sales when looking to buy some players.

One day the club will run out of the supporters who are the lifeblood of the club and Anfield will become a soulless place with no atmosphere at all, in fact for me it is already on the way to this now. Last game i attended in the main stand was like a library  with people admiring the Kop like it was a tourist attraction.

I dont really have any answers to the problem the genie was let out years ago.

It will never happen though but in an ideal world i would like this changes to take place.

Every ground has a cheap Boys ( youngsters)  Section ! They are the future of the club or should be.

We adopt perhaps not the 51% rule straight away but lets say 25% -30% of the club initially has to be in the supporters hands and their representatives are truly involved in club decisions and not the lip service they use now.

TV funds are used to supplement ticket prices but also a 1% levy is placed on the money the clubs get and this is channelled back into grassroots football.

Players themselves look to put something back into the game that has made them multi millionaires.

[Keith Lard]

I'm sorry Turkish sweetie but I am inept at that techo thing.  Safe Standing search should get you into the thread (or Peter McGurk's posts).    I tell you though.  If I were younger I'd be off to Dortmund in a trice.  They are a proper football club.

So true Maggie. I wonder what it would feel like to ditch Liverpool and support a club like Dortmund. I just think they are a wonderful club whose principles and what they stand for I really believe in.

To me, it's about giving support to a club ... A CLUB. To support a club, you have to believe in it's ethos and what it stands for. A club should care for its members and be accessible. It should give pleasure to its members.

Maybe we should open a thread that helps those who have now lost faith in Liverpool and seek a new club to support. Honestly, I think I might be done.

[RideTheWalrus]

So true Maggie. I wonder what it would feel like to ditch Liverpool and support a club like Dortmund. I just think they are a wonderful club whose principles and what they stand for I really believe in.

To me, it's about giving support to a club ... A CLUB. To support a club, you have to believe in it's ethos and what it stands for. A club should care for its members and be accessible. It should give pleasure to its members.

Maybe we should open a thread that helps those who have now lost faith in Liverpool and seek a new club to support. Honestly, I think I might be done.

tra then

[Redknobprob]

If they are charging ridiculous prices, they should at least buy a couple of world class players.

[doughnutsandpiper]

I'd love to go to a home game and would be prepared to spend the ticket price but the waiting list is ridiculous. It pisses me off when I see fans sitting in the stands not singing and looking like they would prefer to be somewhere else.

[Maggie May]

tra then

 
How dare you post such a trite reply?      You ought to be ashamed of yourself to do that.  Can you not see that what Dortmund are doing we should be doing.  Indeed what we always should have been doing. 

[keyo]

Totally agree with the post btw, but just wanted to mention - could you imagine how hard it would be to get tickets if they cost £15!? Demand would probably double, and it's already ridiculously huge.

not sure that is really an issue though?  enabling more people to afford a ticket, or encouraging more people to buy a ticket through lower prices creates an issue with regard to fair distribution, but that has always and will always be an issue.  all fans want to go the game, but not all can.

the issue with football ticket prices is that football is not seen by the fans as a traditional business, whereby the ticket price is effectively measured at the point where supply and demand meet to provide the optimum revenue.  however, as a business, it can be argued that the clubs are almost required to use type of modelling to ensure they are financially competitive and thereby able to compete on the pitch.  that is where logic, reason, fairness, relationships between clubs and fans, community, etc. all come into it.  the greed of the clubs that resulted in the setting up of the premier league, the influx of tv megadeals, have resulted in the current 'arms race' which is what is alienating fans. these issues are not unique to England, however, but the English clubs seem more interested in dealing with the issue as a 'business one' and pursue, ultimately, a business solution.  german clubs are run differently, and have a different base to work off, but they seem able to maintain community relations, reasonable pricing, and competitiveness.

there is no magic bullet in relation to pricing and commercialisation issues, but certainly the 'increased demand' that lower prices would bring is certainly not one of the issues we should be concerned about.

[stevo7]

Some electioneering going on.. The Government have a go, after Labour announced therir plans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29699104

The government and football authorities are to work together to explore ways in which fans can have more say in the running of their clubs.

The Supporter Ownership and Engagement Expert Group will meet in November.

It will include representatives from the coalition, the FA, the Premier League, the Football League and fan advisory group Supporters Direct.

The panel is tasked with helping to overcome the barriers to clubs becoming supporter-owned.

Sports Minister Helen Grant said: "Football fans are the lifeblood of the club they support.

"Owners, executives and managers may come and go but it is the fans that are the constant, loyally following their clubs through thick and thin.

"We want to see what more we can do to give fans a stronger voice in how their club is run, as well as looking at ways in which we can help remove some of the barriers to supporter ownership."

Last week, Labour unveiled radical proposals to give fans seats on every club board, and the right to buy a significant slice of a club's shares when its ownership changes. The government says it has been working on its expert group for several months, and believes it has more chance of achieving a consensus across the game than the opposition's plans.
Richard Scudamore and Helen Grant

Richard Scudamore and Helen Grant have given their backing to the group

Only 14 league clubs currently have fan representatives on their board, including Premier League Swansea City, where the Swansea City Supporters Trust own 20% of the club.

Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore said: "The Premier League supports the government's plans to remove legal obstacles which make it harder for fans to acquire shares in their clubs and so welcomes the creation of the expert working group.

"We will play our part in helping the group in reaching positive conclusions, especially by providing them with our technical expertise.

"Dialogue with fans has helped shape recent regulatory changes, including stricter owners' and directors' tests, and tougher financial regulations and we will engage with the working group to identify where further improvements in company law or football rules and regulations can be made in removing unintended barriers to fan ownership."

Supporters Direct  chief executive Robin Osterley said: "It's very gratifying to see the government addressing the problems that prevent an increase in supporter ownership.

"We're immensely pleased at the cooperation that we've seen across the game, and between government departments, and we're grateful to the minister for making this happen.

"This is something that can directly and tangibly benefit supporters' trusts, and we look forward to making swift progress on the issues."

The group will be chaired by Joanna Manning-Cooper, director of marketing and communications for the 2015 Rugby World Cup in England, a member of the Portsmouth Supporters Trust and a community shareholder in Portsmouth FC - the biggest supporter-owned club in the country.