Topic: Liverpool's Defence

[mart356]

When will this end? When will people stop trotting out that vague possible 'explanation'?

Could you please specify exactly what the midfield players are doing wrong or not doing correctly which results in "the midfield"  not "giving enough cover" to our defense?

As in, positionally, and tackling. Gerrard's poor defensively and the best defensive midfielder we have is Can.

[GrkStav]

As in, positionally, and tackling. Gerrard's poor defensively and the best defensive midfielder we have is Can.

The above was in response to the following: "Could you please specify exactly what the midfield players are doing wrong or not doing correctly which results in "the midfield"  not "giving enough cover" to our defense?"

There is something systematically wrong here.

[mart356]

The above was in response to the following: "Could you please specify exactly what the midfield players are doing wrong or not doing correctly which results in "the midfield"  not "giving enough cover" to our defense?"

There is something systematically wrong here.

As in, the midfielders, especially Gerrard, are not covering space or players, and therefore tackling/intercepting in front of our back 4. At least, not as much as someone more defensively aware would.

[Caligula?]

Seems as if we're cursed in defense.

Moreno now looks to be injured, and who knows if Enrique is anywhere near ready to be playing week in week out again. Johnson looks an increasing liability at RB with every passing game, and despite adding Lovren at CB we still seem to be making the same mistakes as last season.

[GrkStav]

As in, the midfielders, especially Gerrard, are not covering space or players, and therefore tackling/intercepting in front of our back 4. At least, not as much as someone more defensively aware would.

So, it has to be either the 1-2 midfield or the inability of Gerrard, despite his great contributions to our attacking play, to play the role properly from a defensive standpoint. Is that a correct interpretation of what your saying?

Who else other than Gerrard is "not covering space or players" and therefore "not tacking/intercepting in front of our back 4"

Of the CM currently in our squad, who is "more defensively aware", and are there enough to make the 1-2 midfield work well enough to provide the proper defensive cover for our back 4?

[GrkStav]

Seems as if we're cursed in defense.

Moreno now looks to be injured, and who knows if Enrique is anywhere near ready to be playing week in week out again. Johnson looks an increasing liability at RB with every passing game, and despite adding Lovren at CB we still seem to be making the same mistakes as last season.

Well, we know Can, who's right-footed, featured as (emergency) left back for a few games with Leverkusen. So, maybe he can fill in again.

[Nosss]

So, what's the educated consensus so far on how our midfield trio (both versions) fared, in terms of contributing to our defense?

In my opinion, we looked very solid all over the pitch until the first goal then lost composure when it went in. I think we need to maintain the way we were playing for the first half even when we go behind and trust that even when playing conservatively we can score against the better teams.

The way Skrtel and Lovren were playing in different ways was a big problem as well. Rodgers has just bought Lovren so I assume that Lovren is doing the right thing. If that's the case Rodgers needs to either get Skrtel and the rest of the back four on the same page as Lovren or make changes. We need to have a defensive shape that the entire back four wants to naturally drop into when we are under pressure. The way Lovren tried to hold a high line while Skrtel was five yards deeper than him was crazy.

[Chakan]

So who's actually injured in our defense now?

Flanno, Enrique, Agger, Moreno, Johnson?

[kcbworth]

Rodgers has just bought Lovren so I assume that Lovren is doing the right thing.

Funny... I assume the exact opposite, that Lovren needs time to adapt to our system.

[mart356]

So, it has to be either the 1-2 midfield or the inability of Gerrard, despite his great contributions to our attacking play, to play the role properly from a defensive standpoint. Is that a correct interpretation of what your saying?

Who else other than Gerrard is "not covering space or players" and therefore "not tacking/intercepting in front of our back 4"

Of the CM currently in our squad, who is "more defensively aware", and are there enough to make the 1-2 midfield work well enough to provide the proper defensive cover for our back 4?

Gerrard is our deepest midfielder. He has to cover the space in front of the back 4. He's in the team because he's great on the ball and at set pieces, no player can offer what he does on the ball. I don't think we have a player who can come in for Gerrard and be better defensively, Gerrard is as good as it gets, and it's not great. He can tackle though, more often than not he comes out with the ball. From what i've seen of Can he may be able to do this role, and he has the added attribute of physicality. Henderson and whoever else plays in the midfield, tonight it was Allen, it's not their job to cover that space or provide defensive cover. They're Gerrard's runners, they go up and down the pitch, they press, they harry and they tackle, quite simply because he can't. Ideally you have a player behind them to cover the space they leave behind, who has a positional sense to mop up the passes that get through and the runners who get through.

To fix the problem we're going to have to buy someone, someone like i just described, i.e a Matic, Carvalho, whoever. For what it's worth I think Henderson/Coutinho/Allen all do their midfield roles well when played there. But, for now, the 1-2 midfield isn't going to work with Gerrard there, more so against top opposition.

[Nosss]

Funny... I assume the exact opposite, that Lovren needs time to adapt to our system.

Of course you may be right, I'm really not an expert at all! I just have always thought Rodgers would want to play a high line, which seems to be what Lovren is trying to do. I understand that he didn't play one last season but from what I remember he talks about maintaining a high line in some of his press conferences (I may be misremembering here though).

[mart356]

At one point Rodgers was on the verge of selling Skrtel, no?  So if he can change one way he can change the other, and start LovrenSakho

Apparently when he came in he wasn't a fan, but Skrtel won him over. And if Lovren goes to RCB, it won't end well.

[Fromola]

Just saw a stat saying we've conceded at least 2 goals in 23/39 away league games under BR

Something we're going to have to get used to. Problem is we no longer have Suarez to bail us out.

It's not always conceding chasing games either. A lot of the time we've blown two goal leads.

[killer-heels]

Something we're going to have to get used to. Problem is we no longer have Suarez to bail us out.

It's not always conceding chasing games either. A lot of the time we've blown two goal leads.

Suarez didnt bail us out in many of those games we conceded 2 or more in last season either did he? Maybe Cardiff away. We still went and lost or drew those.

[Fromola]

Apparently when he came in he wasn't a fan, but Skrtel won him over. And if Lovren goes to RCB, it won't end well.

If that's the case then what a mess. £17m spunked on Sakho and then pay another £20m for someone in his position.  Not to mention the money wasted on Ilori and the wages on Toure. Yet we're no better defensively for it.

[rickardinho1]

So who's actually injured in our defense now?

Flanno, Enrique, Agger, Moreno, Johnson?

We've got 5 players capable of playing LB and all of them are injured at the same time. Wonderful.

Hopefully Moreno is fine because I think we can cause some serious damage with M&M on the flanks.

[Carly]

And if Lovren goes to RCB, it won't end well.

How many times has he played there before in the past??  Id like to think you have seen him play there numerous times to make that judgement.

The real answer is nobody knows how him or Sakho would play if played in that position until its tryed out, which it needs to be.  Its a travesty that Sakho a French international who looked imperious at the world cup isn't getting into the first 11. 

[Fordy]

Our defence and keeper need a lot of work.

[Carly]

We've got 5 players capable of playing LB and all of them are injured at the same time. Wonderful.

Hopefully Moreno is fine because I think we can cause some serious damage with M&M on the flanks.

Worst comes to worst we should go with a 3 5 2 formation against Spurs. 

[Redpross1]

If that's the case then what a mess. £17m spunked on Sakho and then pay another £20m for someone in his position.  Not to mention the money wasted on Ilori and the wages on Toure. Yet we're no better defensively for it.

Exactly my thoughts right now......also Rodgers 3rd season and still the same exact problems!!!!

What's the definition of madness? Doing the exact same things but expecting a different outcome?

[rayted_are]

Analysis of the Liverpool defense vs Manchester City (25.08.2014)
 http://vimeo.com/104373217

[rickardinho1]

Worst comes to worst we should go with a 3 5 2 formation against Spurs.

I would hope it would be something like this in that case:

              Skrtel  Lovren   Sakho
Manquillo   Henderson Allen     Markovic
                          Sterling
               Balotelli    Sturridge
           
If you move Lovren up one step its basically as if we're playing a diamond with him in the Gerrard role, which I think he could replicate with his range of passing. I don't think Gerrard has the legs to get around in the midfield "2". Allen and Markovic would need to be very disciplined too to cover the LB spot.

In any case, against a Pochettino press I doubt Brendan will want to give up too many bodies in midfield, but it could work.

[thx4thememeories]

This was always going to happen you cant buy x amount of players and reshuffle a defence and expect it to gel immediatley its going to take time.

I honestly think he is better of going with who he thinks he wants as his starting defence and taking the hit now instead of trying to do it slowly.

I have said this before but Gerrard doesnt provide good enough cover its not his fault he doesnt have the legs for it, a solution could be instead of him playing by himself infront of the defence with 2 infront of of him, flip that around so there are 2 in front of the defence and one ahead of him.

This will still allow him to collect and dictate from deep but also move further forward in attack and have cover.

[GrkStav]

Based on what PoP has told us, Carragher's advice is not relevant to what BR's ideal defensive posture would be (I don't mean the 'back 4 work' part).

To me, Skrtel thinks "too much" like the recent (older) Carragher, while Lovren and Sakho think and behave like proper zonal defenders, in the prime of their physical capabilities.

But, this can't go on. Either Skrtel has to adjust to Lovren/Sakho, or vice-versa. As it stands, it won't work, imo.

[Yolanderyolando]

Thinks too much ? Behave like proper zonal defenders In the prime of their physical capabilities ?

Actual nonsense.

[robgomm]

It's worth pointing out that City had 9 shots, 4 on target last night. It's not like we gave a huge amount away, it's that we couldn't stop what we did turning into a goal. Partly you look at Mignolet foot the third but otherwise another individual error for the first.

To me we don't prevent teams getting to our area well enough, if the press fails it's then fairly easy for them to breach our penalty area. This is partly, perhaps, organisational and partly individual. I would lose Skrtel and Johnson, it's time to throw our weight behind an aggressive defensive line. 

[clinical]

Based on what PoP has told us, Carragher's advice is not relevant to what BR's ideal defensive posture would be (I don't mean the 'back 4 work' part).

To me, Skrtel thinks "too much" like the recent (older) Carragher, while Lovren and Sakho think and behave like proper zonal defenders, in the prime of their physical capabilities.

But, this can't go on. Either Skrtel has to adjust to Lovren/Sakho, or vice-versa. As it stands, it won't work, imo.

There's something wrong with the Skrtel Lovren partnership just like the Skrtel Sakho partnership. The only thing I can take from that is that is in fact Skrtel is the problem.

[Notfromaroundhere]

Based on what PoP has told us, Carragher's advice is not relevant to what BR's ideal defensive posture would be (I don't mean the 'back 4 work' part).

To me, Skrtel thinks "too much" like the recent (older) Carragher, while Lovren and Sakho think and behave like proper zonal defenders, in the prime of their physical capabilities.

But, this can't go on. Either Skrtel has to adjust to Lovren/Sakho, or vice-versa. As it stands, it won't work, imo.

Yeah, from what I've heard about him analysing individual defensive actions he seems very conservative in his thinking. Probably a product of how he's been coached for large parts of his career.

Thought the discussion he and Gary Neville had about David Luiz last season was very telling in terms of how he thinks a defender should behave. Not sure it's applicable to the way BR wants his defenders to act. 

[jepovic]

I'm just a little worried that Rodgers lacks the defensive skills to organize a top defense. Two years and quite a few signings, without improvement. I still have hope, but our problems clearly goes beyond individual skills. I dont know if Skrtel or Lovren have misunderstood the system, but it's Rodgers job to get them on the same page in training. Most of all though, they need time

[Pricey]

A few things about the defence really concern me.

1. Last season Sakho was quite clearly our best centre half. He's playing for France at a young age and looks very good on the ball. He cost us a tidy sum of money last season, and was the shining light in a truly shit back 4. He's been replaced by Lovren for 20 million. We've spent 38 million on defenders and not only is only 1 playing, but the inferior one based on the evidence before us. If anyone needed replacing it was Skrtel with a new RCB, not our best defender for an outrageous amount. The whole Lovren/Sakho thing is very strange.

2. Remember after the Chelsea game Rodgers said something along the lines of "It's not hard to get a team to defend with 11 men behind the ball". Well Brendan, we can't defend to save our fucking lives even with 11 men behind the ball. Perhaps at times we could do with some of that away in big games, especially in the Champions League, because conceding 1 goal at home in the CL knockout stages is enough to see you out, and at this rate we're completely fucked.

[steveeastend]

At one point Rodgers was on the verge of selling Skrtel, no?  So if he can change one way he can change the other, and start LovrenSakho

Are you saying that it's still Skrtel to be the scapegoat after those two performances of Lovren? I am not saying he, Lovren, won't come good but playing two new signings in this game was a mistake by Rodgers.

[steveeastend]

A few things about the defence really concern me.

1. Last season Sakho was quite clearly our best centre half. He's playing for France at a young age and looks very good on the ball. He cost us a tidy sum of money last season, and was the shining light in a truly shit back 4. He's been replaced by Lovren for 20 million. We've spent 38 million on defenders and not only is only 1 playing, but the inferior one based on the evidence before us. If anyone needed replacing it was Skrtel with a new RCB, not our best defender for an outrageous amount. The whole Lovren/Sakho thing is very strange.

2. Remember after the Chelsea game Rodgers said something along the lines of "It's not hard to get a team to defend with 11 men behind the ball". Well Brendan, we can't defend to save our fucking lives even with 11 men behind the ball. Perhaps at times we could do with some of that away in big games, especially in the Champions League, because conceding 1 goal at home in the CL knockout stages is enough to see you out, and at this rate we're completely fucked.

In which universe do you think would it be possible for Sakho to prevent Lovren from the mistakes he made and from time he needs to settle 9in just as Sakho himself last season?

In this universe though, it's possible to come to conclusions which have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening on the pitch, absolutely nothing.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Are you saying that it's still Skrtel to be the scapegoat after those two performances of Lovren? I am not saying he, Lovren, won't come good but playing two new signings in this game was a mistake by Rodgers.

What do you mean those two performances from Lovren?

He takes some of the blame for the third goal but other than that he has been very good. Watching him last night every time City passed the ball backwards he was pushing the defense up and forcing City further back. City didn't create anything in that first half until the mistake by Moreno. Compare that to the game at Anfield at the end of last season when we were sitting deep and inviting pressure.

Second half he continues to push the line-up but for the second goal half of the defense doesn't go with him and keep two players on-side.

[steveeastend]

What do you mean those two performances from Lovren?

He takes some of the blame for the third goal but other than that he has been very good. Watching him last night every time City passed the ball backwards he was pushing the defense up and forcing City further back. City didn't create anything in that first half until the mistake by Moreno. Compare that to the game at Anfield at the end of last season when we were sitting deep and inviting pressure.

Second half he continues to push the line-up but for the second goal half of the defense doesn't go with him and keep two players on-side.

The things is that it's not working right now because the entire team isn't functioning as a unit. It's well and good pushing on but then Henderson has to put more pressure on the ball in order to prevent the pass prior the third goal as the spaces become simply too big then to defend properly as a team.

I am not saying Lovren won't come good, I am saying that he was brought in too early and doesn't know his team mates good enough to know how to adjust tactically in certain game situations which was also visible prior the second. The header prior the first was an indivual error which I won't blame him for but it happened and I don't wanna know what a reaction would have been if it was Skrtel.

It's a matter of time, and in my opinion, Rodgers was thinking too much long term and not enough short term in this game in almost every respect you can think of.

[penga]

Based on what PoP has told us, Carragher's advice is not relevant to what BR's ideal defensive posture would be (I don't mean the 'back 4 work' part).

To me, Skrtel thinks "too much" like the recent (older) Carragher, while Lovren and Sakho think and behave like proper zonal defenders, in the prime of their physical capabilities.

But, this can't go on. Either Skrtel has to adjust to Lovren/Sakho, or vice-versa. As it stands, it won't work, imo.

While I agree with PoP's general principle of pushing up when the ball is played backwards as a trigger, I just can't agree in this instance the defence should've stepped up - it is situational - your left back is out of position so your back 4 is already out of sync and Coutinho was just there stepping out hence leaving a massive gap in behind the left hand side. If Lovren stayed back we aren't opened up simple as that, there was less to be gained by stepping up (especially as Lovren could never have gotten tight to Jovetic anyway) than playing cover defence. You might not have to communicate every time as it is based on "triggers" but in this instance if you wanted to step out, you probably should have. If the defence steps up there is a high chance we  still might have been opened up as the flick was the quick thinking move to bypass a possible trap and Nasri the assister (who I assume the flick was meant for) was level with Lovren anyway. You'd be hoping on a call for offside on Zabaleta who does not touch the ball or impede a defender and may be seen as inactive.

[Norse Red]

Our defense needs to be tight like a ducks arse in the Spurs game. A lot of work needs to be done before that game.

[Pricey]

In which universe do you think would it be possible for Sakho to prevent Lovren from the mistakes he made and from time he needs to settle 9in just as Sakho himself last season?

In this universe though, it's possible to come to conclusions which have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening on the pitch, absolutely nothing.

Tell me an individual performance last season by Sakho, as bad as Lovren was last night?

I'm not even having a pop at Lovren, he's ok, i'm just saying it's utterly bizarre that we've spent 20 million replacing our best centre half and Skrtel is still playing.

If we had a great left winger, and a shit right one, and spent 20 million on a new left winger, and continues with the shit right winger, perhaps people would see it a little better. It's absolutely fucking insane. You think a player as good as Sakho is just going to sit on our bench for 40 games?

[Liverbird27]

At one point Rodgers was on the verge of selling Skrtel, no?  So if he can change one way he can change the other, and start LovrenSakho

And he was also on the verge of selling Henderson. Sometimes players win the manager over and deserve their just rewards. This constant desire to wanna see Skrtel pushed out the team... coz of what? He's not a "fan favourite"?

Lovren struggled more last night, yet you're having a go at Skrtel.

Last night, it looked like a disjointed back 4 who had recently been assembled together. Shame it had to come up against such a strong attack so early on. Ideally, what we should be doing is sticking with a set back four, drilling them together at melwood day-in day-out, ride out the initial rough patches, and hope to reap the rewards of it during the second half of the season (which is when you should be pushing on).

These injuries at fullback aren't helping mind.

[Shepnois]

Until the defence starts to work as a cohesive unit nothing will change. Regardless of the personnel it looks like 4 individuals back there, compare that to City of course they're a settle experienced defence but they work as a unit that’s how you defend and in doing that you keep errors and being caught out to a minimum. We should be making the opposition do something special to break us down, at the moment they're so easy to play against simply because the back line doesn’t play as a well drilled unit.

[steveeastend]

While I agree with PoP's general principle of pushing up when the ball is played backwards as a trigger, I just can't agree in this instance the defence should've stepped up - it is situational - your left back is out of position so your back 4 is already out of sync and Coutinho was just there stepping out hence leaving a massive gap in behind the left hand side. If Lovren stayed back we aren't opened up simple as that, there was less to be gained by stepping up (especially as Lovren could never have gotten tight to Jovetic anyway) than playing cover defence.

It's a matter of practise in training and knowing your team mates. And it's a matter of having experienced players around, experienced at the club and how we did progress while being aware of our shortcomings. And while we probably will improve on Skrtel, Lucas, Johnson, Agger and even Flanagan in the future, we need them RIGHT NOW.

I honestly don't understand Rogders being this adventerious in such an important game and while I always thought his guts to be something positive there is a lot more to lose this season compared to last one and he should be aware of that. It's about solid coaching with an emphasis of the core of the players who know the fucking job and build on that.