Author Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?  (Read 266784 times)

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2320 on: January 20, 2011, 06:58:42 pm »
ive seen a couple of tackles on him recently that were reckless to say the least.

he got up straight away from both.
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Offline Valery_Karpin

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2321 on: January 20, 2011, 07:03:02 pm »
Is Meireles a better passer than Lucas. Well, judging by their careers, you'd say Meireles is, judging by their time at Liverpool, you'd say Raul has better vision and more will to try an execute the through ball, whilst Lucas is probably the safer player and maintains possession better. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather see three chances created, but then see the ball given away three times, over seeing the ball consistently kept, but almost nothing create or nothing effective being played. Lucas, for all the lauding of his passing, doesn't have much of an effect on how we play, and that's the hallmark of a good passer. Lucas simply keeps it neat and tidy, but that doesn't make him a good passer, whilst I believe some of his more adventurous stuff, or the more awkward stuff, he doesn't really execute to a good level. Yes, the ball gets from A to B, but things like time to make the decision, pass weight, pass precision and so on, aren't particularly great, in my opinion.

His passing is just like the rest of his game, decent, but nothing special.
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2322 on: January 20, 2011, 07:07:08 pm »
ive seen a couple of tackles on him recently that were reckless to say the least.

he got up straight away from both.

Yeah he has.  What does he wear on his ankles under and over his socks?  Anyone know?  If you look at any decent image of him it looks like he has serious amounts of padding/protection under his socks, and plenty of white bandage(?)  over his socks.  I'd be really interested to know what it all is, as it seems to do the job!
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2323 on: January 20, 2011, 07:14:13 pm »
thats just your preference of what you like to see a midfielder do.
not whats best. or what a particular team might need.

his passing isnt forcefull.
im sure if he saw a run with no risk if getting countered and he thought there wasa  decent chance of it reaching he would hit a longer ball.

some players just look up first for the longer ball.
doesnt mean that pass is right.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2324 on: January 20, 2011, 07:15:20 pm »
Yeah he has.  What does he wear on his ankles under and over his socks?  Anyone know?  If you look at any decent image of him it looks like he has serious amounts of padding/protection under his socks, and plenty of white bandage(?)  over his socks.  I'd be really interested to know what it all is, as it seems to do the job!

probably ankle pads with the shin pads.

i used to wear them but then i learnt after doing both ankles in one game lol
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Offline mulhergremista

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2325 on: January 20, 2011, 07:18:03 pm »
Some episodes which impressed me.

Fellaini's elbow. A combination of Fellaini's elbow going up and his studs coming down draws blood from Lucas's cheek. Lucas screams at the referee, pointing at his bloody face, enquiring why there is no free kick. Lucas lasts the 90 minutes, unlike Fellaini, who was marginalised by Lucas's attentions.

Flu. Lucas is out for a game, fevered with flu. He plays in the next game, less than a week later.

The iron balls incident. Johnson misses his clearance from a Benfica free kick, and the ball thuds into Lucas's groin with a loud thump, ricocheting yards away. As Liverpool counter (ending in a goal), Lucas hobbles up the pitch to avoid playing any Benfica players onside, rather than crumpling to the floor in agony like any mortal would.
Also I remember the ribs blow that he got once, I saw a picture where Lucas shows the Ref and SG who came worried to have a look his injured ribcage.  Somebody very clever
shows the photo  and subtitled it : Lucas shows his left nipple to SG.  I wondered how he could endure the whole game afterwards.  I was worried that h will be in great pain, and rib injury usually takes lon to heal.  I really wa surprise to see him in the next game.
Of course som of ou will prefer a cheat divers like Mascherano.  He is educated to endure and to jump ASAP to his standing position.  That was one of the things  that I admired most about him in Gremio.  And somebody said he has to "man up"  really LOL

Offline leivapool

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Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2327 on: January 20, 2011, 07:46:14 pm »
Is Meireles a better passer than Lucas. Well, judging by their careers, you'd say Meireles is, judging by their time at Liverpool, you'd say Raul has better vision and more will to try an execute the through ball, whilst Lucas is probably the safer player and maintains possession better. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather see three chances created, but then see the ball given away three times, over seeing the ball consistently kept, but almost nothing create or nothing effective being played. Lucas, for all the lauding of his passing, doesn't have much of an effect on how we play, and that's the hallmark of a good passer. Lucas simply keeps it neat and tidy, but that doesn't make him a good passer, whilst I believe some of his more adventurous stuff, or the more awkward stuff, he doesn't really execute to a good level. Yes, the ball gets from A to B, but things like time to make the decision, pass weight, pass precision and so on, aren't particularly great, in my opinion.

His passing is just like the rest of his game, decent, but nothing special.

Have you read that Shankly quote?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2328 on: January 20, 2011, 07:58:39 pm »
Show us the quote, sangria!


Offline Real MadRed

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2330 on: January 20, 2011, 09:58:23 pm »
Cynical sloppy tackles made in or around the box; static movement and not showing for the ball in games; not completing the easiest of passes and attempting hard ones with even less conviction.

Maybe it will all be remembered as the one that never was, and how he was overawed in the presence of Gerrard etc. I just feel since coming as a golden boot winner from Gremio with a huge reputation (Fergie attempted a last ditch snaring of him) that he has simply not worked.  He infuriates me, and yes he has improved; but it should be put in a box with the things people say like "Kuyt gives 150%", "Babel is our most skilful player", "morientes is class, and form is temporary" - sometimes things just dont work the way you think they should.
Simply nowhere near good enough.  Just watch him throughout a game a bit more close than the cameras show and you will see he just isn't next level stuff.  Get rid and good luck to him, as we willnever win titles whilst he is one of our best performers. end of.

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2331 on: January 20, 2011, 09:59:29 pm »
Cynical sloppy tackles made in or around the box; static movement and not showing for the ball in games; not completing the easiest of passes and attempting hard ones with even less conviction.
Wow. You're actually serious.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2332 on: January 20, 2011, 10:00:45 pm »
Cynical sloppy tackles made in or around the box; static movement and not showing for the ball in games; not completing the easiest of passes and attempting hard ones with even less conviction.

And the only passes he completes properly are those simple 5 yard ones to the nearest team mate.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2333 on: January 20, 2011, 10:01:10 pm »
Wow. You're actually serious.

His post count screams Yorky's Law.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2334 on: January 20, 2011, 10:01:48 pm »
And the only passes he completes properly are those simple 5 yard ones to the nearest team mate.

And he wouldn't even be playing if he actually committed himself, coz then he'd be injured like Alan Shearer.

Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2335 on: January 20, 2011, 10:38:24 pm »
Quote
(Mr Alex Ferguson attempted a last ditch snaring of him)

Really? I hadn't heard this. Got a link?

Offline Real MadRed

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2336 on: January 20, 2011, 10:56:20 pm »
His post count screams Yorky's Law.

Fucking 'ell big balls.  Is that what I have to do to get heard around here sit on all day writing my endless stream of conciousness for some sort of inner fullfillment, sense of belonging and right to be listened.  Now where did I leave the conch? "Piggy??"
I prefer to count the amount of support I have given the team through the years, do I get more credit if I tell you I have Bill Shankly's record collection?

Likeisay, you either see these things or you don't.  His best game is still a one-off (Newcastle away when we won 3-1)

Offline Real MadRed

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2337 on: January 20, 2011, 10:57:44 pm »
Really? I hadn't heard this. Got a link?

Was informed by Manure fans at the time that whiskynose flew out last minute to try and gazump us.

Offline Vidocq

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2338 on: January 20, 2011, 11:06:29 pm »
Which ones? While you're at it, could you do a break down of the CMs used in the 87-88 season, usually seen as the peak of the Dalglish era?

still waiting for you to make any point...
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2339 on: January 20, 2011, 11:22:24 pm »
still waiting for you to make any point...

You said that Lucas isn't the kind of player Dalglish would want. I pointed you to the 87-88 season, the pinnacle of Dalglish's managerial career, and asked you to look at the CMs he used in that season. On the one hand, you made your assumption about Lucas and Dalglish, based on what I don't know, but I'd like you to explain how you came to that assumption. On the other hand, I have another assumption, which is based on Dalglish's selection choices when he was last Liverpool manager, at a time when he had the strongest squad of players he'd ever managed, when he had a full hand of different types of CMs.

So I'd like to know on what basis you made your assumption that Dalglish wouldn't fancy a Lucas-type player. To explore your reasoning, I'd like to see if you're aware of what kind of midfielders Dalglish has chosen in the past, as it's the best evidence we have of his taste in players. So would you like to explain the reasoning behind your assumption?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Vidocq

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2340 on: January 20, 2011, 11:31:51 pm »
my reasons are not rocket science... Kenny wants to make pass and move system of playing... Lucas doesnt fit to that style imo.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2341 on: January 20, 2011, 11:40:46 pm »
my reasons are not rocket science... Kenny wants to make pass and move system of playing... Lucas doesnt fit to that style imo.

So I'm asking you to look at the best pass and move team that Liverpool has ever produced, also managed by Dalglish, and look at his choices in CM. Do you know which players I'm talking about? Go through his CM choices that season, and compare them with Lucas.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline KopiteN1ck

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2342 on: January 20, 2011, 11:46:49 pm »
He can fit into KDs system no problem. Ive always thought that when he gets forward and attacks more, he looks a better player. He can easily adopt a pass and move style and his worth ethic and attitude sum up Liverpool football club.

Keep him.
YNWA

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2343 on: January 20, 2011, 11:50:53 pm »
Quote
static movement

Right up there with giant shrimp and military intelligence, eh?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2344 on: January 20, 2011, 11:52:18 pm »
If Lucas Leiva does not fit a "pass and move" system/philosophy then Zamora doesn't fit a 'go long' system/philosophy and Crouchy is a lousy target man.
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Offline Valery_Karpin

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2345 on: January 20, 2011, 11:58:36 pm »
If Lucas Leiva does not fit a "pass and move" system/philosophy then Zamora doesn't fit a 'go long' system/philosophy and Crouchy is a lousy target man.

Thing is, you sort of summed it up right there. He does fit into a pass and move system, just like Zamora fits into a go long system. However, Zamora is just a decent go long player, there are many better, whilst he still fits into that system, you'd probably want a bit better than Zamora if you're to try and challenge with a go long system. Same with Lucas, he fits in, but there are many better and you'd hope, if to be competitive is the aim, we'd look towards the better players.
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Offline liverpooll

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2346 on: January 20, 2011, 11:58:37 pm »
I think the problem with Lucas is that when people start overrating by comparing him with the likes of Xavi,Busquets,Gerrard. That is what makes some Liverpool fans angry. He is good but he is clearly replaceable as he does not offer anything unique or is not good in any part of the game rather decent in all areas. A bit like Kuyt, but we should stop comparing him with definitely better players and saying Lucas is better.

Offline RigBon1892

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2347 on: January 20, 2011, 11:59:31 pm »
I can't believe there's still people questioning what Lucas brings to the side.

Although it'd be nice to see him shoot a little more.
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Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2348 on: January 21, 2011, 12:06:25 am »
Ignorance is bliss.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2349 on: January 21, 2011, 12:07:33 am »
Thing is, you sort of summed it up right there. He does fit into a pass and move system, just like Zamora fits into a go long system. However, Zamora is just a decent go long player, there are many better, whilst he still fits into that system, you'd probably want a bit better than Zamora if you're to try and challenge with a go long system. Same with Lucas, he fits in, but there are many better and you'd hope, if to be competitive is the aim, we'd look towards the better players.

Whatever, I used Zamora as he was often brought up as what he was trying to make Torres into (he being Hodgson).

I don't know about others but I, personally, do not need to hear your (singular and plural) position again. I've heard it enough already, I understand it, see what you're trying to say but simply do not agree. At all.
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Offline stoa

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2350 on: January 21, 2011, 12:10:17 am »
Cynical sloppy tackles made in or around the box; static movement and not showing for the ball in games; not completing the easiest of passes and attempting hard ones with even less conviction.

You're either blind or don't know that Liverpool are the team wearing red. Otherwise, I have no clue where you're getting this making sloppy tackles in and around the box-bollocks from. It makes everything you're saying and "you've seen with your own eyes" meaningless.

I know I shouldn't be arsed, but fuck it. Here are Lucas' chalkboards for 16 of the 18 games he's played in. There are about 3 freekicks conceded in there I'd class "around the box" (not a single one in the box BTW). If you include the Man City game (chalkboard on the lower right in the second picture) there's probably two more. In a game where we've been handed our arses by City. I've left out two games. One against Birmingham (Lucas won two freekicks in their half and conceded none) and one against Arsenal (no freekicks won or conceded).

Now please fucking enlighten me where all those cynical sloppy tackles in and around the box are...

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2351 on: January 21, 2011, 12:11:25 am »
I think the problem with Lucas is that when people start overrating by comparing him with the likes of Xavi,Busquets,Gerrard. That is what makes some Liverpool fans angry. He is good but he is clearly replaceable as he does not offer anything unique or is not good in any part of the game rather decent in all areas. A bit like Kuyt, but we should stop comparing him with definitely better players and saying Lucas is better.

That's only because people are trying to explain football in terms others can understand. Try to explain the technical details of what he does, and it goes over their heads, as they don't even understand the concepts behind it. This is my point about language and how it limits understanding. So they try and alternative method instead, which is to point to a wellknown player, and describe how Lucas is that type of player. When they do that, the critics splutter with outrage at how Lucas is being compared with these players when he's not their level. Thus missing the point that Lucas isn't being compared to them in quality, but in role and player type.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Valery_Karpin

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2352 on: January 21, 2011, 12:12:54 am »
I don't know about others but I, personally, do not need to hear your (singular and plural) position again. I've heard it enough already, I understand it, see what you're trying to say but simply do not agree. At all.

That is, seemingly, ironic. I'm not going to get into a tart-fest, but you are one of the most persistent posters on this thread, and one of the most dismissive. I think people on here know your love for Lucas, they know how highly you rate him and they know how great you think he'll become. Yup, we do, and we know that every suggestion we make about Lucas not fitting in here, not being quite as good as he's made out, or not being quite as good as what we really want, we know that we will be put in our place, with an extra lack of humility thrown in there, just for good measure.
"Imagine a coach who's been a champion and continues using the same methods. It's a mistake. Things don't stop, they evolve." Vitor Baia

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2353 on: January 21, 2011, 12:15:36 am »
Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?
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Offline scatman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2354 on: January 21, 2011, 12:16:20 am »
Stoa, showing the fouls he's actually given away is not going to work, as that lad has seen it with his 'eyes'
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2355 on: January 21, 2011, 12:19:14 am »
Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

How many people have claimed he's going to be the best in the world?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2356 on: January 21, 2011, 12:19:41 am »
I can't believe there's still people questioning what Lucas brings to the side.

Although it'd be nice to see him shoot a little more.

Shoot from the Liverpool half?

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2357 on: January 21, 2011, 12:21:26 am »
How many people have claimed he's going to be the best in the world?

I figure it's implied when no one can get away with even questioning his ability on here without being jumped on. Must be wrong though. Not like RAWK to get uber defensive about an individual to the extent it's blinded to any falability they may have :)

Answering a question with a question is exactly why this thread is 60 pages of going nowhere, let's be fair.
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Offline RBrittain

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2358 on: January 21, 2011, 12:26:44 am »
This:

I think the problem with Lucas is that when people start overrating by comparing him with the likes of Xavi,Busquets,Gerrard. That is what makes some Liverpool fans angry. He is good but he is clearly replaceable as he does not offer anything unique or is not good in any part of the game rather decent in all areas. A bit like Kuyt, but we should stop comparing him with definitely better players and saying Lucas is better.

And...

This.

Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

Lucas is definitely overrated on this forum. People should be allowed to criticise him. He has done nowhere near enough to earn the near-legendary status that some give him here, and the fact that some do overrate him so much is probably what causes others to comically underrate him - to provide some balance.

Lucas is not a world beater. I hope he becomes one, but we just haven't seen it yet.

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2359 on: January 21, 2011, 12:27:11 am »
Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

Barely anyone has made him out to be a world beater... and almost everyone has said that he needs to improve. People get so defensive over him because of comments that he's not good enough for the first team. He doesn't need a stand out attribute to make him one of the worlds best. Lucas is sort of a jack of all trades... he does most things well enough. In a team that wants to play pass and move (that is essentially what he does). He's capable of more but the problem is that we've been so bad for so long the only time we'll see more of what he can offer is when the entire team is playing well. He's not a Gerrard who's like a force of nature but he doesn't need to be. He keeps possession really well, keeps the ball moving all, has great positioning and reading of the game.

If he keeps improving at the rate he is by the time he's 25/26 we'll have some player on our hands.
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