Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 885381 times)

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5440 on: April 5, 2017, 10:43:38 am »
Rightly so from Watson, but hopefully he and others follow it up with action. Because as it stands Labour is saying you can be offensively antagonistically anti-Semitic to bait Jewish people, and remain a party member. It's not a big leap to say the party has been made to look institutionally racist/xenophobic by the ruling.

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5441 on: April 5, 2017, 10:56:20 am »
Rightly so from Watson, but hopefully he and others follow it up with action. Because as it stands Labour is saying you can be offensively antagonistically anti-Semitic to bait Jewish people, and remain a party member. It's not a big leap to say the party has been made to look institutionally racist/xenophobic by the ruling.

How can he follow it up? The quasi-judicial process has been followed and come up with this mess. I suspect that his actions are severely constrained in respect of the original offences.

Of course he could press for action on the comments post verdict - but that would play out really badly with a section of the party and come across as a vendetta and extremely petty.

The result is the worse one that could have happened. It resolves nothing.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5442 on: April 5, 2017, 11:23:11 am »
How can he follow it up? The quasi-judicial process has been followed and come up with this mess. I suspect that his actions are severely constrained in respect of the original offences.

Of course he could press for action on the comments post verdict - but that would play out really badly with a section of the party and come across as a vendetta and extremely petty.

The result is the worse one that could have happened. It resolves nothing.


I meant lobbying for him to face another hearing for his clearly antagonistic responses last night and this morning. As stated, this is almost worst possible outcome because he now appears to feel vindicated despite being found guilty, and thinks he can get away with doing it some more, since he has very expensive lawyers and has constantly threatened the hearing with Judicial Review. Again, echoes of Trump from the hard left - throwing money around to back up their bullying tactics.

You're right about Watson in particular risking the wrath of supporters of Livingstone and/or Corbyn and/or anti-semitism - I'm meaning maybe a collective statement from the bulk of Labour MPs. Also whichever pal of Corbyn's in the shadow cabinet holds the brief for discrimination and equality should be making a firm statement that Labour condemns Livingstone.

Online oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5443 on: April 5, 2017, 11:36:56 am »
not just that, but it's his job to push the message out there and even some of his biggest fans (like Owen Jones) admit his team are awful at doing that
Yeah,the situation is beyond repair and any other leader would accept this and step down.
It's now reached a stage were Corbyns cock ups are more news worthy than what he has to say. that's just the way things are and he will never be able to change the image he's created.


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Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5444 on: April 5, 2017, 11:53:26 am »
Well said Jeremy.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/40d9XKZ8sZA&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/40d9XKZ8sZA&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

We've reached the situation where Labour are probably facing electoral oblivion. He has played a huge part in that through his naivety but there have been other factors at play.

I cast my mind back to the first few years of the coalition. They were a complete and utter shambles in every sense of the word, yet by the end of their 5 years there was a narrative created that they were 'safe hands' for the country. The media created that and they've created the chaos that currently surrounds the Labour Party. Corbyn's team absolutely should've combated it in a more effective manner so in that sense they've only themselves to blame.

Pretty much every person in the country will tell you the Labour Party is in disarray now. If you ask 9/10 people why I very much doubt they'll be able to tell you. People get their politics in two minute snippets on the news or headlines from the front of the Daily Mail. If all you ever see is negativity then that's what will stick in your mind. The next Labour leader whoever that is has got to address this problem immediately. Unfortunately, I've no idea how they do it.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5445 on: April 5, 2017, 11:55:12 am »
Are you talking about the vote last October? Which I suppose is topical because May is in Saudi, or have I completely missed something.

Have the Canary report on that vote which misunderstands the arithmetic of a parliamentary majority.
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/10/27/100-labour-mps-just-scuppered-crucial-corbyn-led-vote-parliament-tweets/



Ahh - it appeared on my timeline yesterday.
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Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5446 on: April 5, 2017, 12:25:07 pm »
This obsession with Israel from some quarters in the Labour Party really is disturbing. Ken Livingston still going on about this when you would think other pressing matters would be more important. When you start bringing up Hitler and the Nazis all that comes to mind is the countless amount of dead bodies piled up in death camps.


Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5447 on: April 5, 2017, 12:56:17 pm »
We've reached the situation where Labour are probably facing electoral oblivion. He has played a huge part in that through his naivety but there have been other factors at play.

I cast my mind back to the first few years of the coalition. They were a complete and utter shambles in every sense of the word, yet by the end of their 5 years there was a narrative created that they were 'safe hands' for the country. The media created that and they've created the chaos that currently surrounds the Labour Party. Corbyn's team absolutely should've combated it in a more effective manner so in that sense they've only themselves to blame.

Pretty much every person in the country will tell you the Labour Party is in disarray now. If you ask 9/10 people why I very much doubt they'll be able to tell you. People get their politics in two minute snippets on the news or headlines from the front of the Daily Mail. If all you ever see is negativity then that's what will stick in your mind. The next Labour leader whoever that is has got to address this problem immediately. Unfortunately, I've no idea how they do it.

Some want him to be more measured and statesman-like (is that a euphemism for a liar I wonder?) and some want him to be even more passionate than this in his condemnation of these appalling things in government.
I answered someone else this morning who accused him of giving no leadership with this response.

Perhaps the dark controllers who stand well behind the mass media front-men have issued an edict which is this.
If you value your journalist's role and your future with us, under no circumstances are you to report on ANYTHING "good" the Labour party are actively pursuing. In interview, just keep on pressing him to reconsider his position as Leader of the Opposition.

A tad Orwellian perhaps? But if this is the case or whatever it is, it is conniving and illegally cunning and even worse, it's working.
Unless and until the Party can deliver its communications directly to the voters, the message will not be allowed to get through.

If my conspiracy theory is right - and how the party propose ever to get around that when the media moguls have firmly slammed shut their access doors is difficult to see - then the poll ratings will remain critically low, reinforced by the people ALWAYS being fed negative hogwash by the controlled media who will ensure at the same time they must never report anything positive.

It's another conspiracy theory but whatever it is, it's bloody working well in favour of the worst Tory government of my lifetime.
Wish we could get some journo with a modicum of principle to break cover and spill the beans on this theory and then the entire capitalist house of cards collapses as a consequence of their dirty manipulation and control over our allegedly "free press".
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5448 on: April 5, 2017, 01:06:27 pm »
Some want him to be more measured and statesman-like (is that a euphemism for a liar I wonder?) and some want him to be even more passionate than this in his condemnation of these appalling things in government.
I answered someone else this morning who accused him of giving no leadership with this response.

Perhaps the dark controllers who stand well behind the mass media front-men have issued an edict which is this.
If you value your journalist's role and your future with us, under no circumstances are you to report on ANYTHING "good" the Labour party are actively pursuing. In interview, just keep on pressing him to reconsider his position as Leader of the Opposition.

A tad Orwellian perhaps? But if this is the case or whatever it is, it is conniving and illegally cunning and even worse, it's working.
Unless and until the Party can deliver its communications directly to the voters, the message will not be allowed to get through.

If my conspiracy theory is right - and how the party propose ever to get around that when the media moguls have firmly slammed shut their access doors is difficult to see - then the poll ratings will remain critically low, reinforced by the people ALWAYS being fed negative hogwash by the controlled media who will ensure at the same time they must never report anything positive.

It's another conspiracy theory but whatever it is, it's bloody working well in favour of the worst Tory government of my lifetime.
Wish we could get some journo with a modicum of principle to break cover and spill the beans on this theory and then the entire capitalist house of cards collapses as a consequence of their dirty manipulation and control over our allegedly "free press".

I've yet to see any political report from Laura Kuenssberg not feature a comment questioning Corbyn's leadership. We all know his failings at PMQs but he's definitely had some decent exchanges, yet each and every time she has failed to acknowledge that.

The media are making choices on a daily basis to undermine democracy in this country. I agree with the majority on here that Corbyn's brand is now tainted repair but this will happen with the next Labour leader as well unless a clear strategy is created to counter it.

And it's quite clear to me that strategy is definitely not what the likes of Mandelson will advocate. Whatever disaster Corbyn will have at the next G.E, it would be replicated by a New Labour style approach.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5449 on: April 5, 2017, 01:10:35 pm »
Some want him to be more measured and statesman-like (is that a euphemism for a liar I wonder?) and some want him to be even more passionate than this in his condemnation of these appalling things in government.
I answered someone else this morning who accused him of giving no leadership with this response.

Perhaps the dark controllers who stand well behind the mass media front-men have issued an edict which is this.
If you value your journalist's role and your future with us, under no circumstances are you to report on ANYTHING "good" the Labour party are actively pursuing. In interview, just keep on pressing him to reconsider his position as Leader of the Opposition.

A tad Orwellian perhaps? But if this is the case or whatever it is, it is conniving and illegally cunning and even worse, it's working.
Unless and until the Party can deliver its communications directly to the voters, the message will not be allowed to get through.

If my conspiracy theory is right - and how the party propose ever to get around that when the media moguls have firmly slammed shut their access doors is difficult to see - then the poll ratings will remain critically low, reinforced by the people ALWAYS being fed negative hogwash by the controlled media who will ensure at the same time they must never report anything positive.

It's another conspiracy theory but whatever it is, it's bloody working well in favour of the worst Tory government of my lifetime.
Wish we could get some journo with a modicum of principle to break cover and spill the beans on this theory and then the entire capitalist house of cards collapses as a consequence of their dirty manipulation and control over our allegedly "free press".

I just wanted him to fight as hard as possible for Remain, and after the campaign was over, to offer the most effective opposition possible to ameliorate the negative effects. Just that, which was Labour party policy, or at least it was when I last voted Labour, and he'd have my vote in the next GE. Instead, he was lazy and half hearted at best during the campaign, and the day after the referendum, he pushed the hard Brexit position. That wasn't what I voted for, on the biggest issue of my lifetime. And since the Labour members re-elected him afterwards despite knowing what he was about, I have no confidence that the Labour party under Corbyn and his faction are to be trusted on anything. I trust them to say one thing and do another. Even if they were to say that they believe in socialism and a better world, they can't be trusted.
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Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5450 on: April 5, 2017, 01:20:03 pm »
I just wanted him to fight as hard as possible for Remain, and after the campaign was over, to offer the most effective opposition possible to ameliorate the negative effects. Just that, which was Labour party policy, or at least it was when I last voted Labour, and he'd have my vote in the next GE. Instead, he was lazy and half hearted at best during the campaign, and the day after the referendum, he pushed the hard Brexit position. That wasn't what I voted for, on the biggest issue of my lifetime. And since the Labour members re-elected him afterwards despite knowing what he was about, I have no confidence that the Labour party under Corbyn and his faction are to be trusted on anything. I trust them to say one thing and do another. Even if they were to say that they believe in socialism and a better world, they can't be trusted.

I wasn't a passionate remainer but I like the idea of freedom of movement and Europe being united etc.

It wasn't the reason I took an interest in politics though. It's depressing because ideas of social justice, education and health are going to be pushed to the back of the queue for two/three years whilst this government get away with complete chaos in those areas.

I get that you feel let down by the Labour Party but the alternatives are surely worse.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5451 on: April 5, 2017, 01:33:18 pm »
I've yet to see any political report from Laura Kuenssberg not feature a comment questioning Corbyn's leadership. We all know his failings at PMQs but he's definitely had some decent exchanges, yet each and every time she has failed to acknowledge that.

The media are making choices on a daily basis to undermine democracy in this country. I agree with the majority on here that Corbyn's brand is now tainted repair but this will happen with the next Labour leader as well unless a clear strategy is created to counter it.

And it's quite clear to me that strategy is definitely not what the likes of Mandelson will advocate. Whatever disaster Corbyn will have at the next G.E, it would be replicated by a New Labour style approach.

On the contrary. The media subjecting the leader of the opposition to scrutiny strengthens democracy in this country.

There is no obligation, nor should there be in the future, that the media should 'praise' whichever politicians we like.
« Last Edit: April 5, 2017, 01:36:13 pm by Classycara »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5452 on: April 5, 2017, 01:33:46 pm »
Perhaps the dark controllers who stand well behind the mass media front-men have issued an edict which is this...


Can you explain what you mean and produce some evidence for it or drop the conspiracy theories.  Whatever you're referring to... Deep State, Illuminati, The Rothschilds etc... please keep it off here.

The simple fact is that Corbyn is shit at his job and so are most of his team. Not a bit shit but totally and utterly shit.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5453 on: April 5, 2017, 01:39:19 pm »
Can you explain what you mean and produce some evidence for it or drop the conspiracy theories.  Whatever you're referring to... Deep State, Illuminati, The Rothschilds etc... please keep it off here.

The simple fact is that Corbyn is shit at his job and so are most of his team. Not a bit shit but totally and utterly shit.

Yes, as is often the case the answer to most of the hypotheticals he raises in his (self-professed) conspiracy theory is more simple than what he's reached for.

He describes these Tories as the worst Government of his lifetime, and I'm inclined to agree since I only remember as far back as Major. The real problem is simple - this is the worst Labour leadership of my lifetime. I expect the same applies in Johnno's lifetime too

Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5454 on: April 5, 2017, 01:43:24 pm »
On the contrary. The media subjecting the leader of the opposition to scrutiny strengthens democracy in this country.

There is no obligation, nor should there be in the future, that the media should 'praise' whichever politicians we like.

There has to be an element of objectivity for it not to descend into absolute farce though. I don't think having daily stories surrounding Corbyn's leadership strengthens democracy, I'd much rather they were focusing on the issues.

However, we all know the game and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5455 on: April 5, 2017, 01:48:33 pm »
There has to be an element of objectivity for it not to descend into absolute farce though. I don't think having daily stories surrounding Corbyn's leadership strengthens democracy, I'd much rather they were focusing on the issues.

However, we all know the game and that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

What are the issues? Corbyn and his team need to set the agenda themselves, but they don't have a proactive bone in their body. If they set the agenda, the media will report.

Unfortunately taxpayers (and members) money is wasted on him hiring numpties and cronies. I'm less concerned about the members though, since the majority of them (unlike the taxpayer) inflicted this on themselves.

Getting media releases out in time for the news and the papers is a basic competency, as is relationship management. They seem to think they are above it, and then whinge like babies when they suffer the consequences.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5456 on: April 5, 2017, 02:39:12 pm »
How can anyone blame anyone else but Corbyn for the problems Labour face? He has been leader since 2015, he has had plenty of time to cement his place and oppose the Tories. He has failed to do so. He needs to go. If he remains leader until 2020 these 5 years will go down as an utter disaster in the parties history.

Who knows how Labour recover after 2020 election. How does he plan on leading Labour to victory? What is the strategy?

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5457 on: April 5, 2017, 02:47:13 pm »
On the contrary. The media subjecting the leader of the opposition to scrutiny strengthens democracy in this country.

There is no obligation, nor should there be in the future, that the media should 'praise' whichever politicians we like.

Haven't you left something out of your response to Danny55?  Why is it you only mention scrutinising the Leader of the Opposition as strengthening democracy? What is your opinion of how she fails to exert the same energies with rigour and gusto that in your view are designed to strengthen democracy when she's interviewing the PM or any other leading Tory minister?

Can you explain what you mean and produce some evidence for it or drop the conspiracy theories.  Whatever you're referring to... Deep State, Illuminati, The Rothschilds etc... please keep it off here.

The simple fact is that Corbyn is shit at his job and so are most of his team. Not a bit shit but totally and utterly shit.

If I could get my hands on "evidence" Alan I'd be shouting it from the rooftops as well you will know hence that's why I called it a theory. I had none of the names you proffered in mind when I posted what was and is if you prefer it, my opinion. There, that ought to set things right.

Plenty of others here have their personal opinions/theories - and this is mine in the absence any prospect of discovering proof - a forlorn hope indeed.
There HAS to be an underlying basis that explains the concerted and targeted crusade by LK to denigrate Jeremy Corbyn as she certainly has done at each and every turn. She is extraordinarily and demonstrably biased  and it has shone through in all that she does yet she continues to get away with it.
 
Bloody hell here I go again - let's see me get chastised for having yet another non-provable theory.
« Last Edit: April 5, 2017, 02:56:43 pm by JohnnoWhite »
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5458 on: April 5, 2017, 03:04:49 pm »
Haven't you left something out of your response to Danny55?  Why is it you only mention scrutinising the Leader of the Opposition as strengthening democracy? What is your opinion of how she fails to exert the same energies with rigour and gusto that in your view are designed to strengthen democracy when she's interviewing the PM or any other leading Tory minister?


Not in a Labour thread, no I don't think I left anything out.

There HAS to be an underlying basis that explains the concerted and targeted crusade by LK to denigrate Jeremy Corbyn as she certainly has done at each and every turn.

There IS.

Journalists work on limited time and at pace. It helps them when there is a narrative that provides them with a simple framework to follow up. In Corbyn's case, it's that he and his office are bafflingly incompetent.

On the rare occasions journalists are allowed access to ask Corbyn questions, they have to try to find something newsworthy in a sea of plattitudes and circuitous repetitive rants about 'natural justice' etc.

An existentially shite Labour leadership and party is newsworthy at the moment. And more so than their limited offerings to the press challenging the Tories.

If you throw in the contempt with which Corbyn and his team treat journalist colleagues, you can understand if they're not exactly desperately motivated to be overly cuddly with him and his press office.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5459 on: April 5, 2017, 03:11:30 pm »


It's another conspiracy theory but whatever it is, it's bloody working well in favour of the worst Tory government of my lifetime.
Wish we could get some journo with a modicum of principle to break cover and spill the beans on this theory and then the entire capitalist house of cards collapses as a consequence of their dirty manipulation and control over our allegedly "free press".

I just about remember McMillan and Home, first voted during Heath's premiership and distinctly remember the sheer vindictive wickedness of Thatcher ably supported by Tebbit, Keith Joseph etc. I would suggest that collective of free market fanatics were the worst Tory government who gave the current shower their obscene template.

In relation to the press there has always been a Conservative bias and it's up to the Labour party to present a unified, competent Opposition. They need to learn not to give the media ammunition to use against them.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5460 on: April 5, 2017, 03:23:46 pm »
I just about remember McMillan and Home, first voted during Heath's premiership and distinctly remember the sheer vindictive wickedness of Thatcher ably supported by Tebbit, Keith Joseph etc. I would suggest that collective of free market fanatics were the worst Tory government who gave the current shower their obscene template.

In relation to the press there has always been a Conservative bias and it's up to the Labour party to present a unified, competent Opposition. They need to learn not to give the media ammunition to use against them.

Oh I well remember Eden, McMillan, Home, Heath et al and the lying mob that accompanied and promoted the Old Witch herself into riding roughshod over the nation. I still say that this incumbent bunch of scum are far worse and this is why. They choose to be so.
There was a time when old-school Tories though they might have secretly dreamed of turning the screw on the mass of the people, were prevented from so doing by a certain "noblesse oblige". The ascent of the Thatcherite visionaries have long since expunged that obligation from Tory approved lexicographies. 
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5461 on: April 5, 2017, 04:25:25 pm »
I wasn't a passionate remainer but I like the idea of freedom of movement and Europe being united etc.

It wasn't the reason I took an interest in politics though. It's depressing because ideas of social justice, education and health are going to be pushed to the back of the queue for two/three years whilst this government get away with complete chaos in those areas.

I get that you feel let down by the Labour Party but the alternatives are surely worse.

What alternatives? On the relevant issue(s), May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour are one and the same. Check Hansard if you disagree.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5462 on: April 5, 2017, 04:55:05 pm »
The relevant issues?? Is cutting the disability benefits of the most vulnerable in our society not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is underfunding the NHS not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is the failure to build enough houses for our people to live in not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is the slashing of housing benefits right now not one of YOUR "relevant issues"?  Is the attempted re-introduction of grammar schools, diverting funds away from the Department of Education to the detriment of the vast majority of our kids, not one of YOUR "relevant issues"?

You gleefully point to there being no difference between May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour and to back up that nonsensical claim you reference Hansard. Is this is wind-up or is it some errant nonsense masquerading as your version of political repartee?
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5463 on: April 5, 2017, 04:57:48 pm »
He is responding to a post about Brexit, Freedom of Movement, and a united Europe. On those relevant issues, Corbyn has moved Labour to fall in line with May's Tories. That's a fact unfortunately, not a wind up

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5464 on: April 5, 2017, 06:21:19 pm »
If I could get my hands on "evidence" Alan I'd be shouting it from the rooftops as well you will know hence that's why I called it a theory. I had none of the names you proffered in mind when I posted what was and is if you prefer it, my opinion. There, that ought to set things right.

Plenty of others here have their personal opinions/theories - and this is mine in the absence any prospect of discovering proof - a forlorn hope indeed.
There HAS to be an underlying basis that explains the concerted and targeted crusade by LK to denigrate Jeremy Corbyn as she certainly has done at each and every turn. She is extraordinarily and demonstrably biased  and it has shone through in all that she does yet she continues to get away with it.
 
Bloody hell here I go again - let's see me get chastised for having yet another non-provable theory.

Johnno, there are people who meet in darkened rooms and manipulate things to suit their own interests. That's never been in dispute - they are conspiracies not conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories are the type of grand conspiracy that has all powerful and ubiquitous control over events. If you ask me if Paul Dacre conspires to fuck over the Labour Party because he despises socialism I'll happily agree with you. Do I think there is some shadowy group behind him pulling the levers then I'd have to say no. Not because it's not possible but because it's not likely and there's no evidence to support it.

As for Laura Kuennsberg and the hundreds and thousands of other journalists who would have to be in on this massive conspiracy, I think there is clearly a lot of confirmation bias in play with Corbyn supporters. If your starting point is that Jeremy Corbyn is a great leader and the establishment is scared of him then of course it's obvious that there has to be a coordinated and concentrated attack on him to make him look bad.

The evidence, which is clear to most people, is that Corbyn is a useless buffoon, incapable of leading the Party and that is the reason he looks so bad in interviews.

There probably is a right-wing media conspiracy about Corbyn - he's there best electoral weapon and they would ideally want him in place going into the next election so my view is that they've been going easy on him. They could run endless stories in the Mail and Express about him if they wanted to, like they have done in the past with every other Labour leader. There's been a few but nothing concerted.

Most of the worst stories about him are self-inflicted and totally avoidable.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5465 on: April 5, 2017, 06:31:13 pm »
The relevant issues?? Is cutting the disability benefits of the most vulnerable in our society not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is underfunding the NHS not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is the failure to build enough houses for our people to live in not one of YOUR "relevant issues"? Is the slashing of housing benefits right now not one of YOUR "relevant issues"?  Is the attempted re-introduction of grammar schools, diverting funds away from the Department of Education to the detriment of the vast majority of our kids, not one of YOUR "relevant issues"?

You gleefully point to there being no difference between May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour and to back up that nonsensical claim you reference Hansard. Is this is wind-up or is it some errant nonsense masquerading as your version of political repartee?

Europe affects everything else. Corbyn stated his position the day after the referendum, a position which we now call hard Brexit. Not only that, he also whipped his party to vote with the Tories on this, so it's no slip of the tongue, but formal Labour party policy. Both parties are Europhobes, with implications for everything else. No difference between the Blue Europhobes and the Red Europhobes, as they vote as one on this, with Corbyn leading the Red wing and May the Blue wing.
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Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5466 on: April 5, 2017, 06:43:30 pm »
He is responding to a post about Brexit, Freedom of Movement, and a united Europe. On those relevant issues, Corbyn has moved Labour to fall in line with May's Tories. That's a fact unfortunately, not a wind up

Well that's clarified things. So is the rule now there can be no widening of the narrow agenda to topple JC? Response posts can only respond to the mentioned specifics only? Where's the wider political picture which naturally flows from ALL such exchanges?

Come on - let's get down amongst all of the opposing policies instead of the Parliamentary theatricals of the Brexit crap. To tar THAT as simplistically as "May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour are one and the same - and check Hansard if you disagree" is disingenuous at best and bloody shit-stirring for the sake of it at worst.
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5467 on: April 5, 2017, 06:45:02 pm »
It's totally disingenuous to accuse posters on this thread of not being deeply concerned about benefit cuts, the NHS, the disabled, affordable housing etc etc.  I know I am.



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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5468 on: April 5, 2017, 06:52:18 pm »
It's totally disingenuous to accuse posters on this thread of not being deeply concerned about benefit cuts, the NHS, the disabled, affordable housing etc etc.  I know I am.

EU regulations were a barrier to the Tories getting free rein on these things. Now that we're out, and out hard, there are no more restrictions on what the Tories can do. Do people remember the Tories suggesting that certain areas be left to decay, prior to EU funding regeneration of areas that the Tories would rather see rot?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5469 on: April 5, 2017, 06:53:30 pm »
EU regulations were a barrier to the Tories getting free rein on these things. Now that we're out, and out hard, there are no more restrictions on what the Tories can do. Do people remember the Tories suggesting that certain areas be left to decay, prior to EU funding regeneration of areas that the Tories would rather see rot?

Oh yes - managed decline.
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all"  Thumper (1942)

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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5470 on: April 5, 2017, 06:53:54 pm »
Well that's clarified things. So is the rule now there can be no widening of the narrow agenda to topple JC? Response posts can only respond to the mentioned specifics only? Where's the wider political picture which naturally flows from ALL such exchanges?

Come on - let's get down amongst all of the opposing policies instead of the Parliamentary theatricals of the Brexit crap. To tar THAT as simplistically as "May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour are one and the same - and check Hansard if you disagree" is disingenuous at best and bloody shit-stirring for the sake of it at worst.

Hey, Blair is remembered by the Left for Iraq and nothing else. Why are you complaining about Corbyn being remembered for supporting hard Brexit?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5471 on: April 5, 2017, 11:35:58 pm »
Hey, Blair is remembered by the Left for Iraq and nothing else. Why are you complaining about Corbyn being remembered for supporting hard Brexit?

A. No, Blair isn't remembered solely for Iraq although perhaps he ought to be because tens of thousands of human beings lost their lives on the back of his and, in concert with that other stranger to the truth, GDubbya's say-so. Now that's just too glaringly offensive simply to go without challenge or comment.
 
B. I'm not at all complaining about you remembering JC for the 3 line whip decision. I'm complaining about you simply choosing to ignore all of Labour's diametrically opposed policy differences from the Tories as if they did not exist and micro-condensing it all down to the ludicrous claim that there's no difference between May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour Party. Equally, that asinine assertion is too glaringly offensive to go without challenge or comment.
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5472 on: April 5, 2017, 11:53:20 pm »
A. No, Blair isn't remembered solely for Iraq although perhaps he ought to be because tens of thousands of human beings lost their lives on the back of his and, in concert with that other stranger to the truth, GDubbya's say-so. Now that's just too glaringly offensive simply to go without challenge or comment.
 
B. I'm not at all complaining about you remembering JC for the 3 line whip decision. I'm complaining about you simply choosing to ignore all of Labour's diametrically opposed policy differences from the Tories as if they did not exist and micro-condensing it all down to the ludicrous claim that there's no difference between May's Tories and Corbyn's Labour Party. Equally, that asinine assertion is too glaringly offensive to go without challenge or comment.

What good are the supposedly diametrically opposed policy differences? Corbyn claimed to be pro-Remain and thus led the Labour side of the Remain campaign. Yet he did so half heartedly and lazily at best, and once the result was up, he showed his true colours and enthusiastically supported the hard Brexit side. He deceived me and the other Remain-supporting Labour voters. How can he be trusted on anything else, given the magnitude of the effect of this deception? And given that the members have re-elected him despite knowing this, how can the party be trusted on anything they say they support? Corbyn lied, repeatedly, on the biggest issue of my lifetime. And the members and thus the party support him regardless. Corbyn, and by extension Labour, can't be trusted.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5473 on: April 6, 2017, 12:08:00 am »
Corbyn's utterly shit at leading a political party.

There's the problem, it's that easy.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5474 on: April 6, 2017, 12:19:05 am »
Oh dear...







I think this may well be going to really erupt quite soon, there's much disgruntlement amongst the until now faithfull.



I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5475 on: April 6, 2017, 12:32:43 am »
What good are the supposedly diametrically opposed policy differences? Corbyn claimed to be pro-Remain and thus led the Labour side of the Remain campaign. Yet he did so half heartedly and lazily at best, and once the result was up, he showed his true colours and enthusiastically supported the hard Brexit side. He deceived me and the other Remain-supporting Labour voters. How can he be trusted on anything else, given the magnitude of the effect of this deception? And given that the members have re-elected him despite knowing this, how can the party be trusted on anything they say they support? Corbyn lied, repeatedly, on the biggest issue of my lifetime. And the members and thus the party support him regardless. Corbyn, and by extension Labour, can't be trusted.

There's no point in any further argument and counter-argument. You see it as you see it and I don't. It's clear your mind is closed against the bloke. Nada mas.
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5476 on: April 6, 2017, 12:37:29 am »
There's no point in any further argument and counter-argument. You see it as you see it and I don't. It's clear your mind is closed against the bloke. Nada mas.

I didn't believe in him in 2015, but I was prepared to vote Labour anyway. It was his piece on 24th June 2016 that made up my mind. He can't be trusted to tell the truth. Just because he says something, doesn't mean he actually believes it, or is prepared to work for it. He will say he supports something, then the first chance he gets, he will support the opposite side, which was his position all along.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5477 on: April 6, 2017, 12:39:36 am »
Oh dear...







I think this may well be going to really erupt quite soon, there's much disgruntlement amongst the until now faithfull.





I think you could be right - and sadly, very much of this whole shebang has been contrived. I do think history is rather on Livingstone's side here. But the fall-out from his continuing to say that fact infuriates some of the immovable Jewish members.  Outcome? A fairly major disaster. Avoidable? Could and should have been. 
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5478 on: April 6, 2017, 12:48:28 am »
I would do anything for Corbz, but I won't do that...


Galloway could make an album...

Other hits ,...

Lov'in an old dictator.

Trots love got to do with it

What's new pussycat...

Back in the USSR
« Last Edit: April 6, 2017, 12:52:01 am by less grotesquely offensive? »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5479 on: April 6, 2017, 12:52:08 am »
I would do anything for Corbz, but I won't do that...


Galloway could make an album...

Twat out of Hell perhaps??  ;D ;D ;)
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994