Topic: RAWK Round Table: Liverpool 4-3 Swansea City

[Black Bull Nova]

Saw an article in the paper suggesting we brought back the spirit of Keegan, initially I thought was appropriate until I realised they meant Newcastle, I was more of the view that this was the Liverpool of the early seventies when they fought with spirit (often Kevin himself) and never gave up. It is what has defined United for so long and defined us often by the lack of it. The crowd feed of it and self belief for everyone drags you over the line. You simply believe you are going to win so that if it hasn't happened the effort level goes up until you make it happen and grind your opponents down. Yesterday it was Jordan Henderson who showed that spirit and it paid off, there is so much more to football than just coaching and skill, belief and the will to win seems to be more instilled than I can remember for some years, Swansea and Fulham have shown that and we are loving it.

[stockdam]

I also "watched" the match on the radio..........well only through one eye at times as it was so hard to call who would win even though we were generally on top. I pefer watching these matches on MOTD when I know the result.

I don't really think there's any point analysing the match nor the tactics as we played like a boxer in the last round who was throwing everything into the win. The problem is that as a spectator you are also half expecting a sucker punch from the opponent.

I hope we throw caution to the wind and just trust that we have the firepower to win every game. It's the run in now to the finish. The final round has started and we must trust our strengths and go all out. I'd love us to play tight but I really think we haven't got that part of the game sussed yet. We are like a young raw heavyweight who has a massive punch but who at times leaves his chin too exposed.

I think I'm going to have to watch the remaining matches through my fingers as it's just too exciting at times to bear.

Let's get stuck in Liverpool and go for blood.

YNWA will ring out at the "end of the fight" as we recognise how our players have fought to the last.

[SquirrelandGman]

The best defense is a good offense

- Confucious

[Timbo's Goals]

I watched this game on the radio. In a kitchen. At the in-laws. In the middle of nowhere with 4 young children, and I am alone with my interest in football. There's nothing worse than 'watching' games on the radio. Not games like these anyway, in a house where shouts of 'GET THE FUCKING FUCK IN!!' just wouldn't be understood.

Kids would come in and talk to me.. my own, and others, asking questions about things that kids ask questions about, and the adults would come in occasionally, asking questions that adults ask questions about. 'Is there a game on?' 'Yes.' 'Is it your team playing?' Yes. Are you winning? Yes.... 'Is there a game on?' Yes. Liverpool? Yes. What's the score? It's 2 all. My face is straight faced and I'm trying my best to be my usual, engaging self, but I'm becoming concerned that the underlying face of 'Piss off and leave me the fuck alone.' is showing through. It's a small kitchen and I can't sit down anymore. I try. Then I play chess on my phone (I've just got it working again after months without one) to try and well... I don't know. I did 8 moves against the computer and turned it off and went back to the pacing.

At 2-0 I'm punching air quietly through gritted teeth and I know we're going to get a third. Maybe just before half time or soon after. But there's always a free kick to give away. Always a corner to defend. And in a blink of an eye it's 2-2.

I've never really known what 'type' of fan I am - glass half full or half empty - negative or positive - it's a total mess, but up until the third, this was the inexplicable loss at home that's been coming. The Chelsea result was now looking positive, and I was in negative twat area. I still thought we'd score again... I thought we might score a few more maybe, but they were going to score a shitload too. Or something.

When Jordan skipped thru to follow up and slot in the forth, I gave it a bit of a cheer, but simultaneously realised I was now heading into 20 minutes of serious pain. 'And Swansea have a throw in in Liverpools half.. and it's taken quickly...' Shit me. On the telly welly or at the ground, you've got red shirts clearly visible... shirts that will steal that ball or head it out or look composed and organised. All you've got on the radio, is Toure, Skrtel and Mignolet (god LOVE them) in your head - their names yet to surface into the throat of the commentator. '... and he passes it back to Mignolet'. 'Dad! Dad! Can we do that Stegosaurus now Dad? Please Dad.' Not yet, not yet... my head in my hands. Then, with 5 or so minutes to go, I get handed the 6 month old daughter. Can you have her for a bit? What? 'And Coutinho loses the ball...' I can't even explain the situation to the wife... I can't even explain to her that this is not something I want right now... 'and GerRRARD!!! ........... (pause)....... and I lift her up and I tell myself not to throw her into the ceiling.... 'hits the post!' .. and... 'oh so close'. Don't throw her across the room. Oh my god, they're going to get the equaliser aren't they? They are now aren't they? WAAAAAAAA... WAAAAAAA ... who's a noisy little baby? And I do dad things to amuse her wails away. Then, a goal at Newcastle... I get a break from the pain... and I give her back... 'she's shitting herself'. And then we're back.. still 4-3... 45 seconds to go. How long is 45 seconds I ask myself. Then they disappear to the rugby. TO THE FUCKING RUGBY!! Not just a read out of a team sheet but a bloody description of what happened yesterday! I was spitting teeth, sweating and in a mild panic. Then those long last two minutes. Pain. The pain. Then the whistle. The hills are aliiiive.....

Ha ha.

What a fabulous post. Loved it to bits. We've all been there F.

Something none of us can explain. But you just did. Beautifully.

 

[Danny_]

http://www.matchhighlight.com/full-matches-review/premier-league-full-matches-review/liverpool-v-swansea-city-3/

If anybody wants to watch it again, full game here.  I did watch it again and the defensive performance wasn't as bad as it felt at the time.  When you lose 2 goals in the space of, I think it was, 3 minutes, you begin to start focusing on every little thing.  We were put under pressure by individual mistakes quite often.  Coutinho was guilty in the first half a few times, Johnson once in the second half (when Bonnie backheeled the ball and Mignolet produced a fantastic save).  Other than this, it bears remembering that the first goal was a magnificent strike from Shelvey that was virtually unstoppable. The second goal was poor marking on a set-piece - we let them get a free header.  Whether it was Agger or Skrtel who should have been marking Bonnie, I am not sure.  The third goal was never a penalty.  So, we were quite hard done by in that respect. 

That said, they did get quite a bit of space in the centre.  Part of it was Gerrard being drawn out of position - went to the man with the ball too often.  Part of it was that Henderson wasn't back as much to defend and cover the gaps with his incessant running like he normally does.  He did defend a lot for us but not as much as normal. But, the biggest difference today, for me, was that when we pressed them, we weren't hunting in packs the way we did against Arsenal.  When we press properly, the defense seems to do just fine.   Whether this was down to Swansea playing really well (lets give them some credit here) or us or a bit of both, I am not sure.  I think BR will have plenty of time to address this.

3 tough away games coming up next (what happened to Sunderland at home??? It's just disappeared from the schedule) and we really need 7/9 points to challenge for the title.  It's going to be a big ask but BR is right - we can't stop attacking.  You don't win the league by settling for a draw and if you look at the stats, the best attack has won the league more often than not over the past decade.  We definitely have to tighten up at the back but our attack is just frightening. We shouldn't forget that.  Maybe, we need more of a balance - when we get our noses in front like we did at 4-3, maybe, it's time for the full backs to stop pushing up and hold back the way Mourinho plays. 

At this stage of the competition, it doesn't matter how you do it.  All that matters is the points and we got 3 of them this weekend.  4 points off the top, 11 games to go.  It could be worse despite all the talk of defensive frailties.      

[LFC at first sight]

"The other point which became obvious is the bipolar nature of Coutinho's talent. On one hand, when he is on song, he is unstoppable, and probably only matched by Suarez, Sterling and Sturridge in terms of expression of talent (yes, that includes Gerrard). But when he isn't on form, he is a liability. In his eagerness to try to perform like he did in the corresponding fixture last season, he spent too much time in attacking positions and not enough dropping back in to support Gerrard. After the game, Henderson got the brickbats for being “too forward”, but in fact heat maps and average positioning show that he actually spent more time in the defensive half:



Coutinho, on the other hand, spent the first 60 minutes or so playing up almost as far as Sterling was:



That's not to say he didn't get back – he did on several occasions. However, his general play was more attacking than Henderson's was, and this created a gap in the midfield at times that DeGuzman and Shelvey in particular took advantage of. The addition of Allen in the second half, of course, settled this gap more (together with the removal of Shelvey), and Henderson's forward forays obviously paid dividends with the winner. Still, though, it is something to watch out for in Coutinho's game for the future, because as well as the Gerrard/Lucas decision, we me might also see Rodgers considering the “Coutinho/Sterling” dilemma too, if Allen can offer more stability in central midfield positioning."




PoP, I was wondering if Coutinho's positional sense was also impacted by how aggressive he was looking to press in Swansea's final third? In the games where he was exceptional, Arsenal (H) being the most ready example, many of his interceptions/tackles were in our own half and this led to lightning breaks towards the opposition.

By contrast, while the effort was there in the Swansea game, he didn't seem that interested/able to get the ball off the likes of Dyer, Britton and De Guzman in our half. The bipolar effect you mentioned then came into play, with him drifting upfield to win the ball. Like Suarez, when he tries too hard, it appears to his detriment instead.

Also, Gerrard's success as a deep-lying playmaker requires PC and JH to be his runners, and if one or the other runs off to his own beat, I think our captain's head goes because his internal defensive compass goes awry. That's the sense I get each time our midfield was overrun.

[Halibut-Thumb]

Rogers in training this week..

[GrkStav]

Both Swansea City's 1st and 2nd goal, despite Shelvey's final shot being a 'worldie', were the result of poor defensive play by our dedicated defenders, central midfielders and wide forwards.

I am happy for the win, of course, but, despite their 3rd not being a penalty kick infraction in the least, we did not execute well defensively all over the pitch.

The addition of my personal favorite at LB upon his return from injury did not fill me with any great satisfaction. What little (if any) was gained by having him instead of Cissokho in attack was (more than) balanced by what we lost defensively. Unless PoP or other experts demonstrate to me otherwise, I cannot accept that what Johnson did prior to their 2nd goal was 'correct defending'.

[royhendo]

Yes. But also, a bit tactically.

This is what I want to explore. PM incoming...

[royhendo]

I watched this game on the radio. In a kitchen. At the in-laws. In the middle of nowhere with 4 young children, and I am alone with my interest in football. There's nothing worse than 'watching' games on the radio. Not games like these anyway, in a house where shouts of 'GET THE FUCKING FUCK IN!!' just wouldn't be understood.

Kids would come in and talk to me.. my own, and others, asking questions about things that kids ask questions about, and the adults would come in occasionally, asking questions that adults ask questions about. 'Is there a game on?' 'Yes.' 'Is it your team playing?' Yes. Are you winning? Yes.... 'Is there a game on?' Yes. Liverpool? Yes. What's the score? It's 2 all. My face is straight faced and I'm trying my best to be my usual, engaging self, but I'm becoming concerned that the underlying face of 'Piss off and leave me the fuck alone.' is showing through. It's a small kitchen and I can't sit down anymore. I try. Then I play chess on my phone (I've just got it working again after months without one) to try and well... I don't know. I did 8 moves against the computer and turned it off and went back to the pacing.

At 2-0 I'm punching air quietly through gritted teeth and I know we're going to get a third. Maybe just before half time or soon after. But there's always a free kick to give away. Always a corner to defend. And in a blink of an eye it's 2-2.

I've never really known what 'type' of fan I am - glass half full or half empty - negative or positive - it's a total mess, but up until the third, this was the inexplicable loss at home that's been coming. The Chelsea result was now looking positive, and I was in negative twat area. I still thought we'd score again... I thought we might score a few more maybe, but they were going to score a shitload too. Or something.

When Jordan skipped thru to follow up and slot in the forth, I gave it a bit of a cheer, but simultaneously realised I was now heading into 20 minutes of serious pain. 'And Swansea have a throw in in Liverpools half.. and it's taken quickly...' Shit me. On the telly welly or at the ground, you've got red shirts clearly visible... shirts that will steal that ball or head it out or look composed and organised. All you've got on the radio, is Toure, Skrtel and Mignolet (god LOVE them) in your head - their names yet to surface into the throat of the commentator. '... and he passes it back to Mignolet'. 'Dad! Dad! Can we do that Stegosaurus now Dad? Please Dad.' Not yet, not yet... my head in my hands. Then, with 5 or so minutes to go, I get handed the 6 month old daughter. Can you have her for a bit? What? 'And Coutinho loses the ball...' I can't even explain the situation to the wife... I can't even explain to her that this is not something I want right now... 'and GerRRARD!!! ........... (pause)....... and I lift her up and I tell myself not to throw her into the ceiling.... 'hits the post!' .. and... 'oh so close'. Don't throw her across the room. Oh my god, they're going to get the equaliser aren't they? They are now aren't they? WAAAAAAAA... WAAAAAAA ... who's a noisy little baby? And I do dad things to amuse her wails away. Then, a goal at Newcastle... I get a break from the pain... and I give her back... 'she's shitting herself'. And then we're back.. still 4-3... 45 seconds to go. How long is 45 seconds I ask myself. Then they disappear to the rugby. TO THE FUCKING RUGBY!! Not just a read out of a team sheet but a bloody description of what happened yesterday! I was spitting teeth, sweating and in a mild panic. Then those long last two minutes. Pain. The pain. Then the whistle. The hills are aliiiive.....

Magic

The Round Tables are back!

[Crosby Nick]

Haha brilliant Filler! I can't even listen to games on the radio anymore and you've captured why perfectly. That helplessness whenever the other side is attacking and the listening for crowd noise to give you clues a split second before the commentators fill you in.

[hollger]

Some great posts there, especially E2K's opener and the 'watching on the radio' perspective from Filler. Might as well have watched on the wireless myself for all the streams were worth - missed our first 2 and Swansea's second, was a terrible day for it.

I think that some of the confidence this team has is rubbing off on me. I was looking at the clock positively when it was 3-3 for a change. When we were 2-0 to the good I thought "oh aye, we're going to stick another hiding on someone here". With that train of thought swiftly ruined by a belter from Shelvey and a terrible fluke of a deflected equaliser though, I was reduced to hoping we wouldn't suffer "one of those days".

Once we'd restored our lead I wasn't any less nervy and sure enough, Mike fucking Jones decides he needs his place in the spotlight and Bony makes it 3-3. I can't say I'm not surprised at the penalty though - Skrtel has been walking a tightrope with his holding/grappling for weeks and we've been fortunate to escape punishment. When it was splashed across the front page on the BBC site Skrtel seemed to actually respond to the national outcry at his (and only his, naturally) 'rougher style' of defending - I can't recall seeing much of a fuss in the press lately.

I'm almost happy it happened - after all, maybe now Skrtel will stop it?! But then I realise that no, fuck that, it's not just Skrtel. Defenders are doing this every single week in every game in the land and they aren't punished. I'll be hoping Mike fucking Jones applies his tougher stance on the "issue" to each and every game he referees - but I already know that won't happen. It's just total bullshit that referees are allowed to be influenced by the reputations given to players by the media.

After I'd calmed down I was in no fit state to expect a win. Seeing that pen given, I was firmly of the mind that the best we'd be getting would be a draw, and even then we'd have to battle the ref for it. So to see us get that 4th - and what a scrappy, even lucky 4th it was - was immense. I'd have expected Vorm to catch that initial shot, or perhaps the bounce out to go to a Swansea defender but for once the ball rolled our way and Henderson jumped at the chance to smash it in. Get in!

A great result for the confidence of the team. Not so great in that we conceded 3 - I'm sure the back line will naturally feel a bit dismayed (especially Agger after his substitution) but if you analyse the goals there wasn't really much we could do. I suppose Shelvey could have been closed down quicker but still, it was a belter of a strike, give the lad his due there. The free kick for the second was on Skrtel - the tackle was fine but he did leave a bit in at the end. Gave the ref the reason he needed to award the free kick. Couldn't legislate for the ball going on off Skrtel's shoulder, that's just bad luck. The penalty was a kick in the bollocks but the ref was allowed to make the decision by the pulling/holding. Agger's making the clearing header, there's no need for Skrtel to grab Bony (who for a brick shithouse of a man, goes down incredibly easily). So our defence can't be too critical of themselves, in my view.

Flanagan had a decent game, passing was a bit off but he can't play well for every minute of every game. Johnson was good until he began to tire but that was to be expected for his first game back. A bit disappointing for Cissokho to miss out though, he'd been playing a lot better of late and the continuity would have been good for him.

Finally, I'll just say that Raheem Sterling could develop into something really special. He's already looking the business and he's just 19. Nineteen!! What a pass for that first goal, absolutely brilliant.

Onto the next one, can't wait. Although I may need some stronger tablets

[Byrnee]

Great OP, loved it!

As mentioned at the end of the article, the Spurs result took me back to all those times we didn't cut it, when it was within our grasp. All those disappointing dropped points when we were closing in on a rival. If that rival was United, and if they'd just done to Swansea what we did - ie been fairly calamitous yet still come away with 3 points - we'd have been Spurs, travelling to a supposedly easy game at Norwich, assured that we'd win this easy game to keep the pressure on. Then that inevitable Sunday evening gloom would set in as we stuffed it up.

Now I'm not trying to do a Moyes here (heaven forbid) in comparing us to one of our most hated rivals but it must be soul destroying for teams around (above and below) to see us consistently knocking fours and fives past teams. To see us give up good leads at Stoke and versus Swansea and then turn it around and leave on a high. It must be fucking mortifying to see Skrtel finally punished with the penalty that BT sport have been desperate for him to give away all season, only for us to make it matter not one jot. To know that you can score 3 at Anfield or your own patch and we'll score more. To know we can stuff teams above us 5-1 and have the game over in 20 minutes. To know that even when missing one of our most influential players for a good chunk of games through injury or suspension, we play as well if not better until they return. And it must be frustrating as hell that just when you think we've finally succumbed to a tough midweek away, Stevie G pops up with the calm assured finish to win another game.

That to me sounds like United in their glory years. Unstoppable. How long have we been the ones suffering as they just chalked up another victory whether playing well or not; through injuries, through last minutes winners and even when you think they've slipped up, they go and fucking do it again. We know what a psychological effect that has on direct rivals. You could see it in Sherwoods face in his post match interview on Sunday. In Arsene's reaction at Anfield. Now lets see it in Mourinho's gobby press conferences, as we'll know we're truly worrying him when he starts to twist the knife in about one of ours.

We can beat Southampton away and WHEN we do we'll be a minimum of third in the league (games in hand are games in hand, Manchester City can enjoy the pressure they bring) and second on GD if Arsenal lose at Stoke - which we'll know by kick off on Saturday evening. That GD might just have a massive role to play come the end of the season and that too must be playing on the minds of all those around us.

[Roger Federer]

Nothing to add expect to say that E2K's and Filler's posts are a joy to read. Brilliant writers, two of the absolute best on the site.

[Kennynyaboo]

We have 1 more point at this stage (27 games) than Rafa's 08-09 team.

But that season had a monster of a run-in, we won 8 out of 9 or something. Insane.

Make it happen, Reds!

[Grobbelrevell]

What a fantastic opening post that is.

[Niru Red4ever]

Any thoughts regarding the Agger/Toure swap?

[DeLeiva]

Any thoughts regarding the Agger/Toure swap?

Had to happen IMO.

Agger looked like he was a lad trying to play against a man every time Bony took the ball at his feet and
by the end he looked knackered.

We were all over the shop at the back and Kolo came on, not only to try to get a bit more physical
with Bony but bring some more energy into the back line.

[googhead]

We have 1 more point at this stage (27 games) than Rafa's 08-09 team.

But that season had a monster of a run-in, we won 8 out of 9 or something. Insane.

Make it happen, Reds!

nope, better 10 out of 11

[Lots of Medals]

Both Swansea City's 1st and 2nd goal, despite Shelvey's final shot being a 'worldie', were the result of poor defensive play by our dedicated defenders, central midfielders and wide forwards.

I am happy for the win, of course, but, despite their 3rd not being a penalty kick infraction in the least, we did not execute well defensively all over the pitch.

The addition of my personal favorite at LB upon his return from injury did not fill me with any great satisfaction. What little (if any) was gained by having him instead of Cissokho in attack was (more than) balanced by what we lost defensively. Unless PoP or other experts demonstrate to me otherwise, I cannot accept that what Johnson did prior to their 2nd goal was 'correct defending'.

Seen it a few times this season, Villa especially, the midfield opens up for the opposition to push forward to take control around our area. It might be SG and the CD's haven't t come to grips with his new roll, hopefully they will sort it out.

[Yorkykopite]

Beautifully done Filler.

Stopped listening to Liverpool on the radio ever since the BMG-Liverpool European Cup Semi-Final in 1978. Couldn't take it any more.

[Crosby Nick]

Beautifully done Filler.

Stopped listening to Liverpool on the radio ever since the BMG-Liverpool European Cup Semi-Final in 1978. Couldn't take it any more.

There's nothing like the excitement of hearing a late winner go in on the radio though. I can't actually remember the last time that happened for me - possibly Smicer's last minute winner against Chelsea in 01/02 that sent us top in March. I love listening back to the radio commentary of some of our cup wins though, especially with the benefit of having already seen the goals. Radio commentary is generally unbelievably good. Not for the faint hearted though which I appear to have become this season.

[Lots of Medals]

Saw an article in the paper suggesting we brought back the spirit of Keegan, initially I thought was appropriate until I realised they meant Newcastle, I was more of the view that this was the Liverpool of the early seventies when they fought with spirit (often Kevin himself) and never gave up. It is what has defined United for so long and defined us often by the lack of it. The crowd feed of it and self belief for everyone drags you over the line. You simply believe you are going to win so that if it hasn't happened the effort level goes up until you make it happen and grind your opponents down. Yesterday it was Jordan Henderson who showed that spirit and it paid off, there is so much more to football than just coaching and skill, belief and the will to win seems to be more instilled than I can remember for some years, Swansea and Fulham have shown that and we are loving it.

Like you I am not sure its on a par with LFC in the 70s. Organisation was the key back then, the commentators called us the Red machine. More like the 90's under Souness and Evo mistakes all over the park but still had enough guts to fight back in front of the Kop.

[woof]

Fantastic piece, E2K!!!!

The world may marvel about how we dismantled Arsenal or battered Spurs into submission at WHL but I thought the games at Fulham and this one against Swansea at home speak most of our new-found mentality: matching the desire to win with the ability to win. If this game was played last season, we would have lost the match after going 2-0 up.

Games like this is a testament to what a fantastic manager Rodgers is. With limited resources, he's transformed the team from good individuals to a team of match winners. Just look at Sterling and Henderson. Even Sturridge and Coutinho arrived with a big question mark and their transfers reeked of "big risk" all over it.
BTW, we are still WIP and yes, our defence is the weakest link at the moment. If our defence can match our incisive attack, the league would shudder to think what we are capable of.

Having said that, there are still 11 games to play and each one is important. The team needs to keep up this mentality of not giving up, of playing for each other and believing in Rodger's system.

[Brentieke]

Thanks for the kind words in your OP E2, coming from you it's a great compliment.

[nico 8]

That, always buying good 1v1 players for the attack, and a willingness to risk the loss for the win in a tight game.

Yes. But also, a bit tactically.

Absolutely key. When you have 4-5 players who can turn and take one player out and so change the the numbers up front, you will always be capable of scoring even when defences are tight. That is why Countinho for me is so special-always looking to play forward and running/taking people on.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Reminded me a lot of the Stoke game a few weeks ago.  Stoke and Swansea are obviously worlds apart in terms of style and reputation but it was a game where you were forced to run a gamut of emotions.  Like the Stoke game we went into a 2-0 lead and I was briefly lulled into believing that a game I initially thought would be a difficult test might just turn out to be a comfortable and resounding victory.  Once again it was nowhere near that simple.

This game was always going to be tough, Swansea's reputation precedes them and on their day they can beat anyone.  What makes them particularly dangerous at the moment is the man on the touchline, the stand-in manager and club captain for whom their players will run through a brick wall.  Had Laudrup still been in charge I think this game would have been far more comfortable for us, Garry Monk has instilled some fight and passion back into their players and they provided a stern test on Sunday.

It was a test we passed in no small part because of the character of our players.  More than once this season I've thought "we would have lost that game in recent seasons" and this was another of those games, one that needed us to be resilient, be patient and ultimately do what we needed to do.  Conceding a two goal lead might have killed us mentally in recent seasons, regaining the lead only to see it snatched away from us again barely a minute into the second half might have been a hammer blow.  But as we saw against Stoke and more recently away at Fulham, this team keeps on finding ways to win games.

The defence is obviously a huge talking point but its not something I'm overly concerned with.  Obviously I am concerned, as exciting as games like this are I don't want us to have to score four goals to win a game at home, but I really think that our defence is going to look very different next season.  Of the current group, the only ones who I think have a long-term future with us at the moment are Sakho, Ilori and Flanagan, the rest I'm not so sure about; Toure was always going to be a short-term solution, Kelly, worryingly, still looks some way away from being what he once was after his injury, Cissokho is on loan while I think Agger, Skrtel, Johnson and Enrique could all be sold if the right offer came along and we had replacements lined.  The amount and type of goals we're conceding is a concern but its an area of the squad that I think will be addressed in the summer and so we'll have to get through the rest of this season as best as we can.

I thought we missed Cissokho on Sunday (which is something I really didn't think I'd ever say a few months back).  Johnson offers a better attacking threat when he plays but I think we missed the relative solidity that Cissokho has given us at left-back in recent weeks.  Thought Toure calmed things down at the back for us when he came on as well while Flanagan had another impressive game. 

From an attacking standpoint, there isn't a lot to add that hasn't already been said many, many times about us this season.  Being the highest scorers in the league speaks volumes for the work Rodgers has done in setting us up to bring out the best in our attacking players, individually and collectively and I thought the goals we scored against Swansea were all brilliant for different reasons.

But for all of our attacking brilliance, the turning point for me in Sunday's game was the introduction of Joe Allen after an hour.  Once again I thought Rodgers got a key substitution spot on, Allen came on and turned the midfield battle in our favour.  The simplicity with which he can turn on the ball and move it on is brilliant to watch but on Sunday he also showed his ability to go forward and link-up our attack with midfield.  He's a player I rate very highly and one who I think has a big part to play in the remainder of our season.

Ultimately, after the Anfield annihilation of Everton and Arsenal I'll take a somewhat scrappy win and imperfect performance at home every now and then.  The really encouraging thing about this team is that when they're resolve and character have been tested, they've come through and found a way to win games.  Those qualities make champions. 

[PhaseOfPlay]

Like you I am not sure its on a par with LFC in the 70s. Organisation was the key back then, the commentators called us the Red machine. More like the 90's under Souness and Evo mistakes all over the park but still had enough guts to fight back in front of the Kop.

I don't recall any games where Liverpool had any fight-back in front of the Kop under Souness. For all the "hard men" he brought into the club, his teams played pretty spineless football at times. This team is a whole different kettle of fish. It's the entertainment of Evans with the "refuse to lose" attitude of the Houllier Treble side and the devastatingly clinical counter-attack of the Benitez 08-09 side, with a dash of the big game mentality of Kenny's 10-11 half-season side. It's almost like the summary of every team since Souness left, with the Hodgson pages ripped out

[Crosby Nick]

I don't recall any games where Liverpool had any fight-back in front of the Kop under Souness.

You mean to say you've forgotten all about the plucky fightback from 4-1 down to draw 4-4 with the mighty Chesterfield? Call yourself a fan...

[Chip Evans]

Okay I rarely post so forgive me. I usually prefer to voyeur on the rest of you, but I’m feeling inspired by some of the posting over the last few weeks both on here (E2K amazing OP) and Neil Atkinson’s post matchers on the Anfield Wrap (Which you should all read if you haven’t)….
 
Also this should come with spoiler tags.  If you’ve never seen the movie, Tin Cup, and plan to - avert thine eyes.

**********

In an effort to make a case for considered pragmatism, I’d like to draw a comparison with the title race Liverpool Football Club are in right now and feel-good Golf movie “Tin Cup”.
 
For those of you who don’t know it, Tin Cup is a light hearted Golf based rom-com starring Kevin Costner as “obscure driving range pro”, Roy “Tin Cup” McAvoy.  McAvoy (Liverpool FC in this story) starts the movie as a semi alcoholic, near broke, golf instructor working on a driving range in south Texas surrounded by, right hand man, caddy and pragmatist, Romeo (played here by Cheech Marin – I’d like to think I’m the Cheech Marin in this one) and a rag tag group of friends who think he’s great and hilarious (played here by you dear reader and your Liverpool supporting peers).  It turns out McAvoy is some sort of idealistic golfing poet, equally talented and flawed at the same time.
 
During the movie we see him play 18 holes under-par with only a 7-Iron having broken every other club in his bag, we see him play ridiculous shots off trees to save par, we even see him turn down a pay-day as a caddy at one point because he wanted to get one up on the guy he was caddying for – Don Johnson, the par getting machine, here playing Chelsea and Jose Mourinho.  The fact is McAvoy is as entertaining as it gets. Interestingly at one point in the movie Don Johnson beats McAvoy in a bet by merely being more experienced and boxing slightly cleverer than him. 

When Rene Russo (Representing some nebulous form of glory) walks into his life for a golf-lesson, McAvoy throws caution to the wind and decides he must have her.  Somehow after at least 45 minutes of romantic hijinks and difficult to maintain metaphors, McAvoy decides that the only way to win Rene Russo’s heart is to win the US Open (here playing the Premier League Trophy).

McAvoy through his own brand of mad-cap, super talented golfing abilities, papers over the cracks in his psyche and finds himself in contention on the final day of the Open. (In a twist that completely nullifies this comparison, he has also actually won the heart of Rene Russo by this stage - by being himself - but stay with me!)
 
In the climactic scene of the movie on the par-5 18th at Augusta, McAvoy finds himself with an interesting dilemma.  He has played a tee-shot that leaves him with 2 choices:

1 - He can drive for the green, over a water hazard, and have the chance of getting down in 3 guaranteeing the championship. 

2 – He can lay up, chip for the green and definitely get down in 4, maybe giving him the championship but maybe not if other people’s scores don’t go his way.
 
There is a small caveat here that earlier in the championship, McAvoy was left with the same decision and went for the option 1.  He drove into the water.
A conversation takes place here between Cheech and McAvoy, where Romeo implores McAvoy to lay up.  Egged on by Rene Russo, McAvoy decides to drive.  He drives into the water.  McAvoy loses it. Instead of just laying up, he takes his drop where he took the original shot from and tries to drive the green again. And again. And again. And again. Until he runs out of balls and eventually makes a miracle shot with his last ball Hollywood style but by now he has dropped so far down the leaderboard the championship has gone.

“Don’t worry”, Rene Russo commiserates, “In years to come nobody will remember who won, just that shot”.  Sorry Rene Russo, you're wrong.

To bring this back to reality and something PoP alluded to earlier. I’d really appreciate if only for the next 3 away games we were a bit more pragmatic and in control.  Personally - if only for my, still palpitating since Sunday, heart - I think Joe Allen should come into the midfield and along with Gerard and Henderson for those games.  I’d love 3 clean sheets and a measure of control in those games. 3 clean sheets would be 3 wins 65 points and then we can just go for it.  I know that for those 3 games this will mean having to make a tough call about Coutinho and Sterling most likely - but having an option of either off the bench isn’t the worst thing in the world either.
 
We’d all take 11 4:3 scorelines in our favour between now and May but would you all take 1 and 2 nils and being slightly less open? I would …. I really, really would. It’s a cliché but I don’t think we can survive 11 games and having to keep going to the well like this. 

This is not to disrespect the character shown on Sunday or the quality of our play over the last 6 months - I haven’t enjoyed or been this emotionally involved in football games in 5 years - but I’d give my left nut for this to all mean something at the end.  And I wouldn’t swap that.
 
But to paraphrase Cheech Marin in Tin Cup.

“Sometimes it’s okay to lay-up and take your chances”

I’d like to win the championship AND Rene Russo. 11 games to go, it’s feeling very real now.  Plus this is so much fun again. Thanks.         

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Okay I rarely post so forgive me. I usually prefer to voyeur on the rest of you, but I’m feeling inspired by some of the posting over the last few weeks both on here (E2K amazing OP) and Neil Atkinson’s post matchers on the Anfield Wrap (Which you should all read if you haven’t)….
 
Also this should come with spoiler tags.  If you’ve never seen the movie, Tin Cup, and plan to - avert thine eyes.

**********

In an effort to make a case for considered pragmatism, I’d like to draw a comparison with the title race Liverpool Football Club are in right now and feel-good Golf movie “Tin Cup”.
 
For those of you who don’t know it, Tin Cup is a light hearted Golf based rom-com starring Kevin Costner as “obscure driving range pro”, Roy “Tin Cup” McAvoy.  McAvoy (Liverpool FC in this story) starts the movie as a semi alcoholic, near broke, golf instructor working on a driving range in south Texas surrounded by, right hand man, caddy and pragmatist, Romeo (played here by Cheech Marin – I’d like to think I’m the Cheech Marin in this one) and a rag tag group of friends who think he’s great and hilarious (played here by you dear reader and your Liverpool supporting peers).  It turns out McAvoy is some sort of idealistic golfing poet, equally talented and flawed at the same time.
 
During the movie we see him play 18 holes under-par with only a 7-Iron having broken every other club in his bag, we see him play ridiculous shots off trees to save par, we even see him turn down a pay-day as a caddy at one point because he wanted to get one up on the guy he was caddying for – Don Johnson, the par getting machine, here playing Chelsea and Jose Mourinho.  The fact is McAvoy is as entertaining as it gets. Interestingly at one point in the movie Don Johnson beats McAvoy in a bet by merely being more experienced and boxing slightly cleverer than him. 

When Rene Russo (Representing some nebulous form of glory) walks into his life for a golf-lesson, McAvoy throws caution to the wind and decides he must have her.  Somehow after at least 45 minutes of romantic hijinks and difficult to maintain metaphors, McAvoy that the only way to win Rene Russo’s heart is to win the US Open (here playing the Premier League Trophy).

McAvoy through his own brand of mad-cap, super talented golfing abilities, papers over the cracks in his psyche and finds himself in contention on the final day of the Open. (In a twist that completely nullifies this comparison, he has also actually won the heart of Rene Russo by this stage - by being himself - but stay with me!)
 
In the climactic scene of the movie on the par-5 18th at Augusta, McAvoy finds himself with an interesting dilemma.  He has played a tee-shot that leaves him with 2 choices:

1 - He can drive for the green, over a water hazard, and have the chance of getting down in 3 guaranteeing the championship. 

2 – He can lay up, chip for the green and definitely get down in 4, maybe giving him the championship but maybe not if other people’s scores don’t go his way.
 
There is a small caveat here that earlier in the championship, McAvoy was left with the same decision and went for the option 1.  He drove into the water.
A conversation takes place here between Cheech and McAvoy, where Romeo implores McAvoy to lay up.  Egged on by Rene Russo, McAvoy decide to drive.  He drives into the water.  McAvoy loses it. Instead of just laying up, he takes his drop where he took the original shot from and tries to drive the green again. And again. And again. And again. Until he runs out of balls and eventually makes a miracle shot with his last ball Hollywood style but by now he has dropped so far down the leaderboard the championship has gone.

“Don’t worry”, Rene Russo commiserates, “In years to come nobody will remember who won, just that shot”.  Sorry Rene Russo, you're wrong.

To bring this back to reality and something PoP alluded to earlier. I’d really appreciate if only for the next 3 away games we were a bit more pragmatic and in control.  Personally - if only for my, still palpitating since Sunday, heart - I think Joe Allen should come into the midfield and along with Gerard and Henderson for those games.  I’d love 3 clean sheets and a measure of control in those games. 3 clean sheets would be 3 wins 65 points and then we can just go for it.  I know that for those 3 games this will mean having to make a tough call about Coutinho and Sterling most likely - but having an option of either off the bench isn’t the worst thing in the world either.
 
We’d all take 11 4:3 scorelines in our favour between now and May but would you all take 1 and 2 nils and being slightly less open? I would …. I really, really would. It’s a cliché but I don’t think we can survive 11 games and having to keep going to the well like this. 

This is not to disrespect the character shown on Sunday or the quality of our play over the last 6 months - I haven’t enjoyed or been this emotionally involved in football games in 5 years - but I’d give my left nut for this to all mean something at the end.  And I wouldn’t swap that.
 
But to paraphrase Cheech Marin in Tin Cup.

“Sometimes it’s okay to lay-up and take your chances”

I’d like to win the championship AND Rene Russo. 11 games to go, it’s feeling very real now.  Plus this is so much fun again. Thanks.         

Might be one of the best things I have read in some time! From Solome, Texas to Liverpool, UK, love the writing and precision of thought.
This brilliant Tin Cup post inspired me to offer another movie gem as a metaphor for the season called Swingers (Vince Vaughn). 

Liverpool FC does not know how "money it is".  We are "batting the bunny" around with big f***ing claws. 

[goalrushatgoodison]

I don't recall any games where Liverpool had any fight-back in front of the Kop under Souness. For all the "hard men" he brought into the club, his teams played pretty spineless football at times. This team is a whole different kettle of fish. It's the entertainment of Evans with the "refuse to lose" attitude of the Houllier Treble side and the devastatingly clinical counter-attack of the Benitez 08-09 side, with a dash of the big game mentality of Kenny's 10-11 half-season side. It's almost like the summary of every team since Souness left, with the Hodgson pages ripped out

I think the mancs 3-3 game would qualify as a fight-back in front of the Kop under Souness POP.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think the mancs 3-3 game would qualify as a fight-back in front of the Kop under Souness POP.

True that. I always think of that being at Old Trafford for some reason. But still, it was one rare shining light among a conveyor belt of depressing dross under Souness I think my memory is tainted a lot by the sight of Les Ferdinand and QPR and their ilk always getting one over us when Souness was in charge.

[Mr_Shane]

Souness team only managed to fight back in some games, other games they just didn't have it in them to come back. Rafa's team had mental character up until his last year, but when it came to getting a goal, occasionally they could be found lacking. Rodgers team has mental character AND has goals. the number of times we have fought back to get goals to rescue points and wins this season alone, are probably comparable to the number of times we  managed to do so for the past two to three years.

He could potentially shut up shop if he wants too, if not for injuries, his adventorous streak and his desire to get goals resulting in an unprotected defence. We were very open against Swansea, but once Allen and Toure came on, Swansea were much less threatening.

Look at it this way, if you know your team always has goals in you, there are two ways you can win... make sure you score more, and make sure the other team scores less.

If however, your team does not have the ability to get goals, your best chance of a win is to make sure the other team scores less.

[goalrushatgoodison]

True that. I always think of that being at Old Trafford for some reason. But still, it was one rare shining light among a conveyor belt of depressing dross under Souness I think my memory is tainted a lot by the sight of Les Ferdinand and QPR and their ilk always getting one over us when Souness was in charge.

It's strange, as well as wrong, considering we won the fa cup under Souness that the comeback is my favourite memory of his doomed time in charge. A match we didn't win like.

And no your memory is not tainted - it was every bit as bad as you remember.

[DanA]

Carrying on from the tin cup reference are we taking excessive risks or are we just shit at the back? Though we play an aggressive midfield that occasionally gets exposed I'm inclined to think we're just shit at the back.

[poseidon]

Great OP and analysis by everyone.

My question is, DO WE BELIEVE?

I've nothing to add regarding the players' performances that hasn't been said already. However I think for our next 11 games, IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL for the Anfield faithful to completely raise the roof and make our remaining games (especially our remaining 5 home games) a cauldron of noise singing and encouragement for our players. I'm thinking our Champions League European nights level of noise - nonstop rocking from start to finish. eg Roma when Houllier came back, Chelsea CL 2005 and 2007, Olympiakos, Real Madrid 4-0.

I'm pretty confident that we will win number 19 if our support is there. We CAN win 10 out of 11 games if so. We CAN get 86 points to wrap up the league.

Onward Redmen!!!!!

As you can probably tell, I'm too excited to post dispassionately regarding team tactics, performances, set up, strengths and weaknessses etc.

[Alf]

Descriptions of us being the new Keegan's Liverpool were inevitable after Sundays score line and our style of football this season has certainly won over a few of the neutrals. I was never concerned we would lose the game on Sunday and I'm always confident we'll score goals. It will be interesting when Chelsea & City come to Anfield whether we can blow them out of the water, like we did against Arsenal and also at Spurs or whether they'll bide their time and pick us off like Man Utd did at Newcastle two decades back.

[mikenielsen]

Okay I rarely post so forgive me. I usually prefer to voyeur on the rest of you, but I’m feeling inspired by some of the posting over the last few weeks both on here (E2K amazing OP) and Neil Atkinson’s post matchers on the Anfield Wrap (Which you should all read if you haven’t)….
 
Also this should come with spoiler tags.  If you’ve never seen the movie, Tin Cup, and plan to - avert thine eyes.

**********

In an effort to make a case for considered pragmatism, I’d like to draw a comparison with the title race Liverpool Football Club are in right now and feel-good Golf movie “Tin Cup”.
 
For those of you who don’t know it, Tin Cup is a light hearted Golf based rom-com starring Kevin Costner as “obscure driving range pro”, Roy “Tin Cup” McAvoy.  McAvoy (Liverpool FC in this story) starts the movie as a semi alcoholic, near broke, golf instructor working on a driving range in south Texas surrounded by, right hand man, caddy and pragmatist, Romeo (played here by Cheech Marin – I’d like to think I’m the Cheech Marin in this one) and a rag tag group of friends who think he’s great and hilarious (played here by you dear reader and your Liverpool supporting peers).  It turns out McAvoy is some sort of idealistic golfing poet, equally talented and flawed at the same time.
 
During the movie we see him play 18 holes under-par with only a 7-Iron having broken every other club in his bag, we see him play ridiculous shots off trees to save par, we even see him turn down a pay-day as a caddy at one point because he wanted to get one up on the guy he was caddying for – Don Johnson, the par getting machine, here playing Chelsea and Jose Mourinho.  The fact is McAvoy is as entertaining as it gets. Interestingly at one point in the movie Don Johnson beats McAvoy in a bet by merely being more experienced and boxing slightly cleverer than him. 

When Rene Russo (Representing some nebulous form of glory) walks into his life for a golf-lesson, McAvoy throws caution to the wind and decides he must have her.  Somehow after at least 45 minutes of romantic hijinks and difficult to maintain metaphors, McAvoy decides that the only way to win Rene Russo’s heart is to win the US Open (here playing the Premier League Trophy).

McAvoy through his own brand of mad-cap, super talented golfing abilities, papers over the cracks in his psyche and finds himself in contention on the final day of the Open. (In a twist that completely nullifies this comparison, he has also actually won the heart of Rene Russo by this stage - by being himself - but stay with me!)
 
In the climactic scene of the movie on the par-5 18th at Augusta, McAvoy finds himself with an interesting dilemma.  He has played a tee-shot that leaves him with 2 choices:

1 - He can drive for the green, over a water hazard, and have the chance of getting down in 3 guaranteeing the championship. 

2 – He can lay up, chip for the green and definitely get down in 4, maybe giving him the championship but maybe not if other people’s scores don’t go his way.
 
There is a small caveat here that earlier in the championship, McAvoy was left with the same decision and went for the option 1.  He drove into the water.
A conversation takes place here between Cheech and McAvoy, where Romeo implores McAvoy to lay up.  Egged on by Rene Russo, McAvoy decides to drive.  He drives into the water.  McAvoy loses it. Instead of just laying up, he takes his drop where he took the original shot from and tries to drive the green again. And again. And again. And again. Until he runs out of balls and eventually makes a miracle shot with his last ball Hollywood style but by now he has dropped so far down the leaderboard the championship has gone.

“Don’t worry”, Rene Russo commiserates, “In years to come nobody will remember who won, just that shot”.  Sorry Rene Russo, you're wrong.

To bring this back to reality and something PoP alluded to earlier. I’d really appreciate if only for the next 3 away games we were a bit more pragmatic and in control.  Personally - if only for my, still palpitating since Sunday, heart - I think Joe Allen should come into the midfield and along with Gerard and Henderson for those games.  I’d love 3 clean sheets and a measure of control in those games. 3 clean sheets would be 3 wins 65 points and then we can just go for it.  I know that for those 3 games this will mean having to make a tough call about Coutinho and Sterling most likely - but having an option of either off the bench isn’t the worst thing in the world either.
 
We’d all take 11 4:3 scorelines in our favour between now and May but would you all take 1 and 2 nils and being slightly less open? I would …. I really, really would. It’s a cliché but I don’t think we can survive 11 games and having to keep going to the well like this. 

This is not to disrespect the character shown on Sunday or the quality of our play over the last 6 months - I haven’t enjoyed or been this emotionally involved in football games in 5 years - but I’d give my left nut for this to all mean something at the end.  And I wouldn’t swap that.
 
But to paraphrase Cheech Marin in Tin Cup.

“Sometimes it’s okay to lay-up and take your chances”

I’d like to win the championship AND Rene Russo. 11 games to go, it’s feeling very real now.  Plus this is so much fun again. Thanks.         

For some reason that's one of my favourite movies of all times. It's not a master piece of any means. It's just a funny little feel good movie.

Your right about the similarities. You're also right that it would be nice to get some safe low score wins (in LFC terms this season that would mean less than 3 goals per game ), however, I'm not sure that will happen. I don't think the centre backs are as much to blame as they're made out to be (elsewhere, not in this thread).

We play some high scoring football. Usually this means you're not as solid in defence. It's only natural when you're committing more resources going forward, you'll have less resources at the back. However, there's still a reason to feel we shouldn't concede as many as we do.

I don't have the stats to back it up, but there's a story going on that we're conceding mainly due to personal errors and set pieces because our centre backs are shit. Is that the full story? I really don't think it is.

Yes. Some of our marking at set pieces is horrendous.

Yes. Some of the mistakes we see experienced pros make are dreadful.

Why does this happen? Are they shit?

Do we expect 2 or sometimes 3 players to keep clean sheets on their own? Is that fair?

Brendan said the mistakes weren't something you could coach (or something to that effect). Is that really true?

I'm a big fan of Agger. I'm a Dane and besides Eriksen...and yes...Bendtner he is by far the shining light of the Danish side. His set piece marking has always been a bit of an issue. Is it just me or is that not something you can practice? The way I see it, it ought to be one of the easiest things to practice. If there's a conscious decision not to practice that area of the game aren't we then accepting we will concede from set pieces.

Now, Daniel is far from the only one who's made mistakes at set pieces. I was just using the criticism levelled at him as an example. However, while we're talking about him (well, while I'm talking about him) there's the thing about physicality. Brendan openly said he pulled Agger from the game because he was afraid he couldn't handle Bony. Isn't there more than one way to skin a goat? By the same logic we'd absolutely need a powerhouse forward (Andy Carroll anyone?) to compete with opposition defenders. We seem to manage just fine without Andy.

In general, especially in the Central Defence thread, there seems to be a vocal minority insisting we need to sell pretty much every centre back who's available to us at any given point in time.

Which brings me back to my initial point, and the match. Could we be asking too much of our centre backs? Could our defence improve with better support from midfield, the fullbacks, and even the keeper? Could this be done without sacrificing our unquestionable attacking quality?

Maybe we see more personal errors from our centre backs because they are put in a position to make those errors more often than they need to be.

[steveeastend]

Reminded me a lot of the Stoke game a few weeks ago... 

And Villa, and Hull, Newcastle away, Southampton home....

It was a little bit falling back into old habits... Gerrard not staying behind the ball, Henderson strolling back and watching Swansea attacking, Sturridge and Suarez not defending and closing down spaces, helping our full backs at all, Coutinho missing this 10% sharpness in order to dominate the middle, Johnson miles away from what you would expect from a full back in terms of positioning, Flanagan nervous, Skrtel too, Agger trying to find his form, Mignolet not coming out of the comfort zone.... Overall it was only Sterling, the youngest, having the game to be expected, who put in the necessary shift and forced himself into the game in attack and defending. One of those days..

Still we won the game and I honestly never had the impression we would be in danger to lose. Yes, we are THAT good as a team at the moment. Our overall tactical foundation, passing patterns, flexibility in moving up and backwards as a team, the awareness of the players to do the right thing because they know about the movement of the other players, the overall confidence and especially quality in our play in the final third in terms of passing and finishing is THAT good that the players got away with less than 100%. I was especially happy for Hendersons first goal, exactly what I was hoping for, hit the ball under the bar and think about the rest later, great stuff and a sign of sheer confidence coming from endless training sessions, he obviously had a plan this time.

Gerrard said in almost every interview when asked about the title that it would be too early and he would wait where we are with ten games to go. Well, here we are, with 4 points of the top and people still dismissing any title talk are fooling themselves at the moment. We CAN win the title, it's probably the biggest chance for ages and all the players have to do is put in 110% in every game as I honestly cannot imagine what should be going wrong then. We are the best team around at the moment, I saw City and Chelsea in a lot of games this season and they honestly didn't look stronger, actually weaker and needed more luck in order to score.

So I hope Gerrard will stay back in those last 11 games, do the job he did vs Everton and let the difference in attack count. And I hope Rodgers will go on with being ruthless and bring back Cissokho for the last couple of games as I think we look far more save with him instead of Johnson who probably has a write off season in this one. And then I think it doesn't really matter anyway who will be playing as it will be all about a mental thing and not a quality one anymore. So I only hope that the players are aware of this big chance they have at hand, they can make it happen. Yes they can.