Poll

Vote for the best team (best representation of the manager in terms of philosophy, style & tactics)

vivabobbygraham (Bill Shankly)
5 (35.7%)
El Lobo (Johan Cruyff)
2 (14.3%)
NICHOLLS1986 (Jurgen Klopp)
7 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: December 8, 2022, 05:28:38 pm

Author Topic: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B  (Read 638 times)

Offline NICHOLLS

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Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« on: December 6, 2022, 05:26:10 pm »
Please rank the teams in order of who you think are the best.

Remember, we are voting which teams are the best in terms of being the best constructed team in line with the chosen manager's philosophy, player styles and tactics. NOT 'the team with the greatest 11 players'. Well-chosen players and tactics that execute the manager's philosophy the best should be valued more than a team full of big names that don't.

For example:

1st: Manager A
2nd: Manager B
3rd: Manager C
Group B

vivabobbygraham (Bill Shankly)


Manager profile, player styles and team tactics
Clemence>Jennings You can't better Clemence in my view. Englands greatest, maybe Banks runs him close. So, Pat was similar for the Irish. Similar in stature, agility, shot saver, hairstyle, everything except the conk

Carlos Alberto> Chris Lawler. Marauding full backs with an eye for goal. Chrissie was so underrated. Carlos is an upgrade of course but I saw Lawler score a similar goal in the derby as the world cup wonder goal in 70 from Carlos. Lawler would have done that for Brasil.

Ron Yeats>Jack Charlton. Bill moved away from the big stopper after Larry Lloyd left but Rowdy was his pride and joy. 'Come and have a walk round him' said the great man when Ron was introduced to the press on signing from Scotland somewhere. Big Jack was similar if a bit more gangly. Hard as nails the pair of them.

Alessandro Nesta> The mighty Emlyn. Brothers from another mother.  Double European cup winners, tenacious, skilful, great footballers, brilliant defenders but brought the ball out of defence to start attacks

Gerry Byrne>Andy Robertson. Dogged, determined full backs asked or gave no quarter. Gerry Byrne played 87 minutes of the FA Cup final in 65 with a broken collarbone. Robbo would have done that...and a broken leg. No subs. Fellow Scot to the great man. I rest my case

Thiago Alcantara>Peter Cormack. 'Twinkle toes' Peter Cormack was the 'final piece in the jigsaw' when Shanks signed him in 72. 2 league titles, the fa cup and uefa followed. A playmaker, he made that early 70's side tick. Skinny, diminutive but loved a tackle, Shanks loved Peter, another fellow Scot. How he would have adored Thiago

Tommy Smith>Claude Makelele. Early to late 60's Tommy played in midfield, Shanks put him in when he was 18 and he never came out, paying in a variety of positions. He was a destroyer, fearsome, but his skills as a footballer were vastly underrated. Shanks said 'Tommy wasn't born, he was quarried.' Claude is my favourite 6. He would have marshalled a Shankly team from there. Bill liked the double  pivot. Used it a lot. Stevenson/Strong a prime example of his 60's side. Smith/Stevenson another pair. He would have his two wide midfielders as wingers. 442 became 424. He took that from Ajax. Paisley carried on this tradition. Thiago and Claude would have been perfect

Salah>Cally/Brian Hall. Some might think this is a stretch. But Mo's best years for us is wide right, exactly where Cally played. Cally/Hall was more industrious, would drop into midfield and play right mid but still wide. Mo' can do that in his sleep. Shanks demanded a lot from his wide players, they'd cheat and play both roles. Mo's football nous would have been perfect for Bill in a 424 with the added bonus of goals. How else can you compare the longest serving player in the clubs history with arguably, by the time he's finished, our greatest ever player.? I just did!

Cruyff>Thompson/Heighway Yes, wide left for Johan in this Shankly team in similar mode to Thommo and Stevie. Cruyff loved Shankly, his football philosophy, his personality, his Liverpool. He'd have loved to have played for Liverpool in front of the kop. He said so, it was on the wall of Melwood "There’s not one club in the world so united with the fans. I sat there watching the Liverpool fans and they sent shivers down my spine. A mass of 40,000 became one force behind their team"

Keegan/Toshack>Suarez/Lewandowski. Nuff said

I finish with these quotes that fit aptly with the Shankly philosophy and were at the forefront of my thinking when drafting this team...

“My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Had Napoleon had that idea he would have conquered the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in.”

“A football team is like a piano. You need eight men to carry it and three who can play the damn thing.”

“Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.”

“For a player to be good enough to play for Liverpool, he must be prepared to run through a brick wall for me then come out fighting
the other side.”

“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It’s the way I see football, the way I see life.”
[close]

El Lobo (Johan Cruyff)


Manager profile, player styles and team tactics
I've gone with the total football '343' formation. The players I've 'replaced' are those that I'd consider as the best he coached rather than a single team he coached. With that in mind, there's a lot of arrows. No touchline hugging wingers, but versatile players all over the pitch.

Rinat Dasayev 84-88 - Zubizaretta. Top class, solid goalkeeper. Not particularly amazing with his feet or distribution, but didn't need to be.

Frank De Boer 92-96 - Sergi. Centre back/full backs on both sides. Top class CB but also adept going forward, providing width, dropping into LB

Bobby Moore 64-68 - Ronald Koeman. Sweeper/CB. I did want someone who was more prolific, but the goalscoring I think is secondary and would be made up for elsewhere. But as a defender there aren't many (any?) better, sweeping up but also bringing the ball out of defence and into midfield
 
Giuseppe Bergomi 87-91 - Albert Ferrer. Same as the left side. Top class either CB or RB, going forward and defending.

Roberto Falcao 80-84 - Pep Guardiola. Similar as a deep lying playmaker. I dont think he ever dropped into defence but I think he'd be adept at it, particularly with the two beasts in front of him and the one behind.

Michael Ballack 01-05 - Frank Rijkaard. I've gone for the late Leverkusen/early Bayern vintage Ballack here. Box-to-box, good goalscoring record as Rijkaard was in his short time under Cruyff. Again, versatile. Able to play deep or attacking, drift wide etc.

Marcel Desailly 94-98 - Miguel Angel Nadal. The early Desailly to replace the beast Nadal. Marauding defensive midfielder, hard tackling, good distribution and another able to drop into multiple positions.

Diego Maradona 84-88 - Michael Laudrup. I thought the only upgrade on Laudrup in that role would be the GOAT.

Diogo Jota 18-22 - Hristo Stoichkov. I've gone Jota after watching a few videos of Stoichkov at Barca, maybe a little surprisingly. Their movement and finishing technique is really similar, little backlift, clinical, in the corners. He's not a right winger but neither is that position.

David Villa 09-13 - Gheorghe Hagi. I've gone for the Barca Villa, where he played predominantly off the left, rather than the arguably better Valencia Villa where he was more out and out striker. Again with the theme, very versatile, dropping into different positions, interchanging with the other attackers.

Kenny Dalglish 77-81 - Romario. I've gone early LFC Kenny to replace Romario, as he was more of an out and out striker rather than later on feeding Rush. But adept at dropping deep and again versatile. Good timing as Ian Wright was on the telly t'other day talking about how Kenny could have played at RB and still been amazing, the perfect striker for total football
[close]

NICHOLLS1986 (Jurgen Klopp)


Manager profile, player styles and team tactics
(Players of inspiration: Alisson, Weidenfeller)
Ederson (18-22) – a world-class example of the modern 'sweeper keeper': extraordinary playmaking and passing ability, great timing off the line, excellent one-on-one and able to make accurate long throws. Ederson is also commanding, very strong with a solid frame, while still possessing amazing reflexes, agility and shot-stopping abilities. All-time legends like Yashin, Zoff and Banks wouldn’t have fit either the player technical profile or the tactical style required for my keeper position. Ederson will be an important weapon in getting the ball to Stoichkov and Eto’o with pace and accuracy.

(Players of inspiration: Robertson, Piszczek, Schmelzer, Milner)
Javier Zanetti (98-02) – Zanetti represents endless energy and stamina down the flank (as both fullback and winger). A solid and tenacious defender, able to cover his centrebacks and midfielders. Consistency and workrate must be very high. A fullback possessing excellent passing and crossing skills is also required (overlapping Eto’o and crossing horizontally to Stoichkov). Zanetti is both a formidable man-marker at one end, and a creative/attacking force in the opponent's half. The Inter Milan legend is physically strong, quick and agile, also possessing the leadership intangibles to raise his team’s energy and morale.

(Players of inspiration: Matip, Subotić, van Dijk, Gomez)
Elías Figueroa (72-76) - the complete centreback. Figueroa is a talented ball playing centrehalf, able to build from the back, initiate attacks from deep with long vertical balls and make marauding runs. Dominant in the air and an expert man marker (world class positional sense and reading of the game). Regarded as the greatest South American defender of all time, the Chilean is strong and pacey, able to deal with a #9 target man in the box or quick forwards on the high line. A natural leader and organiser.

(Players of inspiration: van Dijk, Hummels)
Gaetano Scirea (78-82) – the graceful complete centreback partner. Not the typical Catenaccio tenacious stopper, but a ball-playing centerback whose game is based on clean interceptions, positioning and reading of the game. Scirea has a strong athletic build, comfortable and elegant on the ball. ‘El Capitano’ is a leader of men and highly respected my players, managers and critics.

(Players of inspiration: Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tsimikas, Robertson)
Andreas Brehme (86-90) - A special fullback needed here: elite passing and crossing skills are required (accuracy, swerve, power and technique). A modern fullback able to play the full flank (fullback/wingback/winger) or tuck in centrally. Brehme was also a solid defender, demonstrating an intelligent positional sense. The German’s vertical/horizontal passes will be used to spring quick attacks/switch play/stretch our opponent. Brehme was without doubt a clutch player (assists/goals in the biggest games). A multi-faceted team player. A set-piece specialist (corners and free kicks) is the cherry on top.

(Players of inspiration: Fabinho, Henderson, Bender, Kehl)
Frank Rijkaard (88-92) – the crucial defensive midfielder for our spine. Rijkaard can sit between my two centrebacks as a third centreback. The Dutch legend offers supreme protection, breaking down play, anchoring and covering. Rijkaard boasts the vision and passing technique to launch attacks from deep, while also possessing the box-to-box quality when needed.

(Players of inspiration: Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum)
Bryan Robson (84-88) – ‘Captain Marvel’ is my box-to-box dynamo. Robson offers the much needed high defensive workrate and match engine. A dual goal scoring threat and destroyer: Robson will screen the back four and cover advancing defenders, distribute the ball with accuracy and zip and get into the opponent’s box to score. Robson also possesses great leadership intangibles.

(Players of inspiration: Wijnaldum, Gündoğan, Lallana, Keïta)
Mario Coluna (62-66) – ‘The Sacred Monster’ was known to be a creator, enforcer and all-round inspiration in midfield. The Portuguese box-to-box force of nature transformed from a forward into a midfielder now operating deeper: Coluna now had the whole pitch infront of him, where he could demonstrate his complete game: vision, passing range, slalom dribbles, stamina, long range shooting, intelligent movement, drives into the box, strong tackling and leadership. An important player to link up play between defence and our attack.

(Players of inspiration: Mané, Jota, Błaszczykowski)   
Samuel Eto’o (07-11) – Eto’o was the perfect lethal forward: insane natural pace, a prolific finisher and creator, tactical versatility to play centrally or on the wing and possessing impressive dribbling and shooting technique. Physically strong and tenacious, Eto’o had a high defensive workrate (even able to play as a defensive wingforward). Historically a big game player, Eto’o had a high football IQ, able to play in both possession, counter attack and pressing systems.

(Players of inspiration: Firmino, Götze, Lewandowski, Mané)
Florian Albert (63-67) – ‘The Emperor’ wasn't your typical centre forward. He would drop deep (sometimes even play as deep as central midfielder) playing as a withdrawn forward. Always moving for his teammates, possessing a high work rate and able to tactically press. Albert was an elegant footballer, possessing amazing dribbling skills, technique and ball control. Still a prolific goalscorer, for his club career he scored an astonishing 595 goals in 643 games, and for his country 32 goals in 75 games. Albert loved to combine with his midfielders and attackers, demonstrating his excellent vision, creativity and tactical intelligence. He will be able to thread accurate passes to Stoichkov and Eto'o. A deadly finisher, but also strong on the ball, able to slalom past defenders.

(Players of inspiration: Salah, Mané, Reus)
Hristo Stoichkov (90-94) – the ideal wingforward for my attack. The Bulgarian can press from the front, offering great workrate off the ball. ‘The Dagger’ possesses the deadly pace and power to be lethal on the counter, cutting in from the wing, getting in behind or driving forward centrally. The importance of being versatile across the front three forward positions and being both a goalscorer and creator maximises his influence.

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Offline Lawnmowerman

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #1 on: December 6, 2022, 09:17:09 pm »
bobby

Offline Samie

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #2 on: December 7, 2022, 12:05:22 am »
Lobo's team's decent but I don't like arrows going everywhere and nowhere.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #3 on: December 7, 2022, 07:44:08 am »
Lobo's team's decent but I don't like arrows going everywhere and nowhere.

You just don’t understand total football, I get that
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline red1977

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #4 on: December 7, 2022, 02:24:43 pm »
I voted for Lobo. Maradona and Dalglish in the same side was all i needed to see.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #5 on: December 7, 2022, 02:29:27 pm »
I can't even work out if me and Bobby should be annoyed or not

Great draft...very hard though! Nicholls has done a very good job of explaining his picks, I think mine was more 'this is the best sort of similar player I can get'.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Betty Blue

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #6 on: December 7, 2022, 03:17:22 pm »
I can't even work out if me and Bobby should be annoyed or not

Great draft...very hard though! Nicholls has done a very good job of explaining his picks, I think mine was more 'this is the best sort of similar player I can get'.

Looking at your team it seems like you've maybe focused on more of a mix of Cruyff teams which makes it look quite confusing, while putting a few players out of position compared to how Cruyff set them up in his sides. e.g. Riijkard was a CB for Cuyff's Ajax (albeit more in a free roaming DM style role, but not in a forward thinking Ballack type role), Sergi was an attacking fullback at Barca not an LCB, Nadal is also best remembered as a CB (even if he did play as a DM at times), and Stoichkov played his best football at Barca as an SS. For me the key to capturing that Barca dream team was the 1993-94 La Liga winning holy trinity of Laudrup-Stoichkov-Romario, which I thought you had with the Kenny-Maradona picks but stumbled IMO when you had Kenny in for Romario and not Stoickov. Romario would've been better off swapped for more of a dynamic goal poacher (a technically gifted one) like Hugo Sanchez for example. Just my two cents and why ultimately Nicholls won my vote.
« Last Edit: December 7, 2022, 03:19:04 pm by Betty Blue »
"Don’t let your heads drop. We’re Liverpool. You’re playing for Liverpool. Don’t forget that. You have to hold your heads high for the supporters. You have to do it for them." - Rafa Benitez, halftime, Istanbul, 2005.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #7 on: December 7, 2022, 10:02:47 pm »
I can't be arsed with all this. The Klopp team makes no sense. E'to right of a 3? Barca dream team, blah, blah, blah. So confusing as BB redraws the rules of engagement with his 'two cents.' Most top managers had sides that spanned two, three, evolutions. Where does it say that you had to concentrate on one? Where's the fun in that? It would probably have been more prudent then to dedicate the years you wanted the managers team to be based on rather than the payers. I believed it was about the philosophy of the manager, their tactics and then to use that as the basis to draft? There are key players that do need to be made like for like in order to fulfil that philosphy and tactics. I used the Ray Kennedy example yesterday, not to criticise but to point out how that player was integral to the whole Paisley philosophy of a wide left footed midfielder, with an eye for goal, who gave the team balance, something Bob and Shanks before him, swore by. Left footers on the left, right footers on the right. I mentioned the two phases of the kings career, one as a finisher and one as a provider. The drafter had the choice but not according to Betty boop for the manager.

Regarding Shanks team. As I stated in my analysis, Shanks stopped playing with a big, aggressive centre half after Larry Lloyd but Rowdy was his template. He then went Thommo, he played Emlyn, he played Smithy. So, do I have to pick one style or the other or rather pick one old and one new like I did with Jack Charlton and Nesta, for Ron Yeats and crazy horse. Same tactics, same philosophy just nuanced, adapted. I'm pretty sure this was Lobo's idea, his team depicts this.

I had high hopes for this draft. I should have fucking known better.
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And treat those two imposters just the same

Offline Samie

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #8 on: December 7, 2022, 10:06:49 pm »
Can't trust the French old man.  :D

Offline Betty Blue

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #9 on: December 7, 2022, 10:32:53 pm »

Sorry for having an opinion, mate. Next time I'll run it past you first.
"Don’t let your heads drop. We’re Liverpool. You’re playing for Liverpool. Don’t forget that. You have to hold your heads high for the supporters. You have to do it for them." - Rafa Benitez, halftime, Istanbul, 2005.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #10 on: December 7, 2022, 10:58:32 pm »
Sorry for having an opinion, mate. Next time I'll run it past you first.

Must have missed your opinion of my team?
...If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same

Offline Betty Blue

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #11 on: December 7, 2022, 11:59:29 pm »
Must have missed your opinion of my team?

It's a difficult one. I made my choice internally weighing up the things my old man told me about Shankly and his teams, and the games I've watched, but obviously I didn't grow up watching Shanks' teams as you did. I read every word in your write-up though and I really enjoyed the views you shared. You even changed my mind on quite a few picks, which I initially misunderstood. I think your team is very close to Nicholls, but ultimately it was easier for me to line up his picks to a Klopp team than it was with yours to a Shankly team.

That's perhaps the failing of this draft that we're depending on people to know all our manager's teams/philosophies/players inside and out. When most of us are too young to be able to. Fairly sure few people in the draft, if any, have watched the '67 European Cup final for example (I did for the first time because of the draft).

I don't think Nicholls' team is perfect either, mind. Stoichkov is not a Klopp player IMO. He was regularly criticized for his lack of workrate and often fell out with managers. No way he'd press in the way Klopp demands of his players. But I do like many other of his choices - Florian Albert an inspired choice for the Bobby F role, Eto'o embodying the workrate needed to succeed in a Klopp team (he played on the right for Inter, so no problem with his position). Coluna in a Wijnaldum type role I especially love too. Absolutely nothing wrong with your Shanks team. I just preferred Nicholls by a smidgen.

So my top 3 are Nicholls, Bobby, Lobo.

Sorry, Lobo. Tough group this one was and I do get that you were going more with Cruyff's overall philosophy than like for like comparisons. But Nicholls and Bobby just nailed it a bit better IMO.
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Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: Diamond Anniversary Draft - GROUP B
« Reply #12 on: December 8, 2022, 12:32:52 am »
What I liked about this draft was the opportunity to create a team in the managers eyes. It was original, nuanced. The music to my dulled ears was 'philosophy,' a managers philosophy. Alas, it is not to be. It has become asinine, devoid of said nuance, instead a microchosim of the world we live in today. Knee jerk, contrary and fucking boring, more of the same, please. I give BB some credit here, at least he does some fucking research. Why bother with a draft where you choose on a whim, a prejudice, your pride has been hurt, you don't give a fuck. Any or all of the aforementioned. Part of the fun should be in the taking part? Listen, I've been guilty of most of what I'm complaining about but let's up our fucking game. I've recognised two great sides already in this draft. I've called it spot on. I know my stuff. Shanks team should have pissed group b, sheer should pissed group c. PHILOSOPHY. Fuck it, I'm going to bed. The black dog has appeared. He;s fooking snarling. Well played to the winner...
...If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same