Author Topic: Do you support the strikes?  (Read 44064 times)

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #920 on: December 6, 2022, 05:19:46 pm »
Also both sides seem to be entrenched on the guardless train thing.  Mick Lynch did a very watchable refute of the idea that trains are like tubes or DLR and NEED conductors.
I'm not taking sides, but it does feel unnecessary for safety to have a guard on every train.  That said if we split the salary across all the passengers on that train, I suspect they'd 'happily' pay.
Maybe it's like asking do we need the safety routine EVERY time we fly on a plane.
I've rambled a bit, but it does feel red lines have been laid, but there should be some ground for movement.

There can be a few hundred people on a train, with basically nowhere to go. I don't think it's unreasonable to have an approachable member of staff on board, whether that's purely needed for safety, or not.



Nobby makes a good point too about RMT not wanting to lose their members on the trains. They'd lose quite a bit of influence.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #921 on: December 6, 2022, 05:33:00 pm »
I'm sure there are plenty of women who feel much safer on Merseyrail knowing there is a guard on the train. I know one of my mates was accosted by a guy but a guard was able to discreetly intervene. I think it's important to have them. The problem is they don't make a company money and everything has to justify its financial existence.
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Offline McSquared

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #922 on: December 6, 2022, 07:18:49 pm »
Guards are only there for revenue protection in the eyes of the rail companies. As soon as there are ticket barriers guards can be dispensed with. When I used to get the train into manchester there were no ticket machines so you had to buy the ticket from the guard. Over years the train got so busy the guard could not sell tickets. They then had no issue in deploying revenue protection at stations along the line. They would never spend money on safety, bigger trains and better rolling stock unless forced to.

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Offline John C

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #924 on: December 6, 2022, 07:39:22 pm »
BBC coverage of this is insidiously one-sided via use of headlines.

From today:

"Union told not to hold country 'to ransom'"

That's an exact same Sky News head line as well though.

Offline John C

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #925 on: December 6, 2022, 07:45:30 pm »
Unless I'm mistaken in the terms of all the franchises I don't think the companies can do a deal in certain circumstances without government approval. Until recently government have just pointed fingers are the union and companies saying its fuck all to do with them and wouldn't sit down to negotiate.

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Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #927 on: December 7, 2022, 08:20:23 am »
Unless I'm mistaken in the terms of all the franchises I don't think the companies can do a deal in certain circumstances without government approval. Until recently government have just pointed fingers are the union and companies saying its fuck all to do with them and wouldn't sit down to negotiate.

I don't know if a deal needed government approval, but they could definitively end this very quickly. Remember how quickly the Arriva bus strike ended, once the local councils put a bit of pressure on them?
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Offline Robinred

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #928 on: December 7, 2022, 12:20:22 pm »
Is the government politicising the rail workers strike? My neighbour is a train driver. He posted this on FB as what he believes is an example of Government Ďbotí factory input. The wording in each case is identical; the inference is pretty damning


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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #929 on: December 7, 2022, 12:29:45 pm »
Guards are only there for revenue protection in the eyes of the rail companies. As soon as there are ticket barriers guards can be dispensed with. When I used to get the train into manchester there were no ticket machines so you had to buy the ticket from the guard. Over years the train got so busy the guard could not sell tickets. They then had no issue in deploying revenue protection at stations along the line. They would never spend money on safety, bigger trains and better rolling stock unless forced to.
Very much agree.  If there was some financial jeopardy to the rail companies - for example, them being open to litigation if somebody was assaulted on a gaurd-less train - then they'd retain guards.  As it is guards are mostly just an expenditure they want to do without.

I rarely get the train these days as I work from home but did catch a return from my town to the closest city for some festive drinks yesterday.  My town station has no barriers and neither do most of the stops along the way - therefore the guard was busy checking tickets.  On the way back there was someone evidently on the wrong train that received advice from the guard and a man in a wheelchair who was told which carriage to get to from where she could deploy the ramp for him.  Both guards seemed to be earning their money!

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #930 on: December 7, 2022, 01:04:19 pm »
Is the government politicising the rail workers strike? My neighbour is a train driver. He posted this on FB as what he believes is an example of Government Ďbotí factory input. The wording in each case is identical; the inference is pretty damning




That is pretty crazy. I'm not on twitter anymore, but maybe someone can find those tweets/people to check?

...also the wording would make me immediatly suspicious. People talking about "militant unions" are usually far-right leaning. And £75k a year? I know they earn well, but that seems over the top.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #931 on: December 7, 2022, 02:38:05 pm »
Is the government politicising the rail workers strike? My neighbour is a train driver. He posted this on FB as what he believes is an example of Government Ďbotí factory input. The wording in each case is identical; the inference is pretty damning


Hardly a surprise - and small fry compared to the [often illegal] shithouse tactics they used during the 84/5 Miners' Strike.

I know Seumas Milne isn't liked on here, but his 'Enemy Within' book is a brilliant expose of the 'dark arts' used byu the Tory scum.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #932 on: December 8, 2022, 01:31:54 am »
If you don't support RMT train strikes and that of the RCN, the UCU, the UCW, the FBU, then you're a tory, right?
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #933 on: December 8, 2022, 07:46:39 am »
It's easier for the Tories to ban strikes than negotiate. :butt Border forces at airports now.
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Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #934 on: December 8, 2022, 07:57:29 am »
It's easier for the Tories to ban strikes than negotiate. :butt Border forces at airports now.

Banning strikes is a dangerous game. Easy to reach a point where strikes will just happen anyway, but will then be unregulated - no prior warning, no re-arranging of work duties etx. There is a critical mass, and they can't sack everybody. And especially in these public and ex-public service sectors now - what are they going to do, sack the striking train drivers? No trains will run. Sack the ambulance crews, or the nurses?
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #935 on: December 8, 2022, 08:24:54 am »
Banning strikes is a dangerous game. Easy to reach a point where strikes will just happen anyway, but will then be unregulated - no prior warning, no re-arranging of work duties etx. There is a critical mass, and they can't sack everybody. And especially in these public and ex-public service sectors now - what are they going to do, sack the striking train drivers? No trains will run. Sack the ambulance crews, or the nurses?

Aye. It's not like the miners. But the government seems to think it's still the 1980s. I've said a few times, it's like they all read "Thatcherism for Dummies"

It's a more contemptuous and egregious abuse of power than anything in recent years, and  these are the people who partied during a pandemic.
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Offline Craig S

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #936 on: December 8, 2022, 09:31:24 am »
Is the government politicising the rail workers strike? My neighbour is a train driver. He posted this on FB as what he believes is an example of Government Ďbotí factory input. The wording in each case is identical; the inference is pretty damning

8.5% pay rise in May. It is a great advert for the RMT Union to have negotiated that for them.

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #937 on: December 8, 2022, 09:53:04 am »
So two years ago clapping for the NHS and now clapping them in irons. This is going to end well.

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #938 on: December 8, 2022, 10:13:04 am »
So two years ago clapping for the NHS and now clapping them in irons. This is going to end well.

Said this the other week about all the "Key Workers" - Heroes 2 years ago and now back to being a bunch of c*nts
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #939 on: December 8, 2022, 10:26:51 am »
Sorry if this has been covered, but why can the Tories claim that giving an increase in to rail workers will increase inflation but not increased share holder profits. 

If there is a pot of money in operator profits why would the fat cats keeping more of, by paying lower wages, not also increase inflation?

Offline Jshooters

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #940 on: December 8, 2022, 10:59:16 am »
Sorry if this has been covered, but why can the Tories claim that giving an increase in to rail workers will increase inflation but not increased share holder profits. 

If there is a pot of money in operator profits why would the fat cats keeping more of, by paying lower wages, not also increase inflation?

Good question.  Add to that the fact that inflation only occurs becasue businesses are forever seeking obscene profits.....heaven forbid that large numbers of the population could live on a comfortable wage, paying a fair price for goods and services whilst a rail company or supermarket chain made £1.5bn profit rather than £2.5bn

MPs are never asked to explain step by step how a wage increase will fuel inflation becasue it will come down to big business maintaining their profit margins
« Last Edit: December 8, 2022, 11:03:25 am by Jshooters »
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #941 on: December 8, 2022, 11:14:47 am »
Sorry if this has been covered, but why can the Tories claim that giving an increase in to rail workers will increase inflation but not increased share holder profits. 

If there is a pot of money in operator profits why would the fat cats keeping more of, by paying lower wages, not also increase inflation?
Beause those additional wages for most people will be spent in the economy creating a multiplier effect.  Shareholders proportionately will take more of the money out of the economy.

The Tory approach is let the workers live lives without extravagance and shareholders accumulate wealth they will never get close to spending.

Of course any questionning of shareholder's doing very well is answered with a line well rehearsed by Tory politicians and their enablers; some of those shareholders are our pension providers, you wouldn't want them to suffer now, would you?

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #942 on: December 8, 2022, 11:24:46 am »
Beause those additional wages for most people will be spent in the economy creating a multiplier effect.  Shareholders proportionately will take more of the money out of the economy.

The Tory approach is let the workers live lives without extravagance and shareholders accumulate wealth they will never get close to spending.

Of course any questionning of shareholder's doing very well is answered with a line well rehearsed by Tory politicians and their enablers; some of those shareholders are our pension providers, you wouldn't want them to suffer now, would you?

ok thanks for the reply (Jshooters too)


Why would "Shareholders proportionately will take more of the money out of the economy."
Is it because rail workers will spend the extra money in 'Tesco' where as a Fat cat will spend it in the Maldives?

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #943 on: December 8, 2022, 11:43:40 am »
Sorry if this has been covered, but why can the Tories claim that giving an increase in to rail workers will increase inflation but not increased share holder profits. 

If there is a pot of money in operator profits why would the fat cats keeping more of, by paying lower wages, not also increase inflation?


It's just the typical Tory guff to scare people and get more of the electorate to turn against the workers.

Fact is, rail fares will increase in January in accordance with the RPI in the preceding July (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/how-much-could-rail-fares-increase-by-in-2023-and-why/#:~:text=The%20rise%20in%20rail%20fares,new%20cap%20will%20rise%20by.) regardless of the pay rise rail workers receive.

But, like I've already said, the percentage rise is not the underlying issue here. The government wants to scrap certain established/contractual agreements on working practices (which have been detailed), so are forcing NR/TOCs to make any pay rise conditional on the unions accepting these cuts.

The pay rise is just deflection.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #944 on: December 8, 2022, 11:47:32 am »
Beause those additional wages for most people will be spent in the economy creating a multiplier effect.  Shareholders proportionately will take more of the money out of the economy.

The Tory approach is let the workers live lives without extravagance and shareholders accumulate wealth they will never get close to spending.

Of course any questionning of shareholder's doing very well is answered with a line well rehearsed by Tory politicians and their enablers; some of those shareholders are our pension providers, you wouldn't want them to suffer now, would you?


It's pure bollocks, though, because this bout of inflation isn't caused by an overheating economy leading to demand-pull inflation. The inflation is caused by imported factors (principally a global energy price shock, at a time when global supply chains continue to suffer from the disrupting legacy of Covid).

And pay rise is just going to be eaten up on day-to-day increases in the price of, well, everything, which happens whether the rail workers get a cost-of-living pay rise or not.

There's some actual economists who are parrotting the Tory lie (likely because they have the ame political agenda) but you'll find plenty more who refute the inflationary myth.



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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #945 on: December 8, 2022, 12:20:29 pm »
After 11 weeks of strikes, Jacobs factory workers have accepted an offer of 6.5% rise and a one-off payment of £500 this year plus an additional 3% and £250 payment next year.

They were originally offered 4% (and no one off payment)

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/jacobs-workers-merseyside-agree-new-25702630


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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #946 on: December 8, 2022, 12:33:54 pm »
After 11 weeks of strikes, Jacobs factory workers have accepted an offer of 6.5% rise and a one-off payment of £500 this year plus an additional 3% and £250 payment next year.

They were originally offered 4% (and no one off payment)

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/jacobs-workers-merseyside-agree-new-25702630

Well done to those ladies and gentlemen  :thumbup

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #947 on: December 8, 2022, 12:59:54 pm »
ok thanks for the reply (Jshooters too)


Why would "Shareholders proportionately will take more of the money out of the economy."
Is it because rail workers will spend the extra money in 'Tesco' where as a Fat cat will spend it in the Maldives?


More because the fat cat will squirrel it away in the Caymen Islands.
Also , 'profits' can be invested in the business to grow the business. This is of course spending money, which I guess could leave to demand pull inflation.
Nobby is right of course that the huge , current jump in inflation is prinicipally caused by the energy shock.
My view is that the shock is shit, and we all need to shoulder some of the cost. The problem , as I see it, is that it the many are being expected to shoulder the cost , while the few aren't.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #948 on: December 8, 2022, 01:27:06 pm »
More because the fat cat will squirrel it away in the Caymen Islands.
Also , 'profits' can be invested in the business to grow the business. This is of course spending money, which I guess could leave to demand pull inflation.
Nobby is right of course that the huge , current jump in inflation is prinicipally caused by the energy shock.
My view is that the shock is shit, and we all need to shoulder some of the cost. The problem , as I see it, is that it the many are being expected to shoulder the cost , while the few aren't.

That, and people have been shouldering the cost via austerity and depressed wages for over a decade before this even happened. It's the proverbial straw.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #949 on: December 8, 2022, 02:26:21 pm »
8.5% pay rise in May. It is a great advert for the RMT Union to have negotiated that for them.

Except as far as I can see, itís not true. The 8.5% rise is the one on offer - and itís over two years, 4.5% in the 1st year and 4% in the 2nd.

Also involved are considerable changes which would see a reduction of numbers of non-driving workers, like guards, ticketing staff, catering arrangements, and the issue of passenger safety on driver-only staffed trains. The more the train companies reduce running costs by reducing staff, the greater their profits, and subsequent dividends to shareholders. Of course the term they use for the strings attached to the pay offer is Ďmodernisationí. As 70% of our rail companies are now owned by German, Dutch, French and other European companies, thatís also a bone of contention for RMT.

As youíd expect, the government - supporting newspapers are using very strong language in their reporting of this dispute. This is from the Expressís Leo McKinstry last June, and I think itís worth quoting in full:


ďThe Labour Party has just provided a terrifying glimpse of the future if it regains power at the next election.
Under a cowardly Left-wing government led by Sir Keir Starmer, the trade union bullies would be back in charge.
Industrial relations would return to the dark days of the 1970s when Britain was known as "the sick man of Europe" because of the widespread militancy.
That is the only conclusion that can be drawn from Lisa Nandy, the senior Labour frontbencher, when she used a TV interview yesterday to express her full support for the rail strike later this month over pay and pensions.
Called by the hardline RMT union and the white-collar TSSA, the stoppage by at least 50,000 workers will effectively last a week and will be the biggest on the network for decades.
Despite the misery, Labour is acting as a cheerleader for the strike. The party, said Ms Nandy, is "on the rail workers' side" because "they are really struggling to make ends meet".
That is the voice, not of a credible alternative government, but of a political puppet controlled by wreckers who want to hold the country to ransom for their own selfish ends.
Nandy's stance has been adopted by the other Labour MPs, like Ian Byrne, who proclaimed that "the British working-class should not have to beg".
That sort of language demolishes the pretence that Labour has shifted to the centre since Jeremy Corbyn was ditched as leader in 2020. In truth, the party remains in thrall to the outdated ideology, methods and rhetoric of the socialist struggle against oppression.
With railways, such an outlook is ridiculous. Rail staff are far better off than most British workers.
In addition to job security, good pensions, limited hours and generous holidays, their median salary last year was £44,000, around 60 per cent higher than average pay.
No fewer than a third are higher-rate taxpayers, earning over £50,000. That compares with an average pay rate of £17,000 for care assistants, £31,000 for nurses and £37,000 for teachers.
On every level, Labour's support for the strike is outrageous and economically illiterate. The railways, which this year will receive a massive subsidy of £16billion in the face of heavily declining passenger numbers, cannot afford an exorbitant pay demand.
Moreover, a large settlement for rail staff will feed a cycle of other unaffordable deals in the public sector, pushing up debt and inflation. Soon the nation could be in the grip of a summer of discontent, fomented in part by the reckless Opposition.
Labour has shown once again that they are unfit for office. The party was founded in 1900 as the political wing of the trade union movement and remains in that supine position to this day, with the militants proving much of Labour's funding and dictating its policy.


Yet the unions, whose membership has halved in the last 40 years, are no longer the authentic representatives of the working-class. Instead, they have largely become - as in the railways - the defenders of narrow, public-sector privileges and outdated practices.
It says everything Labour should still be marching in lockstep with this "I'm All Right Jack" bunch of trouble-makers.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #950 on: December 8, 2022, 02:44:48 pm »
Quote
In addition to job security, good pensions, limited hours and generous holidays, their median salary last year was £44,000, around 60 per cent higher than average pay.
No fewer than a third are higher-rate taxpayers, earning over £50,000. That compares with an average pay rate of £17,000 for care assistants, £31,000 for nurses and £37,000 for teachers.
On every level, Labour's support for the strike is outrageous and economically illiterate. The railways, which this year will receive a massive subsidy of £16billion in the face of heavily declining passenger numbers, cannot afford an exorbitant pay demand.

Is there an reliable retort to this.
This is what will lose the public support.
My guess is they are including the train drivers and management here. Most of whom won't be striking.

I think the 'middle  ground' has to be fixed pay rises, rather than percentages.
£2000 is a lot when you are on £17k , not so meaningful when on £50k.  12% on the lower end, 4% at the higher.  But proabably mitigates a lot of the fuel price rises for both. It's still a lot of money to find, but seems more manageable.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #951 on: December 8, 2022, 02:52:54 pm »
Is there an reliable retort to this.
This is what will lose the public support.
My guess is they are including the train drivers and management here. Most of whom won't be striking.

I think the 'middle  ground' has to be fixed pay rises, rather than percentages.
£2000 is a lot when you are on £17k , not so meaningful when on £50k.  12% on the lower end, 4% at the higher.  But proabably mitigates a lot of the fuel price rises for both. It's still a lot of money to find, but seems more manageable.

Its false. It was claimed by Shapps - it inlcudes drivers so it handily pushes up this median salary. still getting quoted:
https://fullfact.org/economy/RMT-strike-salary/

« Last Edit: December 8, 2022, 02:55:12 pm by Craig S »

Offline Craig S

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #952 on: December 8, 2022, 02:54:20 pm »
Except as far as I can see, itís not true. The 8.5% rise is the one on offer - and itís over two years, 4.5% in the 1st year and 4% in the 2nd.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic that those spam bots were actually showing rmt in a good light as they managed to get these drivers such a raise- so everyone should join a union! Worded it badly

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #953 on: December 8, 2022, 03:19:55 pm »
Is there an reliable retort to this.
This is what will lose the public support.
My guess is they are including the train drivers and management here. Most of whom won't be striking.

I think the 'middle  ground' has to be fixed pay rises, rather than percentages.
£2000 is a lot when you are on £17k , not so meaningful when on £50k.  12% on the lower end, 4% at the higher.  But proabably mitigates a lot of the fuel price rises for both. It's still a lot of money to find, but seems more manageable.


The pay settlement isn't the issue for this government.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #954 on: December 8, 2022, 03:54:11 pm »
Is there an reliable retort to this.
This is what will lose the public support.
My guess is they are including the train drivers and management here. Most of whom won't be striking.

I think the 'middle  ground' has to be fixed pay rises, rather than percentages.
£2000 is a lot when you are on £17k , not so meaningful when on £50k.  12% on the lower end, 4% at the higher.  But proabably mitigates a lot of the fuel price rises for both. It's still a lot of money to find, but seems more manageable.

If its still running at the same rate, the cost to the economy of Truss and Kwartengs fucking suicidal budget is around £30 million between your post and this post. £28,000,000 per hour, £672,000,000 a day £4,389,000,000 per week and £20,832,000,000 a month. Tell them to direct their moans at those c*nts, not the rail staff.

Edit:- Its 672 million a day and 20 billion a week
« Last Edit: December 8, 2022, 07:35:25 pm by robbed1966kidsbikesoffsanta »
Fuck the Tories

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #955 on: December 8, 2022, 04:39:53 pm »
Wonder if the government is also playing hardball because they know some sort of nationalisation of the rail companies is coming. With the current situation, they can offload the blame for bad wage offers etc to the rail franchise companies. So any cost reductions done now wil make it cheaper when they have to step in. (And they will, because the trains are a mess and are unworkable much longer).
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Online Machae

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #956 on: December 8, 2022, 04:40:06 pm »
If its still running at the same rate, the cost to the economy of Truss and Kwartengs fucking suicidal budget is around £30 million between your post and this post. £28,000,000 per hour, £672,000,000 a week and £20,832,000,000 a month. Tell them to direct their moans at those c*nts, not the rail staff.

Don't understand why this isn't shouted from the rooftops by Starmer/Labour. Keep hammering home this message, repeatedly over and over again, on TV, Radio. PMQs.

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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #957 on: December 8, 2022, 06:23:57 pm »
Wonder if the government is also playing hardball because they know some sort of nationalisation of the rail companies is coming. With the current situation, they can offload the blame for bad wage offers etc to the rail franchise companies. So any cost reductions done now wil make it cheaper when they have to step in. (And they will, because the trains are a mess and are unworkable much longer).
Good point. That probably needs to be factored in. Though if they are leaving it to labour to nationalise them, surely they want them to be picking up the biggest wage bill possible.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #958 on: December 8, 2022, 06:49:00 pm »
The government aren't concerned about solving the NHS+Rail disputes.
They know the NHS won't be able to cope this winter no matter what so they plan to use the disputes as a excuse to lay the blame on militant unions, they can argue they are standing up to the unions to protect the public while Labour are on the strikers side. the fact the NHS was already in crisis will be ignored.
 We will have to wait and see how the public feel about these strikes when Xmas and the cold weather hits.
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Re: Do you support the rail strikes?
« Reply #959 on: December 8, 2022, 07:04:29 pm »
The public will do what the media tells them.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.