Topic: Brexit. the Con continues

[rafathegaffa83]

I'm always bemused by the fact that all these right wing 'law and order' parties are the ones consistently breaking the law, yet no one calls them out on it.

I remember listening to a radio talkshow after Trump was elected and it was striking that the majority of the individuals who voted for Trump did so in part because they believed other people (i.e minorities) had been receiving too many societal benefits at their expense. Trumpism, Brexit, populism all tend to follow a similar pattern in which the proponents that vote for them believe they should be receiving certain benefits at the expense of others, who should be punished through various means (i.e jailed, deprived of welfare etc).

Thus, it's not difficult to see the link between this recent disregard for international law and the phrase attributed to Peruvian leader Oscar Benavides: "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.” The problem with populist movements like Brexit is that they feed off domestic irrational whims, but can't balance those with international systems of law and governance which they cannot manipulate.

[Nobby Reserve]

I remember listening to a radio talkshow after Trump was elected and it was striking that the majority of the individuals who voted for Trump did so in part because they believed other people (i.e minorities) had been receiving too many societal benefits at their expense. Trumpism, Brexit, populism all tend to follow a similar pattern in which the proponents that vote for them believe they should be receiving certain benefits at the expense of others, who should be punished through various means (i.e jailed, deprived of welfare etc).

It's easy to just dismiss this as smallminded cretinism, but there's a reason why people turn on scapegoats. You don't see anything like as much scapegoating when people are happy and comfortable in their lives. The right-wing media has for decades been gaslighting us all to heap the blame for our shitty lives upon certain groups, to divert attention away from the real cause of poverty: that too much money is hoarded in obscene amounts by a relatively small number of people.

I get the feeling that many of the embittered 'plebs' are actually angry that they don't have the perceived benefits of previous generations - the 'job for life' with much less pressure that paid enough to buy you a decent house, a car and have a holiday every year - but take that anger out onthe people they've been brainwashed into believing are at fault.

[Jiminy Cricket]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54069456

I wish all you remoaner moaning Minnie's would stop your fomplants about job losses, breaches if International law and potential disorder in Ulster.

We're going to have a Festival!

Hip, hip hooray. And we'll sing what we like even 'There'll always be an England'. That'll be one  in in the eye for the liberal, metropolitan elite.

Delusional. It will never happen - the festival, and the 'healing'. By my estimation, 2022 is when the tide will have properly turned and there is no longer any broad discussion of the merits of Brexit. Almost to a man and woman, it will be derided as a complete and utter disaster.

[Riquende]

Delusional. It will never happen - the festival, and the 'healing'.

There can't be any healing, because the people that keep winning votes (not just Brexit but Trump, Brazil etc) choose to rub the faces of the losers in it, driving up resentment.

[TSC]

EU now calling for an emergency meeting with government regarding governments intention to break international law.  Irish leader also scathing and said this undermines trust.

[Machae]

Are we too down in the weeds to sack this whole Brexit bollocks (legally) and go back to like nothings happened.

I expect invoking article 50, means it's too late, but could we just say, yeah, we want to stay in now, under the same conditions as before this clusterfuck?

I appreciate there are people in power to prevent this happening, but is it possible?

[rafathegaffa83]

I get the feeling that many of the embittered 'plebs' are actually angry that they don't have the perceived benefits of previous generations - the 'job for life' with much less pressure that paid enough to buy you a decent house, a car and have a holiday every year - but take that anger out onthe people they've been brainwashed into believing are at fault.

I think that plays a large part of it

[Jiminy Cricket]

Are we too down in the weeds to sack this whole Brexit bollocks (legally) and go back to like nothings happened.

I expect invoking article 50, means it's too late, but could we just say, yeah, we want to stay in now, under the same conditions as before this clusterfuck?

I appreciate there are people in power to prevent this happening, but is it possible?

Putting aside the lack of political will in the UK - it is legally not possible. After we left, the whole legal framework for membership was dismantled. We would now have to go through the very same application process as any other country wishing to join. Sure, we are already complaint, so that makes it much, much easier integrating. But we would have to go through the ratification process, where every member of the EU would have to agree and pass laws allowing our membership. Could you imagine the UK being given an easy ride with rejoining in five or ten years time, never mind now. The UK has shot any remaining good will. It's a fucking disaster.

[Nobby Reserve]

Putting aside the lack of political will in the UK - it is legally not possible. After we left, the whole legal framework for membership was dismantled. We would now have to go through the very same application process as any other country wishing to join. Sure, we are already complaint, so that makes it much, much easier integrating. But we would have to go through the ratification process, where every member of the EU would have to agree and pass laws allowing our membership. Could you imagine the UK being given an easy ride with rejoining in five or ten years time, never mind now. The UK has shot any remaining good will. It's a fucking disaster.

I'd love to see us have to crawl back on our knees begging, and be forced to accept things like Schengen, the Euro, removal of our veto, etc.

Would be quite the epitaph for the Brexwits.

I genuinely would love to see us absorbed into a United States of Europe and the whole GB/UK name live on only in the history books. I've grown to despise this country, its nationalism, its exceptionalism, most of its people.

[Felch Aid]

Putting aside the lack of political will in the UK - it is legally not possible. After we left, the whole legal framework for membership was dismantled. We would now have to go through the very same application process as any other country wishing to join. Sure, we are already complaint, so that makes it much, much easier integrating. But we would have to go through the ratification process, where every member of the EU would have to agree and pass laws allowing our membership. Could you imagine the UK being given an easy ride with rejoining in five or ten years time, never mind now. The UK has shot any remaining good will. It's a fucking disaster.

This.

BRINO or no deal.

5 years of chaos. followed by another 5 years trying to get back in. #easiestdealintheworld

[Kekule]

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1303684278891446283?s=20

NEW: No10 says the Brexit deal was signed in a rush:

"The withdrawal agreement and Northern Ireland protocol aren’t like any other treaty. It was agreed at pace at the most challenging political circumstances to deliver on a clear political decision of the British people."

Britain will now sign any old international treaty if they're "in a rush" it seems.

 

Firstly.  That's not what they said in January.
Secondly.  What kind of reckless idiots sign international treaties solely because they are "in a rush".
Thirdly.  Who's fault was it that they were in a rush in the first place? They put themselves in that position by making idiotic promises.  Instead of being grown ups and admitting it could take years to get it "right" they decided to pander to the screaming 5 years olds who were having a tantrum that it was taking too long.

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

[rafathegaffa83]

Firstly.  That's not what they said in January.
Secondly.  What kind of reckless idiots sign international treaties solely because they are "in a rush".
Thirdly.  Who's fault was it that they were in a rush in the first place? They put themselves in that position by making idiotic promises.  Instead of being grown ups and admitting it could take years to get it "right" they decided to pander to the screaming 5 years olds who were having a tantrum that it was taking too long.

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

Absolutely on points 3 and 4

[oldfordie]

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1303684278891446283?s=20

Britain will now sign any old international treaty if they're "in a rush" it seems.

 

Firstly.  That's not what they said in January.
Secondly.  What kind of reckless idiots sign international treaties solely because they are "in a rush".
Thirdly.  Who's fault was it that they were in a rush in the first place? They put themselves in that position by making idiotic promises.  Instead of being grown ups and admitting it could take years to get it "right" they decided to pander to the screaming 5 years olds who were having a tantrum that it was taking too long.

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

A Tory MP took it even further on TV last night, is this actually a defence or someone arguing the toss to defend his young lad who has just been screwed into a bad long term contract. we are talking about the PM+the British Government, to argue someone took advantage of us is a shocking argument to make. shall we send over Boris's mum to give them a piece of her mind, treating her poor boy like that.

"Poor Boris had his back against the wall and had to act fast so we signed the deal to quickly, the EU knew this and acted in bad faith, they took advantage of us."

[Nobby Reserve]

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1303684278891446283?s=20

Britain will now sign any old international treaty if they're "in a rush" it seems.

 

Firstly.  That's not what they said in January.
Secondly.  What kind of reckless idiots sign international treaties solely because they are "in a rush".
Thirdly.  Who's fault was it that they were in a rush in the first place? They put themselves in that position by making idiotic promises.  Instead of being grown ups and admitting it could take years to get it "right" they decided to pander to the screaming 5 years olds who were having a tantrum that it was taking too long.

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

It was done in a rush so he could declare to the electorate that he'd secured a 'fantastic' Withdrawal Agreement, in order to increase his election chances.

Anyone with an ounce of understanding said at the time "this is even worse than May's" but the Brexwit plebs don't deal in facts, just rainbows and unicorns.

[redbyrdz]

Are we too down in the weeds to sack this whole Brexit bollocks (legally) and go back to like nothings happened.

I expect invoking article 50, means it's too late, but could we just say, yeah, we want to stay in now, under the same conditions as before this clusterfuck?

I appreciate there are people in power to prevent this happening, but is it possible?

No. There is no article 50 anymore. As every gov.uk site will remind you at the bottom, "The UK has left the EU."


And they've made it illegal to extend the transition period. They now need to sign a trade deal with the EU within the next 4 weeks (so the EU has time to ratify it), or on the 1st January, the UK will become one of only a handful of countries trading on pure WTO terms.

[killer-heels]

I saw James Cleverley talk about this on Daily Politics.

Honestly these lot are exactly the same as Bolsonaro and Trump. If only some disaster could kill off them Tory c*nts, this world would be a better place.

[TSC]

As a clue as to what’s behind the breaking of the law, Cummings wrote something in his blog about how the law doesn’t apply to the government.  Got form of course, after they prorogued parliament.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

I can assure you that - at least in New Zealand's case - we're rather more interested in the powers contained in the new bill that allow British ministers to unilaterally opt out of any treaty clauses they decide they don't like.

Good luck securing any trade deals at all with anyone ever again with that reputation and belief.

[PaulF]

Was there going to be a vote today on changing the agreement, or have the government just decided they are going to do it?

The govn't are painting it as a minor amendment to prevent them being backed into a corner, rather than a complete ignore of the agreement.
Would other countries thrashing out deals see it as such? Presumably if there are negotiations with other countries, then countries that are wary of our behaviour will write the agreement in such a way that they can just back out if we renege. I assume any trade deal would be like this anyhow. If one side doesn't uphold their side , then the deal is over.  It's shitty behaviour by the government, but it might not prejudice long term deals .  Though I backpedal here, thinking about the effect on the GFA and Biden's stance.

[Alan_X]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54069456

I wish all you remoaner moaning Minnie's would stop your fomplants about job losses, breaches if International law and potential disorder in Ulster.

We're going to have a Festival!

Hip, hip hooray. And we'll sing what we like even 'There'll always be an England'. That'll be one  in in the eye for the liberal, metropolitan elite.

I know - we could concrete over Lincolnshire (they love Brexit) and park a hundred thousand lorries full of rotting vegetables and fish. And in the middle there would be an enormous pile of steaming turds to signify all of the bullshit spouted by the leave campaign and the Tories.

[Alan_X]

There can't be any healing, because the people that keep winning votes (not just Brexit but Trump, Brazil etc) choose to rub the faces of the losers in it, driving up resentment.

I don't feel resentment because they try to rub my nose in it. I know they are just pathetic, deluded fuckwits who have no fucking comprehension of what they have done to the country.

My anger is down to what they've done, not how they've behaved. 

[Nobby Reserve]

Oh yes!!

Even more - as if it were needed - reason to want that fat, orange sex pest out of the WH:


Darren McCaffrey
@DarrenEuronews
·
1h
BREAK: Warning shot fired by US Democrats on #Brexit

@SpeakerPelosi
 

"If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."


https://twitter.com/DarrenEuronews/status/1303784063933788160

[killer-heels]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54069456

I wish all you remoaner moaning Minnie's would stop your fomplants about job losses, breaches if International law and potential disorder in Ulster.

We're going to have a Festival!

Hip, hip hooray. And we'll sing what we like even 'There'll always be an England'. That'll be one  in in the eye for the liberal, metropolitan elite.

It will play a powerful role when I’ll throw a petrol bomb into the crowd there. Nobody is going to miss a few gammons.

[Circa1892]

As a clue as to what’s behind the breaking of the law, Cummings wrote something in his blog about how the law doesn’t apply to the government.  Got form of course, after they prorogued parliament.

I know this gets a few people upset on here as they like to see him as the evil genius he pretends to be. But he is thick isn’t he. He’s all mouth and no trousers. Him and Johnson are never one move ahead as they pretend.

Like with this shit. What’s the game. Playing silly buggars and violating international law is bonkers - and considering their hero and idol is going to be kicked out of the White House and Biden, like Obama, will see Germany as more of a natural ally.

Dumb fucking c*nts.

[Circa1892]

It will play a powerful role when I’ll throw a petrol bomb into the crowd there. Nobody is going to miss a few gammons.

Will chip in for your statue after the event.

[Circa1892]

I wonder what the next step is. This government are all about PR and media management. Maybe Mr Hard Brexit Sunak will extend furlough for a sector or two for a few weeks to get that on the front pages and have them back as the people’s government. (Yes, Johnson is the man now - but Sunak has always been the pet for the hardcore vote leavers)

[oldfordie]

I know this gets a few people upset on here as they like to see him as the evil genius he pretends to be. But he is thick isn’t he. He’s all mouth and no trousers. Him and Johnson are never one move ahead as they pretend.

Like with this shit. What’s the game. Playing silly buggars and violating international law is bonkers - and considering their hero and idol is going to be kicked out of the White House and Biden, like Obama, will see Germany as more of a natural ally.

Dumb fucking c*nts.

I think he understands how the average voter thinks, every time the Tories do something outrageously bad I imagine him sat in the background telling Johnson not worry about it, most people wont understand and the ones what do will soon forget about it anyway, Proroguing Parliament was all over the news last year, people had to be reminded of it the last few days. most wont receive that reminder.
I enjoyed the docudrama on Cummings but when you take time to digest it you realize CA had the biggest impact but Cummings was given the credit, 1 good slogan."Take back control" all down to him knowing how the average voter thinks. hardly a mastermind.

[Circa1892]

I wonder if any Tories get kicked out of the party for voting against this in the next week.

Pretty clear that May will vote against it in the Commons and Major certainly will in the Lords. Do Johnson and his minder add two ex-PMs to the two ex-Chancellors they kicked out?

[oldfordie]

I wonder if any Tories get kicked out of the party for voting against this in the next week.

Pretty clear that May will vote against it in the Commons and Major certainly will in the Lords. Do Johnson and his minder add two ex-PMs to the two ex-Chancellors they kicked out?

The Lords pass anything the party wrote in it's manifesto, the way the Lords look at is they are going to block it, they are not blocking something in the Tories Manifesto,quiet the opposite, they are insisting they keep to their manifesto promises on Johnsons deal.
Many Tories think Johnson went to far kicking Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve and others out the party. Johnson is making a big mistake if he kicks the last PM out the party. unforgivable in many Tory party members/supporters eyes. I will love it if he does as I am no fan of Mays as PM but it will be more about Johnson making a big mistake.

[killer-heels]

It would be great seeing Theresa May get kicked out the party.

[12C]

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1303684278891446283?s=20

Britain will now sign any old international treaty if they're "in a rush" it seems.

 

Firstly.  That's not what they said in January.
Secondly.  What kind of reckless idiots sign international treaties solely because they are "in a rush".
Thirdly.  Who's fault was it that they were in a rush in the first place? They put themselves in that position by making idiotic promises.  Instead of being grown ups and admitting it could take years to get it "right" they decided to pander to the screaming 5 years olds who were having a tantrum that it was taking too long.

Finally.  These are the people who are going to be in charge of negotiating future trade deals.  I imagine other countries will be very interested to hear our government don't read things properly and will sign anything if they're desperate enough.

It’s what happens when you try to pander to Frottage and the rest of his idiot following.

[TSC]

Oh yes!!

Even more - as if it were needed - reason to want that fat, orange sex pest out of the WH:


Darren McCaffrey
@DarrenEuronews
·
1h
BREAK: Warning shot fired by US Democrats on #Brexit

@SpeakerPelosi
 

"If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."


https://twitter.com/DarrenEuronews/status/1303784063933788160

So our populist government will be rooting for big bro populist government in the coming US election.

[Riquende]

It would be great seeing Theresa May get kicked out the party.

It would break her, the party has clearly been a big part of her identity for almost her entire life.

[Riquende]

I don't feel resentment because they try to rub my nose in it. I know they are just pathetic, deluded fuckwits who have no fucking comprehension of what they have done to the country.

My anger is down to what they've done, not how they've behaved.

Maybe not you personally, but one of the things that keeps democracy ticking over is the idea of losers' consent, the idea that once our preferred candidate fails to attain power we accept that the winners did. A big part of that is the winners behaving as if they're governing for the whole country as opposed to representing the narrow interests of whatever group did put them into power (and whilst I'm talking about the politicians here, their supporters are also culpable).

We just haven't seen that in the last 5 years. The poles are too far apart, politics is too partisan. The anonymity and lack of consequences afforded to social media users have led to the winning side revelling in victory (whilst not knowing what to do with it). The noise is driven up by the troll farms, of course, cheerleading against remoaners, libtards, snowflakes etc. There's no effective leadership being done to bring 'the other side' on board, because all these populist governments know is appealing to their base, because without it's enthusiastic support, they fall.

So it's hard to find the will to support these awful things, because there's no effort being made to make it easy, just pelters for not doing it.

[Alan_X]

Maybe not you personally, but one of the things that keeps democracy ticking over is the idea of losers' consent, the idea that once our preferred candidate fails to attain power we accept that the winners did. A big part of that is the winners behaving as if they're governing for the whole country as opposed to representing the narrow interests of whatever group did put them into power (and whilst I'm talking about the politicians here, their supporters are also culpable).

We just haven't seen that in the last 5 years. The poles are too far apart, politics is too partisan. The anonymity and lack of consequences afforded to social media users have led to the winning side revelling in victory (whilst not knowing what to do with it). The noise is driven up by the troll farms, of course, cheerleading against remoaners, libtards, snowflakes etc. There's no effective leadership being done to bring 'the other side' on board, because all these populist governments know is appealing to their base, because without it's enthusiastic support, they fall.

So it's hard to find the will to support these awful things, because there's no effort being made to make it easy, just pelters for not doing it.

That's fair comment. Especially the point about 'loser's consent.

[Nobby Reserve]

The Lords pass anything the party wrote in it's manifesto, the way the Lords look at is they are going to block it, they are not blocking something in the Tories Manifesto,quiet the opposite, they are insisting they keep to their manifesto promises on Johnsons deal.
Many Tories think Johnson went to far kicking Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve and others out the party. Johnson is making a big mistake if he kicks the last PM out the party. unforgivable in many Tory party members/supporters eyes. I will love it if he does as I am no fan of Mays as PM but it will be more about Johnson making a big mistake.

I think Rasputin would realise this and they'd be far more subtle in driving her out.

[PaulF]

It will play a powerful role when I’ll throw a petrol bomb into the crowd there. Nobody is going to miss a few gammons.

Two hands and only one bomb? Make sure your silk scarf is flame retardant too.

[Nobby Reserve]

We all hoped the NI-Ireland border would be a bit of a golden bullet, as you cannot maintain the GFA AND the Union as it stands AND not have a trade agreement with the EU. But the shysters managed to kick the can sufficiently far down the road to hoodwink enough people to vote for them in December.

Given the headbangers are intent on no-deal, either the GFA or the Union (by way of imposing the necessary hard border between NI and rUK) has to be sacrificed.

The international ramifications of trashing the GFA are obviously massive, as the Democrats have reiterated today.

But then, imposing a hard border in the Irish Sea would lead to the destruction of the Union (and hopefully lead to the unification of Ireland) and that would be a huge embarrassment domestically, especially given the name of the party.

Of course, the 'solution' this bunch of arseholes comes up with is simply to cheat; pretend international laws and conventions don't apply, and say they will create no hard border anywhere. They keep talking about WTO applying.

But that is impossible.

Under WTO rules, you cannot discriminate between different countries you trade with under WTO rules. Therefore, if the UK leaves an open border between Ireland and NI with no hard/customs border between the 'Ireland trade area' - which would essentially be the EU - and rUK, it then cannot impose hard/customs borders between the UK and any other country is trades with under WTO rules. In other words, if it applies a no-tariff system between Ireland (for legal reasons, the EU) and UK, it cannot then apply tariffs to goods entering the UK from any other country.

They know this, but their MO is to heap the blame elsewhere. Sickeningly, enough ignorant pricks in this country will accept the lies, and believe the bullsh*t that Johnson is sticking it to the Brussels Bureaucrats.

[redbyrdz]

I wouldn't be surprised if they end up with something that puts borders both into Ireland and into the Irish sea.

[oldfordie]

I wouldn't be surprised if they end up with something that puts borders both into Ireland and into the Irish sea.

I think it's just another example of how the Tories view their supporters and leave voters, they think they are ignorant so they will be able to lay all the blame for a hard border on the EU when it happens.
If they break the WA then I assume there will be no customs posts for goods travelling from GB into NI. so no border erected by the UK.
The EU will bring in a hard border they have no choice under EU+WTO regulations. Johnson will probably scream the EU are to blame for this.we didn't introduce a border in the Irish sea and everthings fine so why don't they do the same at the Republic/NI border. all the EUs fault.