Topic: Steven Gerrard

[Billy The Kid]

The suggestion that Graeme Souness could do nothing better than Stevie G is bollocks and could only come from someone who didn't see Souness in his pomp.

There are probably quiet a few things that Souness could do in his prime that Gerrard can't do. I can think of a few right off the bat

But if you objectively listed the things that Gerrard can do that Souness couldn't, then I think you'll find that Gerrard's list would be longer

[-Daws-]

i DREAD the day when Stevie calls in quits. i just hope he quits WITH Liverpool FC

Yeah I heard he's gunna' go to United to win that elusive Premier League title and retire with an expensive scotch shared with Sir Alex, Paul and Ryan next season.



Am to young to get involved in this convosation, Steven Gerrard is easily the greatest player I've seen in the flesh to play in red. And Michael Owen hurt me.

[jckliew]

Yeah I heard he's gunna' go to United to win that elusive Premier League title and retire with an expensive scotch shared with Mr Ferguson, Paul and Ryan next season.



Am to young to get involved in this convosation, Steven Gerrard is easily the greatest player I've seen in the flesh to play in red. And Michael Owen hurt me.

Go back to yer playpan....... 

What i mean is he will always bring quality to any team.........
would NOT like to see him playing against us, whatever the team

[-Daws-]

Go back to yer playpan....... 

What i mean is he will always bring quality to any team.........
would NOT like to see him playing against us, whatever the team

I wouldn't worry, can't see Stevie going anywhere any time soon unless he wins the league next season. Still two good seasons in him yet before he goes and kicks a ball about in the sun for a couple of years on a lot of dollars. He'll win the league here first though

[Babelcopter]

Dalglish, Barnes, and Souness eh? All great players, there's no doubt about that whatsoever. Souness is probably my 'favorite' player. Namely because he was simply the most horrible of horrible c*nts who'd literally physically beat a result of his opponents if he had to. But here's the thing. Kenny was a central forward attacking player in his pomp. Barnes was a wide attacking player in his pomp, and Souness a central midfielder in his. Gerrard has occupied all of those positions for us at various points of his career and never failed to excel in any of them. He was dynamite behind Torres. That partnership was lethal when injuries weren't thwarting them from playing together.

He also played out wide for virtually the entirety of Rafa's second season in charge and banged in a shit load of goals from that position too. And despite what the "Gerrard shouldn't play centrally" brigade might say, he has delivered countless massive performances for us in that position as well. Add to that the fact that he also played right back for us during extra time in Istanbul and completely nullified Milan's threat from that wing. Not only did he adapt seamlessly to that job that night, he delivered a performance that any right back would be proud of, including the Phil Neals of this world. I'm not necessarily saying that he is a better attacker than Kenny and a better winger than Barnes and a better central midfielder than Souness all rolled into one. But no one can say that Gerrard has ever failed in any of those positions. When you really think about it, you really do have to acknowledge that Gerrard is a footballing freak of nature that has consistently delivered for us in positions where the aforementioned 3 might have failed in. That's quiet a testament to the guys ability and the true extent of his ability as a footballer

Dalglish might beat him on certain attacking attributes, but when you lay their respective skill sets out wide and really compare them then it's quiet evident that Gerrard is the superior 'footballer'. Same with Barnes and Souness. Yeah, each of those two might beat him on certain attributes also, but when the comparison is one that's simply based on "footballer versus footballer" then no one can really touch Gerrard when it comes to being the single most complete player to ever play for Liverpool. You can argue the side debates about their number of winners medals or about them playing in different teams and era's all you like. But It doesn't really change their individual attributes as players. Yeah, sure, Gerrard probably lacks the silky skills of Digger, and probably wont go around breaking opponents jaws like Souness did, but what what he lacks in certain areas, he makes up for in absolute spades in others. Players rarely get the acclaim that they truly deserve until they retire IMO. Players like Zidane for example. He walked out on the game under a cloud. But now that he's not playing anymore I can't help but think "fuck, he's a loss. I actually miss watching him. What a fucking player he was". I think the same will happen with Gerrard. It will be after his retirement before people will really reflect objectively on just how good he really was and think "fuck, he really could pull off a host of things that others couldn't".

Nostalgia and sentiment can often make us look backwards when it comes to offering our praise and our acknowledgment of greatness. Everyone is guilty of that from time to time. The problem is though, if you do it too much, you'll fail to notice what's right in front of you. We're witnessing the twilight years of the career of the most complete player to ever play for Liverpool in Steven Gerrard. Is he the same player he was in his pomp? No. He's not. You wont see that Gerrard ever again. At least not consistently. But he's still capable of producing the impossible, albeit at a now slightly reduced frequency. Just enjoy and appreciate him while he's still playing because he's on the wind down now. You'll all miss him when he's gone. Don't say you won't, because you will

Fantastic post

[jckliew]

I wouldn't worry, can't see Stevie going anywhere any time soon unless he wins the league next season. Still two good seasons in him yet before he goes and kicks a ball about in the sun for a couple of years on a lot of dollars. He'll win the league here first though

 

[-Daws-]

Fantastic post

Echoed. I know of no better all round footballer at all.

[gritsvanilla]

There are probably quiet a few things that Souness could do in his prime that Gerrard can't do. I can think of a few right off the bat

But if you objectively listed the things that Gerrard can do that Souness couldn't, then I think you'll find that Gerrard's list would be longer

I wouldn't disagree Billy, it's just the OTT hyperbole of that particular post that got to me.

There's no doubt in my mind that Stevie is one of the greatest players to ever pull the jersey on, up there with Kenny, Souness and Barnesy and i agree with your post that as a complete footballer those three struggle to get near him, in their individual positions however i'd take all 3 over Stevie, Barnes in his pomp was a better winger/wide midfielder, Souness a better CM and Kenny was every bit as good as Stevie in the second striker role but had the added bonus of being probably the greatest team player to ever pull the shirt on.

Not in anyway knocking Stevie's ability but perhaps his sheer versatility and completeness as a footballer somewhat hindered him ever finding a position to really excel in although i think had he played behind Torres for a lot longer this would be a moot point, still it says a lot about his abilities that in spite of never really settling in one role for any length of time he is still amongst the finest players i've ever seen.

[elpistolero7]

One of the best posts I've ever read on Rawk billy. Fantastically well reasoned and well put mate.

[LFC Boy]

Really deserves it's own thread.

[subroc]

There is so much wrong with that post i really don't know where to begin. Just what have you seen of Souness because judging by that post you can't have seen a lot of him, Souness was a better tackler than Stevie, had better positional sense and imho was twice the Captain Stevie is, as a CM he had all the tools, he was truly one of the greatest CM's i've ever had the pleasure to witness, a fucking beast who as Billy pointed out could bully teams almost singlehandedly, oh and he was a great passer too. He's nowhere near Stevie as a complete footballer but as a CM he's twice the player, Carrick, Cleverley and co would not have had a look in against Souness regardless of who he was playing alongside, the man truly was a beast.

The suggestion that Graeme Souness could do nothing better than Stevie G is bollocks and could only come from someone who didn't see Souness in his pomp.

Gerrard isn't a CM though - he is more of a AM. Historical comparisons are dicey because the timesand understanding then were so different. Souness was indeed a great CM, but like Molby, he would have been a little less special today even as a CM due to his less than great pace. The game nowadays seem to be faster paced and requiring a great deal more fitness.

[subroc]

When you really think about it, you really do have to acknowledge that Gerrard is a footballing freak of nature that has consistently delivered for us in positions where the aforementioned 3 might have failed in. That's quiet a testament to the guys ability and the true extent of his ability as a footballer

Dalglish might beat him on certain attacking attributes, but when you lay their respective skill sets out wide and really compare them then it's quiet evident that Gerrard is the superior 'footballer'. Same with Barnes and Souness. Yeah, each of those two might beat him on certain attributes also, but when the comparison is one that's simply based on "footballer versus footballer" then no one can really touch Gerrard when it comes to being the single most complete player to ever play for Liverpool. You can argue the side debates about their number of winners medals or about them playing in different teams and era's all you like. But It doesn't really change their individual attributes as players. Yeah, sure, Gerrard probably lacks the silky skills of Digger, and probably wont go around breaking opponents jaws like Souness did, but what what he lacks in certain areas, he makes up for in absolute spades in others. Players rarely get the acclaim that they truly deserve until they retire IMO. Players like Zidane for example. He walked out on the game under a cloud. But now that he's not playing anymore I can't help but think "fuck, he's a loss. I actually miss watching him. What a fucking player he was". I think the same will happen with Gerrard. It will be after his retirement before people will really reflect objectively on just how good he really was and think "fuck, he really could pull off a host of things that others couldn't".

Nostalgia and sentiment can often make us look backwards when it comes to offering our praise and our acknowledgment of greatness. Everyone is guilty of that from time to time. The problem is though, if you do it too much, you'll fail to notice what's right in front of you. We're witnessing the twilight years of the career of the most complete player to ever play for Liverpool in Steven Gerrard. Is he the same player he was in his pomp? No. He's not. You wont see that Gerrard ever again. At least not consistently. But he's still capable of producing the impossible, albeit at a now slightly reduced frequency. Just enjoy and appreciate him while he's still playing because he's on the wind down now. You'll all miss him when he's gone. Don't say you won't, because you will

Hear, hear...

[PanchDeBurca]

Gerrard isn't a CM though - he is more of a AM. Historical comparisons are dicey because the timesand understanding then were so different. Souness was indeed a great CM, but like Molby, he would have been a little less special today even as a CM due to his less than great pace. The game nowadays seem to be faster paced and requiring a great deal more fitness.

Alonso is slow - hell i'd fancy my chances in a race with him, and i'm middle aged and well over weight - and Alonso is fantastic midfielder

You don't need pace to be a great midfielder - often the guys who don't have the pace in their legs have the pace in their heads and that is way more valuable

[Mutton Geoff]

in the end this was just one man's opinion who is talking about a mate and a footballer from the same era, as for is he the greatest well its subjective depends on your age and your viewpoint which is subject to your experience of watching this club be it short or long. He is certainly one of the greatest in the top 5, but i would personally have at least two above him, but that is a judgement based on seeing over 5 decades of Liverpool players and is simply my own personal viewpoint.

What i object to is detrimental comments about other players to try to put your viewpoint about Stevie over and maybe its the Sky wall to wall media effect, but the adoration of players is way OTT compared to the old days. We all had favourites but we still appreciated the other players abilities as well, you could say for every Digger there was a Beardsley or Houghton to admire as well.

The problem now i find and this colours any discussion about Gerrard, is fans who cannot see past him for their heroes and treat him like some Icon to worship at his altar. This leads to them denegrating other players from the past and his team mates, such as the ludicrous comments on Souness from someone who has clearly never seen him play, and the old he carried the team on his back rubbish.

As i said he is in the top 5 and the greatest player for his generation, as for best ever well that is a circular debate with no resolution whatsoever.

[Halcyon Lissome]

There is so much wrong with that post i really don't know where to begin. Just what have you seen of Souness because judging by that post you can't have seen a lot of him, Souness was a better tackler than Stevie, had better positional sense and imho was twice the Captain Stevie is, as a CM he had all the tools, he was truly one of the greatest CM's i've ever had the pleasure to witness, a fucking beast who as Billy pointed out could bully teams almost singlehandedly, oh and he was a great passer too. He's nowhere near Stevie as a complete footballer but as a CM he's twice the player, Carrick, Cleverley and co would not have had a look in against Souness regardless of who he was playing alongside, the man truly was a beast.

The suggestion that Graeme Souness could do nothing better than Stevie G is bollocks and could only come from someone who didn't see Souness in his pomp.

As I said, I've seen tapes and thats it. But, even then, I disagree from what I've seen which is admittedly not as much as yourself.

When you talk about tackles, you have to understand; 3 quarters of Souness' tackles would probably be illegal these days. You have to be much more skilled in terms of timing to tackle a player these days. It is almost a different sport.

Passer, not in the league of Gerrard...absolutely no way. Gerrard is one of the best, regardless of what standard you use. You want a holding midfielder to spread play and dictate like Alonso, Gerrard is your man. You want an attacking midfielder to create chance after chance and drive forward at the opposition like a Kaka, Gerrard is your man. And he does it to a world class level regardless which position he is being asked to play. I've heard a lot about Souness being a fantastic passer, not just an enforcer, but I don't think I (or anyone has) would put him on the same level of the best passers in his era.

Captaincy, twice as good as Gerrard? You can't measure this, so its arbitrary either way...but I can't take this one seriously. Gerrard is up there with the greatest captains of his era...in the world. Gerrard's name is synonymous with Liverpool and Leadership in world football. You have players all over the world idolise him because of how he was on the pitch. I remember Kaka saying that Gerrard was the complete, modern, footballer who had the heart of a lion - this coming from a Fifa World player of the year, completely in awe of our captain.

Maybe it comes across bad, but what I meant is that there are many things Souness excels at, but Gerrard is at a comparable level; whereas Gerrard excels at things that Souness can't really get near. I don't think there is one thing Souness is good at, where Gerrard is left in the distance. That's why as a straight comparison I can't abide by Gerrard getting the shorter end of the stick in this comparison. With Kenny and Digger, or Rush, the comparisons are more difficult; with this one I think it is a bit more straightforward when you are talking about ability.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Gerrard isn't a CM though - he is more of a AM. Historical comparisons are dicey because the timesand understanding then were so different. Souness was indeed a great CM, but like Molby, he would have been a little less special today even as a CM due to his less than great pace. The game nowadays seem to be faster paced and requiring a great deal more fitness.

Gerrard is a CM. In fact, he's played more of his career as a CM (or a DM) than an AM.

[bigbear]

There is so much wrong with that post i really don't know where to begin. Just what have you seen of Souness because judging by that post you can't have seen a lot of him, Souness was a better tackler than Stevie, had better positional sense and imho was twice the Captain Stevie is, as a CM he had all the tools, he was truly one of the greatest CM's i've ever had the pleasure to witness, a fucking beast who as Billy pointed out could bully teams almost singlehandedly, oh and he was a great passer too. He's nowhere near Stevie as a complete footballer but as a CM he's twice the player, Carrick, Cleverley and co would not have had a look in against Souness regardless of who he was playing alongside, the man truly was a beast.

The suggestion that Graeme Souness could do nothing better than Stevie G is bollocks and could only come from someone who didn't see Souness in his pomp.

Is correct.

Souness ran games. No matter where he was he was never not the main player on the pitch.

European Cup Final in Rome - he ran it. Milk Cup Final replay at Maine Rd v a strong Everton - he ran it. He made games be played at the pace he wanted them to be and that takes a very special footballer.

[bigbear]

As I said, I've seen tapes and thats it. But, even then, I disagree from what I've seen which is admittedly not as much as yourself.

When you talk about tackles, you have to understand; 3 quarters of Souness' tackles would probably be illegal these days. You have to be much more skilled in terms of timing to tackle a player these days. It is almost a different sport.

Passer, not in the league of Gerrard...absolutely no way. Gerrard is one of the best, regardless of what standard you use. You want a holding midfielder to spread play and dictate like Alonso, Gerrard is your man. You want an attacking midfielder to create chance after chance and drive forward at the opposition like a Kaka, Gerrard is your man. And he does it to a world class level regardless which position he is being asked to play. I've heard a lot about Souness being a fantastic passer, not just an enforcer, but I don't think I (or anyone has) would put him on the same level of the best passers in his era.

Captaincy, twice as good as Gerrard? You can't measure this, so its arbitrary either way...but I can't take this one seriously. Gerrard is up there with the greatest captains of his era...in the world. Gerrard's name is synonymous with Liverpool and Leadership in world football. You have players all over the world idolise him because of how he was on the pitch. I remember Kaka saying that Gerrard was the complete, modern, footballer who had the heart of a lion - this coming from a Fifa World player of the year, completely in awe of our captain.

Maybe it comes across bad, but what I meant is that there are many things Souness excels at, but Gerrard is at a comparable level; whereas Gerrard excels at things that Souness can't really get near. I don't think there is one thing Souness is good at, where Gerrard is left in the distance. That's why as a straight comparison I can't abide by Gerrard getting the shorter end of the stick in this comparison. With Kenny and Digger, or Rush, the comparisons are more difficult; with this one I think it is a bit more straightforward when you are talking about ability.

but you never saw Souness play or had that confidence we had when he was in the red shirt.

His passing was superb, he just slid ball after ball in for Rushie. His shooting was fantastic, he was strong and brave as they come too. As for saying his tackling would have got him sent off now, well yes some of it would but then I also watched the young Gerrard play and his tackling when he first started would be a red card every second game now too. Great players adjust.

The biggest thing Souness had over Gerrard (and I'm not saying he is better) is that he could run a game, slow it down, quicken it up, take the sting out much like Alonso to that extent which is not something that Stevie has done as much as he has spent more of his career being Terry Mac than Graeme. I'm not saying Stevie can't do that as he did it last Saturday but Souness was better at controlling a game than Gerrard ever has been. Gerrard is often the end product as opposed to the organiser.

[Halcyon Lissome]

but you never saw Souness play or had that confidence we had when he was in the red shirt.
His passing was superb, he just slid ball after ball in for Rushie. His shooting was fantastic, he was strong and brave as they come too. As for saying his tackling would have got him sent off now, well yes some of it would but then I also watched the young Gerrard play and his tackling when he first started would be a red card every second game now too. Great players adjust.

I've seen tapes of Souness and passing skill is not as hard to spot really. There are things which need context - i.e. bravery, tactics, etc - but the skill to pass a ball is evident. And Souness wasn't in the same league as Gerrard. As I said, I would say Gerrard is as good of a passer as any player in the world during his career. Would you say the same same of Souness when you compare him to Maradona, Platini, Zico, etc?

Souness' passing was more similar to a Keane - who is also lauded as an underrated passer. But Keane, too, was never amongst the best passers in the world.

For tackling, Gerrard had to adjust, Souness didn't; which makes the comparison in terms of tackles hard to make. In Gerrard's case it was more youthful exuberance...he DID get sent off for those tackles. Many of those wouldn't have incurred the same in Souness' era. What constitutes a good tackle then and now is so different; where strong tackles got applause, many of Souness' would get condemnation and bans.

The biggest thing Souness had over Gerrard (and I'm not saying he is better) is that he could run a game, slow it down, quicken it up, take the sting out much like Alonso to that extent which is not something that Stevie has done as much as he has spent more of his career being Terry Mac than Graeme. I'm not saying Stevie can't do that as he did it last Saturday but Souness was better at controlling a game than Gerrard ever has been. Gerrard is often the end product as opposed to the organiser.

I take this point, but I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that Souness imposed himself physically as much as technically. The tactics of the time were less midfield-centric than today. In Gerrard's case he could never just be that dictator in midfield, because we lacked in many other places. He had to be the dictator in midfield, and the main playmaker, and one of the main goal-scoring threats. Suffice to say, I think he was stretched too thin, rather than lacking in ability to run a game - of which he has all the attributes to do it.

[liverpooll]

The problem now i find and this colours any discussion about Gerrard, is fans who cannot see past him for their heroes and treat him like some Icon to worship at his altar.

Do not know where to start. But anyways, I really think that the main issue about the so called criticism about Gerrard is how people blame him. Irrespective of how we lose/draw the game, there will be many who will simply blame it on Gerrard for not doing "enough". And then there is the classic defense of some other players.Like Player X (eg. Lucas) looked bad because Gerrard was next to him when really it could have been the other way around where Gerrard looked/played bad because of Lucas. A lot of long debate on this topic is spend on showing how Gerrard is the weakness/problem for everything when really it is and never has been case.

It is fair to say if a player like Henderson was having a season like Gerrard this year, he would be getting high reviews and probably be favorite for player of the year. But just because he is Gerrard, it's different standards for him. It's perhaps you who cannot look beyond the history and so expect Gerrard to do just about everything and carry us every game like he is done regularly in the past.

[bigbear]

I've seen tapes of Souness and passing skill is not as hard to spot really. There are things which need context - i.e. bravery, tactics, etc - but the skill to pass a ball is evident. And Souness wasn't in the same league as Gerrard. As I said, I would say Gerrard is as good of a passer as any player in the world during his career. Would you say the same same of Souness when you compare him to Maradona, Platini, Zico, etc?

Souness' passing was more similar to a Keane - who is also lauded as an underrated passer. But Keane, too, was never amongst the best passers in the world.

For tackling, Gerrard had to adjust, Souness didn't; which makes the comparison in terms of tackles hard to make. In Gerrard's case it was more youthful exuberance...he DID get sent off for those tackles. Many of those wouldn't have incurred the same in Souness' era. What constitutes a good tackle then and now is so different; where strong tackles got applause, many of Souness' would get condemnation and bans.

I take this point, but I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that Souness imposed himself physically as much as technically. The tactics of the time were less midfield-centric than today. In Gerrard's case he could never just be that dictator in midfield, because we lacked in many other places. He had to be the dictator in midfield, and the main playmaker, and one of the main goal-scoring threats. Suffice to say, I think he was stretched too thin, rather than lacking in ability to run a game - of which he has all the attributes to do it.

Souness's passing was much better than Keane's mate. Souness was one of the best passers of the ball around. Don't forget he played and ran a side that won the European Cup 3 times in that era when Platini was playing. Platini was a great player but much more forward thinking in his position.

[Roger Federer]

I really wish I had seen Souness week in, week out. Only watched the finals that Bigbear talks about above, and a few clips here and there, but it's not enough. But everything I've read about him, makes him sound like my kind of footballer. Souness obviously were tougher than everyone else, but it seems that, outside of those who saw him regularly, that nasty streak is all that is remembered today. But when 'older' Liverpool supporters talk about him, his passing, the tempo of it and the control he had over games stands out even more than his toughness. It sounds like he should be mentioned just as much, if not more, in the company of players like Rijkaard, Redondo and Xabi Alonso, rather than the typical British hard-tackling midfielders that he is usual compared with.

[Mutton Geoff]

Do not know where to start. But anyways, I really think that the main issue about the so called criticism about Gerrard is how people blame him. Irrespective of how we lose/draw the game, there will be many who will simply blame it on Gerrard for not doing "enough". And then there is the classic defense of some other players.Like Player X (eg. Lucas) looked bad because Gerrard was next to him when really it could have been the other way around where Gerrard looked/played bad because of Lucas. A lot of long debate on this topic is spend on showing how Gerrard is the weakness/problem for everything when really it is and never has been case.

It is fair to say if a player like Henderson was having a season like Gerrard this year, he would be getting high reviews and probably be favorite for player of the year. But just because he is Gerrard, it's different standards for him. It's perhaps you who cannot look beyond the history and so expect Gerrard to do just about everything and carry us every game like he is done regularly in the past.

does this even equate to what i posted no! but nice soapbox post from you completely unrelated to the discussion, you are right you didnt know where to start and should not have bothered in my opinion.
However your post illustrates this theory that for you only one man matters in the team. The point was people discounting previous legends and his team mates during his career to proclaim their adoration of Gerrard.
Nobody had a negative  point about him just some posters unreal evaluation of for them this godlike footballer, which included the lad who lives in this thread.

[LucasLeiva]

Greatest player ever to play for Liverpool. Carried a poor(ish) team for years and years. And when he finally got a decent player to link up with in Torres... well look how lethal that was. All the others in the top 5 or so played with a golden generation around them, Stevie has mostly had players like Baros and Ciise to aim at. The most all-round complete footballer we've ever had. He's still phenomenal to watch, he sprays passes across the pitch with amazing accuracy and ease. He still also creates a massive amount of chances for his team mates and he's top assister in the prem.

[Yorkykopite]

I've seen tapes of Souness and passing skill is not as hard to spot really. There are things which need context - i.e. bravery, tactics, etc - but the skill to pass a ball is evident. And Souness wasn't in the same league as Gerrard. As I said, I would say Gerrard is as good of a passer as any player in the world during his career. Would you say the same same of Souness when you compare him to Maradona, Platini, Zico, etc?

Souness' passing was more similar to a Keane - who is also lauded as an underrated passer.

I realise I'm at a slight disadvantage here because I saw a lot of Souness in the flesh and am therefore not confined to the odd tape here and there. But Souness was a better passer of the ball than Gerrard. He wasn't nearly as dynamic, he couldn't do many of the things that Stevie does, but he was quicker to release the ball, used every bit of the boot to do it, and had a wider menu of passes than any other player I've ever seen at Anfield except Alonso. To see Souness poised over a ball was thing of joy in itself. He was exceptionally balanced (like Litmanen) and it was very hard to tell which way he was going to move with it. In other words he was in absolute command of the thing.

We always knew he was good. A better passer than Glen Hoddle and obviously much harder. It was the fact that he was much harder that prevented many pundits from seeing how graceful he was as a footballer. Then as now it was difficult for English football commentators to understand that a player could be both skilful and fierce at the same time. I recall a game at White Hart Lane where it seemed Souness only played with the outside of the boot - as if he was proving a point about who had genuine finesse and who didn't. Probably that's not on tape, sorry. But it was indicative of the arrogance of the man. And let's face it, you can't exist in a permanent state of arrogance - as Souness did - without a huge reservoir of skills to draw on. There's plenty of opponents who would have liked to have stopped him, by foul means as well as fair. I can't think of one who did.

The crowning achievement was when he came up against Falcao and Cerezo in Rome. Thanks to the '82 World Cup the whole world knew how awesome that central midfield pair were, whereas Souness was relatively unknown outside Britain. What was remarkable about that Final was Souey's effortless command of the centre of the park. It wasn't even done through intimidation. It was the fact that he had the skills and aura to impose himself on his illustrious opponents - in their own back yard too. I remember reading an interview with Cerezo later where he talked about the frustration of not being able to get the ball off Souness. I was remarkably relaxed watching that Final and the main reason was Souness. Him being there, strutting and orchestrating, meant we were better than them.

I love Gerrard. He's up there with Kenny for me. But as a player who dictates the game through passing it's hard to look past Souness. Alonso comes very near. Jan Molby isn't too far behind. But Souness was king.

[redmark]

I've seen tapes of Souness and passing skill is not as hard to spot really. There are things which need context - i.e. bravery, tactics, etc - but the skill to pass a ball is evident. And Souness wasn't in the same league as Gerrard. As I said, I would say Gerrard is as good of a passer as any player in the world during his career. Would you say the same same of Souness when you compare him to Maradona, Platini, Zico, etc?

Souness' passing was more similar to a Keane - who is also lauded as an underrated passer. But Keane, too, was never amongst the best passers in the world.

I'm in agreement with your general point - that Gerrard is closer to Souness on Souness's strengths, than vice versa.

But Souness was an extraordinary passer of the ball, far superior to Keane. Probably still just shy of Gerrard, but barely. This is not a weakness.

[redmark]

We always knew he was good. A better passer than Glen Hoddle and obviously much harder. It was the fact that he was much harder that prevented many pundits from seeing how graceful he was as a footballer.

Absolutely true.

[Eeyore]

I realise I'm at a slight disadvantage here because I saw a lot of Souness in the flesh and am therefore not confined to the odd tape here and there. But Souness was a better passer of the ball than Gerrard. He wasn't nearly as dynamic, he couldn't do many of the things that Stevie does, but he was quicker to release the ball, used every bit of the boot to do it, and had a wider menu of passes than any other player I've ever seen at Anfield except Alonso. To see Souness poised over a ball was thing of joy in itself. He was exceptionally balanced (like Litmanen) and it was very hard to tell which way he was going to move with it. In other words he was in absolute command of the thing.

We always knew he was good. A better passer than Glen Hoddle and obviously much harder. It was the fact that he was much harder that prevented many pundits from seeing how graceful he was as a footballer. Then as now it was difficult for English football commentators to understand that a player could be both skilful and fierce at the same time. I recall a game at White Hart Lane where it seemed Souness only played with the outside of the boot - as if he was proving a point about who had genuine finesse and who didn't. Probably that's not on tape, sorry. But it was indicative of the arrogance of the man. And let's face it, you can't exist in a permanent state of arrogance - as Souness did - without a huge reservoir of skills to draw on. There's plenty of opponents who would have liked to have stopped him, by foul means as well as fair. I can't think of one who did.

The crowning achievement was when he came up against Falcao and Cerezo in Rome. Thanks to the '82 World Cup the whole world knew how awesome that central midfield pair were, whereas Souness was relatively unknown outside Britain. What was remarkable about that Final was Souey's effortless command of the centre of the park. It wasn't even done through intimidation. It was the fact that he had the skills and aura to impose himself on his illustrious opponents - in their own back yard too. I remember reading an interview with Cerezo later where he talked about the frustration of not being able to get the ball off Souness. I was remarkably relaxed watching that Final and the main reason was Souness. Him being there, strutting and orchestrating, meant we were better than them.

I love Gerrard. He's up there with Kenny for me. But as a player who dictates the game through passing it's hard to look past Souness. Alonso comes very near. Jan Molby isn't too far behind. But Souness was king.

For modern fans I would say take Roy Keane's aggression, Scholes ability to retain possession and control the tempo of a game at his peak and multiply by about five and you would be getting somewhere close to Souness. The iron fist in a velvet glove, a player who could win the battle regardless of who he was up against combined with the ability to play the right pass ad infinitum.

Souness and Gerrard in the same side would of been something special.

[bigbear]

I'm in agreement with your general point - that Gerrard is closer to Souness on Souness's strengths, than vice versa.

But Souness was an extraordinary passer of the ball, far superior to Keane. Probably still just shy of Gerrard, but barely. This is not a weakness.

I think it's difficult to directly compare the passing of the two because of the teams they played in. Souness was I'd say much more consistent in his passing and didn't have the need or maybe see the need to hit 50 yard passes out to the wing because the team he played in  dominated games in tighter areas.

Souey's passing was quality though, the whole side would just fizz it about one touch over 20/30 yards with him directing play. He could play one touch to keep a high tempo,  but he could slow a game down in an very non-British way too, something that the likes Bryan Robson who was feted in the time could not really do although he was a good player.

Souness would play it round the corner to Kenny blindfold into feet or chip into Terry Mac or my abiding memory of sliding Rushie in time after time or he would just link the play up with good retentive passing of any variety you would want. I'd say on reflection he didn't hit as many amazing passes as Stevie because he didn't need to but his passing was more consistent and was done in exactly the right way to win that particular game.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Ok lads, I take your points. Thanks for taking the time to post your explanations. I concede to your superior knowledge on Souness and admit I may be underrating him. Makes me feel like I've missed a greater player than I've come to believe.

[keyo]

As I said, I've seen tapes and thats it. But, even then, I disagree from what I've seen which is admittedly not as much as yourself.

When you talk about tackles, you have to understand; 3 quarters of Souness' tackles would probably be illegal these days. You have to be much more skilled in terms of timing to tackle a player these days. It is almost a different sport.

Passer, not in the league of Gerrard...absolutely no way. Gerrard is one of the best, regardless of what standard you use. You want a holding midfielder to spread play and dictate like Alonso, Gerrard is your man. You want an attacking midfielder to create chance after chance and drive forward at the opposition like a Kaka, Gerrard is your man. And he does it to a world class level regardless which position he is being asked to play. I've heard a lot about Souness being a fantastic passer, not just an enforcer, but I don't think I (or anyone has) would put him on the same level of the best passers in his era.

Captaincy, twice as good as Gerrard? You can't measure this, so its arbitrary either way...but I can't take this one seriously. Gerrard is up there with the greatest captains of his era...in the world. Gerrard's name is synonymous with Liverpool and Leadership in world football. You have players all over the world idolise him because of how he was on the pitch. I remember Kaka saying that Gerrard was the complete, modern, footballer who had the heart of a lion - this coming from a Fifa World player of the year, completely in awe of our captain.

Maybe it comes across bad, but what I meant is that there are many things Souness excels at, but Gerrard is at a comparable level; whereas Gerrard excels at things that Souness can't really get near. I don't think there is one thing Souness is good at, where Gerrard is left in the distance. That's why as a straight comparison I can't abide by Gerrard getting the shorter end of the stick in this comparison. With Kenny and Digger, or Rush, the comparisons are more difficult; with this one I think it is a bit more straightforward when you are talking about ability.

it is hard to make comparisons with bygone eras....you get to see huge amounts of football these days, whereas what you saw of players in the past is so little in comparison, the game changes on a regular basis, but players play in the age they were in .....souness was a fine footballer, passing wise one of the best around, and his tackling was - when with us - actually quite reasonable, and certainly not the ridiculous levels it got to in scotland, it was a product of its time and he was smart enough to know what he could and couldn't do, and cute enough not to get caught, and although not pacey, was mobile enough to get around the pitch when necessary and possessed excellent positional and tactical sense.....remember souness harnessed and lead some of the finest football teams we will ever see

different ages make comparisons moot......just be thankful that we have been lucky enough to have both these players

for the record, gerrard is as good a player as i have seen.....up there with dalglish and barnes.....who is better?  who knows, and quite frankly who cares (except when you have had a few pints down the local or after the match)

[Neil D]

The only time I have ever genuniely thought that the world's best player was playing for us, was John Barnes between August 87 and September 91 (when he got crippled at man city).

He was without doubt the best player in the country for those four years, I don't think Gerrard has ever been considered that.

Gerrard was undoubtedly considered the best player in the country in 2005-06 I'd say.

Gerrard is a CM. In fact, he's played more of his career as a CM (or a DM) than an AM.

I'm not sure about that, he played mainly as an AM (either on the right wing or at the head of a midfield three behind a striker) from 2005 to 2011 under Rafa.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Gerrard was undoubtedly considered the best player in the country in 2005-06 I'd say.

I'm not sure about that, he played mainly as an AM (either on the right wing or at the head of a midfield three behind a striker) from 2005 to 2011 under Rafa.

In Rafa's 1st season he was a CM. 2nd an RM. 3rd he shifted between AM and CM, depending when Masch would play. The 2 years after he was an AM. Rafa's last season Gerrard was a AM/CM again depending when Lucas and Masch were paired. And before Rafa and after Rafa he was mostly a CM. I'd say cumulatively Gerrard has played 3-4 years as an AM, the rest primarily as a CM/DM.

[b_joseph]

Gerrard was undoubtedly considered the best player in the country in 2005-06 I'd say.

03/04 as well when Ferguson was kissing his arse about how he is the most influential player in the league. He wasnt far off in 08/09 also.

He's had a strange career because he has always been such a force...but very rarely played in one area for longer than a season or two. Whether he played at full back or right wing of DM for Ged...CM/AM/RW/LW for Rafa.

Never seen a player play so many positions and play them all at a high level.

I dont know if he is our best ever but he is the best I have seen ( 1992 onwards ). Hopefully 20 years from now, there will be 2 or 3 more than can rival Gerrard.

[bigbear]

Ok lads, I take your points. Thanks for taking the time to post your explanations. I concede to your superior knowledge on Souness and admit I may be underrating him. Makes me feel like I've missed a greater player than I've come to believe.

You did miss something special mate but then I missed Billy Liddell and Roger Hunt but my dad saw them, your age group will see more special players (hopefully) after my era has gone.

[B0151?]

Gerrard will always be the best player I've seen for Liverpool I feel. Billy summed it up for me.

[Maggie May]

it is hard to make comparisons with bygone eras....you get to see huge amounts of football these days, whereas what you saw of players in the past is so little in comparison, the game changes on a regular basis, but players play in the age they were in .....souness was a fine footballer, passing wise one of the best around, and his tackling was - when with us - actually quite reasonable, and certainly not the ridiculous levels it got to in scotland, it was a product of its time and he was smart enough to know what he could and couldn't do, and cute enough not to get caught, and although not pacey, was mobile enough to get around the pitch when necessary and possessed excellent positional and tactical sense.....remember souness harnessed and lead some of the finest football teams we will ever see

different ages make comparisons moot......just be thankful that we have been lucky enough to have both these players

for the record, gerrard is as good a player as i have seen.....up there with dalglish and barnes.....who is better?  who knows, and quite frankly who cares (except when you have had a few pints down the local or after the match)

I totally agree with this post.  Such a huge range of excellent players over many years,and its very hard to judge from clips when compared with seeing players in the flesh.  I was lucky enough to see King Billy himself play (and Sir Stan on one occasion when my Dad took me to Goodison specially to see him), and I consider myself hugely fortunate to have seen all the greats in their pomp.  And I've thought a great deal about who, taking everything into account, is the best, of all Liverpool players I have seen, and I've no idea, nor do I care, who is the best.  I just consider myself and us all, to have seen throughout all the years, the most magnificent collection of players to ever grace a football pitch. 

[Cid]

does this even equate to what i posted no! but nice soapbox post from you completely unrelated to the discussion, you are right you didnt know where to start and should not have bothered in my opinion.
However your post illustrates this theory that for you only one man matters in the team. The point was people discounting previous legends and his team mates during his career to proclaim their adoration of Gerrard.
Nobody had a negative  point about him just some posters unreal evaluation of for them this godlike footballer, which included the lad who lives in this thread.

That's a mighty big chip on your shoulder there.  I'll never understand why some people dislike the fact that fans adore Gerrard.  He has been the very heart of our team for almost his entire career and has earned his status as a true legend.  Not only is he the best player to ever don the shirt, he's one of the finest players our country has ever produced.  The fact this debate even occurs should tell you what Gerrard is.  The ONLY Liverpool legend of the modern era.  Is it any surprise we love him?  Did you love Kenny any less?

And as for the 'godlike footballer bit', fuck me I'd love to see what it tales to impress you.  Gerrard has played alongside the likes of Torres, Alonso, Masch, Owen, Lampard, Beckham, Rooney. All players who have been lauded as world class, yet Gerrard outshined them, Gerrard outlasted them and even now, as he slows down, through.inevitable age..he is our most important player behind Suarez.


Maybe you have a problem with people who adore Gerrard. Quite frankly I have a problem with people who don't.

[Yorkykopite]

I agree with that Maggie. Measuring footballers - or any sportsmen and women - who span different eras is probably impossible to do in any fair way. And yet...

...the temptations are too great to resist. 

It's part of the very language of sport to do so. When we describe the beauty of Steven Gerrard the footballer the words don't always come. Whether we like it or not to get some measure of the man we start reaching for comparisons with other giants who've played for Liverpool. And the arguments begin...

[Sangria]

I agree with that Maggie. Measuring footballers - or any sportsmen and women - who span different eras is probably impossible to do in any fair way. And yet...

...the temptations are too great to resist. 

I think it's fair to say that Gerrard is a taller footballer than Dalglish ever was.