Author Topic: Slowly losing patience ?  (Read 16256 times)

Offline Sat1

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2009, 11:55:30 pm »
Rafa's been here a while, but considering Mancs and Chelseas finances he deserves time to build a team to challenge. However, he should be held accountable for constantly playing a player who is talent wise Sunday league standard, Kuyt!! i feel let down im not earning a mint coz this fella is no footballer.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2009, 11:59:16 pm »
Great post - and it's important to remember the biggest factor here..

link to my post last week which is surely relevant.... http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=237999.0

I think for success in the long term you need to have the resources to match your ambition, however you can build something over the long term which can mitigate a lack of money if you have patience. In the short term, and for short term success, money buys you happiness. It also buys you a hangover when things turn sour and there's no more money to be had. Souness put me off the 'spend your way to success' route. Taggart has been able to buy selectively and buy the best with his money (still expensive but they've got the cash) while Mourinho is a tart. He'll build you a team of players at the peak of their abilities for a few hundred million, give you two or three seasons of success and then fuck off when the money isn't there any more and things are looking likely to slide.
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Offline watyeonaboot

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #122 on: March 1, 2009, 12:00:39 am »
The principles of building firm foundations at a football club have not moved on. Pop over to the Level 3 thread in Opinion for some excellent posts on football philosophy and how it relates to what Rafa is trying to build. Some truths remain constant. If there is a large gap between you and your opponents, you need time to catch up. It's a truth which holds true in life as well as football.

The only thing that has changed is fans being willing to swallow a diet of media manipulated half-truths focused on the short-term picture. We used to pride ourselves on being able to analyse a match, judge a player. It's obvious many of us can't any more.

Perhaps this is a result of many of us not being able to get to games and so being forced to rely on edited highlights packages which may or may not show the real picture of the match events. Perhaps this is a result of a lack of critical and independant thinking. Perhaps it's a result of a general slide in education standards judging by the illiterate text speak musings one sees posted all too frequently.

Modern football has increased the gap between the haves and the have-nots. We fell behind our traditional main rivals due to a combination of a horrific psychological blow to our club and a manager who was not fit for the job. We had a long way to catchup and every time we came close, our rivals took another step forward by innovating ways to increase their spending power to maintain and occasionally further increase their lead.

In theory then, should not modern football actually require longer to achieve success? Should not we give managers more time to implement structures which will sustain drives for success? Or are we now goldfish blinking at every new distraction which flashes past our glass bubble?

We are kidding ourselves if we think we have given the title a real challenge this year. Out of it by mid Feb and theres still 3 months of the season to go. We only got this far with a combination of lucky wins and Chelsea and the Arse having one of their worst seasons in recent memory.

Sorta stuck in a halfway house in these posts. Cos after all, we're top of the Big Four League this season - and yet been so dreadful against pretty much the rest of the league.

As for anyone slagging off Rafa fuck off and support Chelsea you horrible c*nts


Offline watyeonaboot

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #123 on: March 1, 2009, 12:02:32 am »
I think for success in the long term you need to have the resources to match your ambition, however you can build something over the long term which can mitigate a lack of money if you have patience. In the short term, and for short term success, money buys you happiness. It also buys you a hangover when things turn sour and there's no more money to be had. Souness put me off the 'spend your way to success' route. Taggart has been able to buy selectively and buy the best with his money (still expensive but they've got the cash) while Mourinho is a tart. He'll build you a team of players at the peak of their abilities for a few hundred million, give you two or three seasons of success and then fuck off when the money isn't there any more and things are looking likely to slide.

Zeb, I admire your reasoned approach but when you look at the likes of Johnny Evans can't help feeling blaming our shortcomings on money seems a little wide of the mark.

As for anyone slagging off Rafa fuck off and support Chelsea you horrible c*nts


Offline TSC

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #124 on: March 1, 2009, 12:06:30 am »
The principles of building firm foundations at a football club have not moved on. Pop over to the Level 3 thread in Opinion for some excellent posts on football philosophy and how it relates to what Rafa is trying to build. Some truths remain constant. If there is a large gap between you and your opponents, you need time to catch up. It's a truth which holds true in life as well as football.

The only thing that has changed is fans being willing to swallow a diet of media manipulated half-truths focused on the short-term picture. We used to pride ourselves on being able to analyse a match, judge a player. It's obvious many of us can't any more.

Perhaps this is a result of many of us not being able to get to games and so being forced to rely on edited highlights packages which may or may not show the real picture of the match events. Perhaps this is a result of a lack of critical and independant thinking. Perhaps it's a result of a general slide in education standards judging by the illiterate text speak musings one sees posted all too frequently.

Modern football has increased the gap between the haves and the have-nots. We fell behind our traditional main rivals due to a combination of a horrific psychological blow to our club and a manager who was not fit for the job. We had a long way to catchup and every time we came close, our rivals took another step forward by innovating ways to increase their spending power to maintain and occasionally further increase their lead.

In theory then, should not modern football actually require longer to achieve success? Should not we give managers more time to implement structures which will sustain drives for success? Or are we now goldfish blinking at every new distraction which flashes past our glass bubble?

Some good stuff inthe level 3 thread granted.  However some nonsense as well.  And it's been ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) on other well known LFC sites.

How much time to catch up though?  This is a bit of a moot point in my book as I don't think currently we've the resources to help him.  However previously we did.  Do you hand on heart think we're playing better than what we did 3 yrs ago?

By the way the media has not clouded my opinion.  I've been a season ticket holder for years and have been going to games since late 70's as a kid.  I make my own judgement.

I think in first couple of years Rafa done excellently.  i think we've stood fairly static last couple of years, and this is based on going to games.

Anyway the bigger point for me is that the whole club is in a mess and needs a complete overhaul and new owners.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #125 on: March 1, 2009, 12:07:23 am »
Zeb, I admire your reasoned approach but when you look at the likes of Johnny Evans can't help feeling blaming our shortcomings on money seems a little wide of the mark.

For sure, but that kind of youth policy takes many, many years to show results. That's what I meant by it mitigating a lack of money with patience. The Mancs have it both ways right now. They can go out and buy the best while also bringing through decent youth to pad out the squad when required.

Hence why I think Rafa's struggle over the academy and youth set-up is so important. I think he's desperate to bring through good youth players, local and foreign so that the financial aspect doesn't become so important for squad players. I know Degs and other feel he isn't bringing current fringe first team youth players quickly enough, and I respect that view, but I don't think the cauldron atmosphere right now is the right time for mass influxes of youth. We've seen Insua. We're starting to see N'Gog. Darby on the bench today... 
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Offline Derzyjudek

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #126 on: March 1, 2009, 12:10:18 am »
For sure, but that kind of youth policy takes many, many years to show results. That's what I meant by it mitigating a lack of money with patience. The Mancs have it both ways right now. They can go out and buy the best while also bringing through decent youth to pad out the squad when required.

Hence why I think Rafa's struggle over the academy and youth set-up is so important. I think he's desperate to bring through good youth players, local and foreign so that the financial aspect doesn't become so important for squad players. I know Degs and other feel he isn't bringing current fringe first team youth players quickly enough, and I respect that view, but I don't think the cauldron atmosphere right now is the right time for mass influxes of youth. We've seen Insua. We're starting to see N'Gog. Darby on the bench today... 

something needs to change at the academy,the money we have thrown at that...it has been a complete failure.
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Offline watyeonaboot

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #127 on: March 1, 2009, 12:10:38 am »
But with fans' impatience when will it ever be? Realistically you can't expect the likes of Darby to fulfil his promise in a few Carling Cup games, he needs to be thrown in when we're playing West Ham away without a recognised right back. And what's happened to Insua for that matter, has he just faded from view as the pressure to win every game mounts?

As for anyone slagging off Rafa fuck off and support Chelsea you horrible c*nts


Offline TSC

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #128 on: March 1, 2009, 12:11:38 am »
And what's happened to Insua for that matter, has he just faded from view as the pressure to win every game mounts?

That's a good point actually.  Where the fuck is he?

Offline Zeb

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #129 on: March 1, 2009, 12:17:20 am »
Some good stuff inthe level 3 thread granted.  However some nonsense as well.  And it's been ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) on other well known LFC sites.

How much time to catch up though?  This is a bit of a moot point in my book as I don't think currently we've the resources to help him.  However previously we did.  Do you hand on heart think we're playing better than what we did 3 yrs ago?

By the way the media has not clouded my opinion.  I've been a season ticket holder for years and have been going to games since late 70's as a kid.  I make my own judgement.

I think in first couple of years Rafa done excellently.  i think we've stood fairly static last couple of years, and this is based on going to games.

Anyway the bigger point for me is that the whole club is in a mess and needs a complete overhaul and new owners.

Any criticism in that post was at a wide target TSC. Your balanced criticisms are ones I can respect and your perspective is one I can appreciate while disagreeing with.

And you're right about the club ownership. We're trying to run a title bid while the club is falling apart internally.

Hand on heart? Overall, I think we are more efficient. ;) And that has come by playing a much more measured form of football. Rafa's had to instill that discipline into the team to make us harder to beat. Better football has certainly been evident at times. I want us to open up our game more, but I appreciate that right now Rafa can't afford to take that risk from the start as often as we'd like.

How much time? I wouldn't like to guess. I'm judging it season by season. If I see progress, then I'm happy. If I see regression overall in a season, then I'm going to be alarmed. Two seasons and I'll start thinking it's the end of the road. So far I've seen slow and gradual but effective progression in the league. And so much depends on the suits being able to sign the cheques he writes as you say...
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline hilly

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #130 on: March 1, 2009, 12:23:06 am »
We didn't lose today because Skrtel played rightback mate. We lost because we created a load of chances but failed to score and thus kill the game off in the first half hour.

He baffles the fuck out of me at times. But I've not seen us played off the park in the league this season. Which is nice :)

Is fucking right.

The 'fans' which jump on the band wagon, saying Rafa out, team is shite etc need to wake the fuck up. We deserve where we are, an we have once again made progress. Now if Rafa can land his targets and be given a bit of money to progress we have a real chance of winning something, as right now t he league is out of our hands and really, it's United to lose.

But I trust Rafe completely, we are going in the right direction and even the none believer should be able to see that!

Offline TSC

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #131 on: March 1, 2009, 12:25:23 am »
Any criticism in that post was at a wide target TSC. Your balanced criticisms are ones I can respect and your perspective is one I can appreciate while disagreeing with.

And you're right about the club ownership. We're trying to run a title bid while the club is falling apart internally.

Hand on heart? Overall, I think we are more efficient. ;) And that has come by playing a much more measured form of football. Rafa's had to instill that discipline into the team to make us harder to beat. Better football has certainly been evident at times. I want us to open up our game more, but I appreciate that right now Rafa can't afford to take that risk from the start as often as we'd like.

How much time? I wouldn't like to guess. I'm judging it season by season. If I see progress, then I'm happy. If I see regression overall in a season, then I'm going to be alarmed. Two seasons and I'll start thinking it's the end of the road. So far I've seen slow and gradual but effective progression in the league. And so much depends on the suits being able to sign the cheques he writes as you say...

You see in my view the league was there for the winning.  And that's where we prob part company on views.  I simply think Rafa is too negative.  There was a thread on here which went to several pages entitled 'it's important to win but more important not to lose'.

I could list loads of examples even in the current season to back up my view; playing two holding midfielders at home to mediocre teams, weird substitutions, baffling tactics, etc.  Even today.  Playing MS at RB?  What's going on there?

Offline scoresagain

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #132 on: March 1, 2009, 12:30:47 am »
rafa does test my patience, but if we get rid of him, who do we get in to take his place?
i am neither die hard for rafa, or die hard against him, but it does baffle me when people say sack him and cant say someone available who they would like, it also baffles me when the pro rafas cant see his faults, and anyone who says them outloud gets shouted down.
we cant expect to go from 4th to winning the league in one season, thats miraculous, so if your patience is going...hold on to it as hard as you can, hes the best man for the job.

Offline TSC

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #133 on: March 1, 2009, 12:37:53 am »
rafa does test my patience, but if we get rid of him, who do we get in to take his place?
i am neither die hard for rafa, or die hard against him, but it does baffle me when people say sack him and cant say someone available who they would like, it also baffles me when the pro rafas cant see his faults, and anyone who says them outloud gets shouted down.
we cant expect to go from 4th to winning the league in one season, thats miraculous, so if your patience is going...hold on to it as hard as you can, hes the best man for the job.

Aye it's a conundrum!

In al seriousness I think Rafa is irrelevant to the bigger battle this club faces.  Rafa can fuck off, the club can't.  I think the challenge for the title has taken focus away from our biggest challenge to ever face this club since Hillsbrough, and that's getting rid of the current owners. 

This is a massive battle and one we can't afford to lose.  Forget Rafa in this respect.  He's irrelevant.  He's the current manager.  They come and go.  The owners would love us all to focus on matters re Rafa and on the pitch.  Takes the focus off them.

Never lose sight of the fact they're our biggest long term threat.

Offline Kop4

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #134 on: March 1, 2009, 12:40:43 am »
I think in first couple of years Rafa done excellently.  i think we've stood fairly static last couple of years, and this is based on going to games.

Anyway the bigger point for me is that the whole club is in a mess and needs a complete overhaul and new owners.

Great points except the owners and club mess bit.  The vast majority of stuff should, and could have been kept in house.  Rafa has opened his mouth too much for my liking in a needless game of brinkmanship ............. great if you walk the walk, but as you say has he really moved is forward in the last 2 years?

O'Neill and Moyes have had relatively little to spend but are relatively close to us.  Arsenal are unusually poor this season but everyone can see their potential.

Many people overlook Rafa's main goal.  He is like a spoilt kid in the playground.  If he can't win, he gives up and takes his ball home.  Whatever soundbites he delivers about the league being his priority, his actions betray him.  He knows that squadwise we are struggling to compete with United over a season and by far the best chance of success is the Champions league.  Success here has two advantages:

1.  Far more cash for your efforts, relatively speaking.
2.  A much higher personal profile for him on the world stage.

That is why he can win in Madrid and then put out that side and formation against Middlesbrough.

As far as Rafa is concerned, the title was already beyond us in all probability and, as a spoilt child, he has given up on it for his favoured Champions League.
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Offline redscotch

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #135 on: March 1, 2009, 12:41:16 am »
agree  TSC  :thumbup
« Last Edit: March 1, 2009, 12:43:14 am by redscotch »

Offline Zeb

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #136 on: March 1, 2009, 12:42:15 am »
You see in my view the league was there for the winning.  And that's where we prob part company on views.  I simply think Rafa is too negative.  There was a thread on here which went to several pages entitled 'it's important to win but more important not to lose'.

I could list loads of examples even in the current season to back up my view; playing two holding midfielders at home to mediocre teams, weird substitutions, baffling tactics, etc.  Even today.  Playing MS at RB?  What's going on there?

MS at RB I've speculated on earlier in this thread (I think, or one of the others) but I think it's down to having a lot of games in such a short space of time that Carra couldn't do it, that to play Darby would mean having N'Gog leading the line which Rafa didn't want today with Gerrard obviously so lacking match fitness and that Skrtel might have been able to counter Downing with his presence. Skrtel and El Zhar as a partnership down the line obviously wasn't working well defensively, but the two crosses Downing managed to get in pre-OG were comfortably dealt with and after the own goal, Boro offered zip going forward for the rest of the half.

I do trust Benítez as a tactician. The evidence that he's not 'defensive' are in the chances we've been creating. There have been a lot. Sufficient even for Keane to have some absolute howlers and for us to nick results.

I don't think the league was going to be won this year. I was delighted that we did so well in the absence of Torres but all season that lack of cutting edge in front of goal has plagued us. We've created chances aplenty, and managed to squeak results in the first half of the season. As the players became increasingly tired and heavier rotation was needed to cover the traditional fixture congestion after Christmas even the edge of our high pressing tactics started to wear off and then we began to see draws. It sounds 20/20 hindsight but those have genuinely been my views as the season progressed.

We've done well so far this year considering the circumstances we've been dealing with. I hope that the season doesn't implode now and we are able to take stock now the pressure is totally off us and see just how close we can get to the Mancs this season while perhaps enjoying a bit of fun in the CL.

Anyways, I've enjoyed having someone put their thoughts across so well TSC. Thank you. Off to bed now :)
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #137 on: March 1, 2009, 12:48:20 am »
So Darby was the solution? Darby-El Zhar down the right flank would have been the way to go?

My answer is no. I am not losing patience. Not with Rafa, but maybe with all supporters who are all too prepared to moan and give up. We're the only ones who can't believe in the team even if we're top of the league.


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Offline stockdam

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #138 on: March 1, 2009, 12:56:07 am »
rafa does test my patience, but if we get rid of him, who do we get in to take his place?
i am neither die hard for rafa, or die hard against him, but it does baffle me when people say sack him and cant say someone available who they would like, it also baffles me when the pro rafas cant see his faults, and anyone who says them outloud gets shouted down.
we cant expect to go from 4th to winning the league in one season, thats miraculous, so if your patience is going...hold on to it as hard as you can, hes the best man for the job.


Agreed. I can't think of anyone who I'd choose to replace him.
We don't have the money and things will get worse. Our short term goals will be to stay solvent. It will take years to build up the club again.

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Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #139 on: March 1, 2009, 01:23:12 am »
season over already? just the Champions league and getting as high a PL points total possible not good enough for you guys

why not leave these discussions for the end of the season when we have nothing to talk about but the manager, the players and transfer shite for about 3 months
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #140 on: March 1, 2009, 01:27:42 am »
MS at RB I've speculated on earlier in this thread (I think, or one of the others) but I think it's down to having a lot of games in such a short space of time that Carra couldn't do it, that to play Darby would mean having N'Gog leading the line which Rafa didn't want today with Gerrard obviously so lacking match fitness and that Skrtel might have been able to counter Downing with his presence. Skrtel and El Zhar as a partnership down the line obviously wasn't working well defensively, but the two crosses Downing managed to get in pre-OG were comfortably dealt with and after the own goal, Boro offered zip going forward for the rest of the half.

I do trust Benítez as a tactician. The evidence that he's not 'defensive' are in the chances we've been creating. There have been a lot. Sufficient even for Keane to have some absolute howlers and for us to nick results.
...

We've done well so far this year considering the circumstances we've been dealing with. I hope that the season doesn't implode now and we are able to take stock now the pressure is totally off us and see just how close we can get to the Mancs this season while perhaps enjoying a bit of fun in the CL.


That is the best explanation I have seen regarding the choice of Skrtel at RB.

i also agree that we've done well so far this season and I would hate it if we just gave up now. We owe ourselves to keep going.

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Danny_

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #141 on: March 1, 2009, 02:06:00 am »
I agree with the sentiment - anybody losing patience now didn't have much to begin with.  We need new players, not a new manager.  Where would ManU be if they had sacked Fergie after five years and not waited the sixth year.  You don't win things by having instability at the club.  Rafa is getting it right, slower than what we wanted, but he is getting there.  He needs the time and support from us and the owners.



Offline KOTP

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #142 on: March 1, 2009, 02:07:29 am »
I agree with the sentiment - anybody losing patience now didn't have much to begin with.  We need new players, not a new manager.  Where would ManU be if they had sacked Fergie after five years and not waited the sixth year.  You don't win things by having instability at the club.  Rafa is getting it right, slower than what we wanted, but he is getting there.  He needs the time and support from us and the owners.

maybe you are right and he may eventually get it right but how much more time do you give him if in a season or twos time we are still where we are there will still be people saying that,

Offline scoresagain

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #143 on: March 1, 2009, 02:08:04 am »
I agree with the sentiment - anybody losing patience now didn't have much to begin with.  We need new players, not a new manager.  Where would ManU be if they had sacked Fergie after five years and not waited the sixth year.  You don't win things by having instability at the club.  Rafa is getting it right, slower than what we wanted, but he is getting there.  He needs the time and support from us and the owners.
thats slightly ironic that mate, even when were not changing managers, we are the most unstable club in the league at the moment, but i do agree with you.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #144 on: March 1, 2009, 02:08:24 am »

As far as Rafa is concerned, the title was already beyond us in all probability and, as a spoilt child, he has given up on it for his favoured Champions League.

Disagree. It's the supporters, more than the players and the manager that give up early.

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline scoresagain

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #145 on: March 1, 2009, 02:11:46 am »
Disagree. It's the supporters, more than the players and the manager that give up early.
i disagree with you, we wanted to win it, we wanted it so badly the atmosphere at games was just nervous energy, that transpires onto the pitch, the players become nervous and dont play to the best of their ability, the performances then get worse and the fans notice this, if you play badly you dont win competitions, most of the fans arent deluded enough to think otherwise.

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #146 on: March 1, 2009, 02:29:42 am »
Disagree. It's the supporters, more than the players and the manager that give up early.
I really do think this 'fans giving up' card is way too overplayed sometimes.

The fans don't plan the tactics, they don't call the transfers, nor do they have a chance to put a way sitters like the one El Zhar had (although I expect most would have fared better).

Fans support, and get behind the team, but let's not make this as the main reason a title challenge goes off the rails here. You couldn't get a 'worse' following than Brazil's national team in terms of expectancy, booing them in the middle of games and even cheering the opposition. They flipping pelted the team bus parading the world cup trophy in 2002 because they couldn't pass by a certain district... hasn't stopped them from getting 5 world cups and being the most successful international team, Madrid don't exactly have the loudest, most passionate support, waiving their hanckies at a manager after only a few months, hasn't stopped them being the most successful/biggest club in the history of the game.

Point is, our support could be better during a season, but for a team approaching two decades without a league, I really think the problem lies elsewhere.


Offline Danny_

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #147 on: March 1, 2009, 02:33:08 am »
maybe you are right and he may eventually get it right but how much more time do you give him if in a season or twos time we are still where we are there will still be people saying that,

Look, I've been watching football for a very long time and I see signs, in the current squad, that we are getting very close to being a real force to deal with.  Yes, today was awful, but look at the way we are playing now.  It's pass and move all over again.  Gone is the hoofball of the past, a dark and distant memory now from the Houllier era.  We are holding onto the ball, passing it along the ground and the only thing we are lacking is solidity at the back and a cutting edge up front.  I shudder to think how good a young Michael Owen or Robbie Fowler would have been in our side.  We would have suited them perfectly, particularly the former, who had to play in Houllier's hoofball sides and maybe, never fullfilled his true potential because of it.  Yes, he was amazing but I would love to see how good he could have been if you were able to move him forwards in time and put him into our current side.

That is what we are missing. When Torres is injured, we don't have anybody to knock in the goals.  Robbie Keane was not the solution in this regard.  He was not good enough.  Yeah, he was better than Babel and Ngog but that's not sayign much.  Rafa made the tough decision to get rid when he was still worth close to what we paid and that's one reason why some of us love him - he's not afraid to take risks.

Now, regarding how much time Benitez gets, that depends.  If you realistically think that we should expect the title every year now just because he has been here for four years, then you are dreaming.  Those days are gone.  I grew up in those days but I've had to realign my expectations with reality.  You just don't win things unless you have the best players and it takes money to get them.

And, it doesn't seem to be the case that you can get anything for free anymore by having a good youth policy.  Hell, it used to be that there was such a thing as "an unknown" quantity in football from south america or malaysia or Egypt or whereever.  Nowadays, there is so much money in the game that it seems like we know about anybody talented from the age of 16 onwards.  If they are really talented, big clubs start watching them when they are 12 years old.  So, it's a lot harder to get good young players.

That means that we have to buy players but when you are competing in the transfer market against ManU who can outbid you every time and Chelsea and when you had a CEO that drags his heels in negotiations like Parry did, then it becomes very difficult.  I say - Give Rafa at least two more years post-Parry before we even start contemplating getting rid.  Lets see who he buys in the summer.

Besides, who are you going to replace him with? Mourinho? Anybody that believes that Mourinho is some kind of gennie who is going to make all our wishes come true is kidding themselves.  He's a good manager but he won the league with vastly superior resources at Chelsea.  He is winning in Italy with Inter but the league has been decimated by the refing scandal and Juventus are not the force they once were because of it. 

He won the CL with Porto but so what.  Rafa won it with us and beat him to get there.  Rafa also won the league in Spain against Barca and Madrid, arguably a much greater achievement than Mourinho's two English titles.  So when you compare their track records, you have to say that we would be weaker, not stronger with Mourinho.  Press conferences might be more fun but I don't think our club needs any more of a media circus than it already has.

So, I say that this discussion is premature.  In the internet era, it seems that it only takes one loss before a portion of the fans start going mental.  Two losses and they are clamouring for the manager's head.  It's ridiculous.  We get into the CL every year easily now under Rafa.  We used to be fighting like Tigers for a CL place under Houllier apart from that one year that we came 2nd.  That's progress.  Our style of play has changed to possession football from the counter-attacking football of the Houllier era.  That's progress.  We've brought players like Torres and Alonso to the club because of Rafa.  That's progress.  We've got one of the best goalkeepers in the world in goal because of Rafa.  That's progress.  So, people who are saying we aren't going forward are just looking at the negatives.  Get behind the team and manger and lets give him the time he needs.  Otherwise, it won't be 18-18.  It will be 24-18 after another decade and that will hurt a lot worse than the current Fall from grace.

Offline macca888

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #148 on: March 1, 2009, 03:15:29 am »
I know this might sound like me being the eternal optimist, but something that sustains me is thinking that if we had scored 5 more goals this season, we'd be top of the league still. Pick any 5 of our draws, and I guarantee you that we had more than enough chances to have scored those 5 goals too, many of which were pretty much open goals or a combination of stunning or lucky saves. I know that people will think it is far too idealistic to distill it down to such simple terms, but it is a fact nonetheless. I just cannot accept some of the shite I hear about Rafa and his defensive tactics when I realise that. Sure, getting beat is a pain in the hoop, but that is to be expected over the course of a season. Even United lose sometimes you know!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 1, 2009, 03:17:09 am by macca888 »
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Offline mooks

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #149 on: March 1, 2009, 04:31:16 am »
Point is, our support could be better during a season, but for a team approaching two decades without a league, I really think the problem lies elsewhere.
A team or a club??

Offline gloves

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #150 on: March 1, 2009, 06:02:09 am »
It's true that there appeared to be some lethargy in the players, but I didn't think it was the 'worst' performance ever.  I've seen us play a lot worse than that.  We actually created a lot of decent chances in this game and should have put the game to bed much earlier.  The own goal was just a bit of bad luck like in the last game against Man City (massive deflection later credited as an own goal). 

Obviously we would all like to see more of a response than what we saw, but even then we still created enough chances to turn the game around and surely to level the game.  However we didn't take it, and that was what ultimately cost us the game - not our tactics, nor our personnel.  The game was there to be won but we didn't win it.

I feel that's the most disappointing part about it.

Offline Liverbird 2010

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #151 on: March 1, 2009, 07:29:32 am »
Patients is a vertue,
Catch it if you can,
Seldom in a woman,
But never in a man.  ;)
FOOTBALL IS A LIE! RAFAEL BENITEZ :-)

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #152 on: March 1, 2009, 07:44:11 am »
Superb mate, superb

How so, mate ?
Lacking solidity at the back, and cutting edge upfront. 2/3 of the equation gone.

Offline conman

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #153 on: March 1, 2009, 09:43:46 am »
That's a good point actually.  Where the fuck is he?
insua is playing the south american championships, maybe thats over now ?? not sure...

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #154 on: March 1, 2009, 09:45:13 am »
So Darby was the solution? Darby-El Zhar down the right flank would have been the way to go?

Darby can't be worse than Skrtel was yesterday. Do you think Ferueson is scared to play Evans when he has no cover for CB?

Offline mainstandred

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #155 on: March 1, 2009, 10:06:21 am »
So after now 5 seasons under Rafa Benitez we still haven't challenged for the title  , And sorry the end of February is not a title challenge and February is being kind because it was much earlier in reality ,

Yes he is a really good coach in the European football were the majority of times he gets it right ,

But after millions spent he still after five years isn't good enough in the premier league .


Rafael Benitez's remit when he came to liverpool as manager was to win the league OK we know its a tough league to win but to not ever come close in five years is getting beyond a joke and this season has been embarrassing  to say the least in the league ,

Yes Europe the vast majority of times we do well but the league is the yard stick and after 5 season liverpool have not got anywhere near it ,

this season united haven't broke sweat and will win the league by miles even Alex Ferguson thought when they went to japan they were to far behind and for me that makes this season worse because they should have been to far behind  but once again liverpool premier league campaign fails badly .

Offline 4-2-3-1

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #156 on: March 1, 2009, 10:15:46 am »
Our 'best 11' is still quality, the spine is comparable to most across Europe, defensively on the whole we are solid. Benitez needs to take credit for putting together our best 15/16 players for over 15 years.

However, our squad is still lacking creativity and pace (even some players admit that) Keane going with no replacement was madness. Kuyt isn't a starter in a title winning side, either up top or wide. We have been 'found out' slightly at Anfield if we don't score early especially. Substitutions are too mechanical.

We have been unlucky in some games recently and should still be in touch with Mancs, 2nd or 3rd is a clear improvement, not many teams go from 4th to 1st in one year with the same team and weaker squad.

Oh, and Rome is still on 8)

Offline LiamG

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #157 on: March 1, 2009, 10:30:52 am »
As much as i get frustrated with results like yesterday i still think Rafa is the man to take us to the title
Afterall he is STILL building his team and it does take time and patience, plus who would come in now and win us the league with the current squad? Nobody!

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #158 on: March 1, 2009, 12:16:31 pm »
Quick , before this gets locked .

I for one am getting more and more baffled by Rafa , My patients are wearing thin now and I cant even begin to imagine how the real fans who go to each and every game feel . . .

I always try to stay positive but its getting harder and harder with the continuous in house politics , and playing players out of position , EG: Why play Skrtel at RB when we have a perfectly good replacement in Darby on the bench ? Thats just one of many examples that I cant even be arsed to name now , you know what I mean . . .

Why does he complicate things that are so simple ?

Yes we are in 3rd place but lets be honest we have blagged alot of results this season and the other usual suspects , except for Utd , have faltered alot more than usual this season, hence our 3rd position now . . . .
Im not saying get rid , Im just asking for peoples opinions on it . . .
It'd be a shame if this gets locked which I can almost guarantee it will , I thought this was a forum for discussion but I fear I may be wrong within 30 mins . . . .



Spot on post Yafoy ,
We are Liverpool , its not in our nature to give up so easily . . .

alot can happen in football and almost always does , Utd will drop points . . .

Still long way to go and as I said in another thread the pressure will now lift because nobody expects us to win the league now , and on the same note everybody expects Utd to win easily most of their remaining games . . .
the pressure is on them now to win it

YNWA

hmmm...

Offline shelovesyou

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Re: Slowly losing patience ?
« Reply #159 on: March 1, 2009, 03:11:11 pm »
hmmm...

hmmmm . yes .. hmmmm .
thats how positive Ive tried to be just like ive said I usually am but its wearing thin now . . .
something has got to give . . .
and anyway I dont have to justify anything to anyone , Its my opinion and I know others share it , its not wrong and at the same time its not right . . . its how I feel about things ,
My patience are wearing thin , all the off field politics especially are doing my fuckin head in . Its heading the same way as it did with Valencia
« Last Edit: March 1, 2009, 03:16:59 pm by shelovesyouyehyehyeh »
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