Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Well at least the good news that Klopp has extended his contract will take my mind off this shitfest for a while.

I was going to be so angry with you but

[west_london_red]

Sorry, I thought you were refering to the referendum.

I just can't help thinking that if Labour & Corbyn backed Remain prior to the referendum we'd currently be laughing at the tories desperately trying to keep Frottage and the ERG at bay as they bang the drum for another referendum.

Nooooo, am very much talking about last night!

That’s what we’ll never know. Could Corbyn have swung the referendum to Remain, I’d say its highly probable considering how close the referendum was, in which case everything would have changed.

[redmark]

Andrew Rawnsley @andrewrawnsley · 11h

Comrades, the Five Year Plan was on target to victory until it was treacherously undermined by the capitalist billionaires of Blyth Valley.

[Mutton Geoff]

You misunderstand.

They will ignore the party and just do their own thing if he doesn’t step down.

then split the party into the two factions that are left,  'good thinking' and the obvious outcome of those actions yet another SDP party emerging , although seems to me many in here would welcome that,  and if you want some causation if the likes of the Andy, Cooper and the right wing deadwood were not so absolutely fucking shite in the first election do you really think Corbyn would have got in at all?

Also if there wasn't a massive vacuum in the party and within its membership with people who didnt want anymore Centrist 'new Labour' policies he would not have gained such a massive membership support, you can in some elitist style claim it was all the fault of the cheap membership or a small group of what you would term the loony left but Corbyn and his followers filled that vacuum of disenchanted Socialists who wanted some of the old and real values back not somebody who could say "well you will get Austerity with us too but not quite as bad as them Tories" and younger voters who could see a man who cared about the society he lived in and yes didn't play the establishment games and pander to the likes of Murdoch.

Maybe not being willing to play that game cost him, 'probably' FS said when he got elected poor bugger the establishment will never allow him to get elected and that was such an exact prediction.

He will step down that's obvious, his age and these results makes that inevitable but they will make sure they have a strong candidate lined up first.

While some are obviously crowing about how right they were look in the mirror and think what did i do to try to stop the Tories, i know what i did and i am as always proud to help our local Labour MP who retained his seat.
I am also proud of the fact that rather than sit at a keyboard posting meaningless shite i go out at nights in Nottingham and try to help to poor souls sleeping rough,

By the way before some arsehole comes back on these comments do i think i deserve some kind of recognition for this 'NO' it is what any decent person should be doing, 'helping people less able to help themselves' simple as that,  far better than spouting shite 24/7 on a football forum i would suggest.

One final point when people call Labour supporters 'wankers' on a site with socialist leanings this country is well and truly fucked and they deserve all the Tories will chuck at them.

Right i am going to turn over a couple of plots one thing you can rely on is digging over muck and soil and getting decent crops as a result.

[Lusty]

You've also got the issue that so many Tory voters this time will be first time Tory voters who would have felt a stigma around doing so. Now they've done it, it will be easier next time and almost more likely next time as they'll have five years of confirmation bias that will convince them it was the right thing to do.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm worried about.  I don't know how you get that genie back in the bottle.

Northern working class voters are now basically no different to Southern working class voters and that's not good.

[alonsoisared]

I don't think this is true. At least, no more than it's ever been the case. But they didn't trust Corbyn/Labour enough to overcome those concerns. Lansmann admitted one thing on the BBC in the early hours - Labour's manifesto was "perhaps" just too long. Too many promises, such that it became unbelievable ("where will the money come from for it all?") and difficult to determine what Labour's priorities actually were; the message became too busy. A 105 page manifesto.

You may well be right. But my impression from these "working class" tory voters is that they genuinely don't care, they can't see themselves ever relying on foodbanks or believe that anyone could get there without it being their own fault. They certainly don't care about Islamophobia or the persecution of immigrants. People said the same about Labour's manifesto two years ago but they performed a hell of a lot better than last night. I hoped at the time that the reason for that was that people genuinely cared but anyone voting tory after the last 9 years clearly doesn't.

[Kashinoda]

Well at least the good news that Klopp has extended his contract will take my mind off this shitfest for a while.

So he has! Fuck.

That's perfectly timed.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just got blocked from twitter for calling Rachel Riley a tory c*nt.

Worth it, looking forward to the 12 hour break.

Best part of the morning for me.

It is so counter productive it is untrue though. Labelling people who voted Tory as c*nts is just going to make them dig their heels in. The same as calling them thick, racist or uncaring. The message has to be to tell them we think they have made a mistake but the Labour party will be there for them when this inevitable mess unravels.

This has to be about winning hearts and winners not disparaging anyone who doesn't agree with Corbyn's wildly skewed view of things.

And, it isn't even true. Rachel Riley voted for Chukka Umunna.

https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1205258792759439361

Not that however she voted would excuse such comments.

[redbyrdz]

Do you think that's it though?  Do you think a generic Labour leader with a generic centre leftish set of policies would be elected?  I don't think it would be this bad, but I just don't think the core Labour party message resonates with voters any more. 

I'm struggling to think of a strategy that brings those Northern seats back.  They used to be full of people who would never vote Tory under any circumstances, and now that dam has burst I don't know how you fix it.

A lot of people still care about traditional labour policies - the NHS, wages, schools, public services. But they didn't really trust Corbyn to deliver on them. Also the tories, after years of forcing misery on people, suddenly declared austerity to be over and wanting to spend on the NHS, so eroding a traditional labour policy.

Plus a lot of people buy the media shite of Corbyn the terrorist, and of Johnson being the strong man who "gets Brexit done".

[wige]

This has to be about winning hearts and not disparaging anyone

Shortened it down to that, which I completely agree with. You don't convince someone of something by calling them a c*nt, insulting them, belittling them or patronising them. You need to engage, in a genuine tone, listen to their side of things, discuss and debate.

[Clint Eastwood]

Still pissed off about Kensington. Tories win by 150 votes, but both them and Labour drop by 3-4%. Meanwhile Lib Dem’s gain 9% with 9,000 votes. What the fuck happened there?

The constituency where Grenfell is situated has been claimed by a Tory because of it.

[S]

Well at least the good news that Klopp has extended his contract will take my mind off this shitfest for a while.

Get in! Just logged on and seen your comment out of the blue, had no idea. A bright moment on a dark day.

[Statto Red]

That's not really true though.
They lost 10.4% in Leave areas and 6.4% in Remain areas.  The tories lost 3% in remain areas. Who did they lose them to? The Lib Dems.



I think ultimately the electorate voted against Corbyn rather than pro-Brexit.

So Corbyn's ridiculous neutral policy has cost him big time both ways, a competent Labour leader would have won.

[Snail]

Still pissed off about Kensington. Tories win by 150 votes, but both them and Labour drop by 3-4%. Meanwhile Lib Dem’s gain 9% with 9,000 votes. What the fuck happened there?

Tactical voting guides.

[Bobsackamano]

Just got blocked from twitter for calling Rachel Riley a tory c*nt.

Worth it, looking forward to the 12 hour break.

You're the man!! (High five)

Fucks sake

[John C]

One final point when people call Labour supporters 'wankers' on a site with socialist leanings this country is well and truly fucked and they deserve all the Tories will chuck at them.

Right i am going to turn over a couple of plots one thing you can rely on is digging over muck and soil and getting decent crops as a result.

I've just searched the site and the recycle bin for that word over the last 48 hours and couldn't find anything. Can you report those posts for me please Geoff so I can have a look at the culprits.
Cheers

[Alan_X]

...One final point when people call Labour supporters 'wankers' on a site with socialist leanings this country is well and truly fucked and they deserve all the Tories will chuck at them....

But calling people c*nts is ok?

[Nobby Reserve]

then split the party into the two factions that are left,  'good thinking' and the obvious outcome of those actions yet another SDP party emerging , although seems to me many in here would welcome that,  and if you want some causation if the likes of the Andy, Cooper and the right wing deadwood were not so absolutely fucking shite in the first election do you really think Corbyn would have got in at all?

Also if there wasn't a massive vacuum in the party and within its membership with people who didnt want anymore Centrist 'new Labour' policies he would not have gained such a massive membership support, you can in some elitist style claim it was all the fault of the cheap membership or a small group of what you would term the loony left but Corbyn and his followers filled that vacuum of disenchanted Socialists who wanted some of the old and real values back not somebody who could say "well you will get Austerity with us too but not quite as bad as them Tories" and younger voters who could see a man who cared about the society he lived in and yes didn't play the establishment games and pander to the likes of Murdoch.

Maybe not being willing to play that game cost him, 'probably' FS said when he got elected poor bugger the establishment will never allow him to get elected and that was such an exact prediction.

He will step down that's obvious, his age and these results makes that inevitable but they will make sure they have a strong candidate lined up first.

While some are obviously crowing about how right they were look in the mirror and think what did i do to try to stop the Tories, i know what i did and i am as always proud to help our local Labour MP who retained his seat.
I am also proud of the fact that rather than sit at a keyboard posting meaningless shite i go out at nights in Nottingham and try to help to poor souls sleeping rough,

By the way before some arsehole comes back on these comments do i think i deserve some kind of recognition for this 'NO' it is what any decent person should be doing, 'helping people less able to help themselves' simple as that,  far better than spouting shite 24/7 on a football forum i would suggest.

One final point when people call Labour supporters 'wankers' on a site with socialist leanings this country is well and truly fucked and they deserve all the Tories will chuck at them.

Right i am going to turn over a couple of plots one thing you can rely on is digging over muck and soil and getting decent crops as a result.

Fantastic post.

My political position is, I reckon, pretty close to yours on most issues. But I recognise fully that the Labour manifesto was not only way too ambitious, but confused , chaotic, and delivered with no cohesive narrative. The included some flagship stuff that had people scratching heads why they were making such an issue (the broadband), whilst other major spending commitments were thrown in part-way through the campaign, which smacked of making stuff up to try to buy votes (no matter how justified they might be, like the WASPI pledge)

I also think that, whilst Corbyn is a good person and has a strong adherence to his principles, he has been a shockingly poor leader; far too passive and lacking the will/ability to go for Tory jugulars with venom. And his past made it easy for the RWM to exaggerate and twist things into issues that rankled with too many voters.

If the Labour Party splits, then that just guarantees a stronger electoral position for the Tories.

So against that backdrop, the party needs to elect someone who can carry all wings of the party with them. Given the numbers that Momentum can wield, you'd think the next leader will be from the more left part of the party. But who do you think has the qualities of leadership, has the willingness and ability to be vicious in their holding the Tories to account, and has the ability to keep all wings of the Party onside?

[shook]

It may have been discussed earlier in the thread, but I have a couple of questions I am confused on

1. Scotland: One journo mentioned a "constitutional crisis" because of the SNP tally. Is that even possible? If BoJo refuses a referendum, can the SNP do anything about it?
2. Northern Ireland: Irish Nationalist parties won more than the Unionists - does that mean it is more likely a border poll might occur? Is there some provision in the GFA regarding this sort of political result?

[KillieRed]

Thank you mate, means a lot.

 Not a fan of the bollocks she’s been spouting, but didn’t she say she was voting LD?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not a fan of the bollocks she’s been spouting, but didn’t she say she was voting LD?

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=344128.msg16939297#msg16939297

[KillieRed]

It may have been discussed earlier in the thread, but I have a couple of questions I am confused on

1. Scotland: One journo mentioned a "constitutional crisis" because of the SNP tally. Is that even possible? If BoJo refuses a referendum, can the SNP do anything about it?
2. Northern Ireland: Irish Nationalist parties won more than the Unionists - does that mean it is more likely a border poll might occur? Is there some provision in the GFA regarding this sort of political result?

With their new majority they can probably just stonewall things in parliament. I guess it depends how determined people are to use other methods to force the issues.

[KillieRed]

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=344128.msg16939297#msg16939297

Yeah posted before I’d read that, thanks.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

One piece of good news is that we can all stop worrying about politics for the forseeable future.

The Tories are fully in power. They'll be delivering initially a 'deal' Brexit then at some stage will ask for bullshit terms from the EU, which the EU will obviously decline - so it'll be 'No Deal Brexit' with no one to stop them.

I expect a lot of bad things will happen and I would venture that a lot of those bad things will be absolutely irreversable due to the Trade Deals and Agreements they will be attached to - with clauses in place so that any attempt by future governments to back out would result in the UK being absolutely bankrupted.


So we don't need to worry and can settle back to enjoy our 1984-like dystopian nightmare.

We get to live BladeRunner, The Sprawl, 1984 and various 'end of days' scenerios for real! Yay us!

[Riquende]

I get that there's so many unusual factors but surely a party that has been in power for 2 full 'normal' election cycles massively increasing its majority is unprecedented? Especially one that has made so many high profile blunders and disasters.

I think Corbyn, in his heart, doesn't want to, and has never wanted to lead, and that's what comes across to the electorate. It's one of their many faults, but the average Eton Tory has an innate desire and conviction to be in charge of things, and that seems to resonate with average voters.

Why hasn't he quit yet? Making sure the correct successor is in place to ensure no possible return to the dark days of landslide Labour majorities.

[shook]

With their new majority they can probably just stonewall things in parliament. I guess it depends how determined people are to use other methods to force the issues.

You mean the Tories can stonewall? Does SNP have options then?
Also does the GFA really allow for reunification Irish vote if there are more nationalist MPs, or is that uninformed twitter comment that I read?

[royhendo]

1. Scotland: One journo mentioned a "constitutional crisis" because of the SNP tally. Is that even possible? If BoJo refuses a referendum, can the SNP do anything about it?

Well, they can continue to capitalise. This is a chronic thing now and the shifting demographics exacerbate it. But nothing will happen in the short term.

The Better Together campaign in the Independence Referendum got its result, but the result was tight, and since then the pillars it was built on have been pretty steadily dismantled. So the SNP's starting point is pushing at an open door. Add to that a half way credible leader (see also the void elsewhere in the country) and it looks set to continue regardless of the shorter term agenda.

Saying that, if somehow some power were to conjure up a half way credible leader with a nationwide remit (say, oh, I dunno - under the Labour banner), then things would change. A Neil Atkinson, or a Jay McKenna... how's that for a straw man? As my Dad used to say, "You're only as good as the other team let you be." That's true of the SNP too. It's true of every side.

[Red_Mist]

One piece of good news is that we can all stop worrying about politics for the forseeable future.

The Tories are fully in power. They'll be delivering initially a 'deal' Brexit then at some stage will ask for bullshit terms from the EU, which the EU will obviously decline - so it'll be 'No Deal Brexit' with no one to stop them.

I expect a lot of bad things will happen and I would venture that a lot of those bad things will be absolutely irreversable due to the Trade Deals and Agreements they will be attached to - with clauses in place so that any attempt by future governments to back out would result in the UK being absolutely bankrupted.


So we don't need to worry and can settle back to enjoy our 1984-like dystopian nightmare.

We get to live BladeRunner, The Sprawl, 1984 and various 'end of days' scenerios for real! Yay us!

Yeah, that’s er great news as you say

[Red-Soldier]

One piece of good news is that we can all stop worrying about politics for the forseeable future.

The Tories are fully in power. They'll be delivering initially a 'deal' Brexit then at some stage will ask for bullshit terms from the EU, which the EU will obviously decline - so it'll be 'No Deal Brexit' with no one to stop them.

I expect a lot of bad things will happen and I would venture that a lot of those bad things will be absolutely irreversable due to the Trade Deals and Agreements they will be attached to - with clauses in place so that any attempt by future governments to back out would result in the UK being absolutely bankrupted.


So we don't need to worry and can settle back to enjoy our 1984-like dystopian nightmare.

We get to live BladeRunner, The Sprawl, 1984 and various 'end of days' scenerios for real! Yay us!

You mean when we won the treble 

[Lusty]

Well, they can continue to capitalise. This is a chronic thing now and the shifting demographics exacerbate it. But nothing will happen in the short term.

The Better Together campaign in the Independence Referendum got its result, but the result was tight, and since then the pillars it was built on have been pretty steadily dismantled. So the SNP's starting point is pushing at an open door. Add to that a half way credible leader (see also the void elsewhere in the country) and it looks set to continue regardless of the shorter term agenda.

Saying that, if somehow some power were to conjure up a half way credible leader with a nationwide remit (say, oh, I dunno - under the Labour banner), then things would change. A Neil Atkinson, or a Jay McKenna... how's that for a straw man? As my Dad used to say, "You're only as good as the other team let you be." That's true of the SNP too. It's true of every side.

I saw some talk somewhere of a court challenge over Scottish sovereignty.  So, the pathway would be a SNP win in the next Scottish parliament election, requesting a referendum from Westminster, being refused and then challenge that in court.

Every chance they lose in the short term, but the optics of it all would make independence more likely in the mid to long term I bet.

[shook]

Well, they can continue to capitalise. This is a chronic thing now and the shifting demographics exacerbate it. But nothing will happen in the short term.

Thanks

[TravisBickle]

It was not an issue of manifestos. It was not about policy. It was about the fact Labour put forward an absurd leader who the majority of people found as appealing as a cup of cold sick.

This government has been a disaster. They are evil, lying, murdering bastards. Nobody here needs convincing of that.

I voted Lib Dem yesterday and it broke my heart to do it. But when Labour acts like it has done for the last four years, the only option I felt I had left was to deprive them of my vote. Because maybe, just maybe now, they’ll start getting it.

I work with someone who once stood as a Labour Councillor in Bradford. Fucking Bradford. He voted Tory yesterday for the same reason I voted Lib Dem.

I will never let this go. Even if you put aside the treatment of the Jewish community, which is a fucking disgrace by the way,  the utter self indulgence of the Corbyn project is unforgivable and if you re-elected him, you should know that this on you.

Edit: respect to the Bergers and Gapses who fucking did something about all this. The rest of the decent Labour MPs sat there and stayed under that twat’s banner knowing what it would lead to. They’re fucking culpable too.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

You mean when we won the treble 

(Y)

LFC always seems to do well when we have absolutely horrific Governments, so I'm expecting a clean sweep for the next 10 years

[redmark]

Well, they can continue to capitalise. This is a chronic thing now and the shifting demographics exacerbate it. But nothing will happen in the short term.

The Better Together campaign in the Independence Referendum got its result, but the result was tight, and since then the pillars it was built on have been pretty steadily dismantled. So the SNP's starting point is pushing at an open door. Add to that a half way credible leader (see also the void elsewhere in the country) and it looks set to continue regardless of the shorter term agenda.

Saying that, if somehow some power were to conjure up a half way credible leader with a nationwide remit (say, oh, I dunno - under the Labour banner), then things would change. A Neil Atkinson, or a Jay McKenna... how's that for a straw man? As my Dad used to say, "You're only as good as the other team let you be." That's true of the SNP too. It's true of every side.

Can we all come and live in Scotland, Roy? If we promise to support independence...

[redmark]

Corbyn: Manifesto was great. It was Brexit.

[TepidT2O]

Thank god for Jurgen Klopp to take us through this next parliament

[smicer07]

Someone on Facebook wanting donations for a food bank in Rhyl. Fuck that, those twats just voted in a conservative MP and get what they deserve.

[Snail]

Sorry for the arguments I've had with people on here. I'm in a very bad way today and I've been sent home from work early, I can feel my mental health falling away from me and it's a lot to deal with. But I'm very sorry for the arguments I had with people on here, shouldn't have been sweary and aggressive and all that. Sorry.

[damomad]

Corbyn: Manifesto was great. It was Brexit.

His reactions to losing have made it clear that he was never fit to lead. No humility, no shouldering of the blame, blaming it only on external issues.

[redmark]

Sarkar blaming the MSM. Mendoza blaming the Guardian and the Jews. John Mann announces an inquiry into the role of outlets like the Canary into the rise of antisemitism.

All going swimmingly.