Author Topic: China - a Fascist State  (Read 75962 times)

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #280 on: March 11, 2021, 05:20:45 pm »
But what you are forgetting Yorky is that these draconian measures are what makes China so strong and powerful in the mind of our friend. Unlike the West.

He is of the opinion that authoritarianism is the only path of economic development. Maybe it's because he is from India, a democracy that has been plagued with corruption for the past 70 years. Don't even ask him about his views on Modi, the wannabe dictator who has cut India's economic growth in half. I grew up there too, and I don't understand why so many Indians have an obsession with being more like China. I think it's largely due to the heavily censored and falsely positive image that China projects abroad.

Whereas in western democracies sometimes the news and media do overly focus on the negatives in our system. I am a Canadian now and I love living in Canada. Yes, there is some corruption in our government, but overall it's way more efficient and transparent. I love the fact I can say what I want, do what I want. My kids will have upward mobility. And our government is not run on the whims of the dear leader.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 05:25:41 pm by Max_powers »

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #281 on: March 11, 2021, 05:24:38 pm »
But what you are forgetting Yorky is that these draconian measures are what makes China so strong and powerful in the mind of our friend. Unlike the West.

He is of the opinion that authoritarianism is the only path of economic development. Maybe it's because he is from India, a democracy that has been plagued with corruption for the past 70 years. Don't even ask him about his views on Modi the wannabe dictator who has cut India's economic growth in half. I grew up there too, and I don't understand why so many Indians have an obsession with being more like China. I think it's largely due to the heavily censored and falsely positive image that China projects abroad.

Whereas in western democracy's sometimes the news and media do overly focus on the negatives in our system. I am a Canadian now and I love living in Canada. Yes, there is some corruption in our government, but overall it's way more efficient and transparent. I love the fact I can say what I want, do what I want. My kids will have upward mobility. And our government is not run on the whims of the dear leader.

Moynihan's Law :)

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #282 on: March 11, 2021, 06:24:23 pm »
You can't even say the words Tiananmen Square 1989 in China without asking for trouble from some copper or judge (the same thing in the 'People's Republic' of course).

Imagine how fragile the ego must be if the names and/or caricature of cartoons, places, icons and regions act as a trigger. That's what is the actual sign of a fascist state.

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #283 on: March 11, 2021, 06:29:19 pm »
But what you are forgetting Yorky is that these draconian measures are what makes China so strong and powerful in the mind of our friend. Unlike the West.

He is of the opinion that authoritarianism is the only path of economic development. Maybe it's because he is from India, a democracy that has been plagued with corruption for the past 70 years. Don't even ask him about his views on Modi, the wannabe dictator who has cut India's economic growth in half. I grew up there too, and I don't understand why so many Indians have an obsession with being more like China. I think it's largely due to the heavily censored and falsely positive image that China projects abroad.

Whereas in western democracies sometimes the news and media do overly focus on the negatives in our system. I am a Canadian now and I love living in Canada. Yes, there is some corruption in our government, but overall it's way more efficient and transparent. I love the fact I can say what I want, do what I want. My kids will have upward mobility. And our government is not run on the whims of the dear leader.

Interesting.

Despotisms like China's have always attracted fellow travellers from democratic countries. There's something about political violence and uncompromising authoritarianism which some - usually educated - people find very attractive. You'll note how our current friend really hates the word 'liberalism'. He obviously thinks it soft and weak. Whereas the thought of 40 million deaths is a bit of a turn on. Such violence has to come via  the hand of a 'visionary leader' who is working with the 'grain of History' of course. It has to be deliberate and has to be underpinned by a 'noble' purpose. 'Progress' will usually suffice.

I haven't asked our friend what he thinks about the current persecution and genocide of the Uighurs. But only because I know both his answers already 1) It's not happening 2) They deserve it anyway because they are 'feudal' and 'backward' etc. 
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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #284 on: March 11, 2021, 06:58:58 pm »
How do you expect Democracy to work when people have lost the ability to read or critically think and are stuck in a feedback loop that appeals to their confirmation bias?

So you're fine how China treats it's minorities?

You haven't expressed an opinion here yet. All what you're doing is being an apologist, answering questions with questions, two wrongs make a right etc.

Nail yourself down on something and stick to it mate.
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Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #285 on: March 11, 2021, 09:01:22 pm »
Falsely positive image that China projects abroad.

Falsely positive? :lmao :lmao.Have you even been there ? But then for people who take the slightest criticism of Islam as "islamaphobic" and have been shameless enough to try and re-write India's history to deny it's civilizational achievements  itself facts aren't something to be concerned with.

Show me your source for "many Indians have an obsession with being more like China"

Last I checked the Maoists/naxals were considered terrorists hiding in the jungles but then the great liberal arundhati Roy thinks they are brave and there is something "romantic" in them opposing the state     :butt

Offline CalgarianRed

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #286 on: March 11, 2021, 09:02:12 pm »
But what you are forgetting Yorky is that these draconian measures are what makes China so strong and powerful in the mind of our friend. Unlike the West.

He is of the opinion that authoritarianism is the only path of economic development. Maybe it's because he is from India, a democracy that has been plagued with corruption for the past 70 years. Don't even ask him about his views on Modi, the wannabe dictator who has cut India's economic growth in half. I grew up there too, and I don't understand why so many Indians have an obsession with being more like China. I think it's largely due to the heavily censored and falsely positive image that China projects abroad.

Whereas in western democracies sometimes the news and media do overly focus on the negatives in our system. I am a Canadian now and I love living in Canada. Yes, there is some corruption in our government, but overall it's way more efficient and transparent. I love the fact I can say what I want, do what I want. My kids will have upward mobility. And our government is not run on the whims of the dear leader.

Can't agree more being a Canadian.
However, I have some Asian friends who are recent immigrants and they can't stop praising the Chinese and Indian government. One is a fascist state and other is well way on its way to become one. Atleast the  second generation Indians and Chinese detest their regimes back home, so that's something positive.
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Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #287 on: March 11, 2021, 09:04:53 pm »
You're a fascist,  he's a fascist, they're a fascist

Everyone's a fascist

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #288 on: March 11, 2021, 09:07:58 pm »
This being the real point.

We are also allowed to criticise Britain's colonial past, just as our forefathers were allowed to organise against imperialism. And not only were we allowed to vote Churchill out of power, we can now praise him, mock him, admire his fortitude, berate his incompetence, express gratitude for his opposition to Nazism, express horror for his indifference to Indian death and poverty, say what a wonderful writer he was, remember that his writing is unreliable. All these things.

We have the tools to learn, no censors checking what we are saying, no orthodoxies to which we must cleave, no secret policemen forever looking over our shoulder. Moreover, we take it for granted. Forgetting some times that places like China are not like this.

You can't even say the words Tiananmen Square 1989 in China without asking for trouble from some copper or judge (the same thing in the 'People's Republic' of course).

Yeah all these freedoms sure have led to healthy societies, I too follow the level of mainstream discourse in the UK and USA.

Truly well informed electorate taking full advantage of their freedom to learn. I'm impressed
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 09:09:49 pm by newworldorderA »

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #289 on: March 11, 2021, 09:13:21 pm »
Falsely positive? :lmao :lmao.Have you even been there ? But then for people who take the slightest criticism of Islam as "islamaphobic" and have been shameless enough to try and re-write India's history to deny it's civilizational achievements  itself facts aren't something to be concerned with.

Show me your source for "many Indians have an obsession with being more like China"

Last I checked the Maoists/naxals were considered terrorists hiding in the jungles but then the great liberal arundhati Roy thinks they are brave and there is something "romantic" in them opposing the state     :butt

I am Indian and have Indian family and friends who I talk to. Have you seen people sharing meme's about how India is not developing as fast as China with photos of highways, skyscrapers etc. Even Indian governments are obsessed with this idea. See the whole obsession with turning "Insert Indian City" into Shangai.

Yes they do project a falsely positive image abroad. How much discussion do you see in Chinese media about corruption in Government? Or lives of Chinese citizens who live on the margins of society. Or do you actually believe that China is some utopian society where such problems don't exist?

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #290 on: March 11, 2021, 09:19:22 pm »
Yeah all these freedoms sure have led to healthy societies, I too follow the level of mainstream discourse in the UK and USA.

Truly well informed electorate taking full advantage of their freedom to learn. I'm impressed

It's a nice society. You should try it before you knock it. What you see on the internet is not how people behave in real life.


Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #291 on: March 11, 2021, 09:23:50 pm »
I am Indian and have Indian family and friends who I talk to. Have you seen people sharing meme's about how India is not developing as fast as China with photos of highways, skyscrapers etc. Even Indian governments are obsessed with this idea. See the whole obsession with turning "Insert Indian City" into Shangai.

Yes they do project a falsely positive image abroad. How much discussion do you see in Chinese media about corruption in Government? Or lives of Chinese citizens who live on the margins of society. Or do you actually believe that China is some utopian society where such problems don't exist?

Expressng admiration for China's growth doesn't mean admiration for the system itself. The communists in India have been relegated to Kerela and Bengal and they will lose Bengal this year as well.

The communist chief was considered a fraud and a laughing stock because he couldn't criticize Xi during the galwan stand off. What even are you talking about lol? Ironically the liberals in India are obsessed with brining the communists mainstream

By this great logic America portrays a "falsely positive" image of western society through Hollywood. Anyone whose taken a stroll through LA can see what a dump it is with homelessness and crime behind the big HOLLYWOOD sign

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #292 on: March 11, 2021, 09:26:46 pm »
It's a nice society. You should try it before you knock it. What you see on the internet is not how people behave in real life.

It sucks, I hate it. So concerned about "Freedom" they can't ban 12 year olds from accessing excessively sexualized mainstream content and a culture where Cardi B is considered inspirational

A culture which now has the majority of its youth wanting to be you tube stars. No thanks

You know what they aspire to be in China? Astronauts

https://www.businessinsider.in/american-kids-want-to-be-famous-on-youtube-and-kids-in-china-want-to-go-to-space-survey/articleshow/70265675.cms
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 09:29:02 pm by newworldorderA »

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #293 on: March 12, 2021, 07:40:20 am »
I've cleaned the thread up, apologies for any lost posts. Besides the obvious let me know if there is anything you want reinstating.
Ta folks.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #294 on: March 18, 2021, 10:34:52 pm »
I've cleaned the thread up, apologies for any lost posts. Besides the obvious let me know if there is anything you want reinstating.
Ta folks.

You've 'cleaned up' one of the most interesting exchanges i've ever seen.  Yeah, the guy was a nutter:


 "China woke up and realized there is no way an island nation of less than 60 million people should have a monopoly on the top echleons of soccer
"


But it was fascinating.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #295 on: March 19, 2021, 03:17:03 pm »
You've 'cleaned up' one of the most interesting exchanges i've ever seen.  Yeah, the guy was a nutter:


 "China woke up and realized there is no way an island nation of less than 60 million people should have a monopoly on the top echleons of soccer
"


But it was fascinating.


It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.

Anyway, an Amnesty report details how the evil scum running China are separating Uighur children from parents and placing them in orphanages. Presumably for 'reprogramming'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56454609


I do wonder where the condemnation for China is from all those Islamist groups that are quick to express their hatred for 'the West'.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #296 on: March 19, 2021, 03:34:02 pm »

It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.

Anyway, an Amnesty report details how the evil scum running China are separating Uighur children from parents and placing them in orphanages. Presumably for 'reprogramming'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56454609


I do wonder where the condemnation for China is from all those Islamist groups that are quick to express their hatred for 'the West'.

I used o wonder were the condemnation of the Serbs from Islamist groups was when they were massacring Muslims in Bosnia.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #297 on: March 19, 2021, 04:28:57 pm »
I used o wonder were the condemnation of the Serbs from Islamist groups was when they were massacring Muslims in Bosnia.


To be fair, many of the Islamists who formed into Al Qaeda & later IS were fighting in that conflict. At that time, coherent Islamist groups hadn't developed, and there wasn't the sort of easy mass-communication that the Internet and Social Media created.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #298 on: March 19, 2021, 04:58:27 pm »

It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.

Anyway, an Amnesty report details how the evil scum running China are separating Uighur children from parents and placing them in orphanages. Presumably for 'reprogramming'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56454609


I do wonder where the condemnation for China is from all those Islamist groups that are quick to express their hatred for 'the West'.


The Islamist perception of the world is even crazier than the Chinese Communist party's. They are fighting against an imaginary genocide (the West's so-called war on Islam) while ignoring the very real thing in China. Far more worrying is the failure of mainstream Islam to highlight the plight of their co-religionists under Chinese Fascism. There again, so few western governments do either. Although I see Biden's America is already ruffling a few Chinese feathers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/19/us-china-talks-alaska-biden-blinken-sullivan-wang

As for the 'cleaning up' process I agree it's a shame to lose everything. It sometimes takes a bonkers person, like our recent flag-waver for Chinese Fascism, to provoke an interesting discussion. 'Discussion;' may be the wrong word! But, regardless, some interesting things were thrown up. The process is familiar and shows why free speech is an essential thing in wider society. Sometimes it takes a Fascist to help concentrate the thoughts of anti-Fascists - whether that Fascist is defending Hitler and Mussolini, Apartheid in South Africa, White Supremacy generally, the Caliphate or the current Chinese Empire.

I, for one, learnt for the first time about how sections of Indian opinion apparently share our lunatic visitor's fixation with China. I forget who posted that, but it was fascinating.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 05:01:18 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Offline Sangria

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #299 on: March 19, 2021, 05:23:27 pm »

It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.

Anyway, an Amnesty report details how the evil scum running China are separating Uighur children from parents and placing them in orphanages. Presumably for 'reprogramming'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56454609


I do wonder where the condemnation for China is from all those Islamist groups that are quick to express their hatred for 'the West'.

There aren't the same "anti-home" liberal groups that there are in the west. There is traction for the self-hating liberal arguments because their argument isn't really concern for these foreign cultures, but opposition to the west. There is recognition among (relative) liberals in these Muslim countries that this submission to China is hypocritical, but also recognition that China doesn't really care what they think. Eg. Pakistani liberals support Imran Khan's submission to China on the grounds that, while China doesn't care about any ethical concerns they may have, at least he's getting something (literally) concrete.

Incidentally, while I opposed Iraq at the time, this exposure to Pakistani attitudes towards China, especially British Pakistani attitudes thus, showed me that the unforgivable sin towards the Iraqis was nothing of the sort, and is just the old anti-Anglo-Americanism under a post-colonialist rather than Soviet cloak.
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #300 on: March 19, 2021, 05:29:24 pm »
A lot of countries in middle-east rely on China for various reasons; infrastructure loans, weapons supplier, a supplier of facial recognition and online surveillance tech, trade partner to sell oil to.

Hence you barely hear any criticism of this genocide in the middle east from the governments. Our friend was using this to highlight why this genocide was no big deal.

China has a lot of soft power in the region.

The only country that spoken out on this is Turkey from what I can tell.

A lot of Islamist groups have ties to and are funded by various governments in the middle east.

Offline Sangria

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #301 on: March 19, 2021, 05:30:50 pm »
The Islamist perception of the world is even crazier than the Chinese Communist party's. They are fighting against an imaginary genocide (the West's so-called war on Islam) while ignoring the very real thing in China. Far more worrying is the failure of mainstream Islam to highlight the plight of their co-religionists under Chinese Fascism. There again, so few western governments do either. Although I see Biden's America is already ruffling a few Chinese feathers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/19/us-china-talks-alaska-biden-blinken-sullivan-wang

As for the 'cleaning up' process I agree it's a shame to lose everything. It sometimes takes a bonkers person, like our recent flag-waver for Chinese Fascism, to provoke an interesting discussion. 'Discussion;' may be the wrong word! But, regardless, some interesting things were thrown up. The process is familiar and shows why free speech is an essential thing in wider society. Sometimes it takes a Fascist to help concentrate the thoughts of anti-Fascists - whether that Fascist is defending Hitler and Mussolini, Apartheid in South Africa, White Supremacy generally, the Caliphate or the current Chinese Empire.

I, for one, learnt for the first time about how sections of Indian opinion apparently share our lunatic visitor's fixation with China. I forget who posted that, but it was fascinating.

Wasn't it said visitor who revealed this? Anyway, although I thought the poster was Chinese, do you now get my concerns about Chinese nationalism abroad? We can do nowt about what's happening in China. But I really, really, don't want that kind of foothold here. Flag-shagging, some call the notion of embracing of Britain as an idea. But there needs to be a positive idea of Britain from the left to counter any merging of the anti-Anglo-Americanism, that has been vogue since international leftist movements became a thing, with Chinese nationalism.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #302 on: March 19, 2021, 06:16:16 pm »
Wasn't it said visitor who revealed this? Anyway, although I thought the poster was Chinese, do you now get my concerns about Chinese nationalism abroad? We can do nowt about what's happening in China. But I really, really, don't want that kind of foothold here. Flag-shagging, some call the notion of embracing of Britain as an idea. But there needs to be a positive idea of Britain from the left to counter any merging of the anti-Anglo-Americanism, that has been vogue since international leftist movements became a thing, with Chinese nationalism.

I agree with this but can you see it happening any time soon? Just read the politics threads on here as well as other mainstream leftish thought and the answer becomes quite clear, and not in a good way.

If anyone is at a low point in their life and wants me to recommend them some reading, Nick Cohen's "What's Left?" deals with this subject really well I think, even if its about 15 years old.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #303 on: March 19, 2021, 06:37:27 pm »
I agree with this but can you see it happening any time soon? Just read the politics threads on here as well as other mainstream leftish thought and the answer becomes quite clear, and not in a good way.

If anyone is at a low point in their life and wants me to recommend them some reading, Nick Cohen's "What's Left?" deals with this subject really well I think, even if its about 15 years old.

Cohen's is a pretty good book, as is Pascal Bruckner's even older and even better book 'Tears of the White Man', which deals (from a left-wing point of view) with the problem of the 'self-hating' Left in the context of what he calls 'Third Worldism'. That's the philosophy which says things like..."Mugabe on the rampage, killing his opponents? Must be our fault" or "Another Islamist attack on Manchester? What did we do wrong?" Both books are provocative and flawed, but both - especially Bruckner's - are real eye-openers too.

However, I'm always suspicious of those who think the Left needs to start waving the flag. That's entering an auction we cannot win. In the UK the Tories will always go at least one stage further than the Left is prepared to do. On the international stage the Chinese Fascists will always be more 'nationalistic' than Britain - even Tory Britain - could ever tolerate.

The answer, if there is one, is for the Left to be more knowledgeable about British history and to be more realistic about the history of other nations and other imperialisms. For example we are the nation of imperialism it is true. But we are the nation of anti-imperialism as well. Britain had a political culture that allowed room for critics of Empire as well as soldiers of Empire. That's not bad, when you think about other conquering powers in history. It's certainly not bad when you think of China now - a regime that cannot tolerate even the meekest of criticism from its people. A regime that locks up and executes dissidents, or sends them into exile. A State where there is only ONE version of history - a version that pours glory on the regime. Our little friend the Chinese Fascist - whether Chinese, Indian, or whatever he was - was doing precisely that (which is why I think he should have been given even more rope to hang himself). It was a revolting display of nationalism.

But when it comes to British or English patriotism, I'm all for 'show' not 'tell'. Don't wave the flag. Don't bellow the national anthem. Don't 'tell' people you're proud of your country. There's no need. Just behave like a broad-minded tolerant Brit, and insist your government does as well.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #304 on: March 19, 2021, 06:46:10 pm »
Cohen's is a pretty good book, as is Pascal Bruckner's even older and even better book 'Tears of the White Man', which deals (from a left-wing point of view) with the problem of the 'self-hating' Left in the context of what he calls 'Third Worldism'. That's the philosophy which says things like..."Mugabe on the rampage, killing his opponents? Must be our fault" or "Another Islamist attack on Manchester? What did we do wrong?" Both books are provocative and flawed, but both - especially Bruckner's - are real eye-openers too.

However, I'm always suspicious of those who think the Left needs to start waving the flag. That's entering an auction we cannot win. In the UK the Tories will always go at least one stage further than the Left is prepared to do. On the international stage the Chinese Fascists will always be more 'nationalistic' than Britain - even Tory Britain - could ever tolerate.

The answer, if there is one, is for the Left to be more knowledgeable about British history and to be more realistic about the history of other nations and other imperialisms. For example we are the nation of imperialism it is true. But we are the nation of anti-imperialism as well. Britain had a political culture that allowed room for critics of Empire as well as soldiers of Empire. That's not bad, when you think about other conquering powers in history. It's certainly not bad when you think of China now - a regime that cannot tolerate even the meekest of criticism from its people. A regime that locks up and executes dissidents, or sends them into exile. A State where there is only ONE version of history - a version that pours glory on the regime. Our little friend the Chinese Fascist - whether Chinese, Indian, or whatever he was - was doing precisely that (which is why I think he should have been given even more rope to hang himself). It was a revolting display of nationalism.

But when it comes to British or English patriotism, I'm all for 'show' not 'tell'. Don't wave the flag. Don't bellow the national anthem. Don't 'tell' people you're proud of your country. There's no need. Just behave like a broad-minded tolerant Brit, and insist your government does as well.

There are lots of things about Britain that the liberal left should feel comfortable with highlighting, without having to go into far right territory. Jerusalem, the generally recognised anthem of England, was an ode to an ideal Britain after all. The first step to take, which shouldn't be anathema to the left, is to recognise that Britain is a good thing and can be a good thing. The first approach shouldn't be what has Britain done wrong, but what can Britain do better. Even if one question necessitates the other, it's important which is the first approach, as it colours the whole discussion.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Online John C

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #305 on: March 19, 2021, 06:58:23 pm »
You've 'cleaned up' one of the most interesting exchanges i've ever seen.  Yeah, the guy was a nutter:
It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.
As for the 'cleaning up' process I agree it's a shame to lose everything.
All resorted now guys :) I did ask if there was anything you wanted putting back.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #306 on: March 19, 2021, 07:00:43 pm »
There are lots of things about Britain that the liberal left should feel comfortable with highlighting, without having to go into far right territory. Jerusalem, the generally recognised anthem of England, was an ode to an ideal Britain after all. The first step to take, which shouldn't be anathema to the left, is to recognise that Britain is a good thing and can be a good thing. The first approach shouldn't be what has Britain done wrong, but what can Britain do better. Even if one question necessitates the other, it's important which is the first approach, as it colours the whole discussion.

In a way I don't care what is "anathema" to the Left. I just want honest history.

'Jerusalem', yes fine. Milton, Burns, Shelley too. All fine. It's long been recognised on the Left that there is an alternative thread of British or English history which we can be proud of. The milestones are familiar ones. 'The freeborn Englishman', the Anglo-Saxon folk parliaments, Magna Carta, the Petition of Rights, the Levellers, the London Corresponding Society, Peterloo, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs etc etc. This is all really good.

But maybe the Left should also recognise the long history of the rule of law in this country and long reach of representative institutions. Sometimes, often indeed, the rule of law and parliament has aided the growth and endurance of capitalism. But it has permitted an opposition to capitalism to develop too. And at the very least the valuing of parliamentary democracy and our right to free speech might encourage the British Left to better spot the authoritarian tendencies of those international causes which appear "left' but which, in reality, bend towards tyranny - Bolshevism, Maoism, Cuban socialism, the PLO, Chavez etc.  How fucking embarrassing are these causes now when you think about them. Yet the British Left had the tools at their disposal to find them embarrassing at the time.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #307 on: March 19, 2021, 07:01:33 pm »
All resorted now guys :) I did ask if there was anything you wanted putting back.

You did indeed!  ;D Fair play comrade.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #308 on: March 19, 2021, 07:07:28 pm »
Nice one Yorky, I've got Bruckner's "Tyranny of Guilt" on my reading list but that is going on there too.

I don't think I feel differently from most leftists when I see overt, performative expressions of British patriotism (i.e., I'm unimpressed, slightly suspicious and even a bit nauseated), but I get the sense that the left, British leftists anyway, don't want to put a label on tolerant values as "British" because we know the bad things done in the name of empire.

In some ways I can't blame these people, but at some point the penny has to drop that democracy, tolerance, trade unions, free expression and not ethnically cleansing our minorities is superior to authoritarian societies and its absolutely fine to point it out.

Don't wave the flag. Don't bellow the national anthem. Don't 'tell' people you're proud of your country. There's no need. Just behave like a broad-minded tolerant Brit, and insist your government does as well.

I'm sceptical as to how this translates into winning the argument (and votes), only because we're facing a government at home that knows how to play on base emotions, as well as international enemies of democracy that encourage self-hating liberals to think nothing we have is worth defending. I hope we can though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 07:08:59 pm by J_Kopite »

Offline princeoftherocks

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #309 on: March 19, 2021, 08:53:25 pm »
Thankyou.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #310 on: March 20, 2021, 12:07:40 am »
It sucks, I hate it. So concerned about "Freedom" they can't ban 12 year olds from accessing excessively sexualized mainstream content and a culture where Cardi B is considered inspirational

A culture which now has the majority of its youth wanting to be you tube stars. No thanks

You know what they aspire to be in China? Astronauts

https://www.businessinsider.in/american-kids-want-to-be-famous-on-youtube-and-kids-in-china-want-to-go-to-space-survey/articleshow/70265675.cms

I have four children. One would like to join his country's special forces. One wants to join the diplomatic corp. Two would like to be scientists. All four would enjoy becoming YouTube sensations.

What is your point exactly?
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #311 on: March 20, 2021, 12:36:45 am »
I have four children. One would like to join his country's special forces. One wants to join the diplomatic corp. Two would like to be scientists. All four would enjoy becoming YouTube sensations.

What is your point exactly?

His point is the same tedious one that's been used for a century now by lovers of autocracy against the democratic West. The West is liberal, decadent, corrupt, soft, immoral, shallow, and completely lacking in courage. Nazis said it in the 1930s. Bolsheviks said it it at the same time. The Muslim Brotherhood said it in the 1950s. Castro said it in the 1960s. And now Russia and China say it today.

It's bollocks of course. They always underestimate the West. They always overestimate themselves. 
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #312 on: March 20, 2021, 12:44:43 am »
I have four children. One would like to join his country's special forces. One wants to join the diplomatic corp. Two would like to be scientists. All four would enjoy becoming YouTube sensations.

What is your point exactly?

He is banned (but I am sure he will be back  ;D). It's funny that he distrusts western media a lot, but is happy to make massive generalizations based on click bait articles.

If you read the article they cite as the source, it states the true findings of the survey. Kids are still very interested in learning about space. It's headline is a lot different too

-Survey confirms 86% of kids are interested in space, 90% want to learn more-

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lego-group-kicks-off-global-program-to-inspire-the-next-generation-of-space-explorers-as-nasa-celebrates-50-years-of-moon-landing-300885423.html

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #313 on: March 20, 2021, 07:21:48 pm »
He is banned (but I am sure he will be back  ;D). It's funny that he distrusts western media a lot, but is happy to make massive generalizations based on click bait articles.

If you read the article they cite as the source, it states the true findings of the survey. Kids are still very interested in learning about space. It's headline is a lot different too

-Survey confirms 86% of kids are interested in space, 90% want to learn more-

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lego-group-kicks-off-global-program-to-inspire-the-next-generation-of-space-explorers-as-nasa-celebrates-50-years-of-moon-landing-300885423.html

He takes what he likes when he likes ;)

If you interviewed kids in Russia or the US in the 60's many would have had Cosmo/Astronaut as their dream job. Huge propaganda surrounding their initial ventures into space created dreams for kids on either side of the iron curtain. By the 70's interest in the space age was already waning. Today space is about our greed at wanting to mine asteroids and our neighbouring planets for precious metals (most of our precious metals on Earth come from meteorites that bombarded the earth.

Would be great to have our fascist state supporter compare their states with similar leading industrial manufacturing companies such as Germany for a fair review of what good looks like.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #314 on: March 20, 2021, 08:39:55 pm »
Would also be nice that dick talking about how those scientists who are currently in China investigating the origins of the virus have run into roadblocks perennially. Entire circumstantial. China is mostly rural with some little urbanisation along the coastlines.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #315 on: March 21, 2021, 07:24:23 pm »

It was very interesting, and I don't know why these threads get 'cleaned up'.

Anyway, an Amnesty report details how the evil scum running China are separating Uighur children from parents and placing them in orphanages. Presumably for 'reprogramming'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56454609


I do wonder where the condemnation for China is from all those Islamist groups that are quick to express their hatred for 'the West'.


Indeed. Hateful islamist groups order of priority tends to lead with jewish people ahead of, or level with, those who follow other sects of islam. Then 'the west'.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #316 on: March 22, 2021, 11:11:51 pm »
Uighurs: Western countries sanction China over rights abuses
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56487162
:D

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #317 on: March 26, 2021, 07:49:13 am »
Chinese actor quits as Burberry ambassador as Xinjiang cotton row escalates

The label’s trademark tartan has also been erased from a popular video game as anger in China over stance of western brands grows


Quote
Burberry has lost a Chinese brand ambassador and its hallmark tartan design was scrubbed from a popular video game, as it became the first luxury brand to be hit by the Chinese backlash to western accusations of abuses in Xinjiang.

China on Friday sanctioned organisations and individuals in the United Kingdom over what it called “lies and disinformation” about Xinjiang, days after Britain imposed sanctions for alleged human rights abuses in the western Chinese region.

Burberry is a member of the Better Cotton Initiative, a group that promotes sustainable cotton production which said in October it was suspending its approval of cotton sourced from Xinjiang, citing human rights concerns.

Award-winning Chinese actress Zhou Dongyu terminated her contract with Burberry as the brand’s ambassador. Burberry had not “clearly and publicly stated its stance on cotton from Xinjiang”, her agency said on Thursday.

The company’s famous plaid design was also removed from the clothing worn by characters in Tencent’s popular video game Honor of Kings, according to a post on the game’s official Weibo account, winning praise from China’s netizens.

Burberry China did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment. Burberry cotton is sourced from the United States, Australia, Turkey, India and Egypt, according to its website.

The backlash – particularly in social and traditional media – has also enveloped mass-market brands like H&M, Adidas and Nike which have previously expressed critical views on labour conditions in Xinjiang, China’s biggest cotton-producing region.

Activists and United Nations rights experts have accused China of using mass detainment, torture, forced labour and sterilisations on Uighurs in Xinjiang. China denies these claims and says its actions in the region are necessary to counter extremism.

In a letter to British MPs in November, Burberry said it did not have any operations in Xinjiang or work with any suppliers based there, adding that it did not condone any form of modern slavery among its suppliers, including forced, bonded or involuntary prison labour.

The China National Textile and Apparel Council in a statement on Friday urged international brands to cease “wrong behaviour”, including the exclusion of cotton from Xinjiang in their supply chain, out of respect for Chinese customers.

Hong Kong lawmaker Regina Ip said she would stop buying Burberry.

“Burberry is one of my favourite brands. But I will stop buying Burberry products. I stand with my country in boycotting companies that spread lies about Xinjiang,” Ip wrote on her Twitter account.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/26/chinese-actor-quits-as-burberry-ambassador-as-xinjiang-cotton-row-escalates

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #318 on: March 26, 2021, 06:37:41 pm »
Oh dear, the Chinese are getting a bit huffy because people don't like their genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/26/chinese-actor-quits-as-burberry-ambassador-as-xinjiang-cotton-row-escalates
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Offline zadoktBeast

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #319 on: March 26, 2021, 09:10:09 pm »
Oh dear, the Chinese are getting a bit huffy because people don't like their genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/26/chinese-actor-quits-as-burberry-ambassador-as-xinjiang-cotton-row-escalates


Was an interesting read that, following swiftly after the Nike news (Nike being hauled over the coals on Chinese social media for voicing concerns about Xinjiang)

The Nike thing is confusing to me though; apparently their statement expressing concern about the slave cotton was made a year ago...yet as recently as January, Nike (along with Apple and Coca-Cola) were quietly opposing a Senate Bill designed to pressure the CCP about human rights abuses in Xinjiang.

I took that, by occam's razor, to mean that Nike obviously had some business interests in Xinjiang and didn't want the new US administration snooping around.

So...don't know what to make of that one. Their bottom line will take a huge hit over the Sina Weibo furore, but for me personally, I'm not letting Nike off the hook just yet. It's clear they have monumental clothing and marketing contracts involving China, the NBA and the NFL. One of the main reasons i want us to go back to a good old trashy Warrior kit