Topic: Curtis Jones

[disgraced cake]

Good to see him play 90 mins in the league. Hope there's a few more where that came from going forward this season. I love his ability and while I feel he's a bit stifled from showing it in the first team he's generally done the job Klopp has asked of him very well. I think he's going to be a big part of Liverpool's midfield going forward, and there's nothing better for me than seeing a local lad in the team, great to have another besides Trent.

[Thepooloflife]

I like Curtis - think he has an old head on young shoulders. In that game yesterday, as a team we were all too often too quick to get rid of the ball or hurried into doing so and it end up nowhere or given to the opposition - second half less so. As others have mentioned, Curtis has the ability to hold on to the ball and not lose it, before deciding on his options ie. pass to another player to keep possession for the team. I do wish he would have a go at goal more often, when the occasion arises - but, overall a good performance from a local lad.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Give him another 18 months to two years and he will be a nailed on starter.

I'd be surprised if it takes that long

[RedG13]

I'd be surprised if it takes that long

He turns 21 at the end of this month. 18 Months to 2 years would be very logical on the normal time frame for it. Also Thiago is still here.

[Henderson19]

He'll be a good player I reckon, maybe a very good one. There was a bit of play (not sure of the minute) when he went on a run, beat two/three opponents and got off a shot.

Shot was tame but the bit of play was impressive. He's got that ability, hopefully it's just confidence and self-belief that he deserves to be at this level that can allow him to do that more often.

[redmark]

He turns 21 at the end of this month. 18 Months to 2 years would be very logical on the normal time frame for it. Also Thiago is still here.

There isn't really a 'normal' timetable for when a footballer establishes himself. For a top class player in a top side, 22/23 would be pretty late; that's more the age bracket at which a formerly promising youngster morphs into 'just' a decent squad option, or drops down to a mid table club (or does so after being a squad option for a couple of years). When fit, Klopp has been happy to use him, often before Keita or Ox. That suggests (if he can avoid unlucky injuries) he's seen as having a regular role much more quickly than that.

[Drinks Sangria]

There isn't really a 'normal' timetable for when a footballer establishes himself. For a top class player in a top side, 22/23 would be pretty late; that's more the age bracket at which a formerly promising youngster morphs into 'just' a decent squad option, or drops down to a mid table club (or does so after being a squad option for a couple of years). When fit, Klopp has been happy to use him, often before Keita or Ox. That suggests (if he can avoid unlucky injuries) he's seen as having a regular role much more quickly than that.

There's some really good work done by Sports Scientist Steve Lawrence - who is now a consultant to big teams but previously headed up Ajax's academy - who released a paper on the developmental curve of footballers and by and large, most players fall into the same bracket for leaps in development and effectiveness within the same age brackets. And it tends to be that forwards should and need to develop quicker than deeper lying players. It's super interesting if anyone wants to dig it out from Votteller.

It actually talks about a lot of Sports - about outliers in running (Mo Farah went from 'average' European level to World Beater at a remarkably late age) as well as football, such as Drogba, Vardy and Rickie Lambert, who all reached certain levels of professional competency years after you'd expect. It shows the link between how your major developmental years occurring at a lower level of competition leads often to a later peak and a prolonged period of ability at an older age, whereas doing huge minutes as a teenager at an elite level often means the player's peak has passed by their mid-late 20s (Rooney, Owen, Quaresma etc).

Leading on to my point - all players are different but most (over 80%) fit into the bracket, as midfielders, of making their major improvements between the ages of 22-24 before sustaining a 'peak' for around 4-5 years after this.

My point being that Curtis is probably ahead of the typical development curve or right on it, in that he is only 21 and we will continue to see him improve substantially for at least another couple of years.

[redmark]

Leading on to my point - all players are different but most (over 80%) fit into the bracket, as midfielders, of making their major improvements between the ages of 22-24 before sustaining a 'peak' for around 4-5 years after this.

My point being that Curtis is probably ahead of the typical development curve or right on it, in that he is only 21 and we will continue to see him improve substantially for at least another couple of years.

Of course, wasn't saying that he's at his peak short of 21. But those player development curves will already include the point that the best players get more playing time earlier (preferably without being overplayed, as Owen or Fowler were), as part of (and maintaining) that development.

[Drinks Sangria]

Of course, wasn't saying that he's at his peak short of 21. But those player development curves will already include the point that the best players get more playing time earlier (preferably without being overplayed, as Owen or Fowler were), as part of (and maintaining) that development.

I wasn't trying to get across that's what I believed you were saying, more just saying he's in line to improve a lot still. And you're spot on - the difficult to quantify element of 'too much' football before a player's 21 does seem to have a direct impact on a player's ability to sustain elite performance over a prolonged period of time.

I think Curtis is one of those players who needs more minutes really, in the next 12 months. He got about the right amount last season but needs to see the pitch a bit more (and us cope with the issues that brings) if we want him to become the high quality first team player he has the potential to be.

[redmark]

I wasn't trying to get across that's what I believed you were saying, more just saying he's in line to improve a lot still. And you're spot on - the difficult to quantify element of 'too much' football before a player's 21 does seem to have a direct impact on a player's ability to sustain elite performance over a prolonged period of time.

I think Curtis is one of those players who needs more minutes really, in the next 12 months. He got about the right amount last season but needs to see the pitch a bit more (and us cope with the issues that brings) if we want him to become the high quality first team player he has the potential to be.

Agreed. I think the key for him is the balance between being overly safe (to avoid a mistake that sees him out for a few games?) and trying to make things happen. He was very patient and tidy in the first half against Brentford, but came out in the second half and had a couple of positive carries with shots at the end of them - suggesting, perhaps, that the manager had to encourage him to do so at half time. His ball retention is fine - but it's never going to be the differentiating factor to base an entire career on, because he doesn't have the defensive nous or energy (or scoring goals by arriving in the box late) that, say, Wijnaldum also had in that role. He does have the ability to provide goals and creativity as he develops the knowledge and confidence to know when to recycle and when to up the tempo, though.

[redk84]

i feel he is learning parts of the game that if ingrained in him will stand him in good stead going forward in his career. klopp is playing the long game with him but is still keeping him involved.

With our midfield situation as it is now, he can push to make a starting spot his own for a while

[RedG13]

There isn't really a 'normal' timetable for when a footballer establishes himself. For a top class player in a top side, 22/23 would be pretty late; that's more the age bracket at which a formerly promising youngster morphs into 'just' a decent squad option, or drops down to a mid table club (or does so after being a squad option for a couple of years). When fit, Klopp has been happy to use him, often before Keita or Ox. That suggests (if he can avoid unlucky injuries) he's seen as having a regular role much more quickly than that.

That a general time frame it can change but can change. Thiago we all knew him at 18 at Barca wasn't a regular starter till Bayern at like 23ish but got hurt and came back and was regular starter at Bayern at that point.
Deeper MF, CB and GK take longer normally.

[Eeyore]

Agreed. I think the key for him is the balance between being overly safe (to avoid a mistake that sees him out for a few games?) and trying to make things happen. He was very patient and tidy in the first half against Brentford, but came out in the second half and had a couple of positive carries with shots at the end of them - suggesting, perhaps, that the manager had to encourage him to do so at half time. His ball retention is fine - but it's never going to be the differentiating factor to base an entire career on, because he doesn't have the defensive nous or energy (or scoring goals by arriving in the box late) that, say, Wijnaldum also had in that role. He does have the ability to provide goals and creativity as he develops the knowledge and confidence to know when to recycle and when to up the tempo, though.

That isn't a Jones issue, it is the conundrum that involves our whole midfield. We are a counter pressing team, which means the positions our players take up are ridiculous. Our centre backs spend more time in the oppositions half than ours.

That means we are in a perfect position for a counter press but incredibly vulnerable to a misplaced pass.   

[redmark]

That isn't a Jones issue, it is the conundrum that involves our whole midfield. We are a counter pressing team, which means the positions our players take up are ridiculous. Our centre backs spend more time in the oppositions half than ours.

That means we are in a perfect position for a counter press but incredibly vulnerable to a misplaced pass.   

For long spells against lesser opposition we're not camped in their half to counter-press, we're there because we have 70%+ possession for spells and they're camped on the edge of their own box. Hansen and Lawrenson spent long spells of games in similar areas not because we invented counter-pressing in the early 80s, but because teams came to Anfield and sat deep (Mourinho didn't invent that, either).

Safe recycling of the ball in such situations isn't a tactical instruction; Klopp always applauds the attempt to penetrate a packed defence. As he said at the weekend, everyone is invited to score goals. His mini-rants are directed at those passages where we play ourselves into trouble around the halfway line through a lack of weight on the ball, retreating not because it's the smart tactical move, but through sloppy and aimless passing not giving better options. Attacking always presents the possibility of being countered - and a counter-press will never be successful 100% of the time. That's why we bought the world's most expensive centre back and keeper combination.

The overly cautious patterns generate what we saw against Arsenal - five or six of ours strung out across their defensive line, static and flat, as we shift the ball impotently and slowly from one side to the other; until Matip wanders upfield to see if anything happens (it doesn't, though to your point would be much more dangerous a counter-attacking opportunity for the opposition if he was tackled occasionally).

A player like Jones, Keita or Ox taking on opponents and playing incisive forward passes (which Henderson can do, too) are key to breaching a packed defence, particularly in the absence bit of magic from Salah (or less often, Mane). It's about him recognising those moments, as well as the moments to retain possession, and having the confidence to take them. Everything I've read about Jones talks of him being exceptionally confident in his own abilities, so maybe there's a bit of hesitation with respect to not wanting to make a mistake and find himself on the bench for subsequent games - but Klopp seems to be encouraging him and others to take on some of that responsibility. It can't all be left to Henderson scurrying around trying to present Trent with just the right moment and space to deliver the killer cross.

[mrantarctica]

For long spells against lesser opposition we're not camped in their half to counter-press, we're there because we have 70%+ possession for spells and they're camped on the edge of their own box. Hansen and Lawrenson spent long spells of games in similar areas not because we invented counter-pressing in the early 80s, but because teams came to Anfield and sat deep (Mourinho didn't invent that, either).

Safe recycling of the ball in such situations isn't a tactical instruction; Klopp always applauds the attempt to penetrate a packed defence. As he said at the weekend, everyone is invited to score goals. His mini-rants are directed at those passages where we play ourselves into trouble around the halfway line through a lack of weight on the ball, retreating not because it's the smart tactical move, but through sloppy and aimless passing not giving better options. Attacking always presents the possibility of being countered - and a counter-press will never be successful 100% of the time. That's why we bought the world's most expensive centre back and keeper combination.

The overly cautious patterns generate what we saw against Arsenal - five or six of ours strung out across their defensive line, static and flat, as we shift the ball impotently and slowly from one side to the other; until Matip wanders upfield to see if anything happens (it doesn't, though to your point would be much more dangerous a counter-attacking opportunity for the opposition if he was tackled occasionally).

A player like Jones, Keita or Ox taking on opponents and playing incisive forward passes (which Henderson can do, too) are key to breaching a packed defence, particularly in the absence bit of magic from Salah (or less often, Mane). It's about him recognising those moments, as well as the moments to retain possession, and having the confidence to take them. Everything I've read about Jones talks of him being exceptionally confident in his own abilities, so maybe there's a bit of hesitation with respect to not wanting to make a mistake and find himself on the bench for subsequent games - but Klopp seems to be encouraging him and others to take on some of that responsibility. It can't all be left to Henderson scurrying around trying to present Trent with just the right moment and space to deliver the killer cross.

Very good points there.

I think Hendo does sit quite wide in our current set up and that vacates too much of the central area. Fabinho is a wonderful DM but he is not at all quick and so if we lose possession in the middle third, while Hendo sits in his RM area, then Fabinho has far too much ground to cover to snuff out a counter attack.

As far as chances go, I still don't think this Hendo in the wide right area sits quite right with me. I think Hendo is better in a slightly higher position trying to snatch 50-50s and initiate a counter press as soon as we lose the ball to turn it over again. I feel that in this wide position we just see the ball just going sideways across our midfield  because our two main strikers like to get wide and go at defenders from wide positions themselves, and our fullbacks are generally high and wide too. Hendo seems to be more a static point of distribution rather than a player who distributes quickly and then makes a good movement into space to then receive the ball back, nowadays.

I think we'd be better if at least one of the midfield three is tasked with picking the ball up in that No.10 space where they can perhaps commit a defender and create indecision. Firmino often picks the ball up in these spaces but usually has his back to goal and because there's no-one else in that space, ends up laying the ball off for our deeper midfielders and the ball goes side to side again. If we had 2 players that are capable of linking up in that space (Firmino and perhaps one midfielder) then I think we could create a few more chances and bring another dimension to our play. This is partly why I think Matip is so valued with his weaving forays forward. Sadly, he just doesn't have that quality of ball and quite often he will make a brilliant dash forward only to play the same ball to the outside where the momentum is again lost and it is relatively easy to defend against.

I think Curtis and Naby are the ones that could potentially bring that thrust that our midfield needs without completely forsaking their defensive responsibilities, as perhaps can Harvey. Ox doesn't seem to be trusted to fulfil some of the defensive aspects and I don't really see him that effective at winning the ball back, initiating a counter press, tracking players back either which is why I think even though he's not injured, he doesn't seem to feature a great deal.

[redmark]

Very good points there.

I think Hendo does sit quite wide in our current set up and that vacates too much of the central area. Fabinho is a wonderful DM but he is not at all quick and so if we lose possession in the middle third, while Hendo sits in his RM area, then Fabinho has far too much ground to cover to snuff out a counter attack.

As far as chances go, I still don't think this Hendo in the wide right area sits quite right with me. I think Hendo is better in a slightly higher position trying to snatch 50-50s and initiate a counter press as soon as we lose the ball to turn it over again. I feel that in this wide position we just see the ball just going sideways across our midfield  because our two main strikers like to get wide and go at defenders from wide positions themselves, and our fullbacks are generally high and wide too. Hendo seems to be more a static point of distribution rather than a player who distributes quickly and then makes a good movement into space to then receive the ball back, nowadays.

I think we'd be better if at least one of the midfield three is tasked with picking the ball up in that No.10 space where they can perhaps commit a defender and create indecision. Firmino often picks the ball up in these spaces but usually has his back to goal and because there's no-one else in that space, ends up laying the ball off for our deeper midfielders and the ball goes side to side again. If we had 2 players that are capable of linking up in that space (Firmino and perhaps one midfielder) then I think we could create a few more chances and bring another dimension to our play. This is partly why I think Matip is so valued with his weaving forays forward. Sadly, he just doesn't have that quality of ball and quite often he will make a brilliant dash forward only to play the same ball to the outside where the momentum is again lost and it is relatively easy to defend against.

I think Curtis and Naby are the ones that could potentially bring that thrust that our midfield needs without completely forsaking their defensive responsibilities, as perhaps can Harvey. Ox doesn't seem to be trusted to fulfil some of the defensive aspects and I don't really see him that effective at winning the ball back, initiating a counter press, tracking players back either which is why I think even though he's not injured, he doesn't seem to feature a great deal.

Clearly there's a bit of work in progress at the moment with Henderson/Trent switching roles at times, with Trent coming inside to take up the position Henderson has typically occupied - and vice versa. Henderson can cross the ball fine, and Trent will increasingly pick through balls, so I'm fine with that as a tactical option, but it will have moments where it feels a bit stilted.

The bigger issue - hardly a novel observation - is when we've got Henderson and Milner either side of Fabinho. Henderson gets much of the ire on social media, but it really does feel like Milner's days at this level may finally be done. I can understand (if not agree) why he might be in there for the toughest games, but as we saw at Chelsea, he contributed to our fragility rather than mitigated it. His lack of pace is becoming terminal, and it was his pointless foul that gave away the free kick that led to their first goal.

On that left side of midfield, Thiago seems to be first choice (and can play Fabinho's role against the weakest opposition), probably followed by Jones if Klopp doesn't entirely trust Keita. But surely Keita's occasional tactical misjudgements have to be considered as less critical than Milner's declining physical capacity by now.

[mrantarctica]

Clearly there's a bit of work in progress at the moment with Henderson/Trent switching roles at times, with Trent coming inside to take up the position Henderson has typically occupied - and vice versa. Henderson can cross the ball fine, and Trent will increasingly pick through balls, so I'm fine with that as a tactical option, but it will have moments where it feels a bit stilted.

The bigger issue - hardly a novel observation - is when we've got Henderson and Milner either side of Fabinho. Henderson gets much of the ire on social media, but it really does feel like Milner's days at this level may finally be done. I can understand (if not agree) why he might be in there for the toughest games, but as we saw at Chelsea, he contributed to our fragility rather than mitigated it. His lack of pace is becoming terminal, and it was his pointless foul that gave away the free kick that led to their first goal.

On that left side of midfield, Thiago seems to be first choice (and can play Fabinho's role against the weakest opposition), probably followed by Jones if Klopp doesn't entirely trust Keita. But surely Keita's occasional tactical misjudgements have to be considered as less critical than Milner's declining physical capacity by now.

This is what really confuses me about how we setup in the middle. I can't really understand why Milner gets picked there. Perhaps I'm just not seeing something that the manager sees but I 100% agree with your observations that Milner doesn't look close to good enough playing at CM for us. There's no lack of application or effort, just the end product is a little too slow, a little too one paced and just lacking a bit of crispness and guile that we really need. For me, Milner is too similar to Hendo in some respects, and playing 3 across midfielders, you really need players that do slightly different things.

Thiago seems to be a good foil to Fabinho because it allows Hendo freedom to play higher up the pitch, and because he has a level of unpredictability in his passing and can play that incisive pass through the lines, but also because his anticipation is so good that he just seems to always be in the right spaces. I'd like to see more of Naby there, doing what he did for Guinea today which is picking it up in an advanced area and driving at the defence and absolutely belting it into the top corner. Sadly Naby seems to get a little caught out by the pace of the game when we are defending. Too often I've seen him meandering about and being a little loose with his positioning.

Our midfield is certainly a conundrum in trying to find the right balance. It doesn't help that people keep picking up injuries and covid or both.

[gerrardisgod]

Outstanding tonight, barely lost the ball.

[Chip Evans]

Was excellent there. Him, Robbo and Jota bossed that.

[Phineus]

His press resistance really helps us control games. Would like to see him get a run now and hopefully start been more decisive in final third.

[Funky_Gibbons]

So good at carrying the ball forward, he glides at times. Lallana-esque.

[MonsLibpool]

Outstanding tonight, barely lost the ball.

Brilliant performance. Carried it well too. Dwelled on it on a couple of occasions though.

All in all, I'm proud that we have another proper scouser in the team.

[RedEire]

All the talk of smith Rowe, Saka, odegaard and Martinelli, curtis took the game by the neck and outshone them all. Thought he was brilliant.

[Ghost Town]

Great little leave and turns as well. Created acres of space that way

[FlashGordon]

Such a silky footballer. The ball is glued to his foot. A little run in the team now and he'll be flying.

[Gods_Left_Boot]

Brilliant performance. His technique and composure on the ball are outrageous.

[RyanBabel19]

Velcro on his boots

Some ridiculous touches tonight to play himself out of trouble and negate their press. I really rate him, he advances the ball exceptionally well

[PEG2K]

Now this is a good performance. He's obviously very good at keeping possession and evading pressure. Now let's see how he can build from there.

[Eeyore]

I strongly believe we have still only seen a fraction of what Curtis has to offer. He was brilliant tonight.

[farawayred]

Curtis was great. A lot of offensive nous and bundles of creativity; he adds that regularly now. Great showing!   

[Passmaster Molby]

He’s brilliant, a proper footballer. Best news is he will get better.

[Clint Eastwood]

Cracking display. Really getting into his stride after his lay off. He’s developing into a really complete midfielder.

[Pistolero]

Came of age tonight I thought......excellent shift

[Legoland]

Proper Gini replacement. His ability to protect the ball is top drawer.

[B0151?]

It's incredible there's some that can't see it with this lad

Of course if he wants to take it to another level then he'll need to add even more, don't think anyone would really dispute that. But since he started playing for us he's shown he's a great option and on the whole won't let us down, with that tantalising potential for even more.

[jooneyisdagod]

Velcro on his boots

Some ridiculous touches tonight to play himself out of trouble and negate their press. I really rate him, he advances the ball exceptionally well

The play himself out of trouble is the crucial bit. He has the ability. He just needs to use it more and then learn when and where to use it. He did that really well for the most part against Arsenal. Real quality performance.

[JackWard33]

As some of us have been saying he’s top top class on the ball …. And he’s 20

[CraigDS]

As some of us have been saying he’s top top class on the ball …. And he’s 20

Yeah I think some forget just how young he is!

[Wool]

That’s the Curtis from last season, thought he was brilliant tonight.

[duvva 💅]

I strongly believe we have still only seen a fraction of what Curtis has to offer. He was brilliant tonight.

Yep feels like he’s got so much more to give. I think he’s slightly holding himself back to ensure he plays in the way the manager wants but give him another year or two and he’s going to be a fantastic player for us.