Author Topic: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich  (Read 193775 times)

Offline thelinnen

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1960 on: May 7, 2016, 07:06:11 pm »
Watch Ancelotti win the Champions League with Bayern Munich next season and his head will explode.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline HighSix

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1961 on: May 7, 2016, 07:07:08 pm »

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1962 on: May 7, 2016, 08:45:10 pm »
Pep's league career:

08/09 1st
09/10 1st
10/11 1st
11/12 2nd

13/14 1st
14/15 1st
15/16 1st

What a fraud he is.
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline Henry Gale

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1963 on: May 7, 2016, 08:47:38 pm »
Pep's league career:

08/09 1st
09/10 1st
10/11 1st
11/12 2nd

13/14 1st
14/15 1st
15/16 1st

What a fraud he is.

16/17 8th

 ;D

Offline Samie

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1964 on: May 7, 2016, 08:48:49 pm »
I'd be finishing in those positions every season had I been managing only the best club in Spain and Germany.

Offline Claire.

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1965 on: May 7, 2016, 08:50:55 pm »
I'd be finishing in those positions every season had I been managing only the best club in Spain and Germany.

'Give him the Rochdale job and see how he does'

Every pub bore, ever.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1966 on: May 7, 2016, 08:53:03 pm »
'Give him the Rochdale job and see how he does'

Every pub bore, ever.

To be fair, if you finish below 2nd as either Barca or Bayern, you're a disgrace. The amount of resources they have compared to everybody else in the league (except Real in Barca's case) is an absolute joke.
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Offline B0151?

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1967 on: May 7, 2016, 08:58:41 pm »
I'd be finishing in those positions every season had I been managing only the best club in Spain and Germany.

It is proper easy to finish above Real Madrid like. They finished runners-up with 90+ points 2 of the seasons!

Offline rushyman

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1968 on: May 7, 2016, 09:01:58 pm »
Pep's league career:

08/09 1st
09/10 1st
10/11 1st
11/12 2nd

13/14 1st
14/15 1st
15/16 1st

What a fraud he is.

Not that Im weighing in either side of the fence but thats one half of the aqrgument that everyones aware of.

The other side is hes walked into World Class sides with cash all over the place.

This time he only has the latter so we'll see. He'll be watching the City game tomorrow I feel. Lose or draw and he'll be up all night with his agent and lawyer lookign for loopholes ;D
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1969 on: May 7, 2016, 09:01:59 pm »
It is proper easy to finish above Real Madrid like. They finished runners-up with 90+ points 2 of the seasons!
Yeah. Nevermind the fact that other much praised managers messed in similar situations way more than once.

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1970 on: May 7, 2016, 09:30:42 pm »
Happy that Pep won Bundesliga. It seems like it is a competition that nobody respects even in Germany, neither journos nor fans, but you cannot argue with 6 league titles in 7 years record.

The now grossly overhyped Heynckess won 3 league titles in 34 years, managing some of the top clubs in the land. Similarly, Ancelotti could only win 3 league titles in 20 years. But hey-ho, nobody seems to give a shit about Bundesliga titles. So I am very happy Pep is moving to England, where ManCity's league title wins would mean something.

Heynckes isn't grossly overhyped, he is rightfully hyped for the style and performance that his treble team demonstrated, few people are saying that he is better than your precious Pep, just that his final Bayern side was both more successful and enjoyable than the ones that followed it.

Incidentally, you should avoid counting your chickens as Man City may win fuckall under his management, even with the utterly ludicrous budget they are going to give him for transfers.

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1971 on: May 7, 2016, 09:32:10 pm »
I'd be finishing in those positions every season had I been managing only the best club in Spain and Germany.
Load. Of. Shite.

You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline AB LFC

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1972 on: May 8, 2016, 02:01:24 pm »
Ol Pep does love a challenge doesnt he

Offline BER

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1973 on: May 8, 2016, 02:21:22 pm »
I'd be finishing in those positions every season had I been managing only the best club in Spain and Germany.

But they way he rebuilt and turned both clubs fortunes around is to be deeply admired.

Is Neymar to City now an actual possibility?

Offline clinical

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1974 on: May 8, 2016, 02:37:48 pm »
He's no where near as good as many believe. He will make city better though as they cant get much worse really having spent so much.

Either way don't really like pep i know people love him on here weirdly probably because it was him vs mourinho or some shite.

Reckon he'll be a flop unless he spends £ms

« Last Edit: May 8, 2016, 02:40:35 pm by clinical »
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Offline CallumLFC

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1975 on: May 8, 2016, 02:54:31 pm »
He's no where near as good as many believe. He will make city better though as they cant get much worse really having spent so much.

Either way don't really like pep i know people love him on here weirdly probably because it was him vs mourinho or some shite.

Reckon he'll be a flop unless he spends £ms



His away record in the big games is shite when you look at the quality sides he has possessed. I read something about how Bayern hadn't won an away game in their last 7 knockout games. It was pretty average at Barca too.

Against quality sides, his sides can be so prone on the counter. Real demolished them with ease two seasons back at the Allianz. Absolute battering. Same goes for the Juve game in the 2nd leg this season. Juve exposed them far too easily in the first half. They were all over the sea and Juve should have really sealed it before half time with that Cuadrado chance.

Let's see how he does in the away games in the PL next season. With the money flying about, the mid tier are just going to get stronger and stronger. I mean West Ham making a 31m bid for Batshuayi for christ sake!

It would be great to see him flop, as the most recent leak has showed, he is a grade A twat.

He has to be one of the most dislikable managers out there.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2016, 03:01:58 pm by Kals »

Offline clinical

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1976 on: May 8, 2016, 03:00:25 pm »
His away record in the big games is shite when you look at the quality sides he has possessed. I read something about how Bayern hadn't won an away game in their last 7 knockout games. It was pretty average at Barca too.

Against quality sides, his sides cab be so prone on the counter. Real demolished them with ease two seasons back at the Allianz. Absolute battering. Same goes for the Juve game in the 2nd leg this season. Juve exposed them far too easily in the first half. They were all over the sea and Juve should have really sealed it before half time with that Cuadrado chance.

Let's see how he does in the away games in the PL next season. With the money flying about, the mid tier are just going to get stronger and stronger. I mean West Ham making a 31m bid for Batshuayi for christ sake!

It would be great to see him flop, as the most recent leak has showed, he is a grade A twat.

He has to be one of the most dislikable managers out there.

West ham will have loads of money. Sold they old stadium for £70m and got a new one for free! Basically from the tax payer.
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline Cusamano

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1977 on: May 8, 2016, 03:19:55 pm »
I reckon he will be found out in england

Before i get pounced  on by the fanboys, its just a hunch thats all.
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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1978 on: May 8, 2016, 04:23:31 pm »
We talk about how he'll have to spend millions of £, but there's 2 things that come with this-

1. No big money player is on his final year of contract. So getting rid of someone like Yaya Toure is going to be a challenge, considering he's on a reported £220,000/week. There's a lot of dead weight on big contracts. Who's going to pay £90,000/week for Jesus Navas? Sagna is 33 and is on £80,000/week for another season. Perennial medical case Vincent Kompany is on £120,000/week until 2019. Etc., etc. (Source: http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/)

2. Yes, they may have all the money in the world, but there are only so many world class players to go around. If they need to get rid of let's say 5 of their core players, what 5 are they going to bring in? Sure, Gundogan might move from Dortmund to City (oh, wait, nope, he's injured), but do we really think Neymar will move from sunny, successful Spain to a team that might have to qualify for the CL next season? Of course, money can convince anyone to do most anything, but I just don't see it. If you're a world class superstar getting regular playing time on Barcelona or Madrid, City is a step down.

And this is what will make things interesting as an outsider looking in. I think Pep will have to figure out a way to work with what he has, at least for a season. Build around De Bruyne. See if the Raheem Sterling City thought they'd be getting will finally come to light. I don't think money is going to fix the problem City currently find themselves in.
Oh, these sour times.

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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1979 on: May 8, 2016, 05:52:32 pm »
Pep's league career: (in bold, league results before/after his stint)
Barca
03/04 2nd
04/05 1st
05/06 1st
06/07 2nd
07/08 3rd

08/09 1st
09/10 1st
10/11 1st
11/12 2nd
12/13 1st
13/14 2nd
14/15 1st

15/16 currently 1st

Bayern (won 7 of the previous 11 league titles, before Pep)
09/10 1st
10/11 3rd
11/12 2nd
12/13 1st

13/14 1st (Bayern took Dortmund's best player, for free)
14/15 1st (Bayern took Dortmund's best player, for free)
15/16 1st

What a fraud he is.

What a miracle worker he is.
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Offline BeautifulGame91

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1980 on: May 8, 2016, 06:04:08 pm »
What a miracle worker he is.

Gotze wasnt a free signing .
.

Offline clinical

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1981 on: May 8, 2016, 06:22:20 pm »
I reckon he will be found out in england

Before i get pounced  on by the fanboys, its just a hunch thats all.

He has a nice suit though. Pep not proved anything to me yet. I agree with oliver kahn
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Offline Hazell

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1982 on: May 8, 2016, 07:05:45 pm »
I reckon he will be found out in england

Before i get pounced  on by the fanboys, its just a hunch thats all.

Judging by this thread, particularly since Tuesday night, it seems that he's not as popular as you might think.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1983 on: May 8, 2016, 07:49:28 pm »
Gotze wasnt a free signing .
not really the point.

City will be a real test no doubt. He still probably has the best squad in the league, but their squad is nowhere near Bayern and Barca's. Plus, it's one of those situations where it's basically just a lot of individuals rather than a good team. Fernandinho, De Bruyne and Aguero are their really good players. Kompany too, but he's injured a lot. Hart is inconsistent. Their midfield is pretty poor. Toure will be gone, Fernando and Delph aren't great. In attack, Silva is declining (though maybe no injuries will see him get back to his best), navas is shit and Sterling is, well, not that great right now. Thei rfullbacks aren't amazing either. Zaba is aging, Kolarov too who is slow as fuck which isn't good for a Pep style fullback.

The main thing on top if this, is City have really shit quality in depth. They need quite a few signings, and Gundogan doesn't look like he'll be one of those anymore.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1984 on: May 8, 2016, 08:01:34 pm »
What a miracle worker he is.
Given he took over a team that finished with 67 points, 10 behind Villareal and 18 behind Real Madrid and took them to 105 points in his first season as well as the treble - I have to agree with you.
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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1985 on: May 8, 2016, 08:18:02 pm »
Given he took over a team that finished with 67 points, 10 behind Villareal and 18 behind Real Madrid and took them to 105 points in his first season as well as the treble - I have to agree with you.

No need to rewrite history.
He got 87 points in his first season (not 105), and won the treble. And they may have finished 3rd in the previous season, but they made it to the semifinals of the Champions league. In fact,they had won the champions league trophy two seasons prior. On another note, they never reached 105 points in any season under Pep.

Luis Enrique got 94 points in his first season, and won the treble.
He's clearly one of those miracle workers as well.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2016, 08:21:39 pm by Doc Red »
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Offline johnny74

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1986 on: May 8, 2016, 10:35:27 pm »
Well, there were doubts about whether Klopp could achieve outside of Germany and it's taken a whole season to see that his skills are indeed transferable. I expect the same for Guardiola.

It will take him a while to get over the lack of a winter break and the fixture congestion, the visits of Pardew, Pulis and Allardyce. The wet night in Stoke. The simple fact that anyone can beat anyone here and margins between victory and defeat depend almost as much on motivation and team spirit. And successfully replacing so many players. All he will be able to do is guess at the players he needs. He won't know who to sell yet. That will have to be up to the club.

But give him a year and I think he'll make them the best they've ever been.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1987 on: May 8, 2016, 10:56:35 pm »
Pellegrini won the title in his first year...as did Mourinho...Wenger did it in his first year with a pre-season.

Lets not make the Premier out to be Everest.

City have wildly underperformed this year..maybe by as many as 10 points. A better coach with better players and there is no reason why they wont crack mid 80's again.
The CL will continue to be difficult, as always.

As for being found out...he has been more successful in 7 years than 99% of coaches have been in their entire career. He could retire now and still be an all time great.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2016, 11:01:54 pm by b_joseph »

Offline Doc Red

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1988 on: May 8, 2016, 11:29:53 pm »
Pellegrini won the title in his first year...as did Mourinho...Wenger did it in his first year with a pre-season.

Lets not make the Premier out to be Everest.

City have wildly underperformed this year..maybe by as many as 10 points. A better coach with better players and there is no reason why they wont crack mid 80's again.
The CL will continue to be difficult, as always.

There's already a benchmark, and in the case of Pellegrini, it was also with City. I'm interested in seeing his first season, but I'd be surprised if he wins the league. And if he doesn't, especially if City have an unfavourable record against the top teams, it'll only confirm the doubts some have of how truly great Pep is as a manager.

As for being found out...he has been more successful in 7 years than 99% of coaches have been in their entire career. He could retire now and still be an all time great.

I don't think anyone has said he's been found out. His trophies are there for all to see, and like Mourinho, very few managers can compare. However, taking another look at his trophies, every single one of them have either been won by the club prior to his time there, or after his time there. In some cases  both scenarios. And that's the issue, how great is he as a manager if other managers directly before/after his time manage to win trophies. Luis Enrique won the treble in his first season, and Heynckes won the treble just before Pep joined.

He's clearly a top manager, but the greatest of this era? or of any era? I would disagree, unless he rebuilds City into a team that churns out trophies akin to Barca or Munich, or at least one trophy a year, I wouldn't even rate him above Klopp. . Let's see what happens next season, but I'd put far more credibility in a manager that builds a dynasty with a club that hasn't won league titles for more than a decade, than one that wins with a club that already won trophies just before his time/ and right after his time.
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Offline elsewhere

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1989 on: May 8, 2016, 11:59:20 pm »
Pep's league career:

08/09 1st
09/10 1st
10/11 1st
11/12 2nd

13/14 1st
14/15 1st
15/16 1st

What a fraud he is.

He should go to Celtic then PSG next.

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1990 on: May 9, 2016, 12:23:30 am »
No need to rewrite history.
He got 87 points in his first season (not 105), and won the treble. And they may have finished 3rd in the previous season, but they made it to the semifinals of the Champions league. In fact,they had won the champions league trophy two seasons prior. On another note, they never reached 105 points in any season under Pep.

Luis Enrique got 94 points in his first season, and won the treble.
He's clearly one of those miracle workers as well.
Misread the goal column as points - did think it was strange!

Point stands though. Pep took a club that was on its knees with no identity, no professionalism and no direction. In his first job in senior management he overhauled the whole club and won its first treble playing the best football in Barca's history. In Rijkaard's last season, players were partying most nights, some were overweight, not turning up to training and when they did not even trying.

It was Pep's decision to sell Deco and Ronaldinho, two idols of Barcelona but who had let their standards slip below what Pep demands from his players. It was Pep's decision to give control of the team to Xavi, someone who had been given little responsibility prior to his arrival. It was Pep's decision to enhance Iniesta's role in the team. It was Pep who took Pique from being 4th choice at United to being one of if not the best centre backs in the world. It was Pep who moved Messi from right wing to the 'false 9' position. It was Pep who promoted Busquets and helped him become one of the best midfield pivots in the world.

Do you think all of these things were easy? Or obvious? If you do you're either ignorant or an idiot. Both are bad.

At Bayern, if you define success by whether you win the Champions League or not, you're really not doing it right. Most of Bayern's senior players have said Pep is the best manager they've ever worked with - taking them to another level in terms of preparation, training and versatility. He won 3 Bundesliga titles with Bayern, which they hadn't done for 15 years and back then their club was nowhere near the level it is now and they lost 9 games in the season they made it 3 in a row. Pep's side has accrued the 2nd, 3rd and 4th highest point totals for Bayern since 95/96. That. Isn't. Easy. Added to a Pokal cup and another final to come.

If you think Pep has made it this far through merely having good players then you need to go do some research and educate yourself a bit.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2016, 12:27:58 am by Mr Dilkington »
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Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1991 on: May 9, 2016, 12:23:56 am »
He should go to Celtic then PSG next.
Please don't waste my time.
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1992 on: May 9, 2016, 12:43:31 am »
The big question for me is how long will it take for the majority of English fans to realise that Pep's preferred brand of football is often boring as fuck to watch?

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1993 on: May 9, 2016, 01:34:01 am »
At Bayern, if you define success by whether you win the Champions League or not, you're really not doing it right. Most of Bayern's senior players have said Pep is the best manager they've ever worked with - taking them to another level in terms of preparation, training and versatility. He won 3 Bundesliga titles with Bayern, which they hadn't done for 15 years and back then their club was nowhere near the level it is now and they lost 9 games in the season they made it 3 in a row. Pep's side has accrued the 2nd, 3rd and 4th highest point totals for Bayern since 95/96. That. Isn't. Easy. Added to a Pokal cup and another final to come.

It is a little disingenuous to pick out the 3 in a row stat over the far more representative winning 7 out of the previous 11, you also shouldn't overlook the impact Dortmund winning two in a row had on Bayern, it woke them up and got them flexing their financial muscles far more strongly towards the end of Heynckes' time with them and for the duration of Pep's stay too.

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1994 on: May 9, 2016, 01:49:59 am »
It is a little disingenuous to pick out the 3 in a row stat over the far more representative winning 7 out of the previous 11, you also shouldn't overlook the impact Dortmund winning two in a row had on Bayern, it woke them up and got them flexing their financial muscles far more strongly towards the end of Heynckes' time with them and for the duration of Pep's stay too.
It's not disingenuous at all. Winning back to back titles is difficult, to win 3 in a row obviously even more so. That's the point. Of course Bayern have won a lot of Bundesliga titles as you point out, but not in the sustained manner that Pep has achieved.
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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1995 on: May 9, 2016, 01:54:03 am »
Misread the goal column as points - did think it was strange!

Point stands though. Pep took a club that was on its knees with no identity, no professionalism and no direction. In his first job in senior management he overhauled the whole club and won its first treble playing the best football in Barca's history. In Rijkaard's last season, players were partying most nights, some were overweight, not turning up to training and when they did not even trying.

Maybe we just have different standards.
Barca won the Champions league, and two league titles, and followed it with two seasons without a league title, and a semi final champions league finish. If that's a team on its knees than I shudder to think what 3 seasons without a title means for you.

It was Pep's decision to sell Deco and Ronaldinho, two idols of Barcelona but who had let their standards slip below what Pep demands from his players. It was Pep's decision to give control of the team to Xavi, someone who had been given little responsibility prior to his arrival. It was Pep's decision to enhance Iniesta's role in the team. It was Pep who took Pique from being 4th choice at United to being one of if not the best centre backs in the world. It was Pep who moved Messi from right wing to the 'false 9' position. It was Pep who promoted Busquets and helped him become one of the best midfield pivots in the world.

Do you think all of these things were easy? Or obvious? If you do you're either ignorant or an idiot. Both are bad.

I think they were vital moves that needed to be done. You just mentioned in the previous paragraph that "In Rijkaard's last season, players were partying most nights, some were overweight, not turning up to training and when they did not even trying". According to the rumours, both of them were the main culprits in this. The issue wasn't so much as if it was obvious or not, but whether the next manager would ahve the balls to pull the plug.
As for the rest, these were smart moves, and that's why Pep is a top manager. I don't think deciding to move Messi more central, and promoting Busquets, were outrageous moves at the time. I'm sure Barca fans that followed the youth teams would have expected the likes of Busquets and Pique to eventually make it on the team. Pique being 4th choice at United is more of an indictment of Fergie, than it is a measure of genius from Pep.

And if you find it hard to debate without silly statements like "if you don't agree with my point you must be an idiot", maybe take a break. Go read a book or go for a walk. We're not changing the world with this debate, so it's certainly not worth insinuating insults and the likes. (I'm actually supposed to be reading several articles, and once again RAWK has taken my time ;D )


At Bayern, if you define success by whether you win the Champions League or not, you're really not doing it right. Most of Bayern's senior players have said Pep is the best manager they've ever worked with - taking them to another level in terms of preparation, training and versatility. He won 3 Bundesliga titles with Bayern, which they hadn't done for 15 years and back then their club was nowhere near the level it is now and they lost 9 games in the season they made it 3 in a row. Pep's side has accrued the 2nd, 3rd and 4th highest point totals for Bayern since 95/96. That. Isn't. Easy. Added to a Pokal cup and another final to come.

If you think Pep has made it this far through merely having good players then you need to go do some research and educate yourself a bit.

He joined a team that had just won the treble. Think about that for a second. This was already a well oiled machine with most of the key players young and experienced enough to have been favourites the following season. And as I keep repeating, a team that snatched the best player from their biggest rivals two seasons running, soon to be three players, (with little or no compensation).

People keep bringing up his champions league failures with Bayern simply because he joined a team that had already won it the season before he joined. In fact, Bayern had reached 3 finals in the 4 seasons prior to Pep joining them. Yet in his three seasons with Bayern, his team were thrashed 0-5 by Madrid (0-4 at Bayern), lost 3-5 against Barca (0-3 in the first leg), and lost 1-2 to Atletico. In 6 matches in the Championsleague semifinals, his team has scored a grand total of 4 goals and conceded 12.

Getting all those points records with Bayern only further illustrate his failures in failing to take them to a final, and especially losing in the manner they've done.

I'm surprised he didn't move to PSG where he could break their league points total, such is his genius.

The big question for me is how long will it take for the majority of English fans to realise that Pep's preferred brand of football is often boring as fuck to watch?
Barca play a more exciting game at this moment than when he was there, and Bayern were more exciting before he joined them. And they've won trophies as well.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2016, 01:56:19 am by Doc Red »
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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1996 on: May 9, 2016, 01:56:35 am »
It's not disingenuous at all. Winning back to back titles is difficult, to win 3 in a row obviously even more so. That's the point. Of course Bayern have won a lot of Bundesliga titles as you point out, but not in the sustained manner that Pep has achieved.

The sustained period of wins has far more to do with their increased spending and the lack of a serious enough domestic threat, he is obviously a quality manager but he is not some kind of messiah.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2016, 01:58:54 am by Skeeve »

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1997 on: May 9, 2016, 02:03:05 am »
Barca play a more exciting game at this moment than when he was there, and Bayern were more exciting before he joined them. And they've won trophies as well.

Pretty much yeah, Barca are actually enjoyable to watch now (granted part of that is down to having Suarez and Neymar) and Bayern were great under Heynckes, with Muller being one of my favourites. Barca were incredibly dull under pep though yes they were really effective, I haven't seen a lot of Bayern under Pep but from what I have seen they're not amazing to watch.

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1998 on: May 9, 2016, 02:42:25 am »
Maybe we just have different standards.
Barca won the Champions league, and two league titles, and followed it with two seasons without a league title, and a semi final champions league finish. If that's a team on its knees than I shudder to think what 3 seasons without a title means for you.

I think they were vital moves that needed to be done. You just mentioned in the previous paragraph that "In Rijkaard's last season, players were partying most nights, some were overweight, not turning up to training and when they did not even trying". According to the rumours, both of them were the main culprits in this. The issue wasn't so much as if it was obvious or not, but whether the next manager would ahve the balls to pull the plug.
As for the rest, these were smart moves, and that's why Pep is a top manager. I don't think deciding to move Messi more central, and promoting Busquets, were outrageous moves at the time. I'm sure Barca fans that followed the youth teams would have expected the likes of Busquets and Pique to eventually make it on the team. Pique being 4th choice at United is more of an indictment of Fergie, than it is a measure of genius from Pep.

And if you find it hard to debate without silly statements like "if you don't agree with my point you must be an idiot", maybe take a break. Go read a book or go for a walk. We're not changing the world with this debate, so it's certainly not worth insinuating insults and the likes. (I'm actually supposed to be reading several articles, and once again RAWK has taken my time ;D )

He joined a team that had just won the treble. Think about that for a second. This was already a well oiled machine with most of the key players young and experienced enough to have been favourites the following season. And as I keep repeating, a team that snatched the best player from their biggest rivals two seasons running, soon to be three players, (with little or no compensation).

People keep bringing up his champions league failures with Bayern simply because he joined a team that had already won it the season before he joined. In fact, Bayern had reached 3 finals in the 4 seasons prior to Pep joining them. Yet in his three seasons with Bayern, his team were thrashed 0-5 by Madrid (0-4 at Bayern), lost 3-5 against Barca (0-3 in the first leg), and lost 1-2 to Atletico. In 6 matches in the Championsleague semifinals, his team has scored a grand total of 4 goals and conceded 12.

Getting all those points records with Bayern only further illustrate his failures in failing to take them to a final, and especially losing in the manner they've done.

I'm surprised he didn't move to PSG where he could break their league points total, such is his genius.
Barca play a more exciting game at this moment than when he was there, and Bayern were more exciting before he joined them. And they've won trophies as well.
Standards are relative to the club in question. You mention that Barcelona had won their fair share of trophies before Pep, which is of course correct, however the point is that they then capitulated and were undoubtedly in disarray. Managers aren't only judged by what they win. Pep changed the thinking of the club and made them a sustainable force.

On the Deco/Ronaldinho thing.. yes it took balls, but it also took smarts and conviction. How easy would it have been to give them another chance? He was a 37 year old guy in his first senior job, and he took the decision to sell the darling off the Camp Nou in Ronaldinho and their midfield linchpin Deco.

Re: Busquets, apparently he was not one of those players who was obviously destined for the top. Now maybe that's not true and he was in fact the obvious heir to Guardiola from the age of 12 - I don't know. I just know Pep worked with him for a year and saw something special in him.

On Pique, I agree he was mishandled by Ferguson, and I don't think Guardiola signing him was genius, I just think it was smart and for a young manager he helped Pique become one of the best defenders of his era.

I wasn't calling you either of those things. I didn't know whether you believed these decisions were easy or obvious - I assumed not. And now I know you think they were smart decisions.

In his first season he won the Bundesliga with 1 point less than Heynckes' treble winning side did. He also won the Pokal, as Heynckes' team did of course. The disparity came with the Champions League, which was, and I quote "the biggest fuck up of my life." They played superbly well against Madrid in the first leg of the semi final, losing a goal against the run of play. They had double the number of shots, 15-3 in terms of corners and had 72% of the ball (I don't think possession is a barometer of who was the better team in a game, but I think it's worth noting that for Bayern to go away to Madrid and dominate the ball, and for many spells the game in the way that they did was impressive). The trouble came in the second leg of course. Pep had planned to play in the same manner as the away leg, however a group of senior players went to him and pleaded for him to go all out. So he did. It didn't go well, as we know - hence "the biggest fuck up of my life". Which goes to show no manager is perfect. It was a terrible decision to go gung-ho against a Madrid team with Bale and Ronaldo.

Last season vs Barca he made a brave but foolish tactical error by going with a 3 man man marking system, he quickly changed it after a pretty horrid first 20 minutes and Bayern actually played ok. They restricted Barca to hardly any chances up until the greatest player of all time decided to win the game for his team. They lost the tie in 13 minutes of football. At home they played well and beat Barcelona, however because they were chasing it from the first leg the quality of Neymar and Suarez killed them.

This season they were just genuinely unlucky. They were the better team over the 2 legs (particularly the 1st leg) but were undone by a missed penalty and some bad finishing. Simeone said it's the best side they've ever faced - "we had no answer to them".

Also there's a reason no club has ever won the Champions League in successive seasons. It's really hard. He'll retire having won more than any coach in history so I'm sure he'll be fine with that.

Barca are more exciting now, I agree. Crucially however, they aren't better now than when they were at their peak under Pep. In my opinion of course.

If you think Bayern were more exciting then, that's fair enough. I disagree.
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Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich
« Reply #1999 on: May 9, 2016, 02:42:56 am »
The sustained period of wins has far more to do with their increased spending and the lack of a serious enough domestic threat, he is obviously a quality manager but he is not some kind of messiah.
More increased spending from when?
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.