Topic: General Election December 12th

[Zeb]

when are the manifestos out?

Tories are supposedly considering delaying their's until a couple of days before polling. Lib Dems reckon within a couple of weeks for their's. Labour have been briefing with a view to next week after tomorrow's meeting to finalise it.

Absence of scrutiny on all things detailed and Tory is notable. Even on the one policy which we know they have to do.

[Skeeve]

I would like to know how they are going to tax Amazon and Google more without them finding a way out of it.

This needs to happen. I think everyone would agree, but how do we stop them getting away with it? I'm genuinely interested. If it was easy wouldn't that have been done years ago?

I try and not shop at Amazon or Starbucks due to how little tax they pay. And I'm sure they are devastated with that  . But I'd shop there again if they paid more tax.

Base it on their income rather than profits so it kicks in at a point that doesn't allow them to funnel it away to a subsidiary in a more tax-friendly country, they won't just leave the country as they make too much money here to spite themselves.

[filopastry]

Tories are supposedly considering delaying their's until a couple of days before polling. Lib Dems reckon within a couple of weeks for their's. Labour have been briefing with a view to next week after tomorrow's meeting to finalise it.

Absence of scrutiny on all things detailed and Tory is notable. Even on the one policy which we know they have to do.

For a party that has been pushing for a GE for a while, the Tories have seemed relatively clueless thus far, seems to have entered the election with the view that Brexit and pandering to the base on immigration, plus easing some cuts to NHS and police will be enough to get things done.

We will see if that's right but it seems pretty reckless to come in so policy lite after the shambles they made of the last GE campaign, although I suppose you could never call Johnson a details kind of guy, so it shouldnt be a complete surprise

[filopastry]

Base it on their income rather than profits so it kicks in at a point that doesn't allow them to funnel it away to a subsidiary in a more tax-friendly country, they won't just leave the country as they make too much money here to spite themselves.

It sounds like Labour's approach will be based on taking some kind of share of global profits based on the proportion of global revenue etc in the UK, will be interested to see the details when they come out and what the tax experts make of them.

[Alan_X]

Like others are saying, depends on how it is funded. But access to good, constant broadband can now been seen as a life essential.

That's not what the story is about though. Labour is promising full-fibre to everyone by 2030. That's up to 1Gbps.

For comparison, my business broadband is 26Mbps upload and download and we don't really need anything faster than that. Why does every home need internet 40 times faster than that?

[Skeeve]

It's good advice for people like Trada in seats like Frome where Labour will finish third, to be fair.

Indeed, there should be no protected parties in tactical voting, regardless of your preference you should be going for the one with the best chances of preventing a tory hold or gain in your constituency, anything else hands them the win.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That's not what the story is about though. Labour is promising full-fibre to everyone by 2030. That's up to 1Gbps.

For comparison, my business broadband is 26Mbps upload and download and we don't really need anything faster than that. Why does every home need internet 40 times faster than that?

Your Battlefield Servers must be rubbish

[Zeb]

For a party that has been pushing for a GE for a while, the Tories have seemed relatively clueless thus far, seems to have entered the election with the view that Brexit and pandering to the base on immigration, plus easing some cuts to NHS and police will be enough to get things done.

We will see if that's right but it seems pretty reckless to come in so policy lite after the shambles they made of the last GE campaign, although I suppose you could never call Johnson a details kind of guy, so it shouldnt be a complete surprise

Random observation from what I've seen of it, it seems like Tories are very invested in mentioning Corbyn as much as possible and trying not to bump into the furniture whereas Labour are really downplaying Corbyn and would rather talk about what a third term Labour government would do. Brexit elections...

[filopastry]

That's not what the story is about though. Labour is promising full-fibre to everyone by 2030. That's up to 1Gbps.

For comparison, my business broadband is 26Mbps upload and download and we don't really need anything faster than that. Why does every home need internet 40 times faster than that?

I saw the start of the Labour ad for this on twitter, from someone (rightly) bemoaning their 2Mbps broadband speed which meant they couldn't do video calling to keep in touch with family, that is a legitimate problem particularly in rural areas, but equally I'm not sure you need full FTTP (fibre to the property) for those kind of needs or the needs of most people.

If Labour end up tweaking this to give a hybrid of FTTP, FTTC (fibre to the cabinet) and 5G or whatever replaces it, depending on use case and location then that would seem to me to make a lot more economic sense to me, although far from an expert in the area of broadband tech, I just can't imagine that it is going to make economic sense to run a full FTTP line to every property in the country, irrespective of how remote they are.

[filopastry]

@panelbase GB poll (changes since Nov 06-08)

Westminster #GE2019
Con 43% (+3%)
Lab 30% (NC)
Lib Dem 15% (NC)
Brexit Party 5% (-3%)
Green 2% (-1%)

EU Referendum
Remain 52% (-1%)
Leave 48% (+1%)

Fieldwork Nov 13-14

[Alan_X]

I saw the start of the Labour ad for this on twitter, from someone (rightly) bemoaning their 2Mbps broadband speed which meant they couldn't do video calling to keep in touch with family, that is a legitimate problem particularly in rural areas, but equally I'm not sure you need full FTTP (fibre to the property) for those kind of needs or the needs of most people.

If Labour end up tweaking this to give a hybrid of FTTP, FTTC (fibre to the cabinet) and 5G or whatever replaces it, depending on use case and location then that would seem to me to make a lot more economic sense to me, although far from an expert in the area of broadband tech, I just can't imagine that it is going to make economic sense to run a full FTTP line to every property in the country, irrespective of how remote they are.

It doesn't. The real benefits would come from ensuring there is high speed fibre to towns and business hubs to encourage the development of hi-tech industries and remote working.

All homes should have access to decent fast broadband with an option to upgrade if you want it.

[killer-heels]

We know this already but that EU decision and views are just caked in now. Nothing is shifting anyones position and if anyone thinks some amazing orator or leader is going to come along and change then they are a bit mad.

God knows how the Remain campaign would run a second vote.

[filopastry]

We know this already but that EU decision and views are just caked in now. Nothing is shifting anyones position and if anyone thinks some amazing orator or leader is going to come along and change then they are a bit mad.

God knows how the Remain campaign would run a second vote.

Remain seems to have been locked in that 52-55 range for a fair while now, agree with you that things have seemed pretty static there for a long time, certainly tight enough that I wouldn't feel very confident on a Remain win second time around.

[oldfordie]

Massive amount of s.. to throw at the Tories for the last 9 yrs.
print it off and post it through every door in the country.
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1194580555033133056

[Cpt_Reina]

Massive amount of s.. to throw at the Tories for the last 9 yrs.
print it off and post it through every door in the country.
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1194580555033133056

6 years worth of numbers to throw at Lib Dems there too.

[killer-heels]

Remain seems to have been locked in that 52-55 range for a fair while now, agree with you that things have seemed pretty static there for a long time, certainly tight enough that I wouldn't feel very confident on a Remain win second time around.

I dont think there is any chance of Remain winning a second vote, unless someone devises a way of getting the public to discuss the drop in business investment around the telly.

[Red-Soldier]

6 years worth of numbers to throw at Lib Dems there too.

Yawn

[oldfordie]

6 years worth of numbers to throw at Lib Dems there too.

Yeah if you want to see the worst Tory government in history with the power to run riot then drag the Lib dems in as well.

[nayia2002]

What I find bizarre is reading people admitting he’s a bit shit, a second-rate politician, he’s massively unpopular and his back story is full of ready-made stories for the right-wing media. He’s a vote loser but people like me have to back him because if I don’t it means I prefer the Tories? 

Has it never occurred to you that you might have got it arse backwards mate.

It’s not that I don’t want a Corbyn-led Labour Government. I voted Labour in the 2017 election. I am desperate to have a Labour Government but Corbyn is the best guarantee of Tory governments for the foreseeable future.

If Corbyn could show a modicum of leadership and competence. If he could find a way not to come across as a creepy grandad to most people in the country. If he could bin off some of the more unsavoury characters he hangs around with & pack in the nepotism and jobs for the boys/girls... if he could just be electable without needing the Tory leader to be an absolute c*nt to make him look good...

But hey - you’re right. We mustn’t say any of those nasty things about Jeremy. He’s a proper socialist after all. Let’s just sing ‘Ooohh, Jeremy Corbyn’ as the next Tory leader moves into No 10 and we sail out of the EU...

Sorry mate I cannot quite comprehend your post here!!

How can you say you're a labour voter/supporter and refuse to vote for labour mp's at this GE?! If anything it's NOW we must all vote for a labour government with Corbyn(2x leadership wins if you haven't realised!)as  PM.
The country is on the brink of collapse if the fucking nasty tories get re elected, they will go to town with another round of austerity and also don't forget the B word!

Your hatred towards Corbyn is bizarre mate to say the least.

[classycarra]

6 years worth of numbers to throw at Lib Dems there too.

Am sure Geoff will be along shortly to tell you off for helping the Tories stay in, with that

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I am desperate to have a Labour Government but Corbyn is the best guarantee of Tory governments for the foreseeable future.

No.

The unthinking masses being hoodwinked by a right wing biased media, the bizarre trend of mistrusting experts, small minded xenophobia/racism and a belief in the lies and rhetoric of the right are the best guarantee of a Tory government.

We're been taken for a ride by people with an agenda, which is destructive to the majority, and somehow most people can't or won't see it. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Sorry mate I cannot quite comprehend your post here!!

How can you say you're a labour voter/supporter and refuse to vote for labour mp's at this GE?! If anything it's NOW we must all vote for a labour government with Corbyn(2x leadership wins if you haven't realised!)as  PM.
The country is on the brink of collapse if the fucking nasty tories get re elected, they will go to town with another round of austerity and also don't forget the B word!

Your hatred towards Corbyn is bizarre mate to say the least.

So if voting Labour in your area guarantees that a Tory gets in, you vote Labour?

[Welshred]

You see all this is cult behaviour. Any criticism of Corbyn is passed off as the masses being hoodwinked by someone, or just by a Tory, or a right winger, or a Blairite or literally anything that isn't Corbyn's fault.

People look past his Brexit stance, his Eurosceptism, the anti seminity he's allowed to fester within the party, his inability to answer questions without giving ammunition for people to use against him, his inability to get one over on the worst Tory leadership of my lifetime. It's never Jezza's fault it's always someone else's.

[Nobby Reserve]

Transport will be the other one if they're taking wholesale. Focus especially on buses and cost/benefit of subsidies currently needed vs lack of coverage. To some extent, it's already present whether nationally (OAPs, some disabled people) and regionally (Greater Manchester has targeted school students while talking of taking services away from the big operators running mainly on most profitable routes).

Spoiler

NB: axis should be £000s not £m.

[close]

The thing with buses is that with a geographical area there will be user-heavy routes (profitable) and quieter routes serving more widespread communities (loss-making)

The idea of having one organisation running all of the bus services in a regional/county/city is that the profitable routes subsidise the loss-making routes. That way, society in general is best served.

By having the service provided by the public sector, there is no chasing of profits on the busy routes whilst scrapping the quieter routes.

The Thatcher's big plan (or it was the plan of another cuntish spiv in that govt) was to break up the public-owned monopoly and have private operators just focus on the profitable routes (to make oodles of dosh for other spivs - and many over the years have made generations 'thank you' donations to the Tory Party)


There's a similar principle with the Royal Mail. The principle of a universal mail service for a reasonable price only works when the general/domestic 'letter & card' post to houses all over is subsidised by the high-volume commercial and urban postal system. But they first lost parcel deliveries, then a monopoly on normal post. Since then, they've been knackered.

[Nobby Reserve]

Sorry mate I cannot quite comprehend your post here!!

How can you say you're a labour voter/supporter and refuse to vote for labour mp's at this GE?! If anything it's NOW we must all vote for a labour government with Corbyn(2x leadership wins if you haven't realised!)as  PM.
The country is on the brink of collapse if the fucking nasty tories get re elected, they will go to town with another round of austerity and also don't forget the B word!

Your hatred towards Corbyn is bizarre mate to say the least.

My position on the political spectrum is far closer to Corbyn than Bliar. But if I lived in a seat where Labour were a distant third behind the Lib Dems and Tories, I'd vote LD without hesitation and encourage all the people I knew to do likewise. Under our FPTP system, we need to vote tactically.

Every seat the Tory twats don't win is vital.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

You see all this is cult behaviour. Any criticism of Corbyn is passed off as the masses being hoodwinked by someone, or just by a Tory, or a right winger, or a Blairite or literally anything that isn't Corbyn's fault.

People look past his Brexit stance, his Eurosceptism, the anti seminity he's allowed to fester within the party, his inability to answer questions without giving ammunition for people to use against him, his inability to get one over on the worst Tory leadership of my lifetime. It's never Jezza's fault it's always someone else's.

I couldn't give a damn who is the Labour leader, I'm no Corbyn worshiper, nor do I dislike him (he's far more likely to help the population than Johnson). The truth of the matter is that the population are being hoodwinked by the right wing media and the lies coming from the likes of Frottage and Johnson. 

[classycarra]

BoRed what do you reckon of Unity News UK, and their editorial stance?

Why did Jeremy Corbyn take time out from his campaign to give an interview to Unity News, a fringe antisemitic website which is supporting Chris Williamson’s election campaign against Labour? https://facebook.com/UnityNewsUK/videos/559487741536191/
https://twitter.com/TheRedRoar/status/1195021165905022976

[Alan_X]

Sorry mate I cannot quite comprehend your post here!!

How can you say you're a labour voter/supporter and refuse to vote for labour mp's at this GE?! If anything it's NOW we must all vote for a labour government with Corbyn(2x leadership wins if you haven't realised!)as  PM.

The country is on the brink of collapse if the fucking nasty tories get re elected, they will go to town with another round of austerity and also don't forget the B word!

Your hatred towards Corbyn is bizarre mate to say the least.

It's the 2 wins in leadership elections that have finally forced me and others to give up on Labour as an electoral force.

The membership in its current form insists on electing a man who has a minus 60% favourability rating. This election should be a walkover but Labour is being dragged down by a leader that most people simply don't trust and don't like.

People say this thread is a bubble and it is to some extent. It's nothing to the bubble that Corbyn's supporters live in.

Mutton Geoff said I was like the fans wanting Rafa out. That's nonsense. Rafa was a proven winner and I supported him all the way. The better comparison is between Corbyn supporters and people defending Hodgson '...because he's the Liverpool manager...'

Corbyn has his leadership wins, Hodgson has his Allsvenskan title and 30 years of experience... Both needed to go for things to move on.

Labour may get lucky - Johnson and the Tories may self-destruct - but that's not looking likely. In my view, the bounce in 2017 was down to the Maybot, some catastrophic Tory policies and metropolitan remainers giving the Tories a bloody nose over Brexit.

And don't worry, I haven't forgotten Brexit, or Corbyn's part in it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I couldn't give a damn who is the Labour leader, I'm no Corbyn worshiper, nor do I dislike him (he's far more likely to help the population than Johnson). The truth of the matter is that the population are being hoodwinked by the right wing media and the lies coming from the likes of Frottage and Johnson. 

Given how much the Tories have fucked the country, fucked the NHS, fucked the Police, fucked the Fire Service, fucked the Ambulance Service, fucked the Councils, fucked the economy, fucked the National Debt, fucked the young, fucked the old, fucked the poor, fucked the mentally ill, fucked the homeless, fucked society in general and fucked our social services..

.. just how bad do Labour have to be to not be absolutely streets ahead at this stage?

Is there something about Labour, perhaps, that means they aren't walking the next election?


All that shit has gone on and pretty much everyone and everything is worse off and still Corbyn isn't running to an easy election win.


I can't talk about anyone else, but I'm angry that Labour aren't walking it.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Given how much the Tories have fucked the country, fucked the NHS, fucked the Police, fucked the Fire Service, fucked the Ambulance Service, fucked the Councils, fucked the economy, fucked the National Debt, fucked the young, fucked the old, fucked the poor, fucked the mentally ill, fucked the homeless, fucked society in general and fucked our social services..

.. just how bad do Labour have to be to not be absolutely streets ahead at this stage?

Is there something about Labour, perhaps, that means they aren't walking the next election?


All that shit has gone on and pretty much everyone and everything is worse off and still Corbyn isn't running to an easy election win.


I can't talk about anyone else, but I'm angry that Labour aren't walking it.

No idea.

I'm angry at the level of stupidity of the general public that can't see that they're being shafted by the Tories and that literally anything would be better.

[Yorkykopite]

The best possible result of this crap election is a hung parliament with the Tories unable to form a coalition. That way the country is obviously spared Johnson and his cretinous policies but it is also spared a Corbyn government committed to its idiotic version of Brexit followed by a referendum in which the PM won’t say what he believes in. Plus we are also spared the disastrous LibDem policy of revocation.

A hung parliament with an anti-Tory majority will most likely result in a second referendum with a simple choice between Remain and a Hard Brexit. That’s because both Labour and the Lib Dems will have to compromise on their current positions over Europe. That simple choice isn’t ideal. It’s possible that a majority of people would vote for Hard Brexit. But it is more likely they’d vote Remain. It’s a risk worth taking, given the wretched alternatives.

It’s a pity that the Labour Party isn’t a rational party led by people like Benn, Cooper. Phillips, Creasey etc. It would win this election hands down. But unfortunately most Labour members don’t want to be led by such people. But we know this....

The only game in town therefore is to vote for the candidate best placed to defeat the Conservative. And then hope that Labour does well, but not too well.

[OneTouchFooty]

You see all this is cult behaviour. Any criticism of Corbyn is passed off as the masses being hoodwinked by someone, or just by a Tory, or a right winger, or a Blairite or literally anything that isn't Corbyn's fault.

People look past his Brexit stance, his Eurosceptism, the anti seminity he's allowed to fester within the party, his inability to answer questions without giving ammunition for people to use against him, his inability to get one over on the worst Tory leadership of my lifetime. It's never Jezza's fault it's always someone else's.

This isn’t a defence of Corbyn but it’s become confusing what type of Labour party the extreme anti-Corbyn brigade actually want. The piss is routinely taken out of anything remotely left wing/socialist/progressive on here in a smug, condescending manner or the resorting to labelling people Marxist for not wanting Labour to be the Lib Dems. Who are polling on 15%.

At the end of the day, the Blair centrist type politics have become toxic to voters, across Europe these types parties are have been decimated. We tried Ed Miliband who was to the right of Corbyn, who I actually liked but the press tore him apart for the bacon sarnie, looking “weird” and ridiculously from being Marxist/Red Ed, despite the Tories nicking his policies not long after. 30% of the vote share despite decent polices. Corbyn took 40%.

Maybe it’s no coincidence that Labour last were elected with the full might of the Murdoch media empire behind them, after a horrid 18 years of Tory rule.

No idea where Labour go after the upcoming election defeat.. but hopefully all the millions of supposed moaning disaffected/alienated Labour voters get off their arse and actually vote for a leader they want.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This isn’t a defence of Corbyn but it’s become confusing what type of Labour party the extreme anti-Corbyn brigade actually want. The piss is routinely taken out of anything remotely left wing/socialist/progressive on here or the resorting to labelling people Marxist for not wanting Labour to be the Lib Dems. Who are polling on 15%.

At the end of the day, the Blair centrist type politics have become toxic, all over Europe these parties are have been decimated. We tried Ed Miliband who was to the right of Corbyn, who I actually liked but the press tore him apart for the bacon sarnie, looking “weird” and ridiculously from being Marxist/Red Ed, despite the Tories nicking his policies not long after. 30% of the vote share despite decent polices. Corbyn took 40%.

Maybe it’s no coincidence that Labour last were elected with the full might of the Murdoch media empire behind them, after a horrid 18 years of Tory rule.

No idea where Labour go after the upcoming election defeat.. but hopefully all the millions of supposed moaning disaffected/alienated Labour voters get off their arse and actually vote for a leader they want.

I can't speak for everyone, but I want Corbyn to be anti-Brexit and stop it dead.

It's the only chance this country has got to not be fucked for the forseeable future.

If Corbyn wasn't having a raging boner about Brexit then perhaps the country could be improved and we could fuck these Tories off.

Over 55 million people didn't vote for Brexit.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Maybe it’s no coincidence that Labour last were elected with the full might of the Murdoch media empire behind them, after a horrid 18 years of Tory rule.

It's definitely no coincidence.

The same could be done today, simply by swapping the tabloid headlines and captions from Tory to Labour and vice-versa. Sadly far too many make their decisions based on dubious/untrue tabloid headlines and fake Facebook memes. Far too few actually research and use their brains, this is why we're in the is mess, it's not the fault of Corbyn.

[Alan_X]

This isn’t a defence of Corbyn but it’s become confusing what type of Labour party the extreme anti-Corbyn brigade actually want. The piss is routinely taken out of anything remotely left wing/socialist/progressive on here in a smug, condescending manner or the resorting to labelling people Marxist for not wanting Labour to be the Lib Dems. Who are polling on 15%.

At the end of the day, the Blair centrist type politics have become toxic to voters, across Europe these types parties are have been decimated. We tried Ed Miliband who was to the right of Corbyn, who I actually liked but the press tore him apart for the bacon sarnie, looking “weird” and ridiculously from being Marxist/Red Ed, despite the Tories nicking his policies not long after. 30% of the vote share despite decent polices. Corbyn took 40%.

Maybe it’s no coincidence that Labour last were elected with the full might of the Murdoch media empire behind them, after a horrid 18 years of Tory rule.

No idea where Labour go after the upcoming election defeat.. but hopefully all the millions of supposed moaning disaffected/alienated Labour voters get off their arse and actually vote for a leader they want.

I give up. 'Extreme anti-Corbyn brigade' = 'Extreme want Labour to be electable brigade...'

You're confusing people who vote Labour with labour members. Some have a strong allegiance to the party, some will flip between Labour and Tory from election to election.

They don't vote in Labour leadership elections, they expect the Labour Party to come up with a leader and front bench capable of winning elections.  If Labour doesn't they will go elsewhere.

You clearly have no idea how demoralising this is.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

they expect the Labour Party to come up with a leader and front bench capable of winning elections.  If Labour doesn't they will go elsewhere.

Labour aren't winning elections because these voters are going elsewhere.

It's very demoralising how gullible the general population have become.

[RobbieRedman]

Mutton Geoff said I was like the fans wanting Rafa out. That's nonsense. Rafa was a proven winner and I supported him all the way. The better comparison is between Corbyn supporters and people defending Hodgson '...because he's the Liverpool manager...'

Corbyn has his leadership wins, Hodgson has his Allsvenskan title and 30 years of experience... Both needed to go for things to move on.

Brilliant that

-60% FFS and people still can't see.

[Andy]

The same could be done today, simply by swapping the tabloid headlines and captions from Tory to Labour and vice-versa.

This ignores the fact that a lot of Corbyn/McDonnell's idea are too left wing for most centrist voters.

I would probably vote Labour if a credible centre-left leader was in charge, but instead the unions decided Red Ed wasn't Red enough. The unions and Momentum are screwing the party.

[TepidT2O]

Labour aren't winning elections because these voters are going elsewhere.

It's very demoralising how gullible the general population have become.

Or we could look at this the other way round.

Imagine the voters weren’t gullible.

What if it were the Labour Party that was gullible and was gullible enough to keep voting for leaders that the general public were never going to vote for in big enough numbers...

Imagine.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

This ignores the fact that a lot of Corbyn/McDonnell's idea are too left wing for most centrist voters.

I would probably vote Labour if a credible centre-left leader was in charge, but instead the unions decided Red Ed wasn't Red enough. The unions and Momentum are screwing the party.

Another illustration of how far to the right the media have gone and as result most of the population. Labours policies are not far left, they are sensible socialist policies that put the welfare of the population ahead of the interests of big business and capitalism. Plenty of these policies are common in parts of Europe. Are the progressive Scandinavian countries led by rapid communist governments?

Imagine being an average UK earner and thinking free broadband, a four day working week and protecting the NHS are stupid ideas.