Topic: General Election December 12th

[Lusty]

I think they need to send all their data to 4chan to let them confirm or deny then.

Is a strange way to report a DDOS attack, which journalists are saying is what happened.

Yes, seeing more places report it was a DDoS attack and the 'robust defence' was Cloudflare.

So basically the kind of thing businesses are dealing with on a daily basis and not making a fuss about.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I think they need to send all their data to 4chan to let them confirm or deny then.

Is a strange way to report a DDOS attack, which journalists are saying is what happened.

They must have amateurs running their systems not to have Impervia/Similar blocking DDOS.

[classycarra]

And Jezza has been supporting Evo Morales (Burgon too) after his chickens came home to roost over the weekend (basically got the Supreme Court to get rid of term limits as he lost the referendum on it, staged a rigged election recently and around 10% of the population demonstrated against him), another gift for the Tories there the utter fuckwit

It's a horrible irony for his more cosmopolitan supporters how nasty Corbyn is about non-western socialists.

He couldn't give a fuck about foreign lefties, he is always more than happy to endorse those that subjugate or crack down on them (so long as the autocrat confirms with his ignorant one dimensional world-view).

I think they need to send all their data to 4chan to let them confirm or deny then.

subtle

[classycarra]

I'm not sure I agree with this, as someone who has come from a deprived background, but had the advantage of free university education.

Could you throw out some figures about your thinking?
1. Threshold of pay where you have to pay back
2. Level of poverty where you can get a bursary
3. Size of bursary

Research on the policy in Scotland
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/apr/29/free-tuition-scotland-benefits-wealthiest-students-most-study

Independent analysis of the policy proposal from Labour in 2017
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9217

Comment piece (shared for some relevant links) explaining, among other things, how regressive a proposal it is 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/22/labour-scrap-tuition-fees-not-progressive-measure-early-years-education

Believe you have me on ignore since you didn't like our views differing on whether antisemitism was an important thing to discuss, so I might need someone to quote my post in order to help you with your request

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Yes, seeing more places report it was a DDoS attack and the 'robust defence' was Cloudflare.

So basically the kind of thing businesses are dealing with on a daily basis and not making a fuss about.

https://twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1194211513415979008?s=21

[Jiminy Cricket]

I simply cannot understand the scrapping of tuition fees.

It’s a tax break for the middle classes.

Make the threshold for repayment higher.  Give very generous bursaries to people from disadvantaged backgrounds so they don’t have to worry about any finances

But giving billions to the middle classes just seems so regressive...

From a practical and state finance point of view, I understand from where you are coming from on this. However, the students are all adults - should how they are treated by the state be dependent upon the wealth of their parents?

[classycarra]

And Jezza has been supporting Evo Morales (Burgon too) after his chickens came home to roost over the weekend (basically got the Supreme Court to get rid of term limits as he lost the referendum on it, staged a rigged election recently and around 10% of the population demonstrated against him), another gift for the Tories there the utter fuckwit

Good sourced article on this here, and is related to the discussion with Timbo's Goals the other day about Corbyn's ugly disregard for international left wingers

https://capx.co/bolivia-democracy-and-corbyn-its-not-pretty/

[redmark]

I simply cannot understand the scrapping of tuition fees.

It’s a tax break for the middle classes.

Make the threshold for repayment higher.  Give very generous bursaries to people from disadvantaged backgrounds so they don’t have to worry about any finances

But giving billions to the middle classes just seems so regressive...

I agree, if we look at policies simply in terms of immediate cost/benefit to the treasury versus which individuals pay/benefit. That said, it's not the worst tax break you could give, but shouldn't be an urgent first term priority.

But politicians from all parties talk about the importance of a high skills base necessary for the UK economy. It could/should be argued that as part of a wider set of policies (including increased funding for vocational education, extended modern apprenticeship schemes, subsidies for minimum wage for the youngest, etc.) this would be an investment in young people which should more than pay off in future economic growth and tax receipts. But that requires a long term view, which politicians shy away from.

[BoRed]

Good sourced article on this here, and is related to the discussion with Timbo's Goals the other day about Corbyn's ugly disregard for international left wingers

https://capx.co/bolivia-democracy-and-corbyn-its-not-pretty/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CapX

Conservative politician Paul Goodman wrote on the political website ConservativeHome in October 2014, recommending that readers should add CapX to their reading list.

I'm sure they're objective, though.

[Zeb]

Should see what Paul Canning writes on OpenDemocracy...

[classycarra]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CapX

I'm sure they're objective, though.

On a day you’ve quoted right winger Guido Fawkes?

As I said, it’s sourced. The lack of attempt to refute any of the sourced arguments and instead try to shut down the discussion with a sensationalist smear says more than enough.

One conservative politician recommended reading the site five years, and not even the author - truly you’ve gone full tabloid there would have expected better than a dumb straw man from you mate.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Eek!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-50381728/the-fake-video-where-johnson-and-corbyn-endorse-each-other

[OneTouchFooty]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CapX

I'm sure they're objective, though.

Par for the course here nowadays, people defending and justifying a violent, fascist coup under the guise of having “concerns about their democracy” 

[ShakaHislop]

Labour Revolt Over Corbyn Ally Who Shared Image Of Theresa May At Gunpoint

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-revolt-over-corbyn-ally-who-shared-image-of-theresa-may-at-gunpoint_uk_5dc56207e4b02bf5793e53c0

Labour members urge party to drop candidate who shared Theresa May gun picture

Local Labour members have called on the party to drop a candidate who shared an image of Theresa May with a gun pointing at her head.

Jarrow Constituency Labour Party said it was "astonishing" that Kate Osborne had been imposed on them by senior officials.

Ms Osborne was forced to apologise for sharing the offending image on Facebook in the run-up to the 2017 election.

A special Labour selection panel unanimously agreed on Saturday that she will stand in Jarrow at the general election - despite a plea by female MPs for the party to think again.

In a letter to Labour’s general secretary Jennie Formby, members of the Jarrow CLP and other branches insisted their protest "not about political views” and pointed out that Ms Osborne shared the image less than a year after the murder of Jo Cox.

“In an environment of increasing threats of violence against woman politicians of all political parties (including several signatories to this letter), it seems astonishing to us that someone who has posted such content is deemed suitable to be a parliamentary candidate for Labour,” they said.

“As we understand from the media Kate has apologised for the post.

“However sometimes an apology is not enough: in our view the judgement demonstrated by posting such an appalling and unacceptable image in first place should incompatible with Labour candidature.

“The endorsement of such a candidate sends a message that threats of violence against women in politics can sometimes be accepted.

“We urge you even at this late stage to reconsider your decision and remove Kate Osborne from being our candidate in Jarrow. We look forward to urgent assistance in this matter.”

Ms Osborne, who failed last week to be chosen as a candidate in Blyth Valley, is a member of Unite's executive council and is thought to have the support of those close to Jeremy Corbyn.

In response to the letter from Jarrow members, a Labour source said: “Unlike the other two male candidates in this race, Kate has lived in the area for 30 years.

“And, given the circumstances in which this seat became available, it’s right that Labour’s candidate is a woman.

“The panel’s decision was unanimous and the panel included CLP and regional representation, which has nothing to do with Unite.

“Kate worked for Royal Mail for 25 years, she’s a councillor, and a self-identifying LGBT+ woman and an active campaigner for LGBT+ rights.

"She deleted the parody image of Theresa May two years ago when concerns about it were first raised and has fully apologised."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/107895/labour-members-urge-party-drop-candidate-who

I assume this is in reference to the previous Labour MP for Jarrow being suspended for having sexual harrassment allegations made against him, but I don't see why that necessarily means whoever replaces him must be a woman.

MP Stephen Hepburn Suspended From Labour Party Over Sexual Harassment Allegation

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mp-stephen-hepburn-suspended-from-labour-over-sex-harassment-allegation_uk_5d9b0e40e4b03b475f9c7972

[classycarra]

Par for the course here nowadays, people defending and justifying a violent, fascist coup under the guise of having “concerns about their democracy” 

Here are over 10% of the Bolivian population protesting for democracy, and against Evo Morales
https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1193820924145020928

Here are left wing miners being shot at for wanting to join protests against Morales (lots of informative stuff in that thread that it'd appear would be quite educational)
https://twitter.com/pauloCanning/status/1193587085908873216

Here is the most powerful trade union calling for Morales's resignation
https://twitter.com/pauloCanning/status/1193573175432482816

Here are Morales supporters marching with weapons chanting for a civil war
https://twitter.com/JhanisseVDaza/status/1193980096459227138

But sure, me being on the side of those who want democracy to remain is a bad thing

Rather share sourced articles that support my argument than parrot the sort of lowest common denominator ignorance that you have with your baseless one liner post

[TepidT2O]

I'm not sure I agree with this, as someone who has come from a deprived background, but had the advantage of free university education.

Could you throw out some figures about your thinking?
1. Threshold of pay where you have to pay back
2. Level of poverty where you can get a bursary
3. Size of bursary

1. Someone would need to do the Maths

2. Could be a sliding scale. Free school meals equivalent would no tuition fees and £20k bursary a year.

[TepidT2O]

From a practical and state finance point of view, I understand from where you are coming from on this. However, the students are all adults - should how they are treated by the state be dependent upon the wealth of their parents?

Look, in theory I agree.

But in practice and with finite budgets?

I’d spend it elsewhere first

[Elmo!]

1. Someone would need to do the Maths

2. Could be a sliding scale. Free school meals equivalent would no tuition fees and £20k bursary a year.

I have a lot of sympathy for your argument, and there are issues with free tuition in Scotland (cuts to grants, universities cutting places for Scottish students so they can rake in fees from international students), but there is a benefit I believe, which is hard to quantify with numbers, in universalism and the culture it breeds. There is no resentment from the the wealthy towards the poor that their tax money is being spent on poor peoples tuition, because they also benefit from it.

The same argument goes for school meals which are now free for all students up to primary 3.

[TepidT2O]

I have a lot of sympathy for your argument, and there are issues with free tuition in Scotland (cuts to grants, universities cutting places for Scottish students so they can rake in fees from international students), but there is a benefit I believe, which is hard to quantify with numbers, in universalism and the culture it breeds. There is no resentment from the the wealthy towards the poor that their tax money is being spent on poor peoples tuition, because they also benefit from it.

I don’t disagree.

But with finite budgets? This would be way way down my priority list as it’s a middle class benefit mostly.

And I don’t want the rest of the UK to be following aspects of the Scottish education system. It’s reform has been....  unusual

[classycarra]

1. Someone would need to do the Maths

The IFS did - see my post further up

[filopastry]

The IFS are well worth reading on a few things, I posted one of their recent articles on the general politics thread, setting out some of the challenges facing the British economy, some surprising data in there on intl tax rates, our tax take (tax as a % of GDP is now higher than during the Blair/Brown governments) and a reminder that the tax take will need to go up for us just to stand still, due to the ongoing impact of our aging population on the pension bill, the NHS and care costs)

To be honest it is one of the pieces of political wizardry the current addition of the Labour party has pulled off, convincing a fair number of people that they can have a dramatically expanded state without any cost to them, why wouldn't people like universal free university education or any of the other wishlist areas if they are convinced that "The Few" will pay for it and it will cost them nothing.

There aren't really eany tough choices to make on spending priorities if you think someone else will pay for it

[Ray K]

Guess it was inevitable really

[filopastry]

Guess it was inevitable really

That is priceless

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Should see what Paul Canning writes on OpenDemocracy...

yeah, well worth a follow on Twitter, is excellent on Latin America but of course those who were invested in the likes of morales being the second coming when like Hugo their success was based on their natural resources and prices going up and not their underlying ability would always try to throw a few dead cats, and of course I doubt the morning star would ever accept that article

[Jiminy Cricket]

Look, in theory I agree.

But in practice and with finite budgets?

I’d spend it elsewhere first

As I said, I understand from where you are coming from. As you may recall from several previous dialogues, I wish for society to get away from inheriting wealth. So, treating people (adults) as a wholly economically independent individual would seem a natural extension of this. But, to be clear, I actually agree with you that there are far greater and more pressing priorities than providing free higher education for all. And - I may have missed it in the thread - the very idea of being able to provide free higher education within the likely scenario of a post-Brexit UK is cloud cuckoo land.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Par for the course here nowadays, people defending and justifying a violent, fascist coup under the guise of having “concerns about their democracy” 

And also par for the course people defending the indefensible when it comes to the trash left

[Elmo!]

I don’t disagree.

But with finite budgets? This would be way way down my priority list as it’s a middle class benefit mostly.

And I don’t want the rest of the UK to be following aspects of the Scottish education system. It’s reform has been....  unusual

Unusual in what way?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://systemicalternatives.org/2019/11/11/what-happened-in-bolivia-was-there-a-coup/

Bit more on Bolivia here

[TepidT2O]

Unusual in what way?

Well, it’s crap

The changes to the Scottish curriculum do the very opposite of what research shows works.  It’s incredibly silly


Anyway.  Off topic

[Elmo!]

Well, it’s crap

The changes to the Scottish curriculum do the very opposite of what research shows works.  It’s incredibly silly


Anyway.  Off topic

I know its a bit off topic but come on, you're throwing around accusations without backing them up again. Which bits are you talking about? I'm genuinely interested, not just being defensive. I'm well aware it is not perfect up here.

[TepidT2O]

I know its a bit off topic but come on, you're throwing around accusations without backing them up again. Which bits are you talking about? I'm genuinely interested, not just being defensive. I'm well aware it is not perfect up here.

The move towards a themed rather than subject specific curriculum in schools.  Skills prioritised over knowledge.

It’s the death knell of any country’s educational standards...

It’s very easy to fall for the false flag of skills over knowledge, but it’s sad that Scotland have done so.

(Nothing to do with being Scottish of course, could easily or may easily happen in the rest of the UK too in the future)

[Zeb]

yeah, well worth a follow on Twitter, is excellent on Latin America but of course those who were invested in the likes of morales being the second coming when like Hugo their success was based on their natural resources and prices going up and not their underlying ability would always try to throw a few dead cats, and of course I doubt the morning star would ever accept that article

Foreign policy and Latin America is very marginal to a British general election but I do find it fascinating how it sends parts of the left from 'look at us - we read GDH Cole and Gramsci' to 'tankies in tinfoil hats are our friends'. Kind of watching Labour reporting being DDoS'd with that in mind. Pass on anything beyond that, although there's a parallel thing going on around Frottage and those who placed unquestioning trust in him.

[filopastry]

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 28% (+2)
LDEM: 15% (-2)
BREX: 4% (-6)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @YouGov, 11 - 12 Nov
Chgs. w/ 08 Nov.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Foreign policy and Latin America is very marginal to a British general election but I do find it fascinating how it sends parts of the left from 'look at us - we read GDH Cole and Gramsci' to 'tankies in tinfoil hats are our friends'. Kind of watching Labour reporting being DDoS'd with that in mind. Pass on anything beyond that, although there's a parallel thing going on around Frottage and those who placed unquestioning trust in him.

i just don’t see how they can ‘win’ from defending someone like morales unless they know the gravy train is nearly finished and setting themselves up for the future, granted this isn’t anywhere near as bad as moggs grenfell comments but it’s dumb nonetheless

[Zeb]

i just don’t see how they can ‘win’ from defending someone like morales unless they know the gravy train is nearly finished and setting themselves up for the future, granted this isn’t anywhere near as bad as moggs grenfell comments but it’s dumb nonetheless

Who's going to be paying attention who hasn't already priced that general worldview into their voting intention? In terms of on here being a bubble, made from time to time, I think the criticism holds up so far as the news forum is really representative of being very engaged with current events/news almost all the time. Have a look at what stories have reached even a reasonable number of people according to Ashcroft's polling (7th - 11th November):

Spoiler

[close]

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/brexitalex/status/1194182863077466112?s=21

Still happy to take that 6 figure salary tho

[BoRed]

On a day you’ve quoted right winger Guido Fawkes?

I provided the source for the screenshots, which I believe is standard procedure. I also immediately added that they were not the best source, unlike you. They were not my source for the story itself, which was by the morning to be found in just about every paper.

As I said, it’s sourced. The lack of attempt to refute any of the sourced arguments and instead try to shut down the discussion with a sensationalist smear says more than enough.

I have no reason to either doubt or refute his claims about Bolivia, but the article was not a factual news story about Bolivia, it was an opinion piece about, bizarrely, Jeremy Corbyn. And the bits about Corbyn were as biased, slanted and selective as it gets, so it does make sense to inform oneself about the author and the website. I'd never heard of the site before, so I googled it, and it's not pretty.

I also took the trouble to see where the site stands on Tory support of Saudi Arabia, a regime you'll hopefully agree is a bit less democratic than Morales's Bolivia. So I found an article entitled "Time to get real about Saudi Arabia", about the hypocrisy in the West when talking about the Saudi regime. The hypocrisy of the "liberal Left", of course. (https://capx.co/time-to-get-real-about-saudi-arabia/)

But perhaps this charming article will convince you that it might not be a good idea to take their articles at face value:

Why a second referendum would be a first class mistake

One day I suspect we will see the campaign for a second referendum in the same light as Communism, the Reliant Robin and that tattoo of your Ex’s face: an obviously bad idea in hindsight, but one that exercised a baffling appeal at the time.

...

https://capx.co/why-a-second-referendum-would-be-a-first-class-mistake/

Not pretty at all.

[Iska]

The move towards a themed rather than subject specific curriculum in schools.  Skills prioritised over knowledge.

It’s the death knell of any country’s educational standards...

It’s very easy to fall for the false flag of skills over knowledge, but it’s sad that Scotland have done so.

(Nothing to do with being Scottish of course, could easily or may easily happen in the rest of the UK too in the future)

Have you got links to anything about this?  I’d like to know more.

[AndyMuller]

Jesus christ the tory party election broadcast is embarrassing. Boris talking utter shite.

[classycarra]

I provided the source for the screenshots, which I believe is standard procedure. I also immediately added that they were not the best source, unlike you. They were not my source for the story itself, which was by the morning to be found in just about every paper.

This is a seriously odd post. You don't seem to understand what authorship is? I think you need to work on analysing sources. That website is clearly hosting/publishing an article and you'll see that the sources are not from other authors on there.

You seemed to think that one conservative politician liking the website in 2014 meant that the sources provided in the article five years later weren't accurate? If you were consistent, instead of trying to make a little strawman, you would have thought twice about posting news sourced from Guido Fawkes who fascists, Tories and racists also frequently recommend.

They were not my source for the story itself, which was by the morning to be found in just about every paper.

Well, you've quickly changed your story from this morning. Which one is it, you saw it breaking from Guido and waited for a Guardian, or you picked it up in the morning newspapers?

https://order-order.com/2019/11/11/lib-dem-candidate-repeatedly-used-n-word-rtard-twitter/

It's breaking news, so I expect there'll be a better source soon. It's also been confirmed in the Guardian's live coverage: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/11/general-election-parties-vie-for-veterans-votes-as-keith-vaz-quits-politics-live?page=with:block-5dc9d3d08f08c2d1f80ddfab#block-5dc9d3d08f08c2d1f80ddfab

----------

I have no reason to either doubt or refute his claims about Bolivia, but the article was not a factual news story about Bolivia, it was an opinion piece about, bizarrely, Jeremy Corbyn.

Why are you writing this as if you've stumbled upon some heinous revelation? Wasn't that dramatic. I replied to a post about Corbyn's internationalism, providing a link to an article on the very same topic and clearly stated that's what it was. I think you must've mistakenly thought it was something other than the comment piece it clearly is.

Again, the lack of engagement about the actual points in the argument, only trying to shoot the messenger to refute it, tells its own clear story.

And the bits about Corbyn were as biased, slanted and selective as it gets, so it does make sense to inform oneself about the author and the website. I'd never heard of the site before, so I googled it, and it's not pretty.

I also took the trouble to see where the site stands on Tory support of Saudi Arabia, a regime you'll hopefully agree is a bit less democratic than Morales's Bolivia. So I found an article entitled "Time to get real about Saudi Arabia", about the hypocrisy in the West when talking about the Saudi regime. The hypocrisy of the "liberal Left", of course. (https://capx.co/time-to-get-real-about-saudi-arabia/)

Here you go again, continuing the 'do as I say not as I do' mantra.

Moments after suggesting you have a problem with selective quoting and bias, you've literally cherry picked an opinion piece by an entirely different person to suggest it's representative of Canning? I'm not interested in posting some of the racist Guido Fawkes shit they post, so I'll save you that embarrassment, but I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone suggested that a post from me (or Alan, or whoever else makes it into your upset signature) represented you since we're both posting on RAWK.