Topic: Rogue One - 2 Siths, 1 Saber

[Something Worse]

The point I was trying to make is that the original Star Wars itself was derivative.  I think some people are over analysing a Star Wars movie, but then maybe I'm just over analysing the analysis

Derivative of other movies in 77 is nowhere near as obvious and insipid as these new ones being derivative of their own heritage in 2015/6 though.

[Rob Dylan]

Important to remember that the original Star Wars itself borrowed liberally from tropes; from an objective, critical standpoint it's a film based on cliché, bordering out outright plagiarism.

Setting aside for a moment the fantasy plot and stereotypical characters, Lucas totally ripped off the SF genre - everything from Flash Gordon to Dune.  There's very little about Star Wars that is original if you want to analyse it.

For some reason the OT gets away with it, whereas the new films are bombarded by a level of scrutiny they just can't stand up to.  Which played the safer game, for example?  TFA or Rogue One?  My answer is, who the feck cares?

Not aimed at anybody in particular on here, but there seems to be a delight in picking the film apart simply because it's Star Wars, rather than being able to enjoy it for being Star Wars.  Rogue One has gotten a hammering in some quarters, seemingly because people knew in advance what the story was going to be, so they wanted to see something else in the movie that justified telling it.

Exactly right. If we wanted to, we could sit down and pick apart the OT, pointing out plot holes, cliches, cheesy dialogue, characters who aren't 'developed' (whatever that means), less than seamless exposition etc etc. But we don't, and that's for two main reasons. One is that our main memory of them is from childhood, when we loved them and didn't analyse them and pick them apart. But the other is that whatever flaws they had, the positives massively outweigh the negatives. People didn't love the originals because they were perfect, with no flaws, perfect pacing, a perfectly written script where every character was fully developed, no cliches and 100% original plots and ideas...we loved them because they were spectacular, exciting, funny,  and we liked the characters and cared about what happened to them. Nowadays people always seem to be looking for a 'perfect' film where you can't criticise any particular element of it - but no such film exists. And when we love a film it's not because we can clinically analyse it and say that it has no flaws...we love it because of how it makes us feel and what it does well, despite any flaws it may have. It's an emotional response not an analytical one. Also, people somehow seem to expect these films to make them feel like they did when they were kids but they never will...when we were kids we didn't cynically dissect and analyse every aspect of it, we just enjoyed the spectacle in front of us.

People will have differing opinions on TFA and R1, but whatever their weaknesses I believe they both get far more right than they get wrong. There's too much analysis of these films, I'm not sure what people expect from Star Wars, because a lot of the things they criticise these two films for, can easily be aimed at the OT. That's not to say we should just accept any old rubbish, because then you can end up with the prequels. But the thing about those films is that the negatives massively outweighed the positives, and it was obvious just watching them for the first time, they just felt wrong and sometimes plain embarassing. You didn't need to sit down and analyse them afterwards, it was just obvious straight off that they were poor films. But I didn't get the same feeling watching TFA and R1, they were just enjoyable and felt right. Obviously they're not perfect, but in terms of story, characters, dialogue and the way they look (i.e. real), they are still light years ahead of the prequels.

And it's a bit unfair to criticise R1 for being 'derivative' when it is set literally a few days before ANH, and we already know the general plot and how it ends. There will be some slight changes of tone through all these new films, but they're not going to change drastically, and nor should they. This is Star Wars, I don't know what people expect. As long as the films themselves remain of high quality (regardless of how they relate to the previous films) I don't see a problem. SW films are done in a particular style, there has to be some variations in style but they're always going to be in a similar vein.

[Rob Dylan]

Derivative of other movies in 77 is nowhere near as obvious and insipid as these new ones being derivative of their own heritage in 2015/6 though.

The point is that you're expecting something of these new films that was never true of the originals. If the OT is the benchmark for quality SW films, it seems a bit unfair to criticise these new films for not being better...you're not judging them by the same standards. And it's actually much more difficult to do something new with Star Wars now. When the OT came out, Lucas could literally make it up as he went along  - anything was possible and he could define that whole world however he wanted it. But now everything is already defined and there are certain 'rules' to that universe.

Also, a lot of different stories have already been told in that world, it's difficult to come up with something that's 100% new. You could go off on tangents and get into complicated backstories about the history of the Jedi and Sith etc, the sort of stuff that some fanboys would love, but then you're getting lost in the technicalities of that universe, and moving too far away from the simple fantasy / mythical type of story that was at the heart of the OT, just simple stories of good v evil, heroes going on quests, overcoming adversity, etc etc. - where you don't need to know all the background and the names of all the obscure characters and which aliens live on which planets. It ultimately has to come back to those original, simple ideas otherwise it loses the heart of what it was all about (and that's what TFA tried to do, to create the start point for a new set of adventures for a new generation).

Also just one more point...people criticise these films for not trying enough new things, but when they do try new / different things they get criticised for it not being 'Star Wars' enough, or for breaking some unwritten rules (e.g. Rey can't possibly do that because we haven't seen her go through exactly the same training as Luke and Anakin). They can't really win.

[Something Worse]

Exactly right. If we wanted to, we could sit down and pick apart the OT, pointing out plot holes, cliches, cheesy dialogue, characters who aren't 'developed' (whatever that means), less than seamless exposition etc etc. But we don't, and that's for two main reasons. One is that our main memory of them is from childhood, when we loved them and didn't analyse them and pick them apart. But the other is that whatever flaws they had, the positives massively outweigh the negatives. People didn't love the originals because they were perfect, with no flaws, perfect pacing, a perfectly written script where every character was fully developed, no cliches and 100% original plots and ideas...we loved them because they were spectacular, exciting, funny,  and we liked the characters and cared about what happened to them. Nowadays people always seem to be looking for a 'perfect' film where you can't criticise any particular element of it - but no such film exists. And when we love a film it's not because we can clinically analyse it and say that it has no flaws...we love it because of how it makes us feel and what it does well, despite any flaws it may have. It's an emotional response not an analytical one. Also, people somehow seem to expect these films to make them feel like they did when they were kids but they never will...when we were kids we didn't cynically dissect and analyse every aspect of it, we just enjoyed the spectacle in front of us.

People will have differing opinions on TFA and R1, but whatever their weaknesses I believe they both get far more right than they get wrong. There's too much analysis of these films, I'm not sure what people expect from Star Wars, because a lot of the things they criticise these two films for, can easily be aimed at the OT. That's not to say we should just accept any old rubbish, because then you can end up with the prequels. But the thing about those films is that the negatives massively outweighed the positives, and it was obvious just watching them for the first time, they just felt wrong and sometimes plain embarassing. You didn't need to sit down and analyse them afterwards, it was just obvious straight off that they were poor films. But I didn't get the same feeling watching TFA and R1, they were just enjoyable and felt right. Obviously they're not perfect, but in terms of story, characters, dialogue and the way they look (i.e. real), they are still light years ahead of the prequels.

And it's a bit unfair to criticise R1 for being 'derivative' when it is set literally a few days before ANH, and we already know the general plot and how it ends. There will be some slight changes of tone through all these new films, but they're not going to change drastically, and nor should they. This is Star Wars, I don't know what people expect. As long as the films themselves remain of high quality (regardless of how they relate to the previous films) I don't see a problem. SW films are done in a particular style, there has to be some variations in style but they're always going to be in a similar vein.

I think your posts on this can be boiled down to "I like these movies and I don't know why other people don't". That's really just a difference of opinion. I found both movies to be flat, unimaginative and cheap - cashing in on the nostalgia of the OT to make everyone feel good without actually capturing any of the true essence of Star Wars (yes, "true essence" is a nebulous term). There's just nothing special about them. That doesn't come from dissecting them and ripping apart everything wrong with them, it's just the feeling I get/got when I saw them.

The point is that you're expecting something of these new films that was never true of the originals. If the OT is the benchmark for quality SW films, it seems a bit unfair to criticise these new films for not being better...you're not judging them by the same standards. And it's actually much more difficult to do something new with Star Wars now. When the OT came out, Lucas could literally make it up as he went along  - anything was possible and he could define that whole world however he wanted it. But now everything is already defined and there are certain 'rules' to that universe.

Also, a lot of different stories have already been told in that world, it's difficult to come up with something that's 100% new. You could go off on tangents and get into complicated backstories about the history of the Jedi and Sith etc, the sort of stuff that some fanboys would love, but then you're getting lost in the technicalities of that universe, and moving too far away from the simple fantasy / mythical type of story that was at the heart of the OT, just simple stories of good v evil, heroes going on quests, overcoming adversity, etc etc. - where you don't need to know all the background and the names of all the obscure characters and which aliens live on which planets. It ultimately has to come back to those original, simple ideas otherwise it loses the heart of what it was all about (and that's what TFA tried to do, to create the start point for a new set of adventures for a new generation).

Also just one more point...people criticise these films for not trying enough new things, but when they do try new / different things they get criticised for it not being 'Star Wars' enough, or for breaking some unwritten rules (e.g. Rey can't possibly do that because we haven't seen her go through exactly the same training as Luke and Anakin). They can't really win.

I don't think "Rey is a bad character who does whatever Abrams needs her to because he's a hack" is breaking any rules. I also didn't judge these two by the standards of the OT, just purely as movies in that universe.

[Rob Dylan]

I think your posts on this can be boiled down to "I like these movies and I don't know why other people don't". That's really just a difference of opinion. I found both movies to be flat, unimaginative and cheap - cashing in on the nostalgia of the OT to make everyone feel good without actually capturing any of the true essence of Star Wars (yes, "true essence" is a nebulous term). There's just nothing special about them. That doesn't come from dissecting them and ripping apart everything wrong with them, it's just the feeling I get/got when I saw them.

If that was all I was trying to say, then I would have just said that.

I've actually gone through and explained my arguments against what you've said, it's not just 'I like these movies'. One of the things I'm trying to get across is that I don't know what you were expecting from a SW film....you're judging them by standards that you don't apply to the OT. Honestly, if you saw the OT for the first time now, would you think it was 'special'?  These films are not going to make you feel like you did when you were a kid, because you're not a kid anymore.

[Rob Dylan]

I also didn't judge these two by the standards of the OT, just purely as movies in that universe.

But in judging them 'as movies in that universe', you are judging them against the OT, because we only have the OT and the PT to define what SW actually is. And if you're judging them against the OT then it's only fair to judge them by the same standards. If someone is disappointed with these movies it's fair to assume that it's because they think they're not as good as the OT (it wouldn't make sense to be disappointed with them if you already thought the OT was cliched rubbish). So then it's not really fair to criticise them for things that the OT is also guilty of.

(Just realised I said OT about 15 times there...)

[Something Worse]

If that was all I was trying to say, then I would have just said that.

I've actually gone through and explained my arguments against what you've said, it's not just 'I like these movies'. One of the things I'm trying to get across is that I don't know what you were expecting from a SW film....you're judging them by standards that you don't apply to the OT. Honestly, if you saw the OT for the first time now, would you think it was 'special'?  These films are not going to make you feel like you did when you were a kid, because you're not a kid anymore.
But in judging them 'as movies in that universe', you are judging them against the OT, because we only have the OT and the PT to define what SW actually is. And if you're judging them against the OT then it's only fair to judge them by the same standards. If someone is disappointed with these movies it's fair to assume that it's because they think they're not as good as the OT (it wouldn't make sense to be disappointed with them if you already thought the OT was cliched rubbish). So then it's not really fair to criticise them for things that the OT is also guilty of.

(Just realised I said OT about 15 times there...)

But you're arguing your opinion against mine. You saying "you're over analyzing these movies and comparing them with the OT which is unfair". Fine. But if I am doing that, and I am disliking these movies for every reason you said...it's still my opinion. It's nearly impossible to tear apart a movie to someone who likes it. I can say "I hate Rey being stronger than Luke with no training in five minutes of screen time" and you can think of excuses that make sense to you. Others will agree with you. Some won't. You've nailed your flag to the mast here - you're balls deep in this new Star Wars universe. That's a good thing. I can't do the same, there's too much I dislike about it. And I can list them, and you can counter them, and neither of us will change our opinion.

And that goes back to my original post:

 

Or...

people didn't like it for various reasons including how derivative it was? Not everything is some shady agenda you know!

[voodoo ray]

bloody hell

[Rob Dylan]

But you're arguing your opinion against mine. You saying "you're over analyzing these movies and comparing them with the OT which is unfair". Fine. But if I am doing that, and I am disliking these movies for every reason you said...it's still my opinion. It's nearly impossible to tear apart a movie to someone who likes it. I can say "I hate Rey being stronger than Luke with no training in five minutes of screen time" and you can think of excuses that make sense to you. Others will agree with you. Some won't. You've nailed your flag to the mast here - you're balls deep in this new Star Wars universe. That's a good thing. I can't do the same, there's too much I dislike about it. And I can list them, and you can counter them, and neither of us will change our opinion.

Of course it's all opinions, I'm just saying that if your opinion is based on a flawed assumption (that you expect these movies to meet standards that you don't expect of the OT) then your opinion is going to be flawed.

[Something Worse]

Of course it's all opinions, I'm just saying that if your opinion is based on a flawed assumption (that you expect these movies to meet standards that you don't expect of the OT) then your opinion is going to be flawed.

And if you're easily pleased and can't think critically then you're gonna be spoiled for choice over the next few years.

[WillG.LFC]

Think I gave force awakens 6 out of 10 and rogue one 6.5 out of 10. Decent first tries but if they continue to roll out these types of films then they will get boring fast. After they finish this trilogy and the 3 individual films I'd like something from a seperate story line either in the past or further in the future to expand on the sith/jedi stuff as thats ultimately the basis of star wars not x character is lost from their family and has secret powers and y group of people help them to achieve greatness. Can't have trilogy after trilogy of that

[Rob Dylan]

And if you're easily pleased and can't think critically then you're gonna be spoiled for choice over the next few years.

And if you're incredibly patronising and have a misplaced sense of superiority then you're going to have a lot of fun too.

Since when was 'thinking critically' an important prerequisite for enjoying Star Wars?

[Rob Dylan]

Think I gave force awakens 6 out of 10 and rogue one 6.5 out of 10. Decent first tries but if they continue to roll out these types of films then they will get boring fast. After they finish this trilogy and the 3 individual films I'd like something from a seperate story line either in the past or further in the future to expand on the sith/jedi stuff as thats ultimately the basis of star wars not x character is lost from their family and has secret powers and y group of people help them to achieve greatness. Can't have trilogy after trilogy of that

But that actually is the basis of Star Wars - the Force / Jedi stuff was really just a backdrop in ANH, and I don't think the word Sith was ever used in the orginal trilogy. It started out as a story based on myths / legends / fairy tales, and on traditional ideas of a hero going on a quest and fulfilling their destiny. The other stuff was all just window dressing. You're right that the more films they make, the more variations they'll need to do, but they can't completely lose touch with those simple ideas because that's what it's all based on, and why it can appeal to so many people. Going too far into all the Jedi / Sith stuff will only appeal to fanboys and people who know all the history and obscure characters.

[WillG.LFC]

Personally think there is more room for variation in the good v evil/jedi v sith story. It won't appeal to fanboys only if its a good story. Imagine they remade the matrix again and basically followed the same story about the one realising they were the one and then freeing zion. Be dull and repetitive but probably enjoyable as ep 7 was.

Reckon you can probably guess the basic story to ep 8 as it will most likely mirror ep 5 as they know it works. The bad guys will probably attack a rebel base so we get another battle with rey confronting kylo and possibly losing an arm after being trained by yoderrrrluke

[Ken-Obi]

Reckon you can probably guess the basic story to ep 8 as it will most likely mirror ep 5 as they know it works. The bad guys will probably attack a rebel base so we get another battle with rey confronting kylo and possibly losing an arm after being trained by yoderrrrluke

"I am your brother!".

[WillG.LFC]

"I am your brother!".

In law, Twice removed dun dun duuuuun

Should do ep 8 as luke being tracked down for avoiding child maintenance. Be a story no one is expecting

[oojason]

In law, Twice removed dun dun duuuuun

Should do ep 8 as luke being tracked down for avoiding child maintenance. Be a story no one is expecting

Ah, the CSA - the ultimate power in the universe!

His Force powers will not work on them...

[Something Worse]

And if you're incredibly patronising and have a misplaced sense of superiority then you're going to have a lot of fun too.

Since when was 'thinking critically' an important prerequisite for enjoying Star Wars?

Probably around the time "blindly thinking everything you see is good because it's got loud noises and bright colours" stopped becoming an important prerequisite for enjoying anything.

Probably around your fourth birthday.

[voodoo ray]

^ that is an utter c*nt of a comment.



over analysing everything is usually the death of it.

I enjoyed it. Both times. Other people didn't, and that's fine. In fact, that's life in general. I can't be arsed trying to change their opinion or justify mine.

[Something Worse]

^ that is an utter c*nt of a comment.



over analysing everything is usually the death of it.

I enjoyed it. Both times. Other people didn't, and that's fine. In fact, that's life in general. I can't be arsed trying to change their opinion or justify mine.

Which is exactly what I said at the beginning, albeit without being hyper sensitive. Rob appears to think that the only valid opinion is the one where you accept that the new star wars movies are good because you just ignore all the bad stuff.

Because Star Wars!

[Red Beret]

Derivative of other movies in 77 is nowhere near as obvious and insipid as these new ones being derivative of their own heritage in 2015/6 though.

Sorry but derivative of other movies in 77 is blatantly obvious.  The original Star Wars is a magpie of a film - it's composed of other films, but in new ways.  But I don't care because it's a great film.

Both TFA and Rogue One are derivative of the existing Star Wars universe.  In that sense - and pardon the pun - they're a clone of a clone.  In any case I much preferred Rogue One to TFA because I held TFA to a higher standard that it didn't meet.  They had a chance to tell a new story, which they didn't do.  With Rogue One, I knew the story I was getting and was able to switch off from the rest.  I was able to suspend disbelief and just be a kid again for a couple of hours.

For the rest of it, I'm just going to defer to Rob.

[Something Worse]

Sorry but derivative of other movies in 77 is blatantly obvious.  The original Star Wars is a magpie of a film - it's composed of other films, but in new ways.  But I don't care because it's a great film.

Both TFA and Rogue One are derivative of the existing Star Wars universe.  In that sense - and pardon the pun - they're a clone of a clone.  In any case I much preferred Rogue One to TFA because I held TFA to a higher standard that it didn't meet.  They had a chance to tell a new story, which they didn't do.  With Rogue One, I knew the story I was getting and was able to switch off from the rest.  I was able to suspend disbelief and just be a kid again for a couple of hours.

For the rest of it, I'm just going to defer to Rob.

How many of the movies Star Wars lifted from are as popular as Star Wars? When you lift from lesser known works and make a magpie of a movie it's a lot less obvious than when you remake a Star Wars movie almost scene for scene in a Star Wars sequel.

As to your second point about switching off, I've said from the beginning that's a good thing. Far better to enjoy a movie than the alternative. Rob is arguing that not enjoying these new Star Wars movies is an invalid opinion because people are over analyzing them and being critical. That's a ridiculous position to take.

[cptrios]

How many millions of times do you think variations of this argument have been had around the world? If you spend any time on TVTropes (and it's near-impossible not to once you go start), you're likely to make one of two conclusions: 1. Everything you like is actually shit because it's been done to death already, or 2. Yeah, everything's been done to death already, so that means we can all relax and just ask for it to be done well. I vastly prefer #2.

Did Rogue One and TFA do it well? Yes and no, I think. But my expectations for both weren't particularly high on that front. They're Star Wars movies, bearing the full, oppressive weight of 6 movies, loads of books, I believe over a hundred video games, ten or so TV shows, comic books, toys, etc etc etc. I didn't go in to Rogue One expecting it to be the love child of Ingmar Bergman and Shane Carruth (which, by the way, would also have made it derivative). These movies cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and are considered "disappointing" if they don't hit $1billion worldwide...so yeah, they're not going to be breaking a lot of ground.

Having said that, sure, we should demand some sense of originality from the enormous and well-funded organization behind these movies (though one could argue that simply by having everyone die in R1, they pushed the boundaries pretty damned far for a Star Wars movie). I do have a little bit of hope for Episode 8, since Rian Johnson is a pretty interesting filmmaker in his own right. But my expectations for a satisfactory experience are pretty well below that hope.

[Something Worse]

How many millions of times do you think variations of this argument have been had around the world? If you spend any time on TVTropes (and it's near-impossible not to once you go start), you're likely to make one of two conclusions: 1. Everything you like is actually shit because it's been done to death already, or 2. Yeah, everything's been done to death already, so that means we can all relax and just ask for it to be done well. I vastly prefer #2.

Did Rogue One and TFA do it well? Yes and no, I think. But my expectations for both weren't particularly high on that front. They're Star Wars movies, bearing the full, oppressive weight of 6 movies, loads of books, I believe over a hundred video games, ten or so TV shows, comic books, toys, etc etc etc. I didn't go in to Rogue One expecting it to be the love child of Ingmar Bergman and Shane Carruth (which, by the way, would also have made it derivative). These movies cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and are considered "disappointing" if they don't hit $1billion worldwide...so yeah, they're not going to be breaking a lot of ground.

Having said that, sure, we should demand some sense of originality from the enormous and well-funded organization behind these movies (though one could argue that simply by having everyone die in R1, they pushed the boundaries pretty damned far for a Star Wars movie). I do have a little bit of hope for Episode 8, since Rian Johnson is a pretty interesting filmmaker in his own right. But my expectations for a satisfactory experience are pretty well below that hope.

My main issue was really just with 7 being so similar to the OT. Rogue One wasn't a great movie for me but it was a decent watch and I didn't feel cheated like I did with 7.

I agree with the rest of your post though, fwiw.

[cptrios]

My main issue was really just with 7 being so similar to the OT. Rogue One wasn't a great movie for me but it was a decent watch and I didn't feel cheated like I did with 7.

I agree with the rest of your post though, fwiw.

Ahhh I thought it was the other way around (not that my post was directed specifically at you). Yes I agree, though I can absolutely see why they did it. One hopes that by doing so and getting everyone back on board, they've opened the next two movies up for something new.

[Red Beret]

My main issue was really just with 7 being so similar to the OT. Rogue One wasn't a great movie for me but it was a decent watch and I didn't feel cheated like I did with 7.

I agree with the rest of your post though, fwiw.

I didn't feel cheated with 7, but as I said, I did hold it to a higher standard than Rogue One, a standard it failed to meet.  Rogue One surpassed my expectations; maybe because it was just a simpler movie that had less to do.

I feel there are many people unwilling to give Rogue One credit for the things it did right, and the risks it took.  They prefer to nitpick and use the risks as a stick to beat it with. 

For example, I felt Plinkett was rather savage in his treatment of Rogue One.  I felt he was unnecessarily harsh with TFA, but Rogue One he was even worse.  I couldn't even finish watching the review.  Seemed more anti-Disney with him more than anything else.

How many of the movies Star Wars lifted from are as popular as Star Wars? When you lift from lesser known works and make a magpie of a movie it's a lot less obvious than when you remake a Star Wars movie almost scene for scene in a Star Wars sequel.

As to your second point about switching off, I've said from the beginning that's a good thing. Far better to enjoy a movie than the alternative. Rob is arguing that not enjoying these new Star Wars movies is an invalid opinion because people are over analyzing them and being critical. That's a ridiculous position to take.

Stealing is still stealing, regardless of whether you do a better job with the art of somebody else simply by virtue of having more money and technology at your disposal.  And personally I don't think it's less obvious at all. 

Dogfights and Dambusting and Samurai Warriors and wizard powers and evil fortresses - as somebody immersed in a history of war movies, SF and fantasy, all these tropes stand out like a sore thumb to me.  But for some reason I can enjoy what other people can't, even though I'm a sophisticated, 21st century filmgoer.

I agree it's wrong to try and invalidate somebody else's opinion, but it is also fair to say when you personally think criticism is OTT or unjustified, or that you think people are reading too much into a film or setting an impossible bar for it.

For me, Rogue One is the best SW film since the OT.  But I will be extremely annoyed if Episodes VIII and IX don't surpass it.

[classycarra]

Ahhh I thought it was the other way around (not that my post was directed specifically at you). Yes I agree, though I can absolutely see why they did it. One hopes that by doing so and getting everyone back on board, they've opened the next two movies up for something new.

that's gamblers logic we all said the same after ep 7, when they had the first non-trilogy opportunity, and look what they came up with.

speaking only for myself, i'm going to limit my expectations on the future films being creative/good in order to avoid the disappointment i felt with this film

[Red Beret]

that's gamblers logic we all said the same after ep 7, when they had the first non-trilogy opportunity, and look what they came up with.

speaking only for myself, i'm going to limit my expectations on the future films being creative/good in order to avoid the disappointment i felt with this film

Still think Rogue One might have been better coming first.  Getting everybody back into the universe with the classic ships and battles; seeing some familiar faces and kind of tying up the loose threads of the prequels and OT before then moving on to tell a new story with new characters.  A low risk, simple film with a straightforward plot and disposable characters in a stand alone film.  Then we could have moved forward 30 years to find out where we stood and how things panned out.

I think they were too eager/desperate to get the new trilogy off the ground.  I'm hoping they fix these mistakes in the next two films.

[Brian Blessed]

that's gamblers logic we all said the same after ep 7, when they had the first non-trilogy opportunity, and look what they came up with.

speaking only for myself, i'm going to limit my expectations on the future films being creative/good in order to avoid the disappointment i felt with this film

Rogue One was filmed largely before TFA came out and was the first stand alone. Caution makes sense. It's already been said 8 is nothing like any other SW film, but we shall see.

The most likely to be predictable is the Han Solo film, because you can have a safe guess onabiut ten plot points.

[Rob Dylan]

Probably around the time "blindly thinking everything you see is good because it's got loud noises and bright colours" stopped becoming an important prerequisite for enjoying anything.

Probably around your fourth birthday.

Thanks for proving my earlier point about being extremely patronising. Well done.

Yeah I remember the good old days when we were kids, and we used to sit around and ‘think critically’ about Star Wars. Fun times.

Rob is arguing that not enjoying these new Star Wars movies is an invalid opinion because people are over analyzing them and being critical. That's a ridiculous position to take.

No, you're putting words in my mouth again. If I wanted to argue that, then that's what I would have said. I'm saying it's a flawed opinion - on the assumption that you think the original trilogy is the benchmark for SW films - if you don't hold the original films to the same standards as the new ones - if you criticise the new films for things that the OT was also guilty of, and that all films of this type are guilty of. It's not just a case of 'ignoring the bad stuff' - it's recognising when the good stuff significantly outweighs the bad stuff, and results in an enjoyable film - just as we do with the OT.

I think people are forgetting just how bad the prequels were. Now of course we should expect more of these films than just being 'better than the prequels', as that's a pretty low bar to set. But until TFA came out, we'd only had 6 Star Wars films - 3 of them were great, 3 of them were poor. I would think the fact that in terms of story, characters, acting, dialogue, humour, visuals and design, these new films are much closer to the 'great' SW films than the 'poor' ones, would be a positive thing. Now you might not think they're as good, you might be disappointed with them, but I think they should be given credit for getting much closer to the spirit of Star Wars than Lucas himself managed with the prequels.

But instead we have this exaggerated reaction (from some people) where just because it does not meet their specific expectations or requirements, it's 'poor' or 'terrible'. For instance, instead of Rey just being a character you didn't particuarly like, she becomes a 'terrible' character - if you want truly terrible characters, watch the prequels. And the filmakers are not even given any credit for the many things they've done really well. So for example, even if you weren't impressed by the story or characters of R1, the design, cinematography and visual effects were superb, and the city of Jedha and the final battle were both spectacular. The talent and attention to detail that has gone into these films is superb, from the original concept art through to the final visual effects. But they get no credit for any of this. It's a very cynical, entitled attitude that just takes all that for granted and writes the whole film off because it wasn't perfect, or it wasn't 'original' enough. And it just sucks all the joy out of what is supposed to be a positive experience.

Anyway this has all become far too serious, so I'll just post this again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E

[Something Worse]

Thanks for proving my earlier point about being extremely patronising. Well done.

Yeah I remember the good old days when we were kids, and we used to sit around and ‘think critically’ about Star Wars. Fun times.

I'm replying to your weird arguments with the amount of respect they deserve. When I was a kid I watched Batman Forever like 20 times. Does that automatically give all Batman media a pass? No. You grow up. You mature. You view things differently. I've seen the OT a ton. It holds up. I've seen 7 three times. It doesn't hold up at all and gets worse each time. If you think 4/5/6 are better than 7 I agree. If you think 7 is just as good but everyone prefers the OT more because they were kids when they saw it, that's ridiculous.

No, you're putting words in my mouth again. If I wanted to argue that, then that's what I would have said. I'm saying it's a flawed opinion - on the assumption that you think the original trilogy is the benchmark for SW films - if you don't hold the original films to the same standards as the new ones - if you criticise the new films for things that the OT was also guilty of, and that all films of this type are guilty of. It's not just a case of 'ignoring the bad stuff' - it's recognising when the good stuff significantly outweighs the bad stuff, and results in an enjoyable film - just as we do with the OT.

It's an opinion, how can it be flawed? 7 was bad because it rehashed 4, had a terrible lead character and an even worse bad guy. The good doesn't outweigh the bad, or there wouldn't be a fairly sizable chunk of people saying 7 is a bad movie. You, Rob Dylan, think the good outweighs the bad. That's fine. It's your opinion. It doesn't make everyone else wrong because we ask a little more from our movies than you do.

I think people are forgetting just how bad the prequels were. Now of course we should expect more of these films than just being 'better than the prequels', as that's a pretty low bar to set. But until TFA came out, we'd only had 6 Star Wars films - 3 of them were great, 3 of them were poor. I would think the fact that in terms of story, characters, acting, dialogue, humour, visuals and design, these new films are much closer to the 'great' SW films than the 'poor' ones, would be a positive thing. Now you might not think they're as good, you might be disappointed with them, but I think they should be given credit for getting much closer to the spirit of Star Wars than Lucas himself managed with the prequels.

It's a bad movie. I'm not giving them credit for being less bad than the prequels, or for having nice CGI. That's weak.

But instead we have this exaggerated reaction (from some people) where just because it does not meet their specific expectations or requirements, it's 'poor' or 'terrible'. For instance, instead of Rey just being a character you didn't particuarly like, she becomes a 'terrible' character - if you want truly terrible characters, watch the prequels. And the filmakers are not even given any credit for the many things they've done really well. So for example, even if you weren't impressed by the story or characters of R1, the design, cinematography and visual effects were superb, and the city of Jedha and the final battle were both spectacular. The talent and attention to detail that has gone into these films is superb, from the original concept art through to the final visual effects. But they get no credit for any of this. It's a very cynical, entitled attitude that just takes all that for granted and writes the whole film off because it wasn't perfect, or it wasn't 'original' enough. And it just sucks all the joy out of what is supposed to be a positive experience.

What is this weird obsession with credit? There were some good things. Vader's bit in R1. The space battle in R1. Donnie Yen in R1. Harrison Ford showing up for 7. I liked Finn, despite everything wrong with his character. There were a lot of bad things, and making a movie that is basically "MEMBER THE MILLENNIUM FALCON? MEMBER THE DEATH STAR? OO I MEMBER" is not enough to make it a good movie. You seem to think there is only one way to view a Star Wars movie, and that's through the eyes of a child. Kudos for you if it works, because you're enjoying more movies than I am. But you don't speak for everybody and you can't dictate whether or not someone enjoys a movie because they aren't watching it the way you demand they do.

Which goes back to my original point:

Or...

people didn't like it for various reasons including how derivative it was? Not everything is some shady agenda you know!

[Rob Dylan]

I'm replying to your weird arguments with the amount of respect they deserve. When I was a kid I watched Batman Forever like 20 times. Does that automatically give all Batman media a pass? No. You grow up. You mature. You view things differently. I've seen the OT a ton. It holds up. I've seen 7 three times. It doesn't hold up at all and gets worse each time. If you think 4/5/6 are better than 7 I agree. If you think 7 is just as good but everyone prefers the OT more because they were kids when they saw it, that's ridiculous.

It's an opinion, how can it be flawed? 7 was bad because it rehashed 4, had a terrible lead character and an even worse bad guy. The good doesn't outweigh the bad, or there wouldn't be a fairly sizable chunk of people saying 7 is a bad movie. You, Rob Dylan, think the good outweighs the bad. That's fine. It's your opinion. It doesn't make everyone else wrong because we ask a little more from our movies than you do.

It's a bad movie. I'm not giving them credit for being less bad than the prequels, or for having nice CGI. That's weak.

What is this weird obsession with credit? There were some good things. Vader's bit in R1. The space battle in R1. Donnie Yen in R1. Harrison Ford showing up for 7. I liked Finn, despite everything wrong with his character. There were a lot of bad things, and making a movie that is basically "MEMBER THE MILLENNIUM FALCON? MEMBER THE DEATH STAR? OO I MEMBER" is not enough to make it a good movie. You seem to think there is only one way to view a Star Wars movie, and that's through the eyes of a child. Kudos for you if it works, because you're enjoying more movies than I am. But you don't speak for everybody and you can't dictate whether or not someone enjoys a movie because they aren't watching it the way you demand they do.

Which goes back to my original point:

I'm not going to bother replying to all of this, it's a waste of time because yet again you're not actually arguing against what I'm saying, you're making up your own version and arguing against that. It's simplistic and childish.

But I will say a couple of things: firstly, of course an opinion can be flawed! Some people don't believe in evolution, it's 'just their opinion'. Donald Drumpf supporters believe many strange things, it's 'just their opinion'.
 
Secondly, I'm not demanding anything or saying I speak for everyone. I've tried to have a discussion but you just end up saying 'it's my opinion', which is not an argument, and then just accuse me of thinking like a child and not having the ability to think critically like you do. You are incredibly arrogant - with no reason to be - and just as patronising. I'm just off to look up what 'critical thinking' is, as I'm clearly not on the same intellectual level as you.

[Something Worse]

Secondly, I'm not demanding anything or saying I speak for everyone. I've tried to have a discussion but you just end up saying 'it's my opinion', which is not an argument, and then just accuse me of thinking like a child and not having the ability to think critically like you do.

I'm accusing you of choosing not to think critically about a movie and condescending others for doing so. For example:

Nowadays people always seem to be looking for a 'perfect' film where you can't criticise any particular element of it - but no such film exists. And when we love a film it's not because we can clinically analyse it and say that it has no flaws...we love it because of how it makes us feel and what it does well, despite any flaws it may have. It's an emotional response not an analytical one. Also, people somehow seem to expect these films to make them feel like they did when they were kids but they never will...when we were kids we didn't cynically dissect and analyse every aspect of it, we just enjoyed the spectacle in front of us.

Honestly, if you saw the OT for the first time now, would you think it was 'special'?  These films are not going to make you feel like you did when you were a kid, because you're not a kid anymore.

Since when was 'thinking critically' an important prerequisite for enjoying Star Wars?

Yeah I remember the good old days when we were kids, and we used to sit around and ‘think critically’ about Star Wars. Fun times.

Once again reminding you that I don't care how you watch a movie, but I don't expect you to act high and mighty about how I and others view it.

[Rob Dylan]

I'm accusing you of choosing not to think critically about a movie and condescending others for doing so. For example:

Once again reminding you that I don't care how you watch a movie, but I don't expect you to act high and mighty about how I and others view it.

The irony of you criticising someone for being 'condescending' and 'high and mighty'! It was you that originally said I was easily pleased and incapable of thinking critically, and then went one further and suggested I had the mentality of a four year old. Your lack of self-awareness is amazing.

[Party Phil]

[WillG.LFC]

Urgh hated that warp into the planet from episode 7. So lazy, be using it for everything now

[Alan_X]

Your attempt at a parallel would be closer if the Americans were letting off Nukes.

And the Rebels were randomly murdering civilians who didn't believe in the force or the wrong kind of the force.

The Star Wars story of a small band fighting back against overwhelming odds is thousands of years old. 300 Spartans, Henry V and his 'Happy few, his Band of Brothers', Band of Brothers at Bastogne, the Seven Samurai, The Charge of the Light Brigade, The Alamo and so on and so on.

Star Wars is a useful metaphor that reminds us that the people we're fighting probably believe their cause is justified but that doesn't make Rogue One 'about' Hezbollah or ISIS.

I'd also question the video's suggestion that ISIS (in particular) are fighting for small policy differences that could be sorted out with a chat.

[CHOPPER]

Just fuckin stop it the lot of ye, its star wars for fucks sake, not Mein Kampf.

[oojason]

Saw it again at the cinema with the nieces - thinks it's my 4th time watching it at the cinema overall - I still come out with a smile having enjoyed watching a decent and enjoyable Star Wars film...

The Prequels seem such a long time ago now - like a bad dream or distant memory

[KiNki]

Battlefront VR : Rogue One mission game footage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea8GHjlc_0M

not really into the whole VR thing - though that may have to change after watching that

It's awesome but you need a full game.