Author Topic: FSG discussion thread  (Read 745612 times)

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #320 on: October 26, 2022, 01:52:37 pm »
I agree that the perceived losers from FFP have profited and are often indirect winners and now very quiet on he subject. However FFP and “within our means” were often quoted as constraints.  Without FFP, our spend can increase quite a bit sustainably and still allow growth of overall value for the owners.

I agree with you mate.

The thing is we are nowhere near getting close to FFP limits because infrastructure costs and the Academy costs aren't included. Then you can take out one-off costs from COVID. We could spend hundreds of millions in the next window as Chelsea have done and still not come close to breaching FFP.

As a club we need to push our boundaries as far as we can and then as you say complain like fuck about other teams breaching FFP.
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Offline Asam

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #321 on: October 26, 2022, 01:54:21 pm »
Just when you think Al completely has the upper hand, an FSG thread mainly negative towards the owners, he throws in a curveball like 'FSG are just ad bad as the state owners' :D

At least for all of his flaws (and there are many) is attempting to contribute something to the discussion rather than sitting there sniping at others or making a dim witted and entirely predictable attempt to take their words out of context  :wave

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #322 on: October 26, 2022, 01:56:55 pm »
There’s literally one club in the league who have sustained a £100 million net spend per season, and it’s Abu Dhabi.

Really ?

Last four seasons.



That's four clubs with a Net spend of between £76m and £125m.
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Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #323 on: October 26, 2022, 01:58:36 pm »
Combined for summer and winter. Don't think 100m is unreasonable for #4 ranked club based on valuations.

We really don't need to spend that much. More than we do now but not that much.
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Offline Asam

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #324 on: October 26, 2022, 01:59:28 pm »
I agree with you mate.

The thing is we are nowhere near getting close to FFP limits because infrastructure costs and the Academy costs aren't included. Then you can take out one-off costs from COVID. We could spend hundreds of millions in the next window as Chelsea have done and still not come close to breaching FFP.

As a club we need to push our boundaries as far as we can and then as you say complain like fuck about other teams breaching FFP.

We could but we won't since the club's revenues can't stretch that far, everyone else is either using state funding, dodgy sponsorships, a sugar daddy or debt to increase their spending whereas FSG want all of the investment to come via the club's coffers, which unfortunately won't work over the long term because we don't have any margin for error, the other teams can keep on signing players at the same level each window whereas we end up renewing contracts and keeping our failures like Oxlade and Keita because we don't want to write them off







Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #325 on: October 26, 2022, 02:00:36 pm »
We could but we won't since the club's revenues can't stretch that far, everyone else is either using state funding, dodgy sponsorships, a sugar daddy or debt to increase their spending whereas FSG want all of the investment to come via the club's coffers, which unfortunately won't work over the long term because we don't have any margin for error, the other teams can keep on signing players at the same level each window whereas we end up renewing contracts and keeping our failures like Oxlade and Keita because we don't want to write them off

Klopp's loyalty and FSG sell to buy policy is counter productive sometimes.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #326 on: October 26, 2022, 02:01:55 pm »
Just to be clear, because I wouldn’t want to be accused of twisting Al’s words with a dim witted riposte, but what’s happened here is I’ve said ‘only Man City have sustained a £100 million net spend’ and Al has mockingly responded with a table…showing Man City are the only ones with a net spend average of over £100 million (and in HIS chosen timeframe no less)

Thank you very much mate :)

For the hard of thinking amongst us  :D :D

That is United who has had a Net spend in excess of £100m, not City.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 02:09:00 pm by Al 666 »
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Offline Samie

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #327 on: October 26, 2022, 02:02:30 pm »
It's great seeing Al in his natural habitat.

Go on mate.  ;D

Offline El Lobo

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #328 on: October 26, 2022, 02:02:48 pm »
For the hard of think amongst us  :D :D

That is United who has had a Net spend in excess of £100m, not City.

If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #329 on: October 26, 2022, 02:03:55 pm »
We really don't need to spend that much. More than we do now but not that much.

This, in a nutshell, is the huge frustration of the last 4 years

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #330 on: October 26, 2022, 02:04:04 pm »
Really ?

Last four seasons.



That's four clubs with a Net spend of between £76m and £125m.

What that table does show despite being out of the top 4 Arsenal and Spurs have invested. As of this season they are ahead of us, because we haven't been proactive.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #331 on: October 26, 2022, 02:06:26 pm »
We really don't need to spend that much. More than we do now but not that much.

Precisely. I don't think anyone arguing the toss here wants fsg to go full man city and spent £50m on fullbacks every summer. Simply adding a couple more to the squad earlier would mean we aren't now staring in the face of a substantial rebuild.

Sign someone summer 2019.
Sign more than one person summer 2021, failing that more than one peak years player summer 2022.
And this doesn't look the way it does right now.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #332 on: October 26, 2022, 02:07:42 pm »
We could but we won't since the club's revenues can't stretch that far, everyone else is either using state funding, dodgy sponsorships, a sugar daddy or debt to increase their spending whereas FSG want all of the investment to come via the club's coffers, which unfortunately won't work over the long term because we don't have any margin for error, the other teams can keep on signing players at the same level each window whereas we end up renewing contracts and keeping our failures like Oxlade and Keita because we don't want to write them off

The club revenues clearly can stretch that far. The issue is that £240m-£250m of club reveunes has gone on the Main Stand, Training Ground and ARE. Something that for me FSG should be paying for.

The brutal reality is that instead of buying two new stands and a training ground they have purchased the Penguins.
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Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #333 on: October 26, 2022, 02:12:31 pm »
From their POV, everything they've done so far in the last 5 years has paid off. So why change anything now?

We're looking at it as fans. They're looking at it as their investment. They haven't put in any of their money and the value of the club is 10 times more now than when they bought it. They didn't spend enough in 2019 and we won the league, didn't spend enough in 2020 and we still finished 3rd, didn't spend enough in 2021 and we were 15 mins away from a domestic treble and reached another CL final.

IF we do end up outside the Top 4 this season, they'll just take it as one failed season out of eight since Klopp's been here. If your methods work 7 times out of 8, would you really change it?
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Offline Kundale

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #334 on: October 26, 2022, 02:16:41 pm »
The club revenues clearly can stretch that far. The issue is that £240m-£250m of club reveunes has gone on the Main Stand, Training Ground and ARE. Something that for me FSG should be paying for.

The brutal reality is that instead of buying two new stands and a training ground they have purchased the Penguins.

But does that not make perfect sense for the business people? They are not football fans.

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #335 on: October 26, 2022, 02:18:04 pm »
Precisely. I don't think anyone arguing the toss here wants fsg to go full man city and spent £50m on fullbacks every summer. Simply adding a couple more to the squad earlier would mean we aren't now staring in the face of a substantial rebuild.

Sign someone summer 2019.
Sign more than one person summer 2021, failing that more than one peak years player summer 2022.
And this doesn't look the way it does right now.

Exactly no one should be asking for Utd/City level spending. Just not being quite as stingey as they are. I still think covid scared the shit out of them and now they're even more carful. But considering how much they have/will make on us I think we deserve a bit more investment than they are currently giving. No one should be asking for £100m players but maybe one or two more good players than we're currently getting is a fair ask. 
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #336 on: October 26, 2022, 02:19:39 pm »
What that table does show despite being out of the top 4 Arsenal and Spurs have invested. As of this season they are ahead of us, because we haven't been proactive.

I dont think I'm wrong in suggesting that its cheaper to stay at the top than it is to get there. So really not sure its particularly relevant to bemoan us not spending as much as teams trying to catch us. If Arsenal do stay in the top four, even top two, I'd be very confident that their net spend would drop pretty significantly as they try to keep those players. Which is why net spend alone really isn't a great demonstrator of much.

Plus those are all teams turning players over constantly....because the ones they've signed are shite. Arsenal and United both have about £100 million 'worth' of players out on loan (not to get first team football but because no-one wanted to spend money on them). Spurs probably have even more with the likes of Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso. We definitely could/should have spent more but soundbites like 'our net spend is lower than Sheffield United' doesnt really help as its pretty irrelevant. The most successful club in world football over the last 5/6 years have had a tiny net spend over the same period (if not made a profit).
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #337 on: October 26, 2022, 02:22:12 pm »
I dont think I'm wrong in suggesting that its cheaper to stay at the top than it is to get there. So really not sure its particularly relevant to bemoan us not spending as much as teams trying to catch us. If Arsenal do stay in the top four, even top two, I'd be very confident that their net spend would drop pretty significantly as they try to keep those players. Which is why net spend alone really isn't a great demonstrator of much.

Plus those are all teams turning players over constantly....because the ones they've signed are shite. Arsenal and United both have about £100 million 'worth' of players out on loan (not to get first team football but because no-one wanted to spend money on them). Spurs probably have even more with the likes of Ndombele, Reguilon, Lo Celso. We definitely could/should have spent more but soundbites like 'our net spend is lower than Sheffield United' doesnt really help as its pretty irrelevant. The most successful club in world football over the last 5/6 years have had a tiny net spend over the same period (if not made a profit).

It's a fair point. We have probably spent more retaining players. I think the main bit is the whole CB issue the other year in January and this summer with a midfielder. They didn't do enough on both occassions. Sure no doubts there's reasons but the fact remains Klopp doesn't make those comments in the summer if he was getting fully backed.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #338 on: October 26, 2022, 02:22:55 pm »
We really don't need to spend that much. More than we do now but not that much.

The crazy thing is that we have Klopp and a supposedly state-of-the-art recruitment team. Surely giving Klopp more money would just generate more money.

Look at how much money City have generated this season from squad players £125m for Sterling, Jesus and Zinchenko. So their money back on Sterling whose contract was running out and big profits on Jesus and Zinchenko.

There has been plenty of talk about Ox and Keita and us not being allowed mistakes. Well the answer is simple you recruit, improve the level of the squad and then sell the players who drop down the pecking order. If we had improved the level of the midfield two or three years ago then the likes of Ox and Keita would have either kicked on or wanted to move on.
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Offline Sharado

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #339 on: October 26, 2022, 02:26:33 pm »
Surely giving Klopp more money would just generate more money.


I generally agree with this too but look at the academy players, many of whom have gone on to do very little, that we've sold for big money. If you're at the top of the league people seem to be willing to play more for the dross in your squad on the basis you're getting someone well trained/in the enrivonment of 'winners' or something. United were absolute masters at this at their peak.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #340 on: October 26, 2022, 02:26:43 pm »
Could you provide a link for the Red Sox payroll because every site I have seen has them at 6th or 7th.

I was looking at FanGraphs:  https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/breakdowns/payroll

It's hard to get any firm figures, but this MLB Trade Rumors article also seems to agree that Red Sox were in 5th place (just above the Padres) but they have their spend at around $235m.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/09/mets-dodgers-luxury-tax-yankees-red-sox-phillies-padres.html

There is also a Twitter account which tracks the Red Sox payroll and they have their final spend at $237m.

I think you number was opening day (guaranteed) payroll which doesn't include arbitration and pre-arbitration numbers.

Offline clinical

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #341 on: October 26, 2022, 02:26:48 pm »
The crazy thing is that we have Klopp and a supposedly state-of-the-art recruitment team. Surely giving Klopp more money would just generate more money.

Look at how much money City have generated this season from squad players £125m for Sterling, Jesus and Zinchenko. So their money back on Sterling whose contract was running out and big profits on Jesus and Zinchenko.

There has been plenty of talk about Ox and Keita and us not being allowed mistakes. Well the answer is simple you recruit, improve the level of the squad and then sell the players who drop down the pecking order. If we had improved the level of the midfield two or three years ago then the likes of Ox and Keita would have either kicked on or wanted to move on.

I said this during covid, buy in the dips. Even if they don't work out you've got a good chance of making most of that back when the market fully recovers. I feel every one including me gets bit dramatic after a loss. But you look at it, they aren't terrible owners. But they should do a bit more than they are doing. I reckon most deep down would agree with that. Klopp isn't being fully backed in certain situations and that's simply not good enough, when you're making £600m a year revenue.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #342 on: October 26, 2022, 02:48:08 pm »
Another myth is that our transfer funds have gone on new contracts for existing players. During the last accounting period we have details for 20/21 we renewed the contracts of 12 players that included Virgil van Dijk, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Fabinho. We also added Thiago and Jota.

People would have you belive that those contracts resulted in the wage bill going up which hampered our activity in the transfer market.

Nothing could be further from the truth. From our accounts. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00035668/filing-history page 25.


Our wage bill actually fell by £11m.





Whilst our turnover remained pretty static.




So our wages to turnover actually dropped.




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Offline JasonF

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #343 on: October 26, 2022, 02:55:53 pm »
Another myth is that our transfer funds have gone on new contracts for existing players. During the last accounting period we have details for 20/21 we renewed the contracts of 12 players that included Virgil van Dijk, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Fabinho. We also added Thiago and Jota.

People would have you belive that those contracts resulted in the wage bill going up which hampered our activity in the transfer market.

Nothing could be further from the truth. From our accounts. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00035668/filing-history page 25.


Our wage bill actually fell by £11m.





Whilst our turnover remained pretty static.




So our wages to turnover actually dropped.

It doesn't sound like that includes signing on fees and agent fees from the description? Which given the players renewed would be a significant amount I imagine.

Offline redmark

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #344 on: October 26, 2022, 02:59:50 pm »
What that table does show despite being out of the top 4 Arsenal and Spurs have invested. As of this season they are ahead of us, because we haven't been proactive.
Arsenal are gambling. It's an interesting gamble and has accelerated since Kroenke took sole ownership in 2018. Their net spend is the headline, but wages are at an unsustainable % of revenue - the hole in their accounts being revenue, because they haven't had CL football in six years.

Spurs are investing from a low base; their wage bill is much, much lower than any other top six side, and has been for years. Taking into account games played, they're off the pace of Arsenal/City, in a pack with Newcastle, Chelsea, United and (almost) us. And we've been shit.

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Offline redmark

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #345 on: October 26, 2022, 03:04:27 pm »
It doesn't sound like that includes signing on fees and agent fees from the description? Which given the players renewed would be a significant amount I imagine.
Basic wages will have increased compared to 18/19 and 19/20, which included large bonus payments.

Wages as % of revenue have gone from 58% in 17/18 and 18/19, to 66.5% 19/20 and 64.5% 20/21.
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Offline grenny158

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #346 on: October 26, 2022, 03:06:42 pm »
Exactly no one should be asking for Utd/City level spending. Just not being quite as stingey as they are. I still think covid scared the shit out of them and now they're even more carful. But considering how much they have/will make on us I think we deserve a bit more investment than they are currently giving. No one should be asking for £100m players but maybe one or two more good players than we're currently getting is a fair ask.

I genuinely believe that two 50m midfielders in the January window is the minimum investment required right now. Not unrealistic imo, considering the value of the club and how little net spend we have had in recent windows.

I would also prefer to get in two quality mids for that price, rather then 1 overpriced Bellingham, no matter how high his potential ceiling is. There is no shortage of quality players out there. If Klopp is only allowed to limp through this season from January onwards by FSG, then questions about them as owners HAVE to be asked (I know questions have already been asked by many). Nothing could be more obvious at this point in time then our absolute need to strengthen our midfield- unless, of course, you only have an intimate knowledge of baseball and other US sports despite having owned a top football side for over a decade.

The other bit of nous required in this respect is from Jurgen. None of this "We will wait for Bellingham in the summer, no-one else will do". Barella for 60m and Bennacer for 40m and we are good to go.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #347 on: October 26, 2022, 03:11:12 pm »
Arsenal are gambling. It's an interesting gamble and has accelerated since Kroenke took sole ownership in 2018. Their net spend is the headline, but wages are at an unsustainable % of revenue - the hole in their accounts being revenue, because they haven't had CL football in six years.

Spurs are investing from a low base; their wage bill is much, much lower than any other top six side, and has been for years. Taking into account games played, they're off the pace of Arsenal/City, in a pack with Newcastle, Chelsea, United and (almost) us. And we've been shit.

They are gambling, as many other non oil clubs do, but as you say their wages are at 238m and 72% of turnover and while turnover post covid will be higher, their wages will be too, along with the extra cost of last summers transfers. If they keep the core of this squad together they will be knocking on Arteta's door asking for more money too.

Offline redmark

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #348 on: October 26, 2022, 03:16:11 pm »
The other bit of nous required in this respect is from Jurgen. None of this "We will wait for Bellingham in the summer, no-one else will do". Barella for 60m and Bennacer for 40m and we are good to go.
If we buy a couple of 25/26 year old players at their peak market value and ready to sign their career peak contract, we'll be having the same discussion again pretty soon. A mistake we made last time: assembling a squad all closely grouped in age and then allowing them all to age at the club. I'll be mildly irritated if our next midfield signing is within six months of his 24th birthday.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #349 on: October 26, 2022, 03:17:56 pm »
It doesn't sound like that includes signing on fees and agent fees from the description? Which given the players renewed would be a significant amount I imagine.

We pay around £20m per season in agent fees but that also includes fees for selling players. For instance Dortmund a selling Club pays a lot in agents fees.

As for signing on fees. My understanding is that generally they are amortised over the length of the contract and are part of the wage bill. The reasoning is that if a player puts in a transfer request they lose the balance of the signing on fee due to them.
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Offline nico 8

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #350 on: October 26, 2022, 03:20:24 pm »
Why would FSG fight for FFP when they have profited massively from it being circumvented?

They received £50m from Chelsea for Torres, £49m from City for Sterling and then the £142m for Coutinho was basically a chunk of what PSG paid Barca for Neymar.

Not sure I understand your point. Isn't it all relative and the market is becoming totally inflated thanks to the said clubs. Yes- we got £50 for Torres but overpaid £35 for Andy Carroll. By all accounts he was not worth that amount. Same applies for Coutinho. The inflated market limits the number of clubs that can compete and those that can compete on a limited scale like ourselves need to get it right unlike the sportswashers who can drop £50m on Mendy and not feel the hurt. I would therefore disagree that FSG welcome the inflated market. If anything they would welcome a regulated market in terms of a salary cap but with no limitation on revenue or income generation. That would be their aim as that would leave the surplus cash in the company for whatever they as owners deem fit.
I am no FSG apologist but am a realist to understand that the owners will not dip into their own pockets (where do you draw the line ? Will the expectation be to spend £200 every season?? Theirs isn't a pet project throwing cash around like Roman). They simply do not operate that way and I am happy with the approach that the business must be self sustainable. Inasmuch it is argued that they would satisfied with a top 4 finish, I have no doubt that their model requires it to be the bare minimum and that competing and winning the highest honours directly impacts on the income stream. Value is meaningless until such time as they wish to sell.

In regard to matters on the field- Yes, the club botched up in not getting a new midfielder but we simply do not know the reasons behind it and I am not going to fret about something not in my control nor within my domain or knowledge. Having said that, our performance is down to several factors (as set out by Prof in an earlier post) with the main one being attributable to the horrific injury list. You simply cannot legislate for that. Almost all clubs would suffer in the way we have.
You have repeatedly shown your disdain for FSG and I can only assume it is on the basis that they have not spent any of their own money in investing in players each season.  This season alone we have invested in 3 young players who we would have hoped to ease in over time but with the growing injury list they are starting. It may not have been in the range of our clubs but read in conjunction with our high wages, it was nevertheless a decent chunk. Be prepared for the spending ability/ capability gap to widen and we can only hope that we get it right with the right players , coach with a pinch of luck in regard to injuries and referee decisions.
Ultimately why fret over the spend - rather enjoy the ride- both ups and downs. If FSG step out of line in regard to ther matters, our fanbase and more importantly, the local lads know how and when to step in.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #351 on: October 26, 2022, 03:23:16 pm »
I genuinely believe that two 50m midfielders in the January window is the minimum investment required right now. Not unrealistic imo, considering the value of the club and how little net spend we have had in recent windows.

I would also prefer to get in two quality mids for that price, rather then 1 overpriced Bellingham, no matter how high his potential ceiling is. There is no shortage of quality players out there. If Klopp is only allowed to limp through this season from January onwards by FSG, then questions about them as owners HAVE to be asked (I know questions have already been asked by many). Nothing could be more obvious at this point in time then our absolute need to strengthen our midfield- unless, of course, you only have an intimate knowledge of baseball and other US sports despite having owned a top football side for over a decade.

The other bit of nous required in this respect is from Jurgen. None of this "We will wait for Bellingham in the summer, no-one else will do". Barella for 60m and Bennacer for 40m and we are good to go.

:D

Not just you, but it really is laughable how many people just put numbers out there with not much to back it up. I mean just to start with...Barella would cover most of that £100 million. But two '£50 million midfielders'? What on earth does a £50 million midfielder look like? Half as good as Grealish? Ndombele? Fred? Partey? Kalvin Phillips? Simultaneously £50 million sometimes doesnt get you much, or could get you two or three really good midfielders. We could probably snaffle Laimer and Auoar in January for £15 million between them, for example.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #352 on: October 26, 2022, 03:29:26 pm »
:D

Not just you, but it really is laughable how many people just put numbers out there with not much to back it up. I mean just to start with...Barella would cover most of that £100 million. But two '£50 million midfielders'? What on earth does a £50 million midfielder look like? Half as good as Grealish? Ndombele? Fred? Partey? Kalvin Phillips? Simultaneously £50 million sometimes doesnt get you much, or could get you two or three really good midfielders. We could probably snaffle Laimer and Auoar in January for £15 million between them, for example.

I've definitely been guilty of this. I think the logic is Bellingham =£100m, and we need  at least two midfielders ....so £50m each.

What does any of this mean? Absolutely nothing. I'm just desperate to sign multiple midfielders so logic has long since left the building.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline newterp

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #353 on: October 26, 2022, 03:29:26 pm »
So many new points being raised in this thread.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #354 on: October 26, 2022, 03:31:50 pm »
Not sure I understand your point. Isn't it all relative and the market is becoming totally inflated thanks to the said clubs. Yes- we got £50 for Torres but overpaid £35 for Andy Carroll. By all accounts he was not worth that amount. Same applies for Coutinho. The inflated market limits the number of clubs that can compete and those that can compete on a limited scale like ourselves need to get it right unlike the sportswashers who can drop £50m on Mendy and not feel the hurt. I would therefore disagree that FSG welcome the inflated market. If anything they would welcome a regulated market in terms of a salary cap but with no limitation on revenue or income generation. That would be their aim as that would leave the surplus cash in the company for whatever they as owners deem fit.
I am no FSG apologist but am a realist to understand that the owners will not dip into their own pockets (where do you draw the line ? Will the expectation be to spend £200 every season?? Theirs isn't a pet project throwing cash around like Roman). They simply do not operate that way and I am happy with the approach that the business must be self sustainable. Inasmuch it is argued that they would satisfied with a top 4 finish, I have no doubt that their model requires it to be the bare minimum and that competing and winning the highest honours directly impacts on the income stream. Value is meaningless until such time as they wish to sell.

In regard to matters on the field- Yes, the club botched up in not getting a new midfielder but we simply do not know the reasons behind it and I am not going to fret about something not in my control nor within my domain or knowledge. Having said that, our performance is down to several factors (as set out by Prof in an earlier post) with the main one being attributable to the horrific injury list. You simply cannot legislate for that. Almost all clubs would suffer in the way we have.
You have repeatedly shown your disdain for FSG and I can only assume it is on the basis that they have not spent any of their own money in investing in players each season.  This season alone we have invested in 3 young players who we would have hoped to ease in over time but with the growing injury list they are starting. It may not have been in the range of our clubs but read in conjunction with our high wages, it was nevertheless a decent chunk. Be prepared for the spending ability/ capability gap to widen and we can only hope that we get it right with the right players , coach with a pinch of luck in regard to injuries and referee decisions.
Ultimately why fret over the spend - rather enjoy the ride- both ups and downs. If FSG step out of line in regard to ther matters, our fanbase and more importantly, the local lads know how and when to step in.

The market being massively inflated has also massively inflated the value of the clubs though. Without the likes of Abramovich and Mansoor would we have seen ticket prices rocket, would we have seen TV revenues rocket, would we have seen commercial revenues rocket.

There is a reason why the Premier has massively outgrown the likes of La Liga, Serie A and the Bundesliga. It is down to the huge sums that have been poured into it by Nation states, Oligarch's and Hedge funds.
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Offline Passmaster Molby

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #355 on: October 26, 2022, 03:40:40 pm »
When we see these net spend tables, they relate to the transfer fees only. We never see how much is spent on players signing on fees or agents fees that are direct costs of a transfer. For balance they really should be included when accusing owners of not spending enough as transfer net spend doesn’t tell the full picture of how much these players cost.

Offline Asam

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #356 on: October 26, 2022, 03:41:19 pm »
The club revenues clearly can stretch that far. The issue is that £240m-£250m of club reveunes has gone on the Main Stand, Training Ground and ARE. Something that for me FSG should be paying for.

The brutal reality is that instead of buying two new stands and a training ground they have purchased the Penguins.

Well, the good news is we can't build anymore stuff unless FSG decides to buy a bunch of more land and build a fucking hotel or something :-)




Offline redmark

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #357 on: October 26, 2022, 03:47:41 pm »
The thing is we have a sell-to-buy policy. The majority of our transfer kitty comes from player sales. You look at our record incoming tranfer fees received and under FSG it has always dwarfed our record fee paid. Currently, it is £142m received and up to £85m spent. Given transfer inflation, our record fee received is around double what we have ever paid.

The success has been built on spending other people's money wisely backed up by the genius of Klopp. So the huge sums received either directly or indirectly from the oil clubs has been fundamental to our success. Since we stopped receiving money from the oil clubs directly or indirectly our spending has dried up.
The thing is, Al, these are distinct data points that you've tied together with a preconceived narrative. Which is fine, that's what humans do. It might even be correct. But it's just one of the possible narratives.

Clubs buy and sell players. Almost any club on earth could be accused of "the majority of our transfer kitty comes from player sales". It's churn. It's taking a portion of our revenue and deciding that that portion is allocated to that item of expenditure, like arguing that the NHS is paid for by NI, not PAYE. It doesn't matter. Player sales is quite a small proportion of our overall revenue.

Between 2017 and 2021, three of the big six spent, respectively, 85%, 85% and 87% of their total player expenses (i.e. minus sales) on wages, rather than net spend. The other three spent 78%, 70% and 75%. The latter three haven't won anything other than the transfer windows, and an FA Cup.

"Bloody penny pinching, they've made a profit selling Keegan and buying this Dalglish bloke. Why don't they invest and stick a million in for that Francis fella?".

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Offline Asam

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #358 on: October 26, 2022, 03:48:08 pm »
:D

Not just you, but it really is laughable how many people just put numbers out there with not much to back it up. I mean just to start with...Barella would cover most of that £100 million. But two '£50 million midfielders'? What on earth does a £50 million midfielder look like? Half as good as Grealish? Ndombele? Fred? Partey? Kalvin Phillips? Simultaneously £50 million sometimes doesnt get you much, or could get you two or three really good midfielders. We could probably snaffle Laimer and Auoar in January for £15 million between them, for example.

Great, another midfielder who just returned from a serious injury and someone who makes Joe Allen look like a giant



Offline grenny158

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #359 on: October 26, 2022, 03:49:15 pm »
If we buy a couple of 25/26 year old players at their peak market value and ready to sign their career peak contract, we'll be having the same discussion again pretty soon. A mistake we made last time: assembling a squad all closely grouped in age and then allowing them all to age at the club. I'll be mildly irritated if our next midfield signing is within six months of his 24th birthday.

I would be interested to know the average length of stay of top level footballers at any given club .. my guesstimate on that would be around the 5 year mark in general. If we assume that is close to being true, then I have no issues with signing players about to enter their peak. Our problem at our club is that we have allowed players to 'overstay their welcome' so to speak. Players who are not contributing at the required level (whether due to injury problems / extended periods of lack of form / losing key attributes like pace etc) should be sold and new players brought in.

If Keita / Ox / Millie / Phillips had been sold on at least one season ago but probably more, not only would we have made some money off their sale but we would - hopefully - have invested wisely in replacements (players about to enter their peak) and we would not be having this conversation. It has - unfortunately - been a blind spot at our club, and it is not only FSG who should have the finger pointed at them for that .. we know that Klopp himself has shown 'loyalty' or 'hope' that the players whose contribution has been questionable will contribute to the cause, and it just has not worked.