Topic: Re-branding of London overground routes; cultural or culture war?

[Scottymuser]

I rode the length of the Lioness today.

Naming the lines reduces the difference between the tube and overground trains - emphasising the integrated nature of the network. If you want to name them, they areas good a set of names as any.

I agree - it was ridiculous having 6 different overground lines all just known as the "Overground" with no difference in names - made it far harder to navigate, especially as you *did* have interchanges between them.  Giving them all names and colours will make it easier to navigate and make it feel less like the "poorer cousin" to the main underground lines (especially as the majority of the lines/stops on the overground appear to go through poorer/more run-down areas).

I have absolutely no issues with the names chosen - especially as the Underground lines have a lot of Royalist/Right Wing names (Victoria, Jubilee, Elizabeth Line, etc) - in fact, the fact it is triggering the Right Wing Gammons is reason to support it (you only have to go on the youtube comments for TalkTV, GBNews and the likes to witness some horrific).  Claiming things like "It was done as a deliberate racist insult to the English.", "I’m outraged by this, how dare that dictator try to rework British history", "Why can't the prime minister or government just sack Khan......disgusting , I'm surprised there's not a Palestine line". 

Also, I just put myself through the nearly 7 mins GBNews YT video on that matter - it seems like their main issue is naming one line the "Suffragette" instead of "Suffragists" (because in whomever the guy is words, "the suffragettes were violentm they bombed things, they smashed things") which is laughably silly - ignoring that nowadays we tend to (as his co-anchor mentioned) bandy the two together under one branch (he even mentioned his outrage of having Millicent Fawcett being used to advertise it).

[Lusty]

I agree - it was ridiculous having 6 different overground lines all just known as the "Overground" with no difference in names - made it far harder to navigate, especially as you *did* have interchanges between them.  Giving them all names and colours will make it easier to navigate and make it feel less like the "poorer cousin" to the main underground lines (especially as the majority of the lines/stops on the overground appear to go through poorer/more run-down areas).

I have absolutely no issues with the names chosen - especially as the Underground lines have a lot of Royalist/Right Wing names (Victoria, Jubilee, Elizabeth Line, etc) - in fact, the fact it is triggering the Right Wing Gammons is reason to support it (you only have to go on the youtube comments for TalkTV, GBNews and the likes to witness some horrific).  Claiming things like "It was done as a deliberate racist insult to the English.", "I’m outraged by this, how dare that dictator try to rework British history", "Why can't the prime minister or government just sack Khan......disgusting , I'm surprised there's not a Palestine line". 

Also, I just put myself through the nearly 7 mins GBNews YT video on that matter - it seems like their main issue is naming one line the "Suffragette" instead of "Suffragists" (because in whomever the guy is words, "the suffragettes were violentm they bombed things, they smashed things") which is laughably silly - ignoring that nowadays we tend to (as his co-anchor mentioned) bandy the two together under one branch (he even mentioned his outrage of having Millicent Fawcett being used to advertise it).

Slight aside, but why on earth would you do this to yourself?

[thaddeus]

I have absolutely no issues with the names chosen - especially as the Underground lines have a lot of Royalist/Right Wing names (Victoria, Jubilee, Elizabeth Line, etc) - in fact, the fact it is triggering the Right Wing Gammons is reason to support it (you only have to go on the youtube comments for TalkTV, GBNews and the likes to witness some horrific).  Claiming things like "It was done as a deliberate racist insult to the English.", "I’m outraged by this, how dare that dictator try to rework British history", "Why can't the prime minister or government just sack Khan......disgusting , I'm surprised there's not a Palestine line".

Whilst I agree that it makes for funny viewing that was my main issue with it, that we seem to have reduced ourselves to tit-for-tat point-scoring between "woke" and "anti-woke".  People shouldn't really get triggered by such things but anyone with a bit of forethought would have known that people would.  They've given GB News a lovely distraction from the chaos of the ruling government and a juicy red-meat stick to beat Sadiq Khan and, by extension, Labour with.

Just as the anti-EU brigade built their arguments on nonsense like straight bananas (rather than their real gripes about the EU raising environmental and employment standards - policies which nibbled into the profits of corporations) we now have this never-ending sideshow of culture wars.

I'm almost certainly reading too much into it so excuse my ranting.  It's a broader frustration that people shrug their shoulders when billions of Covid money is written off or their public services crumble around them but spit feathers over some contrived culture war bollocks.

[classycarra]

its cringeworthy as fuck how people drag politics into everything these days like absolute bores. and i say this as someone with huge interst in politics and a high tolerance/desire to chat politics when the occasion is right. I'm meaning those who think they're being really edgy and subversive, or triggering a reaction among 'the enemy' by applying some boring political badge.

think for example like when some people interrupt a good song on the kop with a maggie maggie maggie or fcuk the tories chant - get a bunch of men in their 50s giggling like an 8 year old who just learned a swear word. i'm happier singing for the team and going 5 minutes without thinking about conservatives. hard to escape all these bores nowadays though

[bradders1011]

Bring back Silverlink and the Goblin Line.

[Scottymuser]

Whilst I agree that it makes for funny viewing that was my main issue with it, that we seem to have reduced ourselves to tit-for-tat point-scoring between "woke" and "anti-woke".  People shouldn't really get triggered by such things but anyone with a bit of forethought would have known that people would.  They've given GB News a lovely distraction from the chaos of the ruling government and a juicy red-meat stick to beat Sadiq Khan and, by extension, Labour with.

Just as the anti-EU brigade built their arguments on nonsense like straight bananas (rather than their real gripes about the EU raising environmental and employment standards - policies which nibbled into the profits of corporations) we now have this never-ending sideshow of culture wars.

I'm almost certainly reading too much into it so excuse my ranting.  It's a broader frustration that people shrug their shoulders when billions of Covid money is written off or their public services crumble around them but spit feathers over some contrived culture war bollocks.

I disagree - I think we should still be looking to pay tribute to the likes of the Windrush Generation, or the Suffragette/ists movement - the fact that it is triggering the idiots on the Right is amusing, but shouldn't be a reason to *NOT* pay tribute in case it does trigger them.  Frankly, fuck them and their like who get outraged by sensible decisions. 

If your issue is more "its a waste of money" - lets be clear - it less than £1 per londoner, and it *does* make it so so much easier to navigate and use the Overground in conjunction with the Underground now.  It will involve a lot of work replacing all signage, and I strongly think it will make it significantly easier for *anyone* using the Overground.  What seems to be ignored by a lot on the Right is that having an underground map with *SIX* different lines all criss-crossing, all with the same colour and number, makes it much harder to navigate *AS WELL AS* makes it seem like a second class citizen (which is especially an issue given the historically poorer neighbourhoods that the overground tends to service more).

[classycarra]

I disagree - I think we should still be looking to pay tribute to the likes of the Windrush Generation, or the Suffragette/ists movement

Thing is, it's the state 'paying tribute to' (aka lipservice) to the windrush generation. I think london's communities (including the Caribbean community) already does this and is entitled to draw attention to it - and it always feels more sincere when it's organic and people-driven not politician-driven. seeing political entities do it though, particularly while those communities are still subject to unaddressed injustice, just feels like laundering the image of government (uk and london)

What seems to be ignored by a lot on the Right is that having an underground map with *SIX* different lines all criss-crossing, all with the same colour and number, makes it much harder to navigate *AS WELL AS* makes it seem like a second class citizen (which is especially an issue given the historically poorer neighbourhoods that the overground tends to service more).

overground is largely considered the posh one, not the second class citizen compared to the tube.

also the lines don't all criss cross. it's pretty minimal on the rare occasions it happens. they're all quite delineated and mostly loop around outside the traditional tube map (when not zoomed out beyond utility to zone 12 or wherever).

agree though that naming sections could help (although the names having no geographical/location in them makes it a bit more abstract and harder to remember). cant imagine many people already here switching to saying 'i'm getting the lioness to crystal palace, see you around 16:00' - expect it'll still just be overground to most regular users (outside of visitors)

[Scottymuser]

Thing is, it's the state 'paying tribute to' (aka lipservice) to the windrush generation. I think london's communities (including the Caribbean community) already does this and is entitled to draw attention to it - and it always feels more sincere when it's organic and people-driven not politician-driven. seeing political entities do it though, particularly while those communities are still subject to unaddressed injustice, just feels like laundering the image of government (uk and london)
overground is largely considered the posh one, not the second class citizen compared to the tube.

also the lines don't all criss cross. it's pretty minimal on the rare occasions it happens. they're all quite delineated and mostly loop around outside the traditional tube map (when not zoomed out beyond utility to zone 12 or wherever).

agree though that naming sections could help (although the names having no geographical/location in them makes it a bit more abstract and harder to remember). cant imagine many people already here switching to saying 'i'm getting the lioness to crystal palace, see you around 16:00' - expect it'll still just be overground to most regular users (outside of visitors)

But half of the Underground stations have nothing about them to indicate geographical location - and even some that do are pointless ("Victoria Line" being named after a station in the *middle* of the line that has 2 other tube stations going through it for instance).  Or the "central line" meaning the one that goes through the centre - well of course it bloody well does, almost every tube station does!

[classycarra]

But half of the Underground stations have nothing about them to indicate geographical location - and even some that do are pointless ("Victoria Line" being named after a station in the *middle* of the line that has 2 other tube stations going through it for instance).  Or the "central line" meaning the one that goes through the centre - well of course it bloody well does, almost every tube station does!

Right. And? Those aren't being renamed! Having decades long usage have made them easier to associate.

You said these names would help people navigate the overground - i added that it would be an even more helpful induction and adaptation for users, if that's the goal, to have names that have a more obvious association with the overground line (the most obvious being location names that have been on every sign since its inception)

[Fortneef]

overground is largely considered the posh one, not the second class citizen compared to the tube.

No no no. Overground is the poor relation pseudotoob that north london wankers scoff at. 

[Scottymuser]

Right. And? Those aren't being renamed! Having decades long usage have made them easier to associate.

You said these names would help people navigate the overground - i added that it would be an even more helpful induction and adaptation for users, if that's the goal, to have names that have a more obvious association with the overground line (the most obvious being location names that have been on every sign since its inception)

I agree it would make it "more easy" - but why should it be any different to historic naming?  And if you argument is, basically "oh, we've gotten used to the names that X years ago made no sense" - that supports my argument entirely that people will get used to these new names.  Even then 4 of the 6 new lines *are* named more geographically than most of the underground lines  (Lioness goes through Wembley, Windrush goes through a lot of historic West Indian neighbourhoods, Weaver goes through the areas that used to be textile manufacturing, Mildmay goes through Mildmay park, Liberty goes near to the Liberty shopping centre).

Why should we beholden to boring "North London Line" (wow, thats not going to be confused with the Northern line) say (one of the older "colloquially used" names) just because we don't think a new name would be gotten used to.

[classycarra]

No no no. Overground is the poor relation pseudotoob that north london wankers scoff at. 

Nah!

In north london alone, overground serves West Hampstead, Highbury Islington, Canonbury, Dalston, Shoreditch - those who scoff would scoff at getting on the victoria/northern line instead of overground

[filopastry]

Nah!

In north london alone, overground serves West Hampstead, Highbury Islington, Canonbury, Dalston, Shoreditch - those who scoff would scoff at getting on the victoria/northern line instead of overground

I have a choice of Victoria Line or Overground from Walthamstow, normally take the Overground, its a bit more pleasant

[classycarra]

I have a choice of Victoria Line or Overground from Walthamstow, normally take the Overground, its a bit more pleasant

See Fortneef, I win

I'd do the same in your shoes Filo

[ToneLa]

Overground sounds a bit like why I sometimes prefer the bus: YOU GET TO SEE THINGS

[Yorkykopite]

Really surprised, given Sadiq Khan's football loyalties, that one of the lines isn't called "And Fairclough is onside. This bounce could be interesting. FAIRCLOUGH!!!!..... line"

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Underground, overground, wombling free

[Fortneef]

See Fortneef, I win

I'd do the same in your shoes Filo

Jokes on yous, it just put 10% on my property value . But I shall think fondly of you as I dine on fine sushi and champagne tonight and may even send a small donation to a northern workhouse.   

(This joke will then redouble on me when i get shanked on the way home )

[meady1981]

They can call them what they like, I’ll still just be calling it all the overground. Or ‘just get the overground’.

[classycarra]

Jokes on yous, it just put 10% on my property value . But I shall think fondly of you as I dine on fine sushi and champagne tonight and may even send a small donation to a northern workhouse.   

(This joke will then redouble on me when i get shanked on the way home )

Get an extra dash of guacamole on the side for me chum!

[Crosby Nick]

Really surprised, given Sadiq Khan's football loyalties, that one of the lines isn't called "And Fairclough is onside. This bounce could be interesting. FAIRCLOUGH!!!!..... line"

Or an “It Was Over The Line” passing through whichever station is closest to Chelsea.

[KissThisGuy]

Adding more colours to the tube map will make it even more of an unreadable mess. I don't think adding names will make the overground easier to navigate. I wasn't even aware it was a problem.

[bradders1011]

Regardless of your thoughts on the politics or meaning of the names, I think we all know that the marketing committee who came up with them inhale their own farts deeply.

[TipTopKop]

Underground, overground, wombling free

Oh ffs now I'm going to have this tune in my head all night!

[Alf]

I don't see why the lines need naming. Prefer the Overground to the tube, newer and cleaner trains. The sceptic in me says they'll looking at selling naming rights at some point in the near future

[Scottymuser]

I don't see why the lines need naming. Prefer the Overground to the tube, newer and cleaner trains. The sceptic in me says they'll looking at selling naming rights at some point in the near future

Because having SIX lines have the same colour and same name makes it impossible to navigate for 90% of people. There is a reason why no other city on the planet has a similar system without differentiating them. When the overground was 1 or 2 lines it was ok, maybe. But having 6, with multiple interchanges, multiple national rail stations and other actual underground lines.  Whether names should be georgrphical, more like the actual tube lines (like these), or numbered/lettered is irrelevant. But it did need doing.

[classycarra]

Because having SIX lines have the same colour and same name makes it impossible to navigate for 90% of people. There is a reason why no other city on the planet has a similar system without differentiating them.

come on now

[redbyrdz]

Because having SIX lines have the same colour and same name makes it impossible to navigate for 90% of people. There is a reason why no other city on the planet has a similar system without differentiating them. When the overground was 1 or 2 lines it was ok, maybe. But having 6, with multiple interchanges, multiple national rail stations and other actual underground lines.  Whether names should be georgrphical, more like the actual tube lines (like these), or numbered/lettered is irrelevant. But it did need doing.

Maybe not in cities, but the national rail system seems to manage without naming specific lines. Usually when getting a train, the destination and the time it leaves are the main things you need to get around.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Because having SIX lines have the same colour and same name makes it impossible to navigate for 90% of people. There is a reason why no other city on the planet has a similar system without differentiating them. When the overground was 1 or 2 lines it was ok, maybe. But having 6, with multiple interchanges, multiple national rail stations and other actual underground lines.  Whether names should be georgrphical, more like the actual tube lines (like these), or numbered/lettered is irrelevant. But it did need doing.

No, it doesn't. I've used it, and lived on different points, for years and I've never met anyone who's had troubles navigating it. Why would they have any more trouble than they do with the rail system?

I don't have any issues with the names incidentally, but the colour change will make it harder to make out on the map.

[Red_Mist]

Done a fair bit of work for the tube/TfL over the years and I’ll say this for them, they properly push equality and diversity. Not in a political way, just in a straightforward ‘it’s the right thing to do let’s celebrate it’ kind of way. So this naming doesn’t surprise me, seems sensible, and if it triggers a gammon or two even better.

[kavah]

^ right, the Lioness line is a great name for the track running through Wembley to Euston.

[Sangria]

Done a fair bit of work for the tube/TfL over the years and I’ll say this for them, they properly push equality and diversity. Not in a political way, just in a straightforward ‘it’s the right thing to do let’s celebrate it’ kind of way. So this naming doesn’t surprise me, seems sensible, and if it triggers a gammon or two even better.

If the most liberal city in the UK wishes to do this, I'm not quite sure why gammons in the shires should have a say. If they want a say, vote for another London mayor.

[LuverlyRita]

The Pankhurst line
The Mary Earps line
The Benjamin Zephaniah line

Just prefer names as they sound better.

The problem with using names of people is when some negative information emerges. I think Mrs Pankhurst was involved in the "White Feather" movement which was aimed at pressuring young men to go, or return, to the front in WW1 - a particularly cruel endeavour when some of the individuals were suffering from shell-shock.

[TepidT2O]

The problem with using names of people is when some negative information emerges. I think Mrs Pankhurst was involved in the "White Feather" movement which was aimed at pressuring young men to go, or return, to the front in WW1 - a particularly cruel endeavour when some of the individuals were suffering from shell-shock.

I just refer the sound of the names ….substitute with others where appropriate by all means

[Wabaloolah]

Well it's got David Frost's gander up, as he thinks they should all be named after the Monarchy so I'm all for it

[Only Me]

Well it's got David Frost's gander up, as he thinks they should all be named after the Monarchy so I'm all for it

You have to admit though, the Inbred, Ugly as fuck, Paedophile Nonce Rapist Sponger Line does have a certain ring to it....

[Alan_X]

I rode the length of the Lioness today.

Naming the lines reduces the difference between the tube and overground trains - emphasising the integrated nature of the network. If you want to name them, they areas good a set of names as any.

Spot on. Half the names of the existing tube lines are meaningless. What exactly is the Metropolitan Line? What District does the District line serve? Loads of the Northern Line stations are in south London. The Victoria line was built a hundred years after Queen Victoria died.

They’re just names. interesting to see the reactions to the Lioness line and the Suffragette line.

[Yorkykopite]

Suffragist Line would have been more inclusive.

[classycarra]

Suffragist Line would have been more inclusive.

Definitely

The conflation must be like nails on a chalkboard for a historian

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Oh ffs now I'm going to have this tune in my head all night!

 

The Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we