Topic: When will it be enough ?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

https://donate.redcross.org.uk/appeal/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territory-appeal


Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help



A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her.

Hind Rajab was fleeing the city with her aunt, uncle and three cousins when the car they were travelling in appears to have come face to face with Israeli tanks, and come under fire.

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.



One paramedic told journalists that Hind was among the six bodies found inside the car, all of which showed signs of gunfire and shelling.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

"We got the coordination, we got the green light," PRCS spokeswoman, Nibal Farsakh, told me earlier this week. "On arrival, [the crew] confirmed that they could see the car where Hind was trapped, and they could see her. The last thing we heard is continuous gunfire."

Recordings of Hind's conversations with call operators - shared publicly by the Red Crescent - sparked a campaign to find out what had happened to her.

Hind's mother told us - before her body was discovered - that she was waiting for her daughter "any moment, any second".

She called on the Red Crescent to publish the details of its coordination with the Israeli army.

We twice asked the army for details on its operations in the area that day, and about the disappearance of Hind and the ambulance sent to retrieve her - it said it was checking.

We have asked again for their response to the allegations made by the Palestinian Red Crescent on Saturday.

The rules of war say medical personnel must be protected and not targeted in a conflict, and that injured people must be given the medical care they need - to the fullest practical extent and with the least possible delay.

Israel has previously accused Hamas of using ambulances to transport its weapons and fighters.


The car belonging to the Palestinian Red Crescent paramedics was completely burnt out

Or will it never be enough ?

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

It's so clearly ethnic cleansing at this point that I would argue that this thread should now be allowed. The Israelis are planning to cleanse Rafah next... I wonder where they are hoping to drive those people - more than a million - this time? Into Egypt, no doubt, to judge from the noises coming from the loose-lipped far-right Zionists in the war cabinet.

This is a major war crime, aided and abetted by western governments. No one needs to be an "anti-semite" to see that, at this juncture.

[spen71]

My late father always said “Israel will never be happy until Palestine is wiped off the face of the earth”.   He is being proved right

[Kalito]

It's so clearly ethnic cleansing at this point that I would argue that this thread should now be allowed. The Israelis are planning to cleanse Rafah next... I wonder where they are hoping to drive those people - more than a million - this time? Into Egypt, no doubt, to judge from the noises coming from the loose-lipped far-right Zionists in the war cabinet.

This is a major war crime, aided and abetted by western governments. No one needs to be an "anti-semite" to see that, at this juncture.

It's a fucking disgrace what's happening and being allowed to happen.

[kavah]

Yes right. I know the thread will probably get locked because it's too difficult to moderate.

It's grim because Netanyahu seems hell-bent on destruction and death. I don't know how strong his support in Israel? It's very depressing. Obviously he's emboldened by Trump and the Republicans also.

[Terry de Niro]

Needs to be stopped right now.
This is not a war, this is pure evil genocide.

[TipTopKop]

The one, single difference I've noticed about this conflict from all the past ones, is that social media -and the way videos and clips travel- has meant we're no longer viewing this brutality through the lens of the usual 3 or 4 news outlets.

Our countries here in the west are also made up of a very different demographic from decades past. You walk down the street and see people from all over the world.

What I'm trying to say, is with each passing day this decades old conflict is becoming harder and harder to justify and explain.

Peace talks are a must. Governments can't keep turning a blind eye and hold 'traditional' takes.

The people they serve are more knowledgeable, more informed, with kids uploading videos on TikTok and other platforms going "Hang on a minute, this doesn't add up".

A real change is needed for these 2 sides to exist side by side. Neither will be going away. Enough people have suffered, for far too long.

The US can keep veto'ing this call or that call, but I would hope they're reaching some sort of a limit with all of this nonsense.

I'll pray for some real, honest, peace talks.

I'd imagine the only talks that would truly make a difference would be brokered by a nation/nations with no stake in the conflict. It's a pointless charade having the US act as a mediator.

Someone else needs to step in and speak frankly to both sides. The findings or conclusions should then be respected by all sides, and no-one will be allowed to veto this or veto that.

Feels like a dream and maybe it is, but until that happens I see no other realistic conclusion because neither side will go away.

[Hazell]

Needs to be stopped right now.
This is not a war, this is pure evil genocide.

Yep.

[Red-Soldier]

Needs to be stopped right now.
This is not a war, this is pure evil genocide.

Agree.  The Israeli government are no friends of either side.

[Snail]

That poor, poor baby. I weep for them.

[FiSh77]

The world is fucked, silly c*nts arguing with other silly c*nts over who has the biggest god or other such bollocks

Unless we become fully secular this shit will go on until we destroy ourselves

[FlashGordon]

Never, that's the problem.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Dont forget who backed this.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

The world is fucked, silly c*nts arguing with other silly c*nts over who has the biggest god or other such bollocks

Unless we become fully secular this shit will go on until we destroy ourselves

"Secular" nations seem to do a fine job of conducting wars on a regular basis, nevertheless.

[Kalito]

The one, single difference I've noticed about this conflict from all the past ones, is that social media -and the way videos and clips travel- has meant we're no longer viewing this brutality through the lens of the usual 3 or 4 news outlets.

Our countries here in the west are also made up of a very different demographic from decades past. You walk down the street and see people from all over the world.

What I'm trying to say, is with each passing day this decades old conflict is becoming harder and harder to justify and explain.

Peace talks are a must. Governments can't keep turning a blind eye and hold 'traditional' takes.

The people they serve are more knowledgeable, more informed, with kids uploading videos on TikTok and other platforms going "Hang on a minute, this doesn't add up".

A real change is needed for these 2 sides to exist side by side. Neither will be going away. Enough people have suffered, for far too long.

The US can keep veto'ing this call or that call, but I would hope they're reaching some sort of a limit with all of this nonsense.

I'll pray for some real, honest, peace talks.

I'd imagine the only talks that would truly make a difference would be brokered by a nation/nations with no stake in the conflict. It's a pointless charade having the US act as a mediator.

Someone else needs to step in and speak frankly to both sides. The findings or conclusions should then be respected by all sides, and no-one will be allowed to veto this or veto that.

Feels like a dream and maybe it is, but until that happens I see no other realistic conclusion because neither side will go away.

Great post, mate.

[Kalito]

Needs to be stopped right now.
This is not a war, this is pure evil genocide.

This.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Just donated to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, their drivers and paramedics have balls of steel.

You can do it through the British Red Cross.

https://donate.redcross.org.uk/appeal/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territory-appeal

Still can't put into words how I feel about this murder, the horror that little baby went through is too much to think about.

[Kalito]

Well in, WAP.

Not just their drivers and paramedics - the normal men, boys in their flip flops and vests helping each other and everyone out and doing their bit.

Bravest set of people on this planet.

[The North Bank]

Natanyahu did ask if he could do this “its not only your right, its your duty” he was told. Its the type of endorsement you need to ethnically cleanse . Now hes only fulfilling his duty against the “ Amalek” to eliminate “the children of darkness”, all his own words. Theyre not seen as children or even human, far easier to slaughter in that mindset.

[Red Beret]

One of my dearest friends is a Jewish American who moved to Israel to get married.  She's told me enough to know this isn't a black and white issue, but from what she says, Netanyahu is not popular at all. Seems to me that regular Palestinians and Israelis are caught in the crossfire of their respective political leadership 

[Nobby Reserve]

The world is fucked, silly c*nts arguing with other silly c*nts over who has the biggest god or other such bollocks

Unless we become fully secular this shit will go on until we destroy ourselves

The resistance to occupation of Palestine was the secular PLO.

After years of struggle, we had the Olso Accords that set a framework for a two-state solution.

Then Rabin was assassinated by the type of zealous lunatic that now sit in the Israeli government, the Israeli people voted this war criminal into power, and the chances of a peace were lost. Since then, Israel has shifted further to the far-right, not least as the majority of immigrants into Israel since 93 have been the more lunatic religious fanatics.

We've found out in recent years that the Israeli government funded a fledgling Hamas to try to weaken the secular Fatah. And Hamas were elected in Gaza on a groundswell of Palestinian disillusionment with Fatah after their concessions to the Israeli government secured nothing but derision and more illegal settlements in return.

This Israeli regime is plainly guilty of crimes against humanity. They are in the very same bracket of evil as those who committed similar slaughter of innocents in the Balkans, and the same bracket of evil as Putin.

The hypocrisy of the US and wider West is sickening - and, given the shifting global geopolitical order, will come to bite them

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

It seems like the tide of opinion is finally, slowly, turning. I don't hear many voices speaking up for this slaughter being merely Israel's right to self defense any more, and senior diplomats and politicians are publicly telling Israel to stop. I don't think Netanyahu will though, unless Biden expressly tells him this is over and pulls further aid. He's too in hock to the ultra-right elements that he relies on to stay in power, who would gladly see the Palestinian people driven from Gaza by whatever means it takes.

This has been a shameful episode in the halls of western democracies, with politicians too scared of being called anti-semites to prevent the displacement, starvation, imprisonment and massacre of many thousands of innocent Palestinians.

The extremists on both sides have to be removed from power, permanently, and there must be a strong Palestinian state that recognises the right of Israel to exist alongside it. Any other attempts at solving this will inevitably fail.

[Red-Soldier]

It seems like the tide of opinion is finally, slowly, turning. I don't hear many voices speaking up for this slaughter being merely Israel's right to self defense any more, and senior diplomats and politicians are publicly telling Israel to stop. I don't think Netanyahu will though, unless Biden expressly tells him this is over and pulls further aid. He's too in hock to the ultra-right elements that he relies on to stay in power, who would gladly see the Palestinian people driven from Gaza by whatever means it takes.

This has been a shameful episode in the halls of western democracies, with politicians too scared of being called anti-semites to prevent the displacement, starvation, imprisonment and massacre of many thousands of innocent Palestinians.

The extremists on both sides have to be removed from power, permanently, and there must be a strong Palestinian state that recognises the right of Israel to exist alongside it. Any other attempts at solving this will inevitably fail.

I think his plan is to try and drag it out until at least the US election, and hope that Trump wins.  A bit like Putin.  Not that the US have been very quick to condemn their actions, anyway.

I agree that the West has lost any resemblence of morality it had, by turning a blind eye.  And, it will certainly come back to bite them, in the future.  Particularly, when it comes to countries that are not natural allies.

[kavah]

^ yes, Netanyahu and Putin will be praying for Trump.
Just watching some anti-war protests in Tel Aviv on DW which I haven’t seen covered on other channels. Seemed quite  big one. They need tens of thousands on the streets to send the message

[Draex]

It’s genocide, evil c*nts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68266335

[Red-Soldier]

It’s genocide, evil c*nts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68266335

It's going to be horrendous (it already is)!

[The North Bank]

When the killing eventually stops, and the rubble is removed, the true horrors are revealed and theres only silence left. I hope the thirst for blood is quenched in the human rights, freedom, and peace loving west.

[jillcwhomever]

There is one country that none have you have even mentioned and is probably the one that causes the biggest mayhem between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that is Iran. So, what is the world supposed to do about Iran? Even if you managed to remove Netanyahu and put in someone else and persuade the fanatical part of Hamas to come to the table, you will still get Iran sneakily creating havoc elsewhere, and enticing other anti Israeli groups into the conflict. This is probably why the west has got itself into this mess, as they know whatever they do, it will not stop Iran from meddling and then causing future mayhem, between Israel and Palestine. It's why I just don't know what the world can do anymore. It's horrible as innocents are suffering but until the issue of Iran is solved I am not even sure where the Middle East goes politically.

[TSC]

Yes right. I know the thread will probably get locked because it's too difficult to moderate.

It's grim because Netanyahu seems hell-bent on destruction and death. I don't know how strong his support in Israel? It's very depressing. Obviously he's emboldened by Trump and the Republicans also.

Reportedly many Israelis want him out. 

https://dnyuz.com/2024/02/05/many-israelis-want-netanyahu-out-but-there-is-no-simple-path-to-do-it/

[Bobsackamano]

There is one country that none have you have even mentioned and is probably the one that causes the biggest mayhem between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that is Iran. So, what is the world supposed to do about Iran? Even if you managed to remove Netanyahu and put in someone else and persuade the fanatical part of Hamas to come to the table, you will still get Iran sneakily creating havoc elsewhere, and enticing other anti Israeli groups into the conflict. This is probably why the west has got itself into this mess, as they know whatever they do, it will not stop Iran from meddling and then causing future mayhem, between Israel and Palestine. It's why I just don't know what the world can do anymore. It's horrible as innocents are suffering but until the issue of Iran is solved I am not even sure where the Middle East goes politically.

There is a possibility that Iran's influence amongst the Palestinian people will diminish. First of all the majority of Palestinians are Sunni and Iran is a Shia theocracy so they are to some extent uneasy bedfellows. Secondly there are rumblings amongst the Sunni's in the middle east that Iran egged on Hamas to commit the October 7th atrocities for their own geopolitical and internal reasons and has left them hanging out to dry. There's an argument that one of the reasons for Israel's Uber hard-line stance is to humiliate Iran, a message to all it's proxies 'you do Iran's bidding and we will bomb you to shit and your mates in Iran won't come to your rescue'.

[jillcwhomever]

There is a possibility that Iran's influence amongst the Palestinian people will diminish. First of all the majority of Palestinians are Sunni and Iran is a Shia theocracy so they are to some extent uneasy bedfellows. Secondly there are rumblings amongst the Sunni's in the middle east that Iran egged on Hamas to commit the October 7th atrocities for their own geopolitical and internal reasons and has left them hanging out to dry. There's an argument that one of the reasons for Israel's Uber hard-line stance is to humiliate Iran, a message to all it's proxies 'you do Iran's bidding and we will bomb you to shit and your mates in Iran won't come to your rescue'.

It would be hugely beneficial to any future peace plan if Iran's influence could be smoothed aside that's for sure. If they are doing it for that reason above you've stated it's a very risky strategy. There is no doubt that Netanyahu's critics are hardening inside Israel, and I hope some sort of ceasefire can be arranged before everyone is annihilated.

[Indomitable_Carp]

The whole war is catastrohpic on so many levels. No one here needs telling of the suffering of the Gaza Strip right now, let alone the West Bank where Hamas are not even the governing power.

Even if you remove questions of basic humanity (which sadly many people have proven able to do), it is increasingly difficult to justify the Israeli offensive on any political, practical or ideological level. The medium-to-long term Israeli strategy has at no point been made clear. As with the Hamas massacre of Israeli's, the Israeli government is led by a far-right strongman who has made open attempts to undermine Israeli democracy, in bed with ideological ultra-nationalist extremists who have openly expressed genocidal intent, waging a war of what at this stage can only be seen as revenge. We're now looking at a civilian death toll nearly 30 times that of the OCtober massacres. An area of 2.5 million people completely and utterly devestated. Israeli's international reputation in tatters. Yet Hamas are still operating and pretty much their entire upper political and military leadership is still in tact.

As for the West, our defence of this very predictable series of events (predictable, but no less shocking) has fatally undermined the international rule of law in the eyes of the developing world. Simultaneously, it has distracted all attention from Ukraine's existential struggle for Western democracy, and completely reversed the international solidarity that had been shown to Ukraine. Nothing so clearly illustrates the "One rule for them, another rule for the rest of us" mantra as far as much of the the rest of the world is concerned.

Disasterous. And it bodes a grim and unforgiving future if the strong men of the world think they can get away with behaving in this manner.

There is one country that none have you have even mentioned and is probably the one that causes the biggest mayhem between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that is Iran. So, what is the world supposed to do about Iran? Even if you managed to remove Netanyahu and put in someone else and persuade the fanatical part of Hamas to come to the table, you will still get Iran sneakily creating havoc elsewhere, and enticing other anti Israeli groups into the conflict. This is probably why the west has got itself into this mess, as they know whatever they do, it will not stop Iran from meddling and then causing future mayhem, between Israel and Palestine. It's why I just don't know what the world can do anymore. It's horrible as innocents are suffering but until the issue of Iran is solved I am not even sure where the Middle East goes politically.

Iran is a factor, but it is wrong to say it is the factor. Iran's relation to Hamas is the same as the USA's is to Israel. A financial, political and to some extent ideological backer and supplier of arms. But, as with the USA and Israel, it would be wrong to state Hamas is merely some Iranian puppet that does Iran's bidding.

[Red-Soldier]

Currently, the main issue is Israel obliterating Gaza and killing thousands of civilians (including huge numbers of children).  Everything else, comes after that.  I say your deflection is wrong.

Israel are currently waging a bloddy revenge!  I'm keeping my tone very restrained here, as I don't want to risk a permanent ban. 

The current situation is truly sickening!

[The North Bank]

Currently, the main issue is Israel obliterating Gaza and killing thousands of civilians (including huge numbers of children).  Everything else, comes after that.  I say your deflection is wrong.

Israel are currently waging a bloddy revenge!  I'm keeping my tone very restrained here, as I don't want to risk a permanent ban. 

The current situation is truly sickening!

Totally, deflecting is very dangerous, unless it’s deliberate. Its very disrespectful to the thousands of children in Gaza who have already been killed or are about to be slaughtered to talk of them in terms of geopolitics. Disrespectful is a nice term, inhumane is more fitting.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Totally, deflecting is very dangerous, unless it’s deliberate. Its very disrespectful to the thousands of children in Gaza who have already been killed or are about to be slaughtered to talk of them in terms of geopolitics. Disrespectful is a nice term, inhumane is more fitting.

I agree. Yet for some people it seems to be the only way to bring attention to the madness of the suffering of Gaza's civilian population (which is why I went there).

[Kenny's Jacket]

Well put, there are 2 countries who could bring this this to an end, neither are Iran.

The dont look at Israel look over here posts are disappointing yet predictable.

[Red-Soldier]

Putin is a warmonger and we stand together against war mongers.  Points finger - but what about that one?  Oh, they're an ally, so it's fine.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

I'm certain that everyone who has posted in this thread is horrified by what is happening in Gaza. Let's not return to arguing and accusing each other, which is part of what got the previous threads around this conflict shut down. Everyone has different perspectives on the detail and the background, but we all want the Israelis to stop their ethnic cleansing.

[Red-Soldier]

I'm certain that everyone who has posted in this thread is horrified by what is happening in Gaza. Let's not return to arguing and accusing each other, which is part of what got the previous threads around this conflict shut down. Everyone has different perspectives on the detail and the background, but we all want the Israelis to stop their ethnic cleansing.

I don't think we were arguing.  We just pointed out that deflection is wrong.

[TipTopKop]

There is one country that none have you have even mentioned and is probably the one that causes the biggest mayhem between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that is Iran. So, what is the world supposed to do about Iran?

Not quite Jill. Iran is awful, but as others have already pointed out, it's far from the main belligerent behind Hamas. I fear this "what do we do about Iran" is just a US regime change talking point, the way Iraq was tied to 9/11.

Iran's influence is in Iraq, in south Lebanon, and in Yemen. They have also sent their militia to Syria to help keep Assad in power at the time.

Iran's regime is awful. I'm not in anyway letting them off the hook, but in this instance their influence is limited to soundbites and threats in the press. Should Hizbollah enter the chat then we have a new ball game. But they're not.

You want to isolate Iran out in the cold? recognise the Palestenian's right to exist. Stop inching them out of their land, and stop setting up illegal settlements, while making hundreds of UN violations along the way. Iran can talk all it wants, they're far from the only country criticising Israel.

So who's really on the other side of this mess?

Hamas is backed by Qatar. Their leader resides in Doha. You won't see the US calling out the Qatar emarati's for this because the US has Al Udeid Air Base south west of Doha, and until 2 years ago they had the largest preposition site to spread freedom and democracy anywhere in the world (Al Sayliyah Camp, also just outside Doha).

The US knows what type of Sumac the Hamas leader had with his kebabs for lunch in Doha. Yet neither they -nor by proxy Mossad- are going to touch him, nor will the US criticise or pull out of Qatar for harbouring him or funding Hamas ($1.8 billion last I checked). The US sees Qatar as a partner.

I keep coming back to peace talks, and having countries with no vested interest in brokering these talks.

None of this will bring Hind Rajab back. But hopefully it can stop the impending US backed genocide from taking place in Rafah.