Topic: The Post Office Scandal

[jillcwhomever]

This BBC article is astonishing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

It's about their 2015 Panorama expose on the Post Office/Horizon, and how senior figures at the PO tried to bully and threaten both experts appearing on the programme and the programme makers themselves.

Both Ernst Young & Second Sight had assessed Horizon on behalf of the PO and, along with IT people connected to the system, warned them that Horizon was unsafe - yet the PO ignored all and simply doubled-down on the lie that Horizon was totally fine and it was postmasters thieving that was the problem, pressing ahead with prosecutions.

Even now, at the inquiry, the PO are focused mainly on protecting their own arses.

There MUST be prosecutions of senior PO figures in this.

And the government needs to claw back every penny paid to Fujitsu in connection with Horizon

I read that article on the way to work, it's absolutely incredible. They needed to speak out about it and hopefully more people will be looked at while those wrongly accused are exonerated.

[CowboyKangaroo]

So. Will the truly guilty be compensated too?

Almost certainly (save for those who have already had their cases heard). Like I say: it's a trade off. For me it is an acceptable one compared with the significant delay that letting the courts handle it would entail (these are not young folks - many have died since the scandal came to light - without compensation or exoneration)

[Fortneef]

Very rough figures

Theres 6000+ subpostmasters
Before horizon there were 6 prosecution a year
After, 60
Horizon evidence is basically worthless

So, yeah they are pretty much all innocent

[Jiminy Cricket]

Almost certainly (save for those who have already had their cases heard). Like I say: it's a trade off. For me it is an acceptable one compared with the significant delay that letting the courts handle it would entail (these are not young folks - many have died since the scandal came to light - without compensation or exoneration)

Hmm. I'm not at all sure I agree with you. Although they may be relatively few, those who did commit fraud and theft will be not only exonerated, but will receive very large amounts of compensation for being wrong convicted and/or financial losses, when they were actually guilty and their position truly of their own making.

Further, I assume the lack of an appeals process means that evidence of criminal wrongdoing by others (at the PO, lawyers, and Fujitsu) might not go undiscovered and it all this might be just quietly dropped.

I asked earlier, but unless I missed it, no one responded: has there been any reporting on how the victims would like the miscarriage of justice to be addressed?

[CowboyKangaroo]

A) Hmm. I'm not at all sure I agree with you. Although they may be relatively few, those who did commit fraud and theft will be not only exonerated, but will receive very large amounts of compensation for being wrong convicted and/or financial losses, when they were actually guilty and their position truly of their own making.

B) Further, I assume the lack of an appeals process means that evidence of criminal wrongdoing by others (at the PO, lawyers, and Fujitsu) might not go undiscovered and it all this might be just quietly dropped.

C) I asked earlier, but unless I missed it, no one responded: has there been any reporting on how the victims would like the miscarriage of justice to be addressed?

A) very much a subjective point, but I think that given the fact that the guilty are likely to be so few in number, we should prioritize the needs of the innocent
B) that is not correct about the appeal process. The inquiry into others is still happening regardless (as will the likely prosecutions which follow). The cases which have been heard already did not investigate beyond considering whether the conviction was made on the basis of the horizon evidence
C) not sure. I think the group already exonerated are against it and those waiting generally for it

[Jiminy Cricket]

A) very much a subjective point, but I think that given the fact that the guilty are likely to be so few in number, we should prioritize the needs of the innocent
B) that is not correct about the appeal process. The inquiry into others is still happening regardless (as will the likely prosecutions which follow). The cases which have been heard already did not investigation beyond considering whether the conviction was made on the basis of the horizon evidence
C) not sure. I think the group already exonerated are against it and those waiting generally for it

I am still not sure if it is the right approach, but I cannot argue against your reasoning. It is judgment call. I think, for me, the deciding factor will be point C., and I'd like to read something solid about that.

[TSC]

The real calculus here is whether it is worth the few guilty people being exonerated as a trade off for the innocent having their innocence recognized in a timely manner

Who are these few ‘guilty’ folk?

[CowboyKangaroo]

Who are these few ‘guilty’ folk?

There are a very, very small number of postmasters who have had their convictions upheld, as they were convicted on the basis of non-horizon evidence

[John C]

Whatever role Angela Van den bogerd was doing until today, I'd expect she got the boot sharpish.

She'd damage anyone's 'brand'.

[TSC]

There are a very, very small number of postmasters who have had their convictions upheld, as they were convicted on the basis of non-horizon evidence

If exoneration relates only to those impacted by Horizon related evidence, then none of those who had their convictions upheld would be included in said process.

[BobPaisley3]

I just don’t understand how this was never picked up.

If there were so many errors, wouldn’t someone have said something to Senior Mamagement so it got picked up?

Baffling.

[rob1966]

I just don’t understand how this was never picked up.

If there were so many errors, wouldn’t someone have said something to Senior Mamagement so it got picked up?

I struggle with this too - if there is a bug in our in house software, we get a ticket from IT helpdesk and we have to find and fix it, if we get an issue with a third parties software, its gets reported and fixed. When we deploy new/changed software, we have to jump on any reported bugs - I have no comprehension of how the help desk supervisiors weren't seeing this and kicking off. I once introduced a bug that messed up the daily cashing up of cheques under a specific scenario in the Branches and the Branch Operations Director went fucking mental once he found out, it was fixed the next day.

[Jiminy Cricket]

If exoneration relates only to those impacted by Horizon related evidence, then none of those who had their convictions upheld would be included in said process.

The question is what happens with those who are properly guilty of fraud/theft/whatever and have not had their case reviewed by the court of appeal. If it is an act of Parliament, they will have their cases quashed too through said Act. There is probably not many of them, but the number is highly unlikely to be zero.

[TSC]

Oops

https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/01/12/934m/

[Reflexivity]

Scouse twat Bradshaw. Grrrrrrrr Typical!

Alan Bates was born in Liverpool though .....Typical

[John C]

It's small potatoes but how many people are going to avoid PO insurance products which may otherwise have been a favourable option in the past?
I can differentiate between online PO insurance purchases underwritten by a different organisation but the Post Office name has been trashed.

The reputation of an absolute golden service, an entirely necessary and community appreciated locality has been kicked in the bollocks by greed and corruption, as usual, by the hierarchy of a closed group of executives.

Having said all that, and of course, most people will not look at their local PO any different. I visit mine many times a year, we know each others faces. The staff know the kippers of all the customers and we'll continue to support and shop there.

Sometimes its the only place I can buy RJ's chocolate & liquorice logs.
Magnificent.

[Alf]

I think this is a travesty but this doesn't surprise me. I've seen systems not fit for purpose in the financial services industry over the years.

One that counted money where my supervisor was convinced was inaccurate and didn't pick up shortfalls/forgeries etc. Another one a trading system where the trade confirmations didn't add up. It can be the case that system implementations hit a go/no stage and project working groups are given ultimatums to go live or pull the plug, due to budgets being used. This is where you need strong management and oversight functions to pull the plug.

[CowboyKangaroo]

The question is what happens with those who are properly guilty of fraud/theft/whatever and have not had their case reviewed by the court of appeal. If it is an act of Parliament, they will have their cases quashed too through said Act. There is probably not many of them, but the number is highly unlikely to be zero.

Precisely. The Court of Appeal has been looking at the question of whether the original conviction was made on the basis of the Horizon evidence. This is not known information for the cases that haven't been reviewed. Therefore, the legislation necessarily entails the possibility that some of those exonerated (if exonerated by the legislation) are guilty, even though it is likely to be a very small number.

[Red-Soldier]

Just finished watching the TV series.  There needs to be some accountability for all of this!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

remote access is common for all IT systems, in order for suppliers to fix bugs.

The biggest elephant in the room with the case for me is the denial by those in the Post Office that remote access was even possible.

It was bound to be possible. It shouldn't, however, have been possible for the user ID of the postmaster to have been used in order to update the actual transactions. It should have been stamped with the ID of the person that actually made the correction, i.e. someone from Fujitsu

It's not that simple, nor true in every instance.

You have your code-base. Releases should be performed via CRs and official releases with documented testing in place. The release procedure should be documented and performed by appropriate staff

Devs generally have no access to production data. That's usually your support staff. When I worked for government, it was a criminal offence to make undocumented/unsanctioned changes to data - which it was clear you could be prosecuted for. Changes made to data had to be via CRs and fully documented and approved. A very, very small number of people would have access to this data in read-only form and a much smaller number would have writable access.

Regardless, all changes to the code-base and databases would be audited and timestamped.

[RedDeadRejection]

Just finished watching the TV series.  There needs to be some accountability for all of this!

Hopefully ITV commission a series for Grenfell next too. Amongst other miscarriages.

[Red-Soldier]

Hopefully ITV commission a series for Grenfell next too. Amongst other miscarriages.

Indeed.

What makes a very British miscarriage of justice? Contempt for the ‘little people’

Windrush, Grenfell, the Post Office – all reveal who gets listened to and who gets ignored

It was a scandal hiding in plain sight.” “The result of a series of choices, the sum of state neglect and corporate wrongdoing.” “Most assumed that they had been caught up in a bureaucratic tangle; few guessed that thousands of others were experiencing the same difficulties.” “It is a peculiar sensation, telling the truth repeatedly and being repeatedly told you are lying.” “Our representatives chose time and again not to act on mounting evidence.” “This is a story about who gets listened to in Britain and who gets ignored.”

These could be quotes from an article about the Post Office scandal. All are, in fact, taken from Show Me the Bodies, Peter Apps’s harrowing account of the Grenfell fire, and The Windrush Betrayal, Amelia Gentleman’s unsparing investigation into the human consequences of Theresa May’s “hostile environment” policies.

The depth of public outrage elicited by the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office has forced the government to take extraordinary measures to exonerate hundreds of wrongly convicted subpostmasters and speed up compensation.

The Post Office scandal is, though, but one of a series – from the Hillsborough stadium disaster to Grenfell, from the NHS contaminated blood tragedy to child sexual abuse in Rotherham, from the English language testing fiasco to the Windrush horrors – each of which is different but all of which reveal certain underlying themes. Some are about corporate greed, others about official malfeasance or government neglect. And some about both. What all have in common is the lack of public accountability for the misdeeds that have devastated so many people’s lives.

In the case of the Post Office, there has been talk of compelling Fujitsu, the company responsible for the faulty Horizon accounting software, to contribute to the compensation scheme. Public anger has forced the Post Office’s former chief executive Paula Vennells to hand back her CBE.

Yet, despite many of the facts having been known for years, until last week little action had been taken to speed up the process of either exoneration or compensation. The facts were known when the government awarded Fujitsu new contracts, including one to extend the use of Horizon software and another to run the Police National Computer. They were known when, in 2019, Vennells received her CBE. Not until it felt the breath of public outrage in an election year did the government consider it necessary to act swiftly.

Greed and indifference, the refusal to listen to the “little” people, the despair of those ignored, the disregard, even contempt, for lives destroyed – all these themes form a pattern seen in virtually every previous scandal, including both Grenfell and Windrush. As Apps details in his book, experts had been warning of the dangers of inflammable cladding for at least 30 years before the Grenfell inferno. The warnings were brushed aside through official insouciance and the rush for profits. Companies rigged tests, concealed results and knowingly marketed potentially deadly products. Regulators snuggled up to the industry that they were supposed to regulate. Politicians became obsessed with a need to deregulate.

The Windrush scandal was driven by a take-no-hostages desire to look tough on immigration. In 2012, the home secretary, Theresa May, launched the “hostile environment” policy that turned doctors, teachers and landlords into unofficial immigration officers charged with making life intolerable for anyone who might be an “illegal immigrant”.

Ministers were warned that not just those deemed “illegal” but “anyone foreign-looking”, in the words of the communities minister, Eric Pickles, could be caught up in the frenzy. Again, the warnings were ignored, and, again, they were sadly prescient. Thousands were sacked, made homeless, denied NHS treatment and deprived of benefits because they did not have papers they were not required to have when they came from the Caribbean as British subjects in the postwar decades. Many were deported. Some died in exile.

As with other scandals, the authorities denied that there was an issue until compelled by the sheer weight of evidence, belatedly creating mechanisms for redress and compensation. But here, too, following the pattern, policy was almost designed to be slow and mean. Last June, four years after the compensation scheme was launched, just one in four of the 6,348 applications submitted had received payment.

The thread that runs through these scandals is also the lack of public accountability for misdeeds. Grenfell campaigners are frustrated not only that there has been no criminal prosecution, but also that companies whose products fed the inferno continue to make huge profits. The four former Tory ministers called to the Grenfell inquiry to justify their actions, or lack of it – Gavin Barwell, James Wharton, Eric Pickles and Brandon Lewis – have all been knighted or ennobled since the fire.

In the Windrush scandal, Amber Rudd resigned as home secretary, not for overseeing the abuse but for misleading parliament about targets to incentivise deportations. The architect of the policy, May, went on to become prime minister. In her memoir, unironically titled The Abuse of Power, she blames everyone else, from the 1945 Labour government to “overzealous” civil servants, for the problem she created.

Perhaps the most cynical development has been the creation of government obstacles to the gaining of redress for injustice. In 2014, the justice minister Chris Grayling rewrote the law so that those found by courts to have been victims of a miscarriage of justice would receive no compensation unless they could prove their innocence “beyond reasonable doubt” – effectively replacing the presumption of innocence with the presumption of guilt.

This was precisely the way the Post Office had operated in charging subpostmasters with fraud – they could not prove their innocence so they must be guilty. Together with austerity policies that have slashed legal aid, access to both justice and redress has been eviscerated over the past decade.

It is impossible to watch Mr Bates vs The Post Office without feeling a sense of rage at the injustice and the vicious mendacity of those with power over us. The subpostmasters have been courageous, tenacious and, though it certainly won’t feel like it to them, lucky. Without the TV drama, and the outrage it provoked, they might still be facing years of confronting official iniquity.

The heart of the matter remains the question of “who gets listened to and who gets ignored”. Kimia Zabihyan is an advocate for Grenfell Next of Kin, which brings together the immediate families of those who died in the fire. Nothing exasperates her more than the indifference of public bodies to the needs of ordinary people. “Our experience, since the fire,” she observes in despair, “has been that the lack of accountability is now so built into the system that it has corrupted every layer of our society.”

Kenan Malik is an Observer columnist

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/14/post-office-grenfell-windrush-scandals-contempt-lives-destroyed


I'd be amazed if there is any accountability, over this.  Just like the previous injustices, and the ones that haven't happened yet.

[rob1966]

Brexit Dave cannot remember a thing:

Cameron cannot recall ‘in any detail’ being briefed on Horizon scandal as PM

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/14/david-cameron-cannot-recall-briefed-horizon-scandal-as-pm

c*nt in lying shocker

[TSC]

Brexit Dave cannot remember a thing:

Cameron cannot recall ‘in any detail’ being briefed on Horizon scandal as PM

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/14/david-cameron-cannot-recall-briefed-horizon-scandal-as-pm

He was likely too focused on invoking austerity on the country to be even semi interested

[Eeyore]

Maybe Cameron was a “blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there”.

As he told Hillsborough victims just before the verdicts were overturned.

[Nobby Reserve]

If there was a Tory Bastard thread, it would probably be better in there but, as it's ostensibly about Alan Bates, here iwll do.

It's a very good article by Matthew Syed in the Times, of all papers:

Why I pray Alan Bates rejects a knighthood

Can I tell you what I see? I see the contours of the Post Office scandal in institutional form. I see a system in which opportunities are traded, the gilded few evade culpability and donations grease the wheels (never forget that throughout the Horizon debacle Fujitsu was donating to both the Tories and Labour) while ordinary people are left to hang. Isn’t this the pattern that characterises not just the Post Office scandal but also Grenfell, Windrush, the infected blood nightmare and so on and on?

....

We like to think we live in a meritocracy, but that is a psychotic national delusion. The longer I live, the more I glimpse the scale of social gerrymandering whereby power is conferred not on the talented and deserving but the well connected.

....

For instance, look at Zac Goldsmith, who for much of his life gamed the tax system as a non-dom, until roughly the moment he decided to run for parliament. He then gained a Tory seat despite a conspicuous lack of talent (some talked of Eton connections), ran the most racist mayoral campaign in modern history, was booted out of the Commons by voters but still landed a peerage courtesy of his old chum Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. This may be a different kind of “corruption” from the one you might see in Pakistan or Nigeria, but is it not grotesque all the same? And don’t forget that this parasite is still drawing prestige and power from his seat in the Lords.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-i-pray-alan-bates-rejects-a-knighthood-nqmvwtcxb

[Nobby Reserve]

If there was a Tory Bastard thread, it would probably be better in there but, as it's ostensibly about Alan Bates, here iwll do.

It's a very good article by Matthew Syed in the Times, of all papers:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-i-pray-alan-bates-rejects-a-knighthood-nqmvwtcxb

Full article - https://archive.is/ZK5rC

[TSC]

Fujitsu rules itself out of bidding for public contracts.  Only while the current investigation continues though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017571

[killer-heels]

Ed Davey is a twat. No idea why he was being defended by the Labour MP on Politics Live.

[TSC]

Not getting any better as per the ongoing inquiry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-68007639

[Statto Red]

Here's a James O'Brien podcast, Nick Wallis: Exposing the Post Office scandal

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/nick-wallis-exposing-the-post-office-scandal/id1454408831?i=1000642160423&theme=light

[Wabaloolah]

Ed Davey is a twat. No idea why he was being defended by the Labour MP on Politics Live.

suspect it's because a strongish Lib Dems hurts the Tories as it will take votes off them. It's better to lay the blame firmly at Dodgy Dave's door, particularly now with him being back at the heart of the government. There's nothing to be gained for Labour with Ed Davey caught in the middle of it

[Wabaloolah]

Here's a James O'Brien podcast, Nick Wallis: Exposing the Post Office scandal

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/nick-wallis-exposing-the-post-office-scandal/id1454408831?i=1000642160423&theme=light

do you have a non apple link?

[Statto Red]

do you have a non apple link?

Unfortunately no, works best on a PC/Laptop.

[killer-heels]

suspect it's because a strongish Lib Dems hurts the Tories as it will take votes off them. It's better to lay the blame firmly at Dodgy Dave's door, particularly now with him being back at the heart of the government. There's nothing to be gained for Labour with Ed Davey caught in the middle of it

I know everything is political in a sense but this is a huge miscarriage of justice and all of those involved and in positions of power need to be called out, not given a pass because of a few votes.

[Statto Red]

do you have a non apple link?

The podcast is now available on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS_mNWGwHnQ&t=1s

[Red_Mist]

Saw this on the news yesterday and it really broke my heart to see this young woman in such distress. This must be one of the worst ones. There’s a certain naivety to believe that they couldn’t see each other, but they were obviously convincing enough for it to stick, which is just plain nasty. Really shocking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-68022624.amp

[Statto Red]

Gets worse.

More than a dozen sub-postmasters and postmistresses who were victims of armed robberies were told to pay back the stolen money, the BBC has heard.

One said the Post Office wanted him to pay back £2,000 that robbers had stolen, after it spent five years refusing to upgrade his security.

BBC Newsnight knows of 15 others who experienced similar treatment, six of whom have spoken directly about it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68086588

[So… Howard Philips]

The cover up gets worse and worse. The PO sacked the 3rd party reviewers brought in to check the Horizon system after they found problems;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

[Jiminy Cricket]

The cover up gets worse and worse. The PO sacked the 3rd party reviewers brought in to check the Horizon system after they found problems;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

When are senior personnel from the PO and Fujitsu going to be charged with fraud, perjury and perverting the course of justice?