Author Topic: Brexit Mexit  (Read 9483 times)

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Brexit Mexit
« on: May 6, 2020, 10:07:02 am »
In a hope that we are soon to return to some kind of normality in the coming months, this little baby is still bubbling away like a rabbit in Fatal Attraction.. And hoping that we can someday talk about something other than COVID-19...

Here is the Brexit thread!

Will Johnson smuggle a bad Brexit through the coronavirus crisis?

When Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was a journalist he was a notorious breacher of deadlines. Officials and ministers say he carried that attitude into politics. His career has been fuelled by adrenaline wrung from the last minute of every decision, which means he has probably not yet given much thought to Brexit transitional arrangements. They expire at the end of the year. If an extension is wanted, the deadline for seeking one is 30 June. In trade negotiating time, that is soon. But in coronavirus time it is a faraway horizon.

Making the case for a longer transition are trade specialists, economists and diplomats. They understand how hard it is to bridge the gap between London and Brussels in the time available, even without a pandemic. They dread the impact of talks failing amid a Covid-induced slump and can see that the crisis has slowed progress.

Veterans of Brexit talks worry about the absence of back channels in the current phase. Screen-to-screen negotiation is no substitute for meeting face to face, but the problem goes beyond the technical hurdles imposed by quarantine. A sensitive grasp of what makes Brussels tick was a disqualification for joining the Johnson administration, which is full of people who observe European motive from afar, through lenses smeared with paranoia and complacency.

To the hardline Eurosceptic, transition looks like a remainer trick to bind the UK into continental regulations with no say and money to pay. The case against prolonging that arrangement has three elements. First, deals are easy, and only traitors or cowards deny it. Second, Brexit is a fiery spirit, best downed in a single shot. Sipping is for wimps. Third, the UK gets what it wants by threatening to walk away. The EU will make concessions if Johnson looks wild enough to down the whole Brexit bottle.

Those arguments are as wrong now as they were in their 2016-19 heyday, but they still suit the prime minister’s temperament. He is convinced that brinksmanship worked last autumn; that the performance of running at the cliff and flapping his arms delivered a better deal than the one Theresa May had proposed. It is true that Johnson’s theatrical machismo produced results – but only in the domestic arena. It convinced hardliners that any deal bearing the “Boris” brand must be sound, which gave political cover for a retreat. The Tory leader withdrew behind a customs border in the Irish Sea, something he had previously rejected and still denies having conceded, although it is a legal fact of his deal.

The myth of Johnson as world champion at playing chicken against the EU encourages him to seek a rematch. That confidence is bolstered by the belief that Brexit cliff-edges are not things from which businesses drop, but launch pads from which nations soar. The “Canada-style” free-trade deal that Johnson is seeking would disrupt the flow of goods, but the cost is meant to be offset by gains in sovereignty.

The logistics industry forecasts a need for 50,000 new customs officials to keep the border fluid. That is more than the number of civil servants employed by the whole European commission, but of course those are wicked Brussels bureaucrats who impose foreign red tape, whereas any new financial burden comes wrapped in a marvellous bow of indigenous red, white and blue tape.

That Brexit model takes the true believer down a dangerous logical pathway: if a small deal is better than a big one, no deal is the best deal of all. If the goal is separation, why keep a bridge? That was bad economics in 2019, and it has since mutated into something worse. The new strain of no-deal argument going around Tory circles is that any cost from Brexit will be irrelevant compared to the upheaval caused by coronavirus. No one will notice which bit of the hardship was caused by leaving the single market. And reconstruction will be streamlined without the need to deal with Brussels. In short, we know the house will be on fire later this year, so it is better to fan the flames than to save any of our existing stuff, because we want to build a new house and don’t like our neighbours anyway.

That is not necessarily Johnson’s view. He hitched a lift with the radical Brexit cult to carry his ambition. It matched his style combination of English nationalism worn with libertine swagger. It served him well as a campaign vehicle. But as a programme for government, it has limitations. Its methods make the country poorer.

That flaw has not done Johnson any harm yet. Experience has taught him that blame for anything Europe-related can be shifted abroad or on to domestic enemies. He will be tempted to try smuggling the economic pain of Brexit inside the bigger pain of Covid-19. But he might also never be as popular as he is now, at the crest of a national crisis. If there is a pragmatic compromise to be made, this is the moment. His subservient MPs would fall into line and not many voters would care, or even notice.

Tories who know Johnson well say that his overarching concerns have always been his place in history, and the need for it to be heroic. Last year that meant releasing the UK from the EU. Now it hangs on his handling of the pandemic. The prime minister’s Brexit calculations will flow exclusively from whatever he thinks does the least damage to his personal brand and legacy.

His crammer’s instinct is to ride a deadline and hope for the best. If he suspects that his status as a national champion will be dented by a European accident in December, he will swerve. But Johnson is a reckless, inattentive driver, and the only safe turning point is coming up soon. He could overshoot simply because he has not bothered to read the map or focus on dangers further down the road.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/06/tories-brexit-coronavirus-boris-johnson

Will Johnson smuggle a bad Brexit through the coronavirus crisis?

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Offline SP

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #1 on: May 6, 2020, 10:13:09 am »
Johnson is hell bent on pushing through Brexit and being able to blame the damage on Corona is a feature not a bug.

I don’t think he will get away with it like that, but I do fear that enormous damage will be done before the public get a chance to oust him.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2020, 06:17:37 pm »
Thought this was good by David Gauke (ex-Tory MP who was expelled from the Tories for not agreeing with Johnson's version of Brexit) on the driving forces behind the form Brexit will take.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-anniversary-of-the-brexit-referendum-five-lessons-learnt/

Quote
On the Leave side, the advantage was with those who argued for the purist form of Brexit. Anyone attempting to reconcile the conflicting claims of the Leave campaign – particularly with regard to the sovereignty/market access trade-offs – was vulnerable to the accusation of betrayal (particularly as those in positions of responsibility trying to find a way through this had generally campaigned to Remain).

The Leave campaign had successfully mobilised the support of voters who believed that they had been ignored and neglected by a metropolitan, liberal establishment. It was all too easy to make the case that the very same metropolitan, liberal establishment was willing to cheat the public of their 2016 triumph.

As the nature of the proposed Brexit became progressively harder – from ‘trading on exactly the same terms as we have now’ to trading on something which, at best, is not likely to be much advanced on WTO terms – the consent of the losing Remain side evaporated.

If Leavers considered a soft Brexit as pointless and unacceptable, Remainers were no longer willing to accept a hard Brexit perceived as being much more painful than the Leave campaign had promised in the referendum campaign.

In a saner world, the Brexit mandate expired with us leaving the EU. In this one, we're still at the stage where the government taking legal advice on whether it's possible to extend negotiations on even having a trade deal with the EU is done behind smoke and mirrors.
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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 05:31:52 am »
Phew, read the thread title and thought Malta were leaving too. That's a relief... EU saved.

Offline eddymunster

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2020, 09:17:19 am »
"Schmexit" surely?
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2020, 12:51:11 pm »
Phew, read the thread title and thought Malta were leaving too. That's a relief... EU saved.
What is 'Mexit'? A Google search throws up no obvious answers.
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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 01:01:13 pm »
What is 'Mexit'? A Google search throws up no obvious answers.

Think it was when Meghan MArkle and harry fucked off to Canada.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 01:26:38 pm »
Think it was when Meghan MArkle and harry fucked off to Canada.
'Megxit' might have more sense. Not that I understand its relevance to the opening post or anything else really.

Thanks, Elmo.
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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 01:46:58 pm »
'Megxit' might have more sense. Not that I understand its relevance to the opening post or anything else really.

Thanks, Elmo.

I was joking.  ;D

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2020, 03:19:46 pm »
I was joking.  ;D
::) So, what's 'mexit'? ???

Oh, and by the way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megxit

 :D

Edited to add:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/blizzard-what-have-harry-and-meghan-got-to-sell-after-mexit
Quote
And so the long farewell begins.

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle — the Duke and Duchess of Sussex — are fast approaching their March 31 “Mexit” deadline, after which they’ll no longer be royal.

Your reply may have been a joke, but it seems to be on the money!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 03:25:21 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2020, 03:26:04 pm »
::) So, what's 'mexit'? ???

Oh, and by the way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megxit

 :D

Edited to add:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/blizzard-what-have-harry-and-meghan-got-to-sell-after-mexit
Your reply may have been a joke, but it seems to be on the money!

I was joking about joking...honest! I knew all along.  ;D

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2020, 03:27:59 pm »
::) So, what's 'mexit'? ???

Oh, and by the way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megxit

 :D

"Mexit" doesn't mean anything. The thread title is the Brexit equivalent of "tomato, tamahto". However you say it, it's about the UK's departure from the EU.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2020, 11:31:03 am »
I was joking about joking...honest! I knew all along.  ;D
"Mexit" doesn't mean anything. The thread title is the Brexit equivalent of "tomato, tamahto". However you say it, it's about the UK's departure from the EU.
Well, maybe it is more obvious to most other posters here than me. Except for an extended visit of a few months 2018-19, it has been 10 years since I lived in the UK. That, or I am just slow on the uptake. ;D
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Offline TSC

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2020, 08:06:40 pm »


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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2020, 09:27:20 pm »
Me it was the centre back from Auxerre everyone wanted us to sign in the Houllier era.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #16 on: July 1, 2020, 12:07:34 am »
Chance to extend the transition period has gone.

We have no deal, and will crash into terrible racing conditions in a few months.

There will probably be food shortages, Miles if queues and difficulties getting some goods.

Fucking madness.
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #17 on: July 1, 2020, 08:46:11 am »
Chance to extend the transition period has gone.

We have no deal, and will crash into terrible racing conditions in a few months.

There will probably be food shortages, Miles if queues and difficulties getting some goods.

Fucking madness.

Not really unexpected but still a shock, if that makes sense. Not seeing anything about it in the news when it should be making headlines everywhere. Unless I’m missing it.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #18 on: July 1, 2020, 08:48:17 am »
Chance to extend the transition period has gone.

We have no deal, and will crash into terrible racing conditions in a few months.

There will probably be food shortages, Miles if queues and difficulties getting some goods.

Fucking madness.

That will be fun.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #19 on: July 1, 2020, 08:48:32 am »
Well, of course, we’ve not noticed Brexit yet because the transition period essentially has buffered us.

Now?  Come December 31st were in the shit.

I’m convinced that the government plan is that they let chaos ensue and assume that the chaos will lead everyone to come to working arrangements out of necessity.  The damage caused by that could be... huge.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #20 on: July 1, 2020, 08:51:46 am »
Way I see it is if Johnson wanted 'no deal', he could have had it already. So the question is what sort of 'deal' they're willing to fudge (it'll be shit and we'll spend decades trying to renegotiate it) and, the most worrying part, whether it'll be up and running in time.

Trade experts' evidence to Parliament has been 'A deal's possible with some fudges. Having a workable arrangement on Britain's borders by 1st January, yeah, may want to think a bit about that.'
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #21 on: July 1, 2020, 10:52:32 am »
It’s clean Brexit not no deal...

Clean ... haha
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #22 on: July 1, 2020, 11:42:18 am »
Yeah, chlorinated clean.

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #23 on: July 1, 2020, 03:19:01 pm »
The impact of Brexit on the City of London probably isn't high on most people's list of worries just now. Nevertheless, it's going to be very important for the health of Britain's economy.

Barnier's latest pronouncements are unsurprising but still significant. Basically, any company using the UK as their centre for European operations is going to have to think again. I'm retired now, but it's probably bye-bye to my old job which will I expect will move to Paris.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-30/eu-finance-negotiator-rejects-u-k-plans-for-post-brexit-banking


Offline TSC

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #24 on: July 6, 2020, 03:41:10 pm »
On phone so can’t post a link, but a group called ‘the leave alliance’ apparently on twitter crying about the upcoming brexit (no) deal.  Unbelievably (or not) they’re chucking blame at ‘remainers’ for not warning/being clear about the incoming mess.

Don’t know if true but was told by someone who’s on twitter.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #25 on: July 6, 2020, 03:46:20 pm »
On phone so can’t post a link, but a group called ‘the leave alliance’ apparently on twitter crying about the upcoming brexit (no) deal.  Unbelievably (or not) they’re chucking blame at ‘remainers’ for not warning/being clear about the incoming mess.

Don’t know if true but was told by someone who’s on twitter.

"We knew what we were voting for"

Here's a link to a thread of them talking about "no deal"

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/1279871372265734147

And this is them blaming Remainers

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/1279911970028863488

I saw a reference to "Pete" in the comments, which I presume means it is long-term Brexit prick Pete North who runs the account.

Offline TSC

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #26 on: July 6, 2020, 03:48:32 pm »
"We knew what we were voting for"

Here's a link to a thread of them talking about "no deal"

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/1279871372265734147

And this is them blaming Remainers

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/1279911970028863488

I saw a reference to "Pete" in the comments, which I presume means it is long-term Brexit prick Pete North who runs the account.

Reality bites.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #27 on: July 6, 2020, 03:49:41 pm »

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #29 on: July 6, 2020, 05:33:17 pm »
Yeah, chlorinated clean.

With added medicinal hormones, so that'll be even better.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #30 on: July 7, 2020, 03:19:17 pm »
EU MEP "Is Johnson lying when he says, "we are involved in intense negotiations and they are making progress".
A Yes. Johnson wants a no deal, he is giving the illusion of negotiating a deal but will blame the nasty EU for a no deal.
https://twitter.com/agoodfireburns/status/1280197246949175297
« Last Edit: July 7, 2020, 03:25:12 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #31 on: July 7, 2020, 03:58:56 pm »
EU MEP "Is Johnson lying when he says, "we are involved in intense negotiations and they are making progress".
A Yes. Johnson wants a no deal, he is giving the illusion of negotiating a deal but will blame the nasty EU for a no deal.
https://twitter.com/agoodfireburns/status/1280197246949175297

Against that, the 'only' thing preventing a 'deal' is the Tories' ridiculous demands. If they shift on them, it happens. Politics to it, isn't it? Is the risk of 'no deal' disruption, without even the preparation for January just gone, outweighed by the steaming fury Frottage and co. will whip themselves into if Johnson does fudge things enough to get something agreed? Only silver lining to it is that it's an absolute mess Johnson's navigated himself into in order to win last general election but damage done so he could play at being PM does somewhat outweigh that...
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #32 on: July 7, 2020, 07:37:33 pm »
Against that, the 'only' thing preventing a 'deal' is the Tories' ridiculous demands. If they shift on them, it happens. Politics to it, isn't it? Is the risk of 'no deal' disruption, without even the preparation for January just gone, outweighed by the steaming fury Frottage and co. will whip themselves into if Johnson does fudge things enough to get something agreed? Only silver lining to it is that it's an absolute mess Johnson's navigated himself into in order to win last general election but damage done so he could play at being PM does somewhat outweigh that...
I don't think Johnson just wants a no deal, he wants to renege on the WA as well and lay all the blame on the EU.
I can't see how a deal can be done without extending the transition even if Johnson wanted to fudge his Brexit stance.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #33 on: July 7, 2020, 07:56:15 pm »
I don't think Johnson just wants a no deal, he wants to renege on the WA as well and lay all the blame on the EU.
I can't see how a deal can be done without extending the transition even if Johnson wanted to fudge his Brexit stance.
Is that even possible now? I thought the UK had passed the point of no return on that.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #34 on: July 7, 2020, 08:10:22 pm »
Is that even possible now? I thought the UK had passed the point of no return on that.
Yeah, the deadline was near the end of June so strictly speaking it's too late but we've heard this before, one of the extensions was done with just a few days left before a no deal. I remember May  sat outside EU meeting in Brussels waiting to hear the EUs decision.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #35 on: July 7, 2020, 08:30:38 pm »
I don't think Johnson just wants a no deal, he wants to renege on the WA as well and lay all the blame on the EU.
I can't see how a deal can be done without extending the transition even if Johnson wanted to fudge his Brexit stance.

Boffins reckon it wouldn't take much in the real world to sort out, although there's that nasty gap on the horizon for 1st January until something kicks in. Have til October/November before deadlines for ratification start to bite hard. But can see an argument that Johnson will carry on regardless because it's in his political interest not to risk splitting his own support.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #36 on: July 7, 2020, 08:31:09 pm »
Yeah, the deadline was near the end of June so strictly speaking it's too late but we've heard this before, one of the extensions was done with just a few days left before a no deal. I remember May  sat outside EU meeting in Brussels waiting to hear the EUs decision.
But would an extension require new EU legislation and ratification in each member state? Genuine question - I do mean to imply this is the case.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #37 on: July 7, 2020, 08:36:16 pm »
Extending transition would require altering treaties so, yeah, ratification to do and political will to do it in each member state (and sub-national parliament) before 1st January deadline passes.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #38 on: July 7, 2020, 08:41:24 pm »
Boffins reckon it wouldn't take much in the real world to sort out, although there's that nasty gap on the horizon for 1st January until something kicks in. Have til October/November before deadlines for ratification start to bite hard. But can see an argument that Johnson will carry on regardless because it's in his political interest not to risk splitting his own support.
Am sure they know more about trade deals than me but they can't be talking about a comprehensive free trade deal when they say we can sort it out. if you look at the actual free trade deals they are massive, big long agreements covering every individual thing we export in detail, I don't understand what they could mean to be honest.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit Mexit
« Reply #39 on: July 7, 2020, 08:43:44 pm »
But would an extension require new EU legislation and ratification in each member state? Genuine question - I do mean to imply this is the case.
Yeah, The EU parliament would have to pass the extension but they've rubber stamped everything EU leader has agreed too. I can't see that changing.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis