Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I still think he's a bot, a sophisticated bot but still a bot.

nah he just needs an intervention

[Yosser0_0]

SNIP

Thanks, good read that and I enjoyed it.

Last week I tackled my working class scouser Tory Dad again, following the "People's Vote" march and showed him the Heseltine speech on my phone, hoping that it would strike a chord with him. He was aware that Churchill always wanted a united Europe and the other historical references, he isn't stupid. I then pointed out some home truths to him, mostly from spending a couple of hours reading articles but also from information gained in this forum - thanks this is an amazing forum full of well informed, intelligent posters (Apart from BIG DICK NICK). 

Some of the facts that I pointed out, which completely shocked him:-

The referendum was advisory.
Theresa May's government has been found guilty of Contempt of Parliament (First in history).
You don't get free trade with the EU without freedom of movement.
ANY trade deal with the EU comes at a cost.
etc., the list continued.

He said that I sounded like a lawyer, when in reality, I've only spent a few hours reading things and that's the problem, people are just too lazy to find things out and rely on being spoon fed by bias media. I pointed out that he is being led by the far right and asked him for one single advantage of leaving the EU. He didn't want to be ruled by France/Germany and his language soon degenerated into racist terms, I told him to stop using that language and called him a racist, which he said he wasn't? I also pointed out to him, how shall I put this, that some of the terminology he used wasn't actually referring to a European race - get that!

I haven't shown it, but I've been pretty upset about it since, mainly because I'm embarrassed by somebody I've always respected. In reflection, I've been thinking about the reasons for the outburst, I don't think he is actually a racist and it was a kickback to me being such a smart arse, you know actually doing a bit of research. However the thing that really scares me is the fact that suddenly normal working class people are coming out with such extreme language AND its becoming acceptable. The current UK climate and parallels with Nazi Germany mentioned in this thread are striking, this is how it starts by making racism mainstream and acceptable.

I think it may be time for me to start exploring opportunities abroad if this is a taste of things to come.     
 

[Mag Hull]

God no still try to force that election it will be harder now.

Like Jeremy said you won't know what is on a PV it maybe just Mays deal or no deal.

I won't trust the Tories to hold a fair one once the vote to have one is won.

Fuck me Pravda or whatever you call yourself - you’re a Corbynista not a Sandinista

[Yosser0_0]

Matthew Parris in pungent form

Must admit, I don't remember the quote from T.May in '17 about voting for "Her Brexit". Is that why the Tory's lost their majority or is it more  complicated than that?

[24/7]

SNIP

Know exactly how you feel there - my mum's the same - her research amounts to reading the Daily Express, the Daily Mail and listening to whatever her mates say in the WI.........does my head in.

[oldfordie]

Thanks, good read that and I enjoyed it.

Last week I tackled my working class scouser Tory Dad again, following the "People's Vote" march and showed him the Heseltine speech on my phone, hoping that it would strike a chord with him. He was aware that Churchill always wanted a united Europe and the other historical references, he isn't stupid. I then pointed out some home truths to him, mostly from spending a couple of hours reading articles but also from information gained in this forum - thanks this is an amazing forum full of well informed, intelligent posters (Apart from BIG DICK NICK). 

Some of the facts that I pointed out, which completely shocked him:-

The referendum was advisory.
Theresa May's government has been found guilty of Contempt of Parliament (First in history).
You don't get free trade with the EU without freedom of movement.
ANY trade deal with the EU comes at a cost.
etc., the list continued.

He said that I sounded like a lawyer, when in reality, I've only spent a few hours reading things and that's the problem, people are just too lazy to find things out and rely on being spoon fed by bias media. I pointed out that he is being led by the far right and asked him for one single advantage of leaving the EU. He didn't want to be ruled by France/Germany and his language soon degenerated into racist terms, I told him to stop using that language and called him a racist, which he said he wasn't? I also pointed out to him, how shall I put this, that some of the terminology he used wasn't actually referring to a European race - get that!

I haven't shown it, but I've been pretty upset about it since, mainly because I'm embarrassed by somebody I've always respected. In reflection, I've been thinking about the reasons for the outburst, I don't think he is actually a racist and it was a kickback to me being such a smart arse, you know actually doing a bit of research. However the thing that really scares me is the fact that suddenly normal working class people are coming out with such extreme language AND its becoming acceptable. The current UK climate and parallels with Nazi Germany mentioned in this thread are striking, this is how it starts by making racism mainstream and acceptable.

I think it may be time for me to start exploring opportunities abroad if this is a taste of things to come.   

I had a conversation on the phone yesterday with a relative who emigrated to Australia last year, very calm conversation,  he was saying he voted remain but he would probably vote leave now as the EU are punishing us. I asked him to give me a example of how the EU are punishing us, he was saying they are stopping frictionless trading to punish us, they allow Switzerland to have it and they aren't in the EU. I told him Switzerland doesn't have frictionless trading, they have a hard border. he tried to get his point over without being forceful and told me, he said he had read they do and he had seen a video of the border showing people crossing with no customs checks, I pointed out they are not in the EU but they have agreed to FOM to get a single market deal so people are entitled to cross quickly but put some thing in a lorry and you will be in a long tail back queuing up to go through customs, the customs checks are on goods not people, go on you tube and check the videos when the cameras showing the right hand side of the road, it will show a very long queue of lorries, this is a typical example of leaves lies, whoever took that video would have seen those lorries  so they knew they were telling lies, he's a great lad, intelligent so there was no argument," Oh I didn't know that." I pointed out a few other things like tariffs kicking in on all goods coming in around the world, so this is not just about the effect of leaving the EU hitting us, it will hit prices in the shops on all imported goods no matter where they come from, so we are talking inflation and interest rises. he sounded shocked,  I wish all leave voters had his reaction, "am glad you told me all this,I would definitely vote remain now".

[Ghost Town]

Muphry's?

Yes Muphry's. Check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

[OneTouchFooty]

I haven't shown it, but I've been pretty upset about it since, mainly because I'm embarrassed by somebody I've always respected. In reflection, I've been thinking about the reasons for the outburst, I don't think he is actually a racist and it was a kickback to me being such a smart arse, you know actually doing a bit of research. However the thing that really scares me is the fact that suddenly normal working class people are coming out with such extreme language AND its becoming acceptable. The current UK climate and parallels with Nazi Germany mentioned in this thread are striking, this is how it starts by making racism mainstream and acceptable.

I think it may be time for me to start exploring opportunities abroad if this is a taste of things to come.     

Similar to my parents in way, though they didn’t vote in the Referendum, both are quite gullible and will believe anything they read, so extremely susceptible to media propaganda and the nonsense that goes round on Facebook, I even had to have a word with my mum about sharing a Britain First post last year ffs, a fairly harmless post about dogs but you know the next one will be some bullshit “look what Muslims are doing” post and then a Tommy Wanker video, then you see how easily decent people get sucked into it and eventually go down this far right, conspiracy rabbit hole.

However, I find just talking through basic things with my parents as to why Britain First are terrible shitstains on society and explaining how they operate and other certain media outlets is like a lightbulb moment from them.. “oooh I didn’t really think of it like that you know”

Seeing ordinary, working class folks being duped into lining up behind the interests of billionaire-funded, neo-feudalist types who use bigotry, racism and the “anti-elites” narrative as a Trojan horse for their economic ideological plan is tragic to see.

[eAyeAddio]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219352059814922&set=a.10200109856211858&type=3&eid=ARACZeGNfMIvJlMtkS3GBX4wfpuFhOmZhBUTvut2etjFKuCDH-ZkHtZ5jMqOtDoew-nkRCVnv2xr-m5O

[PaulF]

Maybe jezza is playing a blinder and duping May into calling an election, at which point to differentiate themselves they become a remain party and campaign hard! Then Harry Kane scores an og hattrick at Anfield.

[Rush 82]

Similar to my parents in way, though they didn’t vote in the Referendum, both are quite gullible and will believe anything they read, so extremely susceptible to media propaganda and the nonsense that goes round on Facebook, I even had to have a word with my mum about sharing a Britain First post last year ffs, a fairly harmless post about dogs but you know the next one will be some bullshit “look what Muslims are doing” post and then a Tommy Wanker video, then you see how easily decent people get sucked into it and eventually go down this far right, conspiracy rabbit hole.

However, I find just talking through basic things with my parents as to why Britain First are terrible shitstains on society and explaining how they operate and other certain media outlets is like a lightbulb moment from them.. “oooh I didn’t really think of it like that you know”

Seeing ordinary, working class folks being duped into lining up behind the interests of billionaire-funded, neo-feudalist types who use bigotry, racism and the “anti-elites” narrative as a Trojan horse for their economic ideological plan is tragic to see.

Honesty used to be a virtue. In these times it seems to be regarded as a quaint anachronism - lies and misdirection are the new currency of choice.

Seems that society as a whole needs some kind of cataclysmic reminder that untruth is not a virtue.

[No666]

There goes the election option.


Election Maps UK
‏ @ElectionMapsUK

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 41% (+5)
CON: 36% (-7)
UKIP: 7% (+2)
LDM: 7% (+1)

Via @DeltapollUK,
Changes w/ 21-23 Feb.

A Tory-UKIP coalition, then.

[Ghost Town]

How serene and peaceful the weekend has seemed. Not sure I'm ready for tomorrow's shenanigans

[24/7]

Yes Muphry's. Check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

Well you learn somethnig new evrey day!

[Zeb]

A Tory-UKIP coalition, then.

Incentive to hold leadership contest some months before a general election intensifies.

Hope Deltapoll release their tables including 'don't knows' this time. Their version including Change might help give some reasons why it would be useful.

CON 32 (-7)
LAB 35 (+4)
LD 7 (+2)
TIG 9 (-2)
GRN 4 (+1)
UKIP 5 (+1)

[rob1966]

Snip     

I haven't spoken to my Dad since June 2016, since he fell out with me for calling him an idiot on FB the morning after the referendum, because, no matter how hard I tried to explain it to him, show him facts (this thread educated me on the good and bad of the EU) and told him he was gambling with his Grandkids futures, he still voted Leave. He wanted an apology and I told him he would be waiting forever for that. He's always been a bit of a tit and a crap Dad, but the way he has gone on about the EU, sharing shit on FB that originated with the far right and buying into it, immigrants and Muslims is embarrassing and he is not the kind of man I want to spend time with or speak to.

Worst thing is, both my Grandads were in the desert rats and fought against the Nazi scum and against the scum who are splitting the UK.

[killer-heels]

Would be interesting to see where any UKIP surge manifests itself in terms of seats. I would imagine UKIP dont put up candidates in very hard brexit constituencies areas. Wonder if Lib Dems dont where a Labour MP is very pro remain?

[TepidT2O]

Incentive to hold leadership contest some months before a general election intensifies.

Hope Deltapoll release their tables including 'don't knows' this time. Their version including Change might help give some reasons why it would be useful.

CON 32 (-7)
LAB 35 (+4)
LD 7 (+2)
TIG 9 (-2)
GRN 4 (+1)
UKIP 5 (+1)

I suspect that polling will have a big problem at the next election.

Because, I can see turnout being exceptionally low.  And who knows which way that will turn out and who that will favour. 

[killer-heels]

I am heartened by the number of Leave supporters that will now stop voting (their claim).

[No666]

I haven't spoken to my Dad since June 2016, since he fell out with me for calling him an idiot on FB the morning after the referendum, because, no matter how hard I tried to explain it to him, show him facts (this thread educated me on the good and bad of the EU) and told him he was gambling with his Grandkids futures, he still voted Leave. He wanted an apology and I told him he would be waiting forever for that. He's always been a bit of a tit and a crap Dad, but the way he has gone on about the EU, sharing shit on FB that originated with the far right and buying into it, immigrants and Muslims is embarrassing and he is not the kind of man I want to spend time with or speak to.

Worst thing is, both my Grandads were in the desert rats and fought against the Nazi scum and against the scum who are splitting the UK.

That's sad, mate. My son-in-law almost cut his parents off when he voted Leave and she praised Trump. The parents apologised in this case - first grandkid arriving and they didn't want to lose access. But they're still Tories, of course, slightly bewildered ones I would say, who know they are ignoring solid arguments in favour of ingrained habit and emotion. I don't feel as if any football supporter can belittle the power of that.

[rob1966]

That's sad, mate. My son-in-law almost cut his parents off when he voted Leave and she praised Trump. The parents apologised in this case - first grandkid arriving and they didn't want to lose access. But they're still Tories, of course, slightly bewildered ones I would say, who know they are ignoring solid arguments in favour of ingrained habit and emotion. I don't feel as if any football supporter can belittle the power of that.

He still sees my lads, I just make sure I'm out - he refers to me as your husband to my wife.

Brexit was just the final straw in a long list. One thing that stood out was this stupid claim of his - he worked for a fencing company in Huyton, he always said the owner was a right bastard, sacked staff for stupid reasons and just a horrible person. Anyway, after my Dad had left the company, he claimed this fella sacked everyone and replaced them with Romanians. As I pointed out to him, that wasn't the Romanians fault, it was the boss taking advantage of them, but no, it was all the EU's fault.

[FlashingBlade]

I've alluded to it before one of the many issues the Pandora' s box of Brexit has unleashed is inter family politics war and the fallout it..I have heard of loads of similar stories to those above...a girl I knew refused to let her leave voting mum see her grandkids as she was married to a Greek guy....and so many more...add to this friendship fall outs  bitterness between work colleagues..this will cause problems for the UK in  the future...regardless of idiotic MPs or Prime Minister calling for unity...Any one who says that is out of touch with the country.

[OOS]

Similar to my parents in way, though they didn’t vote in the Referendum, both are quite gullible and will believe anything they read, so extremely susceptible to media propaganda and the nonsense that goes round on Facebook, I even had to have a word with my mum about sharing a Britain First post last year ffs, a fairly harmless post about dogs but you know the next one will be some bullshit “look what Muslims are doing” post and then a Tommy Wanker video, then you see how easily decent people get sucked into it and eventually go down this far right, conspiracy rabbit hole.

However, I find just talking through basic things with my parents as to why Britain First are terrible shitstains on society and explaining how they operate and other certain media outlets is like a lightbulb moment from them.. “oooh I didn’t really think of it like that you know”

Seeing ordinary, working class folks being duped into lining up behind the interests of billionaire-funded, neo-feudalist types who use bigotry, racism and the “anti-elites” narrative as a Trojan horse for their economic ideological plan is tragic to see.

They aren't duped. Working class people can speak for themselves. Everyone is an individual, within a society of course.

[Zeb]

I suspect that polling will have a big problem at the next election.

Because, I can see turnout being exceptionally low.  And who knows which way that will turn out and who that will favour. 

I'm not sure whether we'll see major shifts in seats in Parliament (even taking the Deltapoll headline figures at face value we're still in 'Labour coalition needed to form government' territory) but I think we are on for some major shifts in voting behaviour. How much so may depend on whether Labour can make a credible offer to the electorate which gets past their problems on both Brexit and Corbyn.

[OOS]

I'm not sure whether we'll see major shifts in seats in Parliament (even taking the Deltapoll headline figures at face value we're still in 'Labour coalition needed to form government' territory) but I think we are on for some major shifts in voting behaviour. How much so may depend on whether Labour can make a credible offer to the electorate which gets past their problems on both Brexit and Corbyn.

We have a FPTP system for parliament, vs every vote counts referendum. Peoples votes mattered on June 6th 2016, now we go back to about minimal swing constituencys. Gonna be hard to predict peoples behaviours!

[Zeb]

We have a FPTP system for parliament, vs every vote counts referendum. Peoples votes mattered on June 6th 2016, now we go back to about minimal swing constituencys. Gonna be hard to predict peoples behaviours!

For sure. At the same time, we do have a lot of information about who regularly votes and who tends to vote in a particular way (including on Brexit), so the landing light's on even if everyone is still pissing in the dark! Things which seem likely to be key for the next election, compared to 2017, will be whether Labour-ish voters who held their noses last time finally have had enough and vote elsewhere, and whether Tory 'remainers' turn out to vote elsewhere rather than sit at home or hold their noses.

[Red Beret]

Worst (best?) case scenario is that both Labour and the Tories fall far short of a majority. The smaller parties - SNP and the Lib Dems - are remain parties and won't countenance a coalition that includes Brexit.

But the Lib Dems would need to claw their way back to 30-40 seats for that to happen.  And if they did it would ensure political chaos. Might even force a further election.

Reading the stories in here of how Brexit has split families, I'm oddly reminded of the American civil war. The resemblance is only superficial of course though.

[No666]

Know exactly how you feel there - my mum's the same - her research amounts to reading the Daily Express, the Daily Mail and listening to whatever her mates say in the WI.........does my head in.

It's an interesting one. Chris Grey actually held talks and Q&As in our area, including our village pub, to lay the facts out. Now the turn-out to the one I attended was much bigger than I expected, so it shows that at least here in S. Cambs, there was an appetite for unbiased information, providing it was easily available locally.

[Elmo!]

Front page of the Heralkd today:

[Slick_Beef]

I've alluded to it before one of the many issues the Pandora' s box of Brexit has unleashed is inter family politics war and the fallout it..

Very true mate. It's affected my relationship with my dad. He voted leave, although in this case he got sucked into the same internet black hole as Trada, rather than the Britain First crowd. We still talk but I have to try and shut down every conversation about politics immediately, because it's like he's in some kind of cult and given the slightest opportunity will start regurgitating all this shite he's read on blogs and facebook groups over dinner while the rest of us sit there looking bewildered. Hard to recognise him sometimes.

[Currywurst]

Petition reaches 6 million.

[Yorkykopite]

I had a conversation on the phone yesterday with a relative who emigrated to Australia last year,....

Enjoyed your posts throughout this whole debacle mate.

[Red Beret]

Front page of the Heralkd today:

As the 12th Doctor once said, sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones - but you still have to choose.

The infuriating thing is that the choices are only bad for them. And that's the only reason they refuse to choose.

[cowtownred]

I must say, I thought David Gauke, and especially John Major, spoke very well on the Marr show earlier.

[killer-heels]

Does a customs union have any effect on the CAP or fisheries policy?

[oldfordie]

Enjoyed your posts throughout this whole debacle mate.

Thanks Yorkie, the last few yrs have been a real eye-opener in so many ways.

[Robinred]

For sure. At the same time, we do have a lot of information about who regularly votes and who tends to vote in a particular way (including on Brexit), so the landing light's on even if everyone is still pissing in the dark! Things which seem likely to be key for the next election, compared to 2017, will be whether Labour-ish voters who held their noses last time finally have had enough and vote elsewhere, and whether Tory 'remainers' turn out to vote elsewhere rather than sit at home or hold their noses.

I believe this to be critical should there be a G.E.

Lots of posters in this thread have resigned their L.P membership. Yet we’ve grown up with a FPTP system which effectively resigns us to reducing our choice at a G.E to a binary one.

My hope (it’s a faint one) is that the TiGs and Lib Dems align, or merge. That, given that this would be a G.E heavily focused on Brexit issues, would at least give voters like me pause to consider that my vote wasn’t focused - as in the past - on simply keeping the Tories away from power.

[24/7]

Enjoyed your posts throughout this whole debacle mate.

Plus 1.

[oldfordie]

Plus 1.

Thanks, just trying my best to stop that peoples revolution happening.

[Dr. Beaker]

Thanks, just trying my best to stop that peoples revolution happening.

Definitely the Ian Callaghan of the Remainers - when he was in his midfield dynamo phase. Praise comes no higher, you tenacious b*gg*r.