Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 13215 times)

Offline conman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #80 on: August 7, 2011, 09:03:36 pm »
Top Gear's electric car shows pour petrol over the BBC's standards
Why is Top Gear apparently exempt from the BBC's editorial guidelines and the duty not to fake the facts?



What distinguishes the BBC from the rest of this country's media? There's the lack of advertising, and the lack of a proprietor with specific business interests to defend. But perhaps the most important factor is its editorial guidelines, which are supposed to ensure that the corporation achieves "the highest standards of due accuracy and impartiality and strive to avoid knowingly and materially misleading our audiences."

Here's a few of the things they say:

"Trust is the foundation of the BBC: we are independent, impartial and honest."

"We will be rigorous in establishing the truth of the story and well informed when explaining it. Our specialist expertise will bring authority and analysis to the complex world in which we live."

"We will be open in acknowledging mistakes when they are made and encourage a culture of willingness to learn from them."


Woe betide the producer or presenter who breaches these guidelines. Unless, that is, they work for Top Gear. If so, they are permitted to drive a coach and horses – or a Hummer H3 - through them whenever they please.

Take, for example, Top Gear's line on electric cars. Casting aside any pretence of impartiality or rigour, it has set out to show that electric cars are useless. If the facts don't fit, it bends them until they do.

It's currently being sued by electric car maker Tesla after claiming, among other allegations, that the Roadster's true range is only 55 miles per charge (rather than 211), and that it unexpectedly ran out of charge. Tesla says "the breakdowns were staged and the statements are untrue". But the BBC keeps syndicating the episode to other networks. So much for "acknowledging mistakes when they are made".

Now it's been caught red-handed faking another trial, in this case of the Nissan LEAF.

Last Sunday, an episode of Top Gear showed Jeremy Clarkson and James May setting off for Cleethorpes in Lincolnshire, 60 miles away. The car unexpectedly ran out of charge when they got to Lincoln, and had to be pushed. They concluded that "electric cars are not the future".

But it wasn't unexpected: Nissan has a monitoring device in the car which transmits information on the state of the battery. This shows that, while the company delivered the car to Top Gear fully charged, the programme-makers ran the battery down before Clarkson and May set off, until only 40% of the charge was left. Moreover, they must have known this, as the electronic display tells the driver how many miles' worth of electricity they have, and the sat-nav tells them if they don't have enough charge to reach their destination. In this case it told them – before they set out on their 60-mile journey – that they had 30 miles' worth of electricity. But, as Ben Webster of the Times reported earlier this week, "at no point were viewers told that the battery had been more than half empty at the start of the trip."

It gets worse. As Webster points out, in order to stage a breakdown in Lincoln, "it appeared that the Leaf was driven in loops for more than 10 miles in Lincoln until the battery was flat."

When Jeremy Clarkson was challenged about this, he admitted that he knew the car had only a small charge before he set out. But, he said: "That's how TV works". Not on the BBC it isn't, or not unless your programme is called Top Gear.

Top Gear's response, by its executive producer Andy Wilman, is a masterpiece of distraction and obfuscation. He insists that the programme wasn't testing the range claims of the vehicles, and nor did it state that the vehicles wouldn't achieve their claimed range. But the point is that it creates the strong impression that the car ran out of juice unexpectedly, leaving the presenters stranded in Lincoln, a city with no public charging points.

Yes, this is an entertainment programme, yes it's larking about, and sometimes it's very funny. But none of this exempts it from the BBC's guidelines and the duty not to fake the facts.

The issue is made all the more potent by the fact that Top Gear has a political agenda. It's a mouthpiece for an extreme form of libertarianism and individualism. It derides attempts to protect the environment, and promotes the kind of driving that threatens other people's peace and other people's lives. It often creates the impression that the rules and restraints which seek to protect us from each other are there to be broken.

This is dangerous territory. Boy racers, in many parts of the countryside, are among the greatest hazards to local people's lives. Where I live, in rural mid-Wales, the roads are treated as race tracks. Many of the young lads who use them compete to see who can clock up the fastest speeds on a given stretch. The consequences are terrible: a series of hideous crashes involving young men and women driving too fast, which kill other people or maim them for life. In the latest horror, just down the road from where I live, a young man bumped another car through a fence and into a reservoir. Four of the five passengers drowned.

Of course I'm not blaming only Top Gear for this, but it plays a major role in creating a comfort zone within which edgy driving is considered acceptable, even admirable. Top Gear's political agenda also persists in stark contradiction to BBC rules on impartiality.

So how does it get away with it? It's simple. It makes the BBC a fortune. Both the 15th and 16th series of Top Gear were among the top five TV programmes sold internationally by BBC Worldwide over the last financial year. Another section of the editorial guidelines tells us that "our audiences should be confident that our decisions are not influenced by outside interests, political or commercial pressures". But in this case we can't be. I suggest that it is purely because of commercial pressures that Top Gear is allowed to rig the evidence, fake its trials, pour petrol over the BBC's standards and put a match to them. The money drives all before it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/aug/05/top-gear-bbc

Online Brian Blessed

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #81 on: August 7, 2011, 09:32:33 pm »
The start of that article is fine, but blaming Top Gear even minutely for boy racers is silly. They've been around Alot longer than Top Gear, and will be around long after it's gone. May aswell blame F1.
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Offline conman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #82 on: August 7, 2011, 09:33:30 pm »
The start of that article is fine, but blaming Top Gear even minutely for boy racers is silly. They've been around Alot longer than Top Gear, and will be around long after it's gone. May aswell blame F1.
he stopped short of blaming them. But, i would agree with the no need to mention them

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #83 on: August 7, 2011, 09:38:25 pm »
he stopped short of blaming them. But, i would agree with the no need to mention them
he does blame the show partially.

"Of course I'm not blaming only Top Gear for this"

it's a shame, because it's decent until then and makes good points, but that ruined it a bit.
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Offline conman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #84 on: August 7, 2011, 09:46:45 pm »
ah, yea, I see now after re reading. But Jeremy is probably Jesus to the boy Racers, and Top Gear is Sunday mass.

Offline keithcun

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #85 on: August 7, 2011, 11:10:58 pm »
I give as much credence to the ramblings of a public schooled, environmental activist and son of two Tory twats as I do to Jeremy Clarkson, both as bad as each other, wouldn't piss on either. At least Clarkson can be entertaining though.
« Last Edit: August 7, 2011, 11:14:01 pm by keithcun »
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #86 on: August 7, 2011, 11:13:51 pm »
I give as much thought to the ramblings of a environmental activist as I do to Jeremy Clarkson, both as bad as each other.
that is an excellent point.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #87 on: August 7, 2011, 11:47:04 pm »
I think anyone that takes Top Gear seriously enough to be wound up by a report they do needs their bumps feeling.

It's an entertainment show. You take it all with a pinch of salt.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #88 on: August 7, 2011, 11:51:32 pm »
I think anyone that takes Top Gear seriously enough to be wound up by a report they do needs their bumps feeling.

It's an entertainment show. You take it all with a pinch of salt.
Trouble is, if you build an electric sports car, then it's not going to last long if people drive it like maniacs.

And that's kind of what they do on top gear.

Maybe their test wasn't the most realistic, but then a sports car should be up to that kind of treatment.

I think the Nissan leaf test was more unfair, the leaf is far better at it's job (a runaround) than the tesla is at it's (high performance sports car).
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #89 on: August 8, 2011, 12:15:37 am »
Trouble is, if you build an electric sports car, then it's not going to last long if people drive it like maniacs.

And that's kind of what they do on top gear.

Maybe their test wasn't the most realistic, but then a sports car should be up to that kind of treatment.

I think the Nissan leaf test was more unfair, the leaf is far better at it's job (a runaround) than the tesla is at it's (high performance sports car).

Thing is that until you can get into an electric car that costs about the same as a normal car and until that car can be driven about for about a week and that car lasts at least 10 years then they won't be accepted.

If you drove it for a week then it needed an overnight charge and it was a reasonable price then I'm sure people would snap them up.
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Offline CheshireDave

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #90 on: August 8, 2011, 07:58:00 am »
I did not see the Top Gear piece (gave up on that shit years ago) but heard about it on Radio 2. Anyway, the problem I see is the charging. I believe you have to charge it for quite a long time, so guessing they recommend you charge it over night and not only because electricity is cheaper over night (?). So you’re going to need a garage to charge it, right? Because people can’t be expected to run a cable through their front window, across the pavement over night if they like many people use on street parking. Another issue is the range. Say you can do 100 miles on a full charge, that’s fine they say if you’re a city dweller taking short journeys and all that. But, don’t a lot of people who live in cities live in flats/apartments and use on street (sometimes the next street along!) parking and that’s even before we consider people who live in high rise flats?
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Offline conman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #91 on: August 8, 2011, 08:34:42 am »
The batteries apparently only last 3-5 years and are about 9k to replace. If this is true, then Topgear should have highlighted this, not faked an issue that doesnt exist.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #92 on: August 8, 2011, 08:39:54 am »
I think anyone that takes Top Gear seriously enough to be wound up by a report they do needs their bumps feeling.

It's an entertainment show. You take it all with a pinch of salt.

In theory yes, but sadly too many people chose to believe all that Clarkson et al as "gospel".
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #93 on: August 8, 2011, 09:08:17 am »
The batteries apparently only last 3-5 years and are about 9k to replace. If this is true, then Topgear should have highlighted this, not faked an issue that doesnt exist.
They did to be fair.


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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #94 on: August 8, 2011, 11:01:35 am »
I do love Top Gear but they clearly have an agenda when it comes to these kinds of cars.  If I was Nissan I'd sue because they clearly faked an issue that didn't exist.

They should just stop doing the environmental stuff and accept what they are.  Everytime they do electric or similar they seem desperate to probe it's pointless and will never work.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #95 on: August 8, 2011, 11:15:35 am »
I do love Top Gear but they clearly have an agenda when it comes to these kinds of cars.  If I was Nissan I'd sue because they clearly faked an issue that didn't exist.

They should just stop doing the environmental stuff and accept what they are.  Everytime they do electric or similar they seem desperate to probe it's pointless and will never work.
Well that's not true....


It did exist, now they may have set the conditions for it to do so, but it did exist.


Fwiw at the current price/ range electric cars are somewhat ridiculous, however if money were no object and you didn't travel far each day then a Nissan leaf might me an option.


If you wanted a sports car, the tesla would never be an option as is is flawed beyond hope.
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Offline greenone

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #96 on: August 8, 2011, 11:19:54 am »
How exactly does the issue not exist? What happens if you have a family emergency on the other end of the country and you have already been driving your electric car that day? You can't just hop in your electric car and drive there. And the point about there being no charging points in most of the country is still valid. Clarkson, May et all HAVE got a downer on electric cars as have many others, but they have also written plenty on the future of motoring being hydrogen. Either way there regardless of if its Hydrogen or Electric there are some questions with no easy answers. I hope the future is hydrogen so I can keep my wankel.
« Last Edit: August 8, 2011, 11:21:26 am by greenone »
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #97 on: August 8, 2011, 11:42:36 am »
How exactly does the issue not exist? What happens if you have a family emergency on the other end of the country and you have already been driving your electric car that day? You can't just hop in your electric car and drive there. And the point about there being no charging points in most of the country is still valid. Clarkson, May et all HAVE got a downer on electric cars as have many others, but they have also written plenty on the future of motoring being hydrogen. Either way there regardless of if its Hydrogen or Electric there are some questions with no easy answers. I hope the future is hydrogen so I can keep my wankel.
Your wankel will be curtains if hydrogen is the future I'm afraid.

Hydrogen is combined with oxygen in a fuel cell to produce electricity.  This powers an electric motor.

Direct combustion of hydrogen is not on the agenda.
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Offline greenone

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #98 on: August 8, 2011, 11:52:25 am »
That's where your wrong. Mazda have hybrid RX-8's running up an down the hydrogen highway in Norway. Fuelcells will be used mainly, but for those still wanting a fix of internal combustion there will be wankels.

http://www.gopctex.com/2011/mazda-introduces-mazda-rx-8-hydrogen-re-in-norway/
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Offline boots

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #99 on: August 8, 2011, 12:00:26 pm »
That's where your wrong. Mazda have hybrid RX-8's running up an down the hydrogen highway in Norway. Fuelcells will be used mainly, but for those still wanting a fix of internal combustion there will be wankels.

http://www.gopctex.com/2011/mazda-introduces-mazda-rx-8-hydrogen-re-in-norway/

Yes but the problem is containment. The fuel tank for hydrogen for combustion is a serious issue. RE The Hindenburg. Hydrogen goes bang in a very quick and powerful way. Seriously if you can solve the hydrogen containment problem you will be a extremely wealthy man. If you think a petrol fuel tank goes up with a bang, just try a tank full of liquid hydrogen. Your wankel may achieve orbit.
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Offline greenone

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #100 on: August 8, 2011, 12:04:52 pm »
and an LPG tank doesn't?
LPG also has a higher energy density than Hydrogen.
« Last Edit: August 8, 2011, 12:07:54 pm by greenone »
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Offline boots

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #101 on: August 8, 2011, 12:11:19 pm »
and an LPG tank doesn't?
LPG also has a higher energy density than Hydrogen.

pmsl

its not just about energy densities. besides why bring lpg into the equation, were talking green.
« Last Edit: August 8, 2011, 12:17:02 pm by boots »
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #102 on: August 8, 2011, 12:32:21 pm »
How exactly does the issue not exist? What happens if you have a family emergency on the other end of the country and you have already been driving your electric car that day? You can't just hop in your electric car and drive there. And the point about there being no charging points in most of the country is still valid. Clarkson, May et all HAVE got a downer on electric cars as have many others, but they have also written plenty on the future of motoring being hydrogen. Either way there regardless of if its Hydrogen or Electric there are some questions with no easy answers. I hope the future is hydrogen so I can keep my wankel.

This is the problem with peoples perceptions.  Electric cars should not being marketed as "road-trip material".  They are aimed at solving the problem that the vast majority (I think it's about 90%) of journeys are short commutes (20 miles or less).  I drive 18,000 miles a year and about 16,000 of those miles are journeys of less than 20 miles.

I always took the idea as being initially aimed at 2-car families.  You would have an electric car for your commutes and your second car for longer journeys. 

That is until the technology moves forward.

There are two big issues for electric cars right now:

1) cost is prohibitive for a what is essentially a car that can't do everything your petrol car can do
2) range is too low to appeal to one-car households

Cost will come down over time and the range will improve as the technology does, but I think the key here is to change peoples perception.  An electric car is quite simply not a long-range vehicle.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #103 on: August 8, 2011, 12:33:35 pm »
That's where your wrong. Mazda have hybrid RX-8's running up an down the hydrogen highway in Norway. Fuelcells will be used mainly, but for those still wanting a fix of internal combustion there will be wankels.

http://www.gopctex.com/2011/mazda-introduces-mazda-rx-8-hydrogen-re-in-norway/
Ooooh...... Didn't know that....
Very interesting
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #104 on: August 8, 2011, 12:36:57 pm »
and an LPG tank doesn't?
LPG also has a higher energy density than Hydrogen.
Hydrogen has a much higher energy density than LPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Mind you, antimatter pisses on any energy density you care to name.

Where did I leave that flux capacitor?
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #105 on: August 8, 2011, 12:43:01 pm »
The batteries apparently only last 3-5 years and are about 9k to replace. If this is true, then Topgear should have highlighted this, not faked an issue that doesnt exist.

I believe they said the batteries last up to 7 years and cost £7grand to replace, but that neglects the fact that costs may well come down over 7 years so they might actually be cheaper to replace.

And given a few weeks earlier that Clarkson bought that nine year old merc for £7grand and the following week had to shell out £1200 to replace its starter motor, it only serves to illustrate the obvious: cars are expensive beasts to run.

Fact is, with an electric car you could easily drive from Liverpool to Manchester and back with ample time to search for parking, every single day.
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Offline greenone

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #106 on: August 8, 2011, 12:43:03 pm »
besides why bring lpg into the equation, were talking green.
Because there are plenty of cars out there that have had a LPG conversion and are effectively carring a bomb around in the boot. At least a car built from the ground up to be hydrogen powered will be far safer.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #107 on: August 8, 2011, 12:49:20 pm »
I believe they said the batteries last up to 7 years and cost £7grand to replace, but that neglects the fact that costs may well come down over 7 years so they might actually be cheaper to replace.

And given a few weeks earlier that Clarkson bought that nine year old merc for £7grand and the following week had to shell out £1200 to replace its starter motor, it only serves to illustrate the obvious: cars are expensive beasts to run.

Fact is, with an electric car you could easily drive from Liverpool to Manchester and back with ample time to search for parking, every single day.
Ok, you say that, but take my laptop....

Started off with about three hours charge a year ago.  A year later and Ive been pretty good at charging it only when fully flat (not perfect though) and it now only lasts for two hours.

So you might start off being able to do it, but in a years time your car might not be able to do it.


Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forwards, battery cars will never be effective as a main stream alternative.
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Offline buzzing

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2012, 12:40:27 pm »
Right, mum n dad need a new car. with petrol prices being mental, they think the prius is the bess bet. Their budget = around 6-9k so it looks like they will only be able to get a 2nd generation one for that

ANyone come up with a better idea than a 2nd generation prius for that price?..also pros n cons if so?
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2012, 08:10:56 am »
Diesel polo?

Will get loads more miles to the gallon than a Prius.
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2023, 06:30:59 pm »
Wife can get a new car via her company scheme now but they want people to choose electric.

A colleague has a BMW X1 and raving about it. They also pay for installation of electric point at home.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2023, 10:58:35 pm »
Wife can get a new car via her company scheme now but they want people to choose electric.

A colleague has a BMW X1 and raving about it. They also pay for installation of electric point at home.

Ix1 and q4 are both great.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2023, 07:54:14 am »
What’s the point of an electric car right now?

When you’ve paid for them, for the charging point, does the electricity being cheaper make up the difference?

If not, what’s the point of them?
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2023, 07:56:24 am »
If not, what’s the point of them?

I think it's something to do with them not burning fossil fuels?
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2023, 08:00:31 am »
I think it's something to do with them not burning fossil fuels?
Yeah, but that’s not true.

They aren’t primary polluters, but the electricity doesn’t appear out of the air.

Right now, there’s no real evidence they pollute less CO2 than a petrol car… so why should I buy one now?
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2023, 08:42:15 am »
Yeah, but that’s not true.

They aren’t primary polluters, but the electricity doesn’t appear out of the air.

Right now, there’s no real evidence they pollute less CO2 than a petrol car… so why should I buy one now?

Even if the cost is the same I think you notice the difference on a weekly basis, I charge mine for about £9 a week now, that's a lot better than going to a garage an putting in £60 of fuel (old Volvo)

But overall I think the cars a just much better, drive smoother, million times quieter, way more tech (if that's your thang)

The tech keeps rolling as well, solid state batteries on the way, flash charging etc

Offline thejbs

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2023, 09:40:12 am »
Yeah, but that’s not true.

They aren’t primary polluters, but the electricity doesn’t appear out of the air.

Right now, there’s no real evidence they pollute less CO2 than a petrol car… so why should I buy one now?

There is evidence: https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/23/electric-cars-produce-less-co2-than-petrol-vehicles-study-confirms

And the cleaner the grid gets, the cleaner EVs get. Most importantly, they’ll contribute to better air quality in cities.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2023, 12:09:29 pm »


but the electricity doesn’t appear out of the air.



in some cases it does and some comes from the sky too.

Electric cars aren't perfect, i dont believe any serious promoter of them pretends that they are BUT they are a step in the right direction.

Its quite interesting reading some of the comments from 2011 about how there is no future for electric cars but the arguments against them are reducing all the time.

Range - not an issue
Charging availibility - improving all the time
Charging time - improving all the time
Battery life - not the issue it was first thought of, with batteries starting to out last the car and doing 200k+ mileage in some instances.

in the next 10 years, the 2nd hand market will be key.

As well as the price coming down of new models, i would love to see more 400 mile+ range cars out there.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2023, 05:27:47 pm »
Yeah, but that’s not true.

They aren’t primary polluters, but the electricity doesn’t appear out of the air.

Right now, there’s no real evidence they pollute less CO2 than a petrol car… so why should I buy one now?

Cleaner air?

Electric vehicles have zero air pollution from combustion.  Obviously, they cause pollution from brake and tyre wear though.  The heavier the vehicle, the greater the pollution from these things.

All the advances in less polluting engines, has somewhat been negated by increasing weight and size of modern cars.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #119 on: June 29, 2023, 05:46:19 pm »
in some cases it does and some comes from the sky too.

Electric cars aren't perfect, i dont believe any serious promoter of them pretends that they are BUT they are a step in the right direction.

Its quite interesting reading some of the comments from 2011 about how there is no future for electric cars but the arguments against them are reducing all the time.

Range - not an issue
Charging availibility - improving all the time
Charging time - improving all the time
Battery life - not the issue it was first thought of, with batteries starting to out last the car and doing 200k+ mileage in some instances.

in the next 10 years, the 2nd hand market will be key.

As well as the price coming down of new models, i would love to see more 400 mile+ range cars out there.

I agree we need to do something, we need to get away from mass ICE, but I'm not convinced electric is the answer.

Charging isn't even good now, there is no way we will be anywhere near ready in 2030 for the ban on sales of ICE cars. I took this in October at Gretna Services, Teslas queueing just to use the chargers, at Christmas it was over 2 hours at South Mimms just to get on a charger.

Also, whats going to be the environmental damage to fit chargers all over the UK, from start to finish of the entire cycle from manufacture to fitting. Also, its 2 million litres of water to mine a ton of lithium, whats the long term damage this is causing to Peru

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