Author Topic: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..  (Read 595021 times)

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17000 on: April 16, 2021, 11:45:30 pm »
You are reading far too much into what I wrote. I meant centre as in literally centre, as in between Tory and LAbour. I literally wrote swing voters...

Yeah but where is the centre?

I'd say that the centre is quite a lot further to the right than it was even 15 years ago.

Does 'the left', 'the centre', 'the right' have meaning in the sense that it used to?

You used to (well in my head anyway :) )   have the broad 'The Far Left' (Trots, Communists and so on), 'The Left' (Greens, Labour), 'The Centre' (Lib Dems and maybe a few others), 'The Right' (Tories etc.), 'The Far Right' (Fascists, NF etc..)


I might be wrong with the classifications, but there seemed to be groups which occupied each area (That went left or right depening on .. stuff....)


Hardline Ultra Remainer.

Online Just Elmo?

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17001 on: April 16, 2021, 11:46:05 pm »
What's your idea to appeal to a group who still overwhelmingly favour Corbyn (+94) and who have an over 50 net point difference with the other groups on Starmer and Nandy? I've seen dismissals of the idea that such a group exists, but YouGov suggests otherwise.

I'm trying to make the point to you that in my view the best thing Labour can do to make themselves more electable, is to unite the party so you are all fighting on the same front. That involves taking on arguments and policies from all sides of the party even if you disagree with some of them. Taking on one position on an issue might not be popular with the swing voters, but if it helps the party put forward a united front, it could still be a net gain.

I absolutely acknowledge that there are a group of people that probably won't get on board no matter what, but I suspect that is actually a pretty small number, and there is a group on the other side that are the same.

It's hard to argue with you about poll numbers because you keep giving numbers without linking the actual polls with the questions asked.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17002 on: April 16, 2021, 11:49:05 pm »
I'm trying to make the point to you that in my view the best thing Labour can do to make themselves more electable, is to unite the party so you are all fighting on the same front. That involves taking on arguments and policies from all sides of the party even if you disagree with some of them. Taking on one position on an issue might not be popular with the swing voters, but if it helps the party put forward a united front, it could still be a net gain.

I absolutely acknowledge that there are a group of people that probably won't get on board no matter what, but I suspect that is actually a pretty small number, and there is a group on the other side that are the same.

It's hard to argue with you about poll numbers because you keep giving numbers without linking the actual polls with the questions asked.

Here ya go. Knock yourself out.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/icjepi77jw/Internal_Labour_Member_Release_210329_W.pdf
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17003 on: April 16, 2021, 11:49:10 pm »
Yeah but where is the centre?

I'd say that the centre is quite a lot further to the right than it was even 15 years ago.

Does 'the left', 'the centre', 'the right' have meaning in the sense that it used to?

You used to (well in my head anyway :) )   have the broad 'The Far Left' (Trots, Communists and so on), 'The Left' (Greens, Labour), 'The Centre' (Lib Dems and maybe a few others), 'The Right' (Tories etc.), 'The Far Right' (Fascists, NF etc..)


I might be wrong with the classifications, but there seemed to be groups which occupied each area (That went left or right depening on .. stuff....)

It doesn't really matter to my point.

It is often said that Labour need to win back Tory voters to win elections - these are the voters I mean. You could say that the fact they are hypothetically willing to swing between Labour and Tories makes them by some definitions 'centre' voters.

Online Just Elmo?

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17004 on: April 16, 2021, 11:59:40 pm »
Here ya go. Knock yourself out.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/icjepi77jw/Internal_Labour_Member_Release_210329_W.pdf

Right so as was said by Sian, RLB only got 25% of the vote. A lot of Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer.

Given his net approval has dropped from 50% to ~35%, and there isn't much room for decline amongst Starmer and Nandy voters, I can only assume approval from them was higher (can't find a similar earlier poll), which would indicate they can be appealed to.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17005 on: April 17, 2021, 12:01:25 am »
Right so as was said by Sian, RLB only got 25% of the vote. A lot of Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer.

Given his net approval has dropped from 50% to ~35%, and there isn't much room for decline amongst Starmer and Nandy voters, I can only assume approval from them was higher (can't find a similar earlier poll), which would indicate they can be appealed to.

The numbers suggest they would prefer a return to Corbyn (+94).
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17006 on: April 17, 2021, 12:05:08 am »
The numbers suggest they would prefer a return to Corbyn (+94).

That just means you need to find a way to appeal to them, otherwise you just carry on this endless cycle of bickering and infighting, which is not an electable look.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17007 on: April 17, 2021, 12:26:11 am »
That just means you need to find a way to appeal to them, otherwise you just carry on this endless cycle of bickering and infighting, which is not an electable look.

As has been shown again and again, that wing is satisfied with nothing less than specifically what would repel voters who deemed Corbyn to be the biggest single reason for not voting Labour. They are determined to win the left with culture wars that play well among the left. But which strengthen the general electorate's distaste for what the Labour party has become.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17008 on: April 17, 2021, 01:14:35 am »
As has been shown again and again, that wing is satisfied with nothing less than specifically what would repel voters who deemed Corbyn to be the biggest single reason for not voting Labour. They are determined to win the left with culture wars that play well among the left. But which strengthen the general electorate's distaste for what the Labour party has become.

I’d be intrigued to see numbers on how many people who you would categorise as “Corbyn loyalists” remain in the party at this point. Such data almost certainly isn’t available but I’d be genuinely surprised if they made up even 10% of the membership.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17009 on: April 17, 2021, 08:45:48 am »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TSC

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17010 on: April 17, 2021, 08:46:44 am »
The man appointed by Johnson to chair the inquiry into the Greensill scandal is on the board of a private bank that has close ties to the Tories.  The bank’s board includes former Government staffers. 

Another cover-up incoming?

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17011 on: April 17, 2021, 08:48:41 am »
The man appointed by Johnson to chair the inquiry into the Greensill scandal is on the board of a private bank that has close ties to the Tories.  The bank’s board includes former Government staffers. 

Another cover-up incoming?
Do they even need a cover up? If they don’t like the outcome they can just ignore it.

Although, I suspect that might not be the case, Johnson doesn’t like Cameron and would be happy to throw him under a bus.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17012 on: April 17, 2021, 01:05:26 pm »
Quote
Neil Oliver to join Andrew Neil's GB News in 'move towards news commentary'

NEIL Oliver will be joining the new television channel GB News, it has been announced.

The television presenter will host a new weekly current affairs and interview programme.

Oliver’s show will focus on “the people from all walks of life who make Britain great”, according to the announcement put out by GB News.

The author claimed that debate in the UK had been “stifled” and that the new channel “feels like opening a window and letting in some fresh air”.

The channel, which is due to launch later this year, is chaired by former BBC journalist Andrew Neil.

READ MORE: Andrew Neil's channel GB News announces signings to political reporting team

In its press release, GB News said the move marked a “further move towards news commentary” for the Coast presenter.

Commenting on joining GB News, Oliver said: "My career has always been driven by my fascination about people, whether it's trying to understand ancient people through archaeology or living ones through journalism.

"Debate in this country has been stifled for so long that GB News feels like opening a window and letting some fresh air, fresh perspectives and fresh voices.

"I never imagined my career would take this turn but I'm hugely excited that it has."

Oliver echoed that final sentiment sharing the news with his Twitter followers. He wrote simply: “Exciting times.”

The archaeologist joins former Guido Fawkes and Telegraph writer Tom Harwood, former ITV news presenter Alastair Stewart, and former Sky News presenter Colin Brazier on the GB News team.

The channel will target Conservative-leaning audiences.

Neil will present a nightly news programme on the channel containing “Wokewatch” and “Mediawatch” segments, but insisted GB News will conform to Ofcom rules on impartiality.

Critics have said the channel will aim to capitalise on the “culture wars” in the UK, offering comparisons to Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News in the US.

Figures at GB News, including Neil, have rejected the comparison. They say the channel will be aimed at the “vast number of British people who feel underserved and unheard” by the existing media in the UK.

Oliver was the president of the National Trust for Scotland until he stepped down in September 2020.

Although the presenter claimed he had always planned to step down at that time, the announcement came just days after he was embroiled in a scandal involving fellow TV personality David Starkey.

In an interview with Vote Leave’s Darren Grimes, the historian said that slavery “was not genocide otherwise there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or Britain”.

Oliver had previously commented that he “loved” Starkey on a promotional tweet sent before the controversial interview aired.

He was also found to have “liked” another post which was widely seen as being anti-Black Lives Matter.

Former ITV man and Oliver’s GB News colleague Alastair Stewart left his original broadcaster due to “errors of judgement in [his] use of social media” which “breached” their editorial guidelines.

The news was linked to a scandal surrounding a tweet in which Stewart had appeared to compare a black man to an “angry ape”.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19239770.neil-oliver-join-andrew-neils-gb-news-move-towards-news-commentary/

Another racist gammon joining GB News.


Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17014 on: April 17, 2021, 01:42:27 pm »


ha ha.

It reminds me of a story I read recently (where? God knows) of a Chinese (possibly Russian) bloke who was applying for Irish citizenship and, in a burst a patriotic enthusiasm, filled out the forms in Gaelic. The Irish Home Office sent them back and said they didn't understand the language, could he do them again in English!
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17015 on: April 17, 2021, 02:21:20 pm »
Really dislike the word gammon.  It’s as bad as woke or Karen...

Can we not use it?  It’s reductive.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17016 on: April 17, 2021, 05:28:38 pm »
Those who identify themselves principally as social conservatives are what we'd call right wing cranks. Trumpists and their like, who get their kicks from owning the libs. They will never be satisfied with anything that might satisfy those who are liberals.

But what about those who are primarily interested in the economic left, who may be socially liberal or conservative but who don't primarily identify themselves as such?

Again, I don't believe there is a difference between the willingness to compromise of those voters and those you refer to as the "liberal left", yet it seems you, and the type of people who write opinion pieces in the media, only admonish the latter.

Someone who claims to dislike "identity politics" is obviously less likely to identify as a social conservative but it doesn't mean they're not in practice. Labour can make big promises about increasing the tax rate applied to corporations or prioritising British businesses but if Labour is still doing what that voter perceives as "woke" things, then they're still not going to vote for the party. Good luck finding a piece in The Times calling that "purity politics" though.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17017 on: April 17, 2021, 07:31:46 pm »
Again, I don't believe there is a difference between the willingness to compromise of those voters and those you refer to as the "liberal left", yet it seems you, and the type of people who write opinion pieces in the media, only admonish the latter.

Someone who claims to dislike "identity politics" is obviously less likely to identify as a social conservative but it doesn't mean they're not in practice. Labour can make big promises about increasing the tax rate applied to corporations or prioritising British businesses but if Labour is still doing what that voter perceives as "woke" things, then they're still not going to vote for the party. Good luck finding a piece in The Times calling that "purity politics" though.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My point is that prioritising socio-cultural issues as a party of opposition repels those who do not already identify as liberals. And as we've seen so many times, when there is not a compelling argument for voting Labour, English voters default to Tory. Do you disagree with either of these points?

BTW, I identify as a liberal. I am not repelled by the party of opposition supporting liberal issues. But I can see others, who do not identify as liberals, seeing these antics as reason for not voting Labour, and I despair. I see them talk about issues that are traditional Labour strongpoints, but they see Labour, and specifically the Corbyn wing, as alien, and repugnant.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17018 on: April 17, 2021, 08:46:51 pm »
Not sure what you mean by that to be honest.

Any chance you can break it down for me?

A succinct way to describe every nonsensical thread title you dream up when you’re a few ales deep.

Offline Wild Romany Boy

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17019 on: April 18, 2021, 09:14:21 am »
I don't know how anyone can blame the 'Corbyn section' of the Labour party for anything much right now, but it's a handy scapegoat.

These are tough times, and the centrists have no solution because they are not addressing the very real issues of right now. Blair did in 1997. Starmer, still very new to politics, is not showing vision at all. And the excuses for the section of the party leading him, have long since worn thin.

He's had an easy ride, and had a good initial six months, now he's got to start motoring. Being a more competent version of the tories isn't go to fly.

And, if he doesn't get ahead, Nandy will be much worse. Hard to see where the next leader comes from to be honest.

And I voted for him, so I am much to blame. :butt

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17020 on: April 18, 2021, 09:22:51 am »
I don't know how anyone can blame the 'Corbyn section' of the Labour party for anything much right now, but it's a handy scapegoat.

These are tough times, and the centrists have no solution because they are not addressing the very real issues of right now. Blair did in 1997. Starmer, still very new to politics, is not showing vision at all. And the excuses for the section of the party leading him, have long since worn thin.

He's had an easy ride, and had a good initial six months, now he's got to start motoring. Being a more competent version of the tories isn't go to fly.

And, if he doesn't get ahead, Nandy will be much worse. Hard to see where the next leader comes from to be honest.

And I voted for him, so I am much to blame. :butt

The Corbyn loyalists are forever trying to frame the debate on the left in such a way that they claim to represent the true left, whereas those who disagree are traitors to the left. This MO should be recognised for what it is.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline TSC

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17021 on: April 18, 2021, 09:39:57 am »
Rachel Reeves and Ed Davey on Marr this morning talking about Tory sleaze/corruption re Cameron, Hancock, Sunek, etc.

So how does Marr respond?  Of course he asks about their respective opinions on ‘sleaze’ (in Marr’s opinion) within Labour and Lib Dem’s, attempting to refer to lobbying activity years (decades) ago.  Of course the guests in exasperation rebuked Marr (no lobbying of government ministers took place back then) and tried to keep focus on current issues.  Marr didn’t like that approach so repeatedly interrupted both when they responded.

But Marr’s not biased.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17022 on: April 18, 2021, 09:43:02 am »
Rachel Reeves and Ed Davey on Marr this morning talking about Tory sleaze/corruption re Cameron, Hancock, Sunek, etc.

So how does Marr respond?  Of course he asks about their respective opinions on ‘sleaze’ (in Marr’s opinion) within Labour and Lib Dem’s, attempting to refer to lobbying activity years (decades) ago.  Of course the guests in exasperation rebuked Marr (no lobbying of government ministers took place back then) and tried to keep focus on current issues.  Marr didn’t like that approach so repeatedly interrupted both when they responded.

But Marr’s not biased.

I think of Marr in the same light as I think of a lot if PL referees - extremely incompetent but not part of a conspiracy.

Marr should have gone years ago.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17023 on: April 18, 2021, 09:44:45 am »
The Corbyn loyalists are forever trying to frame the debate on the left in such a way that they claim to represent the true left, whereas those who disagree are traitors to the left. This MO should be recognised for what it is.

You’re not engaging with the post you’ve quoted at all here. It’s like you’ve got an auto-reply set up.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17024 on: April 18, 2021, 09:52:31 am »
Ed Davey is shite.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17025 on: April 18, 2021, 10:26:45 am »
You’re not engaging with the post you’ve quoted at all here. It’s like you’ve got an auto-reply set up.

I was explaining why it's important to continue highlighting what the Corbyn loyalists are doing, but I suppose it's better for them to claim that the argument doesn't exist, or as previously claimed (and disproved by the YouGov poll), that these Corbyn loyalists don't exist. If people can convince others left of centre that Corbyn loyalists do not exist, or that their modus operandi does not exist, then it's easier for them to push that line of debate.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline So... Howard Phillips

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17026 on: April 18, 2021, 10:26:54 am »
Ed Davey is shite.

SIR Ed Davey to you, churl.

Offline ljycb

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17027 on: April 18, 2021, 11:55:11 am »
I was explaining why it's important to continue highlighting what the Corbyn loyalists are doing, but I suppose it's better for them to claim that the argument doesn't exist, or as previously claimed (and disproved by the YouGov poll), that these Corbyn loyalists don't exist. If people can convince others left of centre that Corbyn loyalists do not exist, or that their modus operandi does not exist, then it's easier for them to push that line of debate.

I know Corbyn loyalists exist, but it’s an ever-decreasing number and nowhere near as consequential to Labour’s electoral prospects as you like to make out. In fact, I would say there is a growing emergence on the left of people who look at those who remain in the party on a “Stay and Fight”/“Reinstate Corbyn” platform and find it quite cringeworthy and counterproductive.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17028 on: April 18, 2021, 06:26:22 pm »
This sleaze & corruption scandal appears to be growing by the hour.  Don’t know how long government can play this one down.  8 separate investigations now ongoing.

Tories would do well to remember it was ‘sleaze’ that contributed towards their defeat in 97.

Comical if government ‘leaks’ against Cameron comes back to bite them.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17029 on: April 19, 2021, 03:47:24 pm »
Really dislike the word gammon.  It’s as bad as woke or Karen...

Can we not use it?  It’s reductive.

It's terribly accurate, though  :-[
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " 
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17030 on: April 19, 2021, 05:14:30 pm »
US neo-Nazi group should be banned in UK, home secretary says

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56803647


'Himmler' Patel must be scared of a little competition.

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " 
Isaac Asimov

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17031 on: April 19, 2021, 05:55:42 pm »
Anyone see Starmer get kicked out of a pub :lmao the landlord did say Labour are flat out failing to his face but the world is a shambles right now
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 05:58:54 pm by Studgotelli »

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17032 on: April 19, 2021, 06:00:04 pm »
Anyone see Starmer get kicked out of a pub :lmao the landlord did say Labour are flat out failing to his face but the world is a shambles right now
an anti lockdown type complaining that Starmer didn’t comparing against lockdown.

Not pleasant

I get that he’d had a very tough year though
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17033 on: April 19, 2021, 06:10:59 pm »
an anti lockdown type complaining that Starmer didn’t comparing against lockdown.

Not pleasant

I get that he’d had a very tough year though

He did have a point tbf but yeah society is a big shitshow atm very concerning for the future.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17034 on: April 19, 2021, 06:45:10 pm »
He's a covid denier who was unhappy with Starmer not opposing lockdown restrictions, I don't think he had any point whatsoever.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17035 on: April 19, 2021, 07:42:39 pm »
He's a covid denier who was unhappy with Starmer not opposing lockdown restrictions, I don't think he had any point whatsoever.

Love to know who is coming up with this visits for Starmer after the Jesus House fiasco.

Almost like setting him up to fail.

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17036 on: April 19, 2021, 07:58:23 pm »
Love to know who is coming up with this visits for Starmer after the Jesus House fiasco.

Almost like setting him up to fail.
I think he just went down the  high street in Bath
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17037 on: April 19, 2021, 08:57:20 pm »
He's a covid denier who was unhappy with Starmer not opposing lockdown restrictions, I don't think he had any point whatsoever.

Calling Starmer shit is fair points tbf

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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17038 on: April 19, 2021, 09:55:58 pm »
Calling Starmer shit is fair points tbf
For not opposing lockdown?

No, it’s absurd
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Isn’t this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17039 on: April 19, 2021, 10:09:18 pm »
For not opposing lockdown?

No, it’s absurd

It wasn't a Weatherspoon's by any chance?