Topic: Season 2007/8 - Where did it all go wrong?

[Greg]

Difficult to say - but I think it's due to Rafa playing an unsettled team at the start of the season. By that I mean he changed too many players (in my eyes, for the sake of rotation) and failed to settle on a winning formation.

We started well by beating Aston Villa and then keeping the same team for Chelsea. But then he started making changes for the Sunderland and Derby games without letting the team gel as a unit. Although we won those 2 games, we had lost momentum and we ended up drawing at Portsmouth in the next game. Followed by a draw at home to Birmingham, and then Spurs.

You can see the benefits of keeping the main players were possible and keeping the same formation. We have been as good as anyone in the last 3 months.

This theory can be shot down but can't be disproved.

So for next season, I hope Rafa plays a settled team and a settled formation for the first 10 games. Once we've got momentum and we've gelled, then it's safe to start making a few changes.

[Meako1977]

Difficult to say - but I think it's due to Rafa playing an unsettled team at the start of the season. By that I mean he changed too many players (in my eyes, for the sake of rotation) and failed to settle on a winning formation.

We started well by beating Aston Villa and then keeping the same team for Chelsea. But then he started making changes for the Sunderland and Derby games without letting the team gel as a unit. Although we won those 2 games, we had lost momentum and we ended up drawing at Portsmouth in the next game. Followed by a draw at home to Birmingham, and then Spurs.

You can see the benefits of keeping the main players were possible and keeping the same formation. We have been as good as anyone in the last 3 months.

This theory can be shot down but can't be disproved.

So for next season, I hope Rafa plays a settled team and a settled formation for the first 10 games. Once we've got momentum and we've gelled, then it's safe to start making a few changes.

Not sure what your saying is correct. I agree to an extent about keeping the core set of players in the team for the majority of games but the biggest issue this year has not been rotation but a lack of real quality indepth. When we have wanted to rest either key players we have struggled to replace them and keep the quality in the side.

I hope this is the one thing that we look to change for next season. My biggest worry is that we dont change this and get a serious injury that ends are title hopes due to lack of quality replacement.

[abhred]

Just to add, Everton, Villa are not getting closer. We finished 11 points ahead of them, and 16 ahead of Villa. That's a huge gap.

[stjohns]

Agger and Alonso both picking up long term injuries in the same week. At the time it meant losing half the spine of the team in one hit.

[Greg]

Not sure what your saying is correct. I agree to an extent about keeping the core set of players in the team for the majority of games but the biggest issue this year has not been rotation but a lack of real quality indepth. When we have wanted to rest either key players we have struggled to replace them and keep the quality in the side.

I hope this is the one thing that we look to change for next season. My biggest worry is that we dont change this and get a serious injury that ends are title hopes due to lack of quality replacement.

I think we are both in agreement to an extent. I would be happy with a bit of rotation if the players were coming in were as good as the ones going out. But we all know they're not - I'm talking about players like Voronin, Sissoko, Crouch and Riise for example. Whenever they got a game, it changed our style of play too much - it wasn't just a case of a different player. Crouch or Voronin instead of Torres meant no pace and we couldn't really play 4-2-3-1. With Sissoko playing, we were more defensive and would lose the ball more. And with Riise playing, we were just limited.

I think we'll have better players next year. But if we don't have better players, it's important that Rafa doesn't rely on these "less talented" players for diffcult away games like he had done this year.

[Callaghan.]

Meako1977, I can't think of anything funny to say but I come in peace I promise.

It's just that all you've done is worked out that we're 11 points off the top, and then found 12 points where we could improve.

You've needed to change 6 results, I've only changed 3. You've gained an extra 12 points, I've only gained 8.

I was taking it for granted that everyone knew that if we turned 6 draws into wins, we would get 12 extra points.

You would have thought we would have had to have beaten the top teams to win the league.

Why? You've easily found 12 extra points and you haven't even mentioned Reading and West Ham away or the other 5 away draws.

[nidgemo]

yanks out first followed by parry
dic in, rafa stay, winning talent in, rotation out
no more mr nice, no more draws winning mentality belief , kill off teams

With respect, if you want "rotation out", to "kill off teams" and "no more draws" then why do you want Rafa to stay?

[nidgemo]

Nidge i've got a question - do you think the period towards the end of the season where we played the same 4-2-3-1 formation with the same players (injury permitting) is evidence that Rafa is actually able to change his philosophies? Or do you think he is still as steadfast to his policies as when he first arrived here?

I'm not sure he'll ever change. He kept a settled side towards the end because we weren't, in his own words, playing in as many competitions.

I have no doubt, come November time next season, the bizzare decisions, dropping players in form etc, will be back with a vengence.

[Art Vandelay]

Simple, the top two have better players than us at the moment.

[Meako1977]

Meako1977, I can't think of anything funny to say but I come in peace I promise.

It's just that all you've done is worked out that we're 11 points off the top, and then found 12 points where we could improve.

You've needed to change 6 results, I've only changed 3. You've gained an extra 12 points, I've only gained 8.

I was taking it for granted that everyone knew that if we turned 6 draws into wins, we would get 12 extra points.

Why? You've easily found 12 extra points and you haven't even mentioned Reading and West Ham away or the other 5 away draws.

I didnt mention Reading or West Ham as we lost these games and its harder to justify changing losses into wins.

I agree that you have less games to take the points from but realistically at the start of the season did you expect us to take 3 points each off the top three? I named those games because they where games where I would have expected us to pick up three points and we only drew. I think the majority would have put these down as winnable games at the start of the season.

If you could combine both then we should be there or thereabouts next season. Winning the games expected and taking points off the top three. Then again if my aunt had bollocks.................!

[grego]

for me its simple, we lack the creativity and killer attacking instinct to finish teams off.

as the first poster shows, we're a solid unit but there were too many stalemates (especially at home) and leads that were lost from winning positions.

points tally against arse, man u and chelsea teams is also still not good. however, if we'd beaten man u home and away we'd have finished above them. small margins.

[Greg]

I'm not sure he'll ever change. He kept a settled side towards the end because we weren't, in his own words, playing in as many competitions.

I have no doubt, come November time next season, the bizzare decisions, dropping players in form etc, will be back with a vengence.

I'm not so sure. I know that's what he said, but he must be pleasantly surprised at how things have gone so well. It's gone so well, that it must have had an influence on him. He froze out players like Crouch, Voronin, Riise, Pennant and Kewell - and that surprised me (in a good way).

I saw your rant that you wrote about 5 months ago - and I agreed with nearly all of it, if not all of it. But something tells me that next season, he will have less players to rotate, and there will be more quality in the squad.

I think that Rafa will learn his lessons from last season. If he doesn't learn his lessons then I will lose patience with him too. But given his impriovement since the new year, I think it's worth us all keeping open minds about next season and all getting behind him.

[KOTP]

we all know rafa isnt going to change his rotation policy next season when we get to november time and the games start coming thick and fast rotation will be back, which is what is going to cost us again, as we dont have the quality to rotate in the majority of positions.

full backs we have one decent full back for both positions but struggle with rotation for them (riise been off form for 2 seasons now and finnan although still a decent player i think age is catchin up quickly)

centre backs, no probs with roation there

centre mid, if we are still playing 4231, then we should be ok with masch , lucas, and either alonso or barry but wouldnt mind seeing an experienced player signed for extra cover

wingers, well we dont have any quality on the right in the first choice team let alone as cover kuyt is a decent player who works his socks off but 1, he aint a winger, 2 i just dont think the lad has the qaulity to be first choice in a title winning team a rotation striker he might just make it but first choice never, on the left we have babel who was impressed me considering his age and his first season in the prem i think the stats show that he has done better than what ronaldo done in his first season, but would still like another left sided player in.

gerrard we have no back up for that position just off the front that he plays.

striker without torres again its simple to see that we have nobody who can come in for him.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

Not enough attacking intent, resulting in too many draws. We dont score enough away from home.  Also two fixtures that we need to win next season. We need to beat the mancs, home and away, no excuses. Shit, if just that alone had happened this season the table would have made for more pleasant reading.

Next season get a settled back four and let the rest fucking go for it, goals goals goals.

[markmywords]

we all know rafa isnt going to change his rotation policy next season when we get to november time and the games start coming thick and fast rotation will be back, which is what is going to cost us again, as we dont have the quality to rotate in the majority of positions.

full backs we have one decent full back for both positions but struggle with rotation for them (riise been off form for 2 seasons now and finnan although still a decent player i think age is catchin up quickly)

centre backs, no probs with roation there

centre mid, if we are still playing 4231, then we should be ok with masch , lucas, and either alonso or barry but wouldnt mind seeing an experienced player signed for extra cover

wingers, well we dont have any quality on the right in the first choice team let alone as cover kuyt is a decent player who works his socks off but 1, he aint a winger, 2 i just dont think the lad has the qaulity to be first choice in a title winning team a rotation striker he might just make it but first choice never, on the left we have babel who was impressed me considering his age and his first season in the prem i think the stats show that he has done better than what ronaldo done in his first season, but would still like another left sided player in.

gerrard we have no back up for that position just off the front that he plays.

striker without torres again its simple to see that we have nobody who can come in for him.

problem is no team has the ability to rotate one-for-one across their team

Who will replace ronaldo, rooney, or scholes at Man U?

If ManU can't entice world class players to understudy for ronaldo, what chance do we?

what we need is more quality in the 1st eleven so that when Gerrard/Carra,Agger, Torres are out we have other matchwinners in the 1st eleven who can get the job done, like ManU have with Giggs, tevez, and maybe saha

you can't have steady eddies, makeweights and guys doing a good job under the circumstance like Kuyt, Babbel and co in the starting 11 and expect to win titles, currently

There is no way will will recruit 11 world class players and have 8-12 world class players sat on the bench ready to step in if Gerrard picks up an injury 6-8 months into the season

[jiky]

JC giving  away more penalties than the whole United team. Cost  us  points,to an extent. He along woth xabi and riise having below average seasons hurt the momentum ,too i think. Having 3 first teamers off-form will not win you a championship.

[Fat Scouser]

Season 2oo7/08 - Where did it all go wrong?
Errm....
Er....
Er.... we kicked off against Villa back in August?

[CHOPPER]

Roataion is the only answer to the problem or infact the cause of the problem
we all know it but this season alot infact to many people have fell behind
the off field fiasco to point the finger at and blame
this is not the case

In the PL looking at our last three seasons they are almost identical
in the way that thay have panned themselves out
starts have been o.k to quite good we then hit a bad spell
then a really good spell we continue to play well whilst dropping stupid points in games 
that should have been well sown up then come january were looking at the table 
and we are behind on points and were others go on a winning streak
we faulter and come the end of Feb early March were pretty much out of the title race
and proves that this sytem doesn't work for the PL

At this Feb stage our performances though still faultering
we start to look stronger and we continualy get stronger which is great for  us in the CL
as the rest have not rotated as much as us, so there players are more fatigued and tired
we become the stongest and in my opinion the toughest team in the CL
out of the last two CL semi's we've enterd we have looked the strongets team of the four
and probably the team everyone wants to avoid from the quaters onwards
the benefits of this are laid inour early season rotation and prove the system works for Europe

The boss has two choices to make he either relaxas on his policy
of early season rotation and plays a more settled team giving us a
greater chance in the PL to forgo the late season strenghth in the CL
or
He stays with this same policy which lends itself more to an end of season run
rather than staying in the PL title race through the season
I'd like to think he'll change his policy so we can make a better fist of it in the league

simply ask ourselves what do you want to win more the PL or the CL
if it's the CL then we must not change a single thing
if it's the PL then the rotation must stop early on in the season


 
 

[sinnermichael]

in the past we've struggled scoring goals. this season it's been the other way around in that we've scored goals for fun but haven't defended as well as we normally do, mainly due to not having a settled back four. individual mistakes and bad defedning have cost us points against the likes of wigan, west ham and tottenham.

we were right in the mix around the turn of the year but we had a disastrous run starting with a draw away at man city when we should have won. we followed this up with draws against wigan, boro and villa and a defeat at west ham which put us out of the race altogether.

[CHOPPER]

Part of the problem is that rotation shouldn't be an issue. Rotation has merely exposed the cracks in our squad and shown many of the back-ups to be sadly lacking. Rafa was well within his rights to rotate, he wasn't to know that when he did half of the dog and duck would come out of the tunnel and play for us.

Your right rotation shouldn't be a problem , but it is
it's not that he rotates, it's the amount of rotation and it's frequency that unsetlles us
as for our dog and duckers, sadly he bought them

[Kopite1971]

I think losing Agger and Alonso played a big part in our loss of form mid winter.  It's strange really but losing to Reading away seemed to have a much bigger affect than it should have done.  I'm sure the behind the scenes problems had an impact too, combined with unsettled fans at matches and the need to protest (which i agree was needed, i even took part myself).

The biggest thing though was this team are young and still developing and if they could have turned those home draws into wins well then you'd really see a difference plus if only we can stop losing to Man U2 draws would have given us 80 points and them 83

[Sinos]

Simple, the top two have better players than us at the moment.

While there is some truth in that the major difference between the others and ourselves was that magic ingredient confidence.

[Fordy]

Reading Away

Rafa not making sure the team goes for wins instead of draws.

Not being able to break down teams.

Having faith in players like Kuyt when clearly off form and should of been dropped.

Players not raising their game and counting on Gerrard and Torres all the time.

Defenders not chipping in with enough goals.

Rotation.

Not enough match winners

The owners.

Parry/Moores

Us fans - Not giving enough support at times. Expecting us to win each match and not treating league matches like Champions League matches.

The Champions league - Rafa wanting to win this Cup over the PL.

Rafa.

Everyone is to blame for our average season. Next season has to be better. For me only Gerrard, Mash and Torres can hold their head up high.

We finished 11 points off top but 9 points from 5th. So these who think we are not far off from winning the league need to wake up. This is a massive summer transfer period for Rafa. He needs to get it right and we have to go all out in the PL next year. Attack teams for 90mins and have a never give up. Utd win the PL due to this and we need to copy them on this front. Rafa has to play his best team week in week out.

[Garstonite]

We finished 11 points off top but 9 points from 5th.

It was actually 11 off both.

[CHOPPER]

I hear John the washer-upper is a handy left-mid...

Oh you mean John washer riinser
I've heard he's thrown the towel in and is doing one , thankfully

[Fordy]

It was actually 11 off both.

Yeah your right but that mean we're no closer to winning the league than being 5th.

All in all we have to improve its as simple as that.

[Garstonite]

Yeah your right but that mean we're no closer to winning the league than being 5th.

All in all we have to improve its as simple as that.

I'd say we've dropped more silly points than we have gained points from games we don't deserve to, so I disagree with you on that particular statement.

[Fuzion6]

Problem this year was mutli fold imo as below:

1) Poor performance in the big PL games. We didn't get the results we needed against the other big 4 teams (almost the opposite of the Houllier days when we would beat the top teams but lose to the mediocre teams)

2) Lack of quality / creativity from wide areas - is it just me or does this problem come up every year?

3) We always end the season brilliantly (squad rotation keeping guys fresh?) but we had a really rocky spell Nov - Jan.

[Matt Rankin]

drastic rotation.

[Art Vandelay]

While there is some truth in that the major difference between the others and ourselves was that magic ingredient confidence.

Confidence comes from knowing you have better players.

I think we're at a similar level to Arsenal, but they slightly overachieved and we slightly underachieved this season.  Our main problem being the points we dropped at home to sides we'd normally expect to beat....particularly galling are those draws where we scored first.

[Raul!]

Once and for all, too many draws is not the cause of what went wrong, it is the outcome.  Lazy people saying that what went wrong was too many draws.

[Fordy]

I'd say we've dropped more silly points than we have gained points from games we don't deserve to, so I disagree with you on that particular statement.

We didnt beat any of the top 3 clubs and when your dropping points against reading, Brum for example they is cause for concern and rather than a positive out look.

[Art Vandelay]

Most of the draws were down to poor defending, not from an unwillingness to go full out attack for every game.....for some reason (injuries/poor form/bad luck) we were unable to close out games like we've done previously under Rafa.

[markmywords]

Confidence comes from knowing you have better players.

I think we're at a similar level to Arsenal, but they slightly overachieved and we slightly underachieved this season.  Our main problem being the points we dropped at home to sides we'd normally expect to beat....particularly galling are those draws where we scored first.

I think ARS were a better team overall

We are better in central defence and in goal, probably equal in centre midfield, they are better elsewhere

[nidgemo]

Once and for all, too many draws is not the cause of what went wrong, it is the outcome.  Lazy people saying that what went wrong was too many draws.

Exactly what I was about to point out - that what many people are saying are simply consequences - not what went wrong in itself.

For example - us drawing too many games is what cost us - but it's not what went wrong - what went wrong was what CAUSED us to draw too many - resting top scoring strikers in form, rotating wildly in the period we drew all those games, being too defensive and falling into protect the lead mode once we got one rather than trying to increase it...

[nidgemo]

Most of the draws were down to poor defending, not from an unwillingness to go full out attack for every game.....for some reason (injuries/poor form/bad luck) we were unable to close out games like we've done previously under Rafa.

Question is - if we'd continued attacking in games at 1-0 up, (ie - the tactics that got us in front) would we have been

a. in defensive positions to make those mistakes
b. more than 1-0 up anyway, and not leaving ourselves in a position where losing one goal costs 2 points...

I'd say yes for both.

[Art Vandelay]

Question is - if we'd continued attacking in games at 1-0 up, (ie - the tactics that got us in front) would we have been

a. in defensive positions to make those mistakes
b. more than 1-0 up anyway, and not leaving ourselves in a position where losing one goal costs 2 points...

I'd say yes for both.

I think the majority of those games we did carry on attacking.....not gung-ho, perhaps, but we always created more than enough chances to win.....but then stupid mistakes at the back, collectively and individually, let the opposition back into the game.  Our inability to convert a high number of chances has been here for a while, but this season we had a spell or two where the defence was uncharacteristically iffy.

[hesbighesred]

You simply can't ignore the off field problems.

The sh1t really hit the fan just before the Man Utd game, and just after a massive blow against reading, where we were robbed by no less than 3 penalty claims going against us (that simply would not happen to Man U or Chelsea, just look at how many penalties torres has won this season...0. No way he wouldn't have one some in a chelsea or man u shirt).

At 3-1, Rafa was then forced to compound that blow by taking off our best players, because he knew he WOULD be sacked without CL progression.

It's easy to say it doesn't affect players, but also ludicrous. Look at Birmingham, Man City, Spurs...where they affected at all? In that context Rafa did an awesome job to get 76 points, CL semis, and with title winning form from Feb onwards, without a doubt.

It can't be rotation either, simply because that run of draws ending with the West Ham defeat (another game of bad decisions) was actually Rafa keeping a pretty steady team. The only rotations were in defence, where we had exceptional injuries at that time.

With stability off the field, and the likelihood of Carra never having to play next to a slow or inexperienced defender next season, and with Hyppia and Skrtel able to give him a rest, as well as Benayoun for Gerrard in some games, we could be laughing.

76 points is a fantastic total in ANY league, but we've got to have patience with Rafa, as he's expected to BEAT the best two teams in the World, on a lower budget, with a much lower wage ceiling. Since Feb, we have rotated as much as we did in our worst month, yet because we are once again building on a high defensive line, only with better options in attack, we have been lethal.

Keep that form up for a whole season, and we could get damn close even without any new signings.
 

[lurganboy]

Playing devil's advocate for a second, to what extent should the players  - who are highly paid professional sportsmen - be allowed to use the off-field problems as an excuse for consistent under-par performances?

For me they shouldn't. Everyone is getting paid, we're not going to go broke. Yes Hicks is a c*nt, but should the players be able to hide behind it as a way of avoiding personal criticism, and for how long should we let them?

People are human, no matter how much they are paid. All professional sportspeople talk of trying to get in the optimum mental state to compete. And breaks in your concentration do affect you.
Linford Christie wouldn't even shake anyone's hand before a race, so that competitors wouldn't drain his mental energy. He would just focus on the finish line.

The point is I would find it very surprising if the boardroom mess hadn't affected the players to some degree.

[markmywords]

You simply can't ignore the off field problems.

The sh1t really hit the fan just before the Man Utd game, and just after a massive blow against reading, where we were robbed by no less than 3 penalty claims going against us (that simply would not happen to Man U or Chelsea, just look at how many penalties torres has won this season...0. No way he wouldn't have one some in a chelsea or man u shirt).

At 3-1, Rafa was then forced to compound that blow by taking off our best players, because he knew he WOULD be sacked without CL progression.

It's easy to say it doesn't affect players, but also ludicrous. Look at Birmingham, Man City, Spurs...where they affected at all? In that context Rafa did an awesome job to get 76 points, CL semis, and with title winning form from Feb onwards, without a doubt.


 

We are close to Everton as we are to Man U

This is not awesome, Chelsea had similiar boardroom problems in 2004 and 2007 and still did better than us then and compared to now, they may have spent more money than us, but this 'boardroom chaos' shouldn't affect players on £90,000 a wk, more than players on £97,000 a wk 

76 points is a fantastic total in ANY league, but we've got to have patience with Rafa, as he's expected to BEAT the best two teams in the World, on a lower budget, with a much lower wage ceiling

Since Instanbul we have outspent ManU, yet we are nowhere near them in the league, this is awful, not awesome.