Topic: May 2019 Local Elections (officially nothing to do with Brexit but, you know...)

[A-Bomb]

But she’s exceptionally clever.

I used to watch years of 'This Week' in the early mid noughties - all she ever did was whittle on with very little substance. I've yet to see any remarkable evidence that she is particularly intelligent or insightful.

Not to mention she has been institutionalised - with bugger all real life experience outside of the civil service her entire life.

My opinion is we should really have the very best minds running and challenging policies in this country. She falls someway short of that in my opinion.

Even if she does things with a nice tone and smile, that's part of the problem, half the clowns involved in politics are all show ponys with no substance.

[TepidT2O]

I used to watch years of 'This Week' in the early mid noughties - all she ever did was whittle on with very little substance. I've yet to see any remarkable evidence that she is particularly intelligent or insightful.

Not to mention she has been institutionalised - with bugger all real life experience outside of the civil service her entire life.

My opinion is we should really have the very best minds running and challenging policies in this country. She falls someway short of that in my opinion.

Even if she does things with a nice tone and smile, that's part of the problem, half the clowns involved in politics are all show ponys with no substance.

No problem with any of that.  But she’s still a remarkable person.

[classycarra]

Depends how you define thick as her academic record  suggests she isnt that thick.

Believing in homeopathy is a good litmus test. And she thinks the NHS should be funding it. That's more recent than her passing exams 30 years ago.

[TepidT2O]

Believing in homeopathy is a good litmus test. And she thinks the NHS should be funding it. That's more recent than her passing exams 30 years ago.

It’s different.

[John C]

Surely if it was about not delievering Brexit, then the votes would have gone towards UKIP and the Tories, not openly Remain parties like the Greens/Lib Dems

Yep mate, but the bias was strongly about not delivering Brexit. From what someone said about the BBC news may not have differed from the radio during the day.
Scandalous.

[oldfordie]

this is the single biggest issue.

With brexit there is no middle/grey area. But labour are trying to create it with some mythical situation. It’s impossible.

Remainers want to remain, keep all things they have, leavers want out, it’s as simple as that.

Remainers keep saying people didn’t know what type of brexit they wanted, they did, Cameron said it bluntly in his first press conference that leaving Europe means leaving the single market and leaving the customs union.

Problem is both sides know that situation is fucked hence why brexit hasn’t happened and we are currently going through the motions.

Both sides are indecisive hence the current situation with the two main parties, if labour said we are gonna be staying if you vote for us, even some Tories would vote for them. Instead they are not a viable option for any position. That bastard needs to go

Then why did Frottage and leave MPs argue Norway as a successful example of a country being able to prosper independently outside the EU. most leave voters voted for the cake and eat it Brexit, we can leave the EU and the EU will be on the phone in no time offering us the best deal on the planet, we can have the best of both worlds. leave voters showed their ignorance straight after the referendum. they argued nobody knows what sort of deal we will get, lets be positive and get behind the government during the negotiations. am sure leave voters knew what they voted for, ive spoken to a few and it's not really about them knowing what they voted for which basically means voting for what they want to happen. they didn't understand the implications of what they voted for.
People may have voted to leave the SM but they did believe we will get a great deal to overcome the problems of leaving the EU, nobody voted for a no deal, it was never argued, even the leave campaign argued we will have a great deal like Norway. Norway as we know are in the SM.
The problem now is those same voters believe Mays definition of Brexit, they look at Mays red lines as sacred, Mays red lines make a deal impossible. our politicians have f..up badly, they have played with fire and the country is now paying the price.

[Ghost Town]

So it's as we feared. Labour are spinning this as saying they are not Brexit enough. Corbyn and May will come to a bastardised deal in the next few days. Is there any hope that Labour MPs are more intelligent than their Leader and will vote it down? Ditto Tory Remainers?

[[new username under construction]]

Is this showing people want to stay in Europe? like the only way they can show it at the moment?

[stevensr123]

Then why did Frottage and leave MPs argue Norway as a successful example of a country being able to prosper independently outside the EU. most leave voters voted for the cake and eat it Brexit, we can leave the EU and the EU will be on the phone in no time offering us the best deal on the planet, we can have the best of both worlds. leave voters showed their ignorance straight after the referendum. they argued nobody knows what sort of deal we will get, lets be positive and get behind the government during the negotiations. am sure leave voters knew what they voted for, ive spoken to a few and it's not really about them knowing what they voted for which basically means voting for what they want to happen. they didn't understand the implications of what they voted for.
People may have voted to leave the SM but they did believe we will get a great deal to overcome the problems of leaving the EU, nobody voted for a no deal, it was never argued, even the leave campaign argued we will have a great deal like Norway. Norway as we know are in the SM.
The problem now is those same voters believe Mays definition of Brexit, they look at Mays red lines as sacred, Mays red lines make a deal impossible. our politicians have f..up badly, they have played with fire and the country is now paying the price.

a no deal is basically leaving the single market and customs unions though.

Don't get be wrong. The finer details where not discussed and that is the fault  of both sides of the debate. But leaving the single market and customs union is a hard brexit like Cameron said it was when he first announced the referendum.remainers can try and spin it what ever when they feel but that is a fact.

Also a fact is we are fucked if we leave no matter which way. Sadly 9 years of Tories  and the media blaming the EU for everything made that possible

[Ghost Town]

a no deal is basically leaving the single market and customs unions though.

Don't get be wrong. The finer details where not discussed and that is the fault  of both sides of the debate. But leaving the single market and customs union is a hard brexit like Cameron said it was when he first announced the referendum.remainers can try and spin it what ever when they feel but that is a fact.

Also a fact is we are fucked if we leave no matter which way. Sadly 9 years of Tories  and the media blaming the EU for everything made that possible

You are missing the point. Cameron may or may not have said that, but prominent Leavers did not envisage leaving the SM and CU as a necessary part of delivering Brexit. You have zero evidence that that is what people voted for

[stevensr123]

You are missing the point. Cameron may or may not have said that, but prominent Leavers did not envisage leaving the SM and CU as a necessary part of delivering Brexit. You have zero evidence that that is what people voted for

the evidence i have though is the guy and party that instigated this, specifically said leaving the EU in this referendum means leaving the single market and customs union when then announced it  .  That is a fact.

All these situations that have come into play after a vote is from people who want to stay.

But again, I want to stay and I don't think this should have been even brought to the people now.

[Red Beret]

No problem with any of that.  But she’s still a remarkable person.

My sister has two degrees but gawd she is clueless on so much, especially when but comes to just getting human interactions.

 Academic achievement doesn't translate into political nouse or people smarts. It also doesn't mean you can think on your feet.

[Ghost Town]

the evidence if have though is the guy and party that instigated this specifically said leaving the EU in this referendum means leaving the single market and customs union .  Thst is a fact.

You think all Leave voters dutifully paid attention to Remainer and Project Fear architect David Cameron and voted accordingly? Yeh, I can see why. Not like there were any Leave voices they could listen to, spinning them all kinds of comforting fairytales, no sir.

Christ it's like arguing with a fucking wall in here, sometimes

[Zeb]

BBC projected national vote share.

Conservatives: 28% (-7)
Labour: 28% (-1)
Lib Dems: 19% (+8)
Others: 25%

(Change since 2015)

Curtice is saying this is the second time ever that both Tories and Labour have been below 30%. Last time was 2013.

[stevensr123]

You think all Leave voters dutifully paid attention to Remainer and Project Fear architect David Cameron and voted accordingly? Yeh, I can see why. Not like there were any Leave voices they could listen to, spinning them all kinds of comforting fairytales, no sir.

Christ it's like arguing with a fucking wall in here, sometimes

what because I don't agree what you are saying?

When the vote was announced Cameron said this is the biggest vote in a generation. He said voting leave means leaving the single market and customs union. That was thee biggest call of the whole election and it's why I pushed my whole family to vote stay.

The rest was comentators giving there opinion .  I'm not saying all leavers have the same views. But the biggest view was surely the top guy of government saying this is what will happen.

Again your the one switching goal posts saying Cameron was project fear. He was the one who signed it in ffs.  It wasn't a question of do we leave but have foot in. It was an in or out.

The shit thing is, it was  shit question, with a shit majority needed, given to people like our selves and the people who run the country who don't have a clue. And now people and the finances are more aware.

I actually think it makes things worse saying they don't know what type brexit they wanted.

ANY brexit is shit, does it even matter if they thought xyz might happen? Those situations have already been clear it will happen.

However at the time it was a black and what question and remain people can discuss alternative situations like we are discussing the result against barca

[Nobby Reserve]

what because I don't agree what you are saying?

When the vote was announced Cameron said this is the biggest vote in a generation. He said voting leave means leaving the single market and customs union. That was thee biggest call of the whole election and it's why I pushed my whole family to vote stay.

The rest was comentators giving there opinion .  I'm not saying all leavers have the same views. But the biggest view was surely the top guy of government saying this is what will happen.

Again your the one switching goal posts saying Cameron was project fear. He was the one who signed it in ffs.  It wasn't a question of do we leave but have foot in. It was an in or out.

The shit thing is, it was  shit question, with a shit majority needed, given to people like our selves and the people who run the country who don't have a clue. And now people and the finances are more aware.

The Leave Campaigns each branded Cameron's words as 'Project Fear', with even diminutive Brexit fundamentalist and all-round shithouse Aaron Banks saying we'd not be leaving the CU.

Seriously, whilst I'm sure there was a substantial proportion of Leave voters who did indeed believe a Leave victory would mean a hard/no-deal Brexit, many others will have believed the blurb from the Leave campaigns saying it wouldn't lead to a hard Brexit.

I don't understand why you're trying to argue against a point that is clear as day to almost everyone on here.

[Zeb]

Is this showing people want to stay in Europe? like the only way they can show it at the moment?

It's possible. If you scaled up the wards to the constituency, take Derby North (Chris Williamson, Labour) and find a narrative for it:

Con 33% (44% in 2017)
Lab 29% (49% in 2017)
LD 26% (5% in 2017)
UKIP 11% (2% in 2017)

But there are alternative explanations to the straight "everyone voted remain" which aren't so neat. eg Labour seems to have gained (slightly) in southern England and took their kicking in the north, Tories the reverse.

[Ghost Town]

what because I don't agree what you are saying?

When the vote was announced Cameron said this is the biggest vote in a generation. He said voting leave means leaving the single market and customs union. That was thee biggest call of the whole election and it's why I pushed my whole family to vote stay.

The rest was comentators giving there opinion .  I'm not saying all leavers have the same views. But the biggest view was surely the top guy of government saying this is what will happen.

Again your the one switching goal posts saying Cameron was project fear. He was the one who signed it in ffs.  It wasn't a question of do we leave but have foot in. It was an in or out.

The shit thing is, it was  shit question, with a shit majority needed, given to people like our selves and the people who run the country who don't have a clue. And now people and the finances are more aware.

*sigh* No, I'm saying that because Cameron was seen by voters as a Remainer and because he and Osborne were the ones most associated of Project Fear, there's little, if any, evidence that Leave voters either took any cues from him, or believed what he said.

If Cameron said that Leaving definitely meant leaving the SM and CU then most Leavers, led on by the Leave contingent and accuations of Project Fear, would have thought that he was just scaremongering, ESPECIALLY as prominent Leavers were constantly saying otherwise. By Cameron saying it it immediately became something for Leavers to doubt.

That is the essence of how the campaigns were run: Remainer pronouncements were en masse classed as scaremongering rhetoric, not to be believed. Believe the fucking bus before you believe the fucking boss.

At least do yourself the favour of accepting that things were not as black and white and simple as you are casting them to be. All of this has been covered. Go back to May's speech about leaving the SM and CU and look at the initial shockwaves it caused in both camps, because few but the hardest Brexit nutters either expected or wanted that to happen. Of course they'll all now claim that it's what they all always wanted, to save face. But history tells a different story

[stevensr123]

The Leave Campaigns each branded Cameron's words as 'Project Fear', with even diminutive Brexit fundamentalist and all-round shithouse Aaron Banks saying we'd not be leaving the CU.

Seriously, whilst I'm sure there was a substantial proportion of Leave voters who did indeed believe a Leave victory would mean a hard/no-deal Brexit, many others will have believed the blurb from the Leave campaigns saying it wouldn't lead to a hard Brexit.

I don't understand why you're trying to argue against a point that is clear as day to almost everyone on here.

I hardly heard  word of hard or soft or any type of brexit when the referendum happened. Most people wouldn't of.

It was an in and out from the get go and then trade deals happening after .

Of course I knew there would be negotiations. But I'm guessing the vast majorly of people thought we would just leave. You are over estimating the public.

[Libertine]

Tories losses now at over 800.

LD+Green gains closing in on 600.

75 councils still to go.....

[stevensr123]

*sigh* No, I'm saying that because Cameron was seen by voters as a Remainer and because he and Osborne were the ones most associated of Project Fear, there's little, if any, evidence that Leave voters either took any cues from him, or believed what he said.

If Cameron said that Leaving definitely meant leaving the SM and CU then most Leavers, led on by the Leave contingent and accuations of Project Fear, would have thought that he was just scaremongering, ESPECIALLY as prominent Leavers were constantly saying otherwise. By Cameron saying it it immediately became something for Leavers to doubt.

That is the essence of how the campaigns were run: Remainer pronouncements were en masse classed as scaremongering rhetoric, not to be believed. Believe the fucking bus before you believe the fucking boss.

At least do yourself the favour of accepting that things were not as black and white and simple as you are casting them to be. All of this has been covered. Go back to May's speech about leaving the SM and CU and look at the initial shockwaves it caused in both camps, because few but the hardest Brexit nutters either expected or wanted that to happen. Of course they'll all now claim that it's what they all always wanted, to save face. But history tells a different story

your argument doesn't have any substance. People voted got brexit because Cameron is a project fear guy?even though brexit isn't happening because the stuff he said would happen, isn't actually happening?

[Ghost Town]

I hardly heard  word of hard or soft or any type of brexit when the referendum happened. Most people wouldn't of.

It was an in and out from the get go and then trade deals happening after .

Of course I knew there would be negotiations. But I'm guessing the vast majorly of people thought we would just leave. You are over estimating the public.

You are joking right? The prevailing Leave view was that we could have all the benefits without any of the downsides because "they need us more than we need them". It was going to be the easiest deal in history.

As far as I recall, Leavers by and large thought we'd leave the EU political institution, and stop paying them money and "take back our borders, laws and sovereignty", but keep all the other benefits. I mean for fuck's sake, Leavers in deprived areas thought they'd continue getting EU funding for projects. That's how degenerate the thought processes were.

[stevensr123]

Tories losses now at over 800.

LD+Green gains closing in on 600.

75 councils still to go.....

beautiful and holy shit. No way to spin this now.that is not a protest vote. Fuck off this brexit bastards like Jeremy and may

[Ghost Town]

your argument doesn't have any substance. People voted got brexit because Cameron is a project fear guy?even though brexit isn't happening because the stuff he said would happen, isn't actually happening?

Titty fucking Christ. You are not doing yourself or your ability to read and comprehend, many favours here, bud

[Paul-LFC]

Tories up to 820 seats lost now with 70 councils still to declare.

Wasn't the prediction that they "could lose up to" 800 seats? So they're already past that. Next stop -1000?

Labour down 89. Lib Dems +474, Green +125, Independent +374.

[stevensr123]

You are joking right? The prevailing Leave view was that we could have all the benefits without any of the downsides because "they need us more than we need them". It was going to be the easiest deal in history.

As far as I recall, Leavers by and large thought we'd leave the EU political institution, and stop paying them money and "take back our borders, laws and sovereignty", but keep all the other benefits. I mean for fuck's sake, Leavers in deprived areas thought they'd continue getting EU funding for projects. That's how degenerate the thought processes were.

I'm talking about actually leaving the place mate. The aftermath anyone with any intelligence knew what will happen . Again I'm not arguing what will happen. I'm just arguing what people voted for. Most people thought like what was proposed.i tried to change people.


Again just a stupid situation from the worst priminsiter ever

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Tories up to 820 seats lost now with 70 councils still to declare.

Wasn't the prediction that they "could lose up to" 800 seats? So they're already past that. Next stop -1000?

Labour down 89. Lib Dems +474, Green +125, Independent +374.

Already staggering numbers but if they crack 1000 that is large cudgel to batter them about with. I mean 800+ is big but 1000 is a number that resonates.

[OneTouchFooty]

That other parties are gaining traction and performing well in elections to the detriment of the 2 main parties because they aren’t listening or representing the people so be it. This is good for our politics, not arsed if they the big 2 are suffering, a 2 party system is shite.

The BBC have been pathetic again in reporting the facts. Spinning a Brexit backlash as a sign voters want the parties “to get on with Brexit” is fucking laughable.

[Alan_X]

the evidence i have though is the guy and party that instigated this, specifically said leaving the EU in this referendum means leaving the single market and customs union when then announced it  .  That is a fact.

All these situations that have come into play after a vote is from people who want to stay.

But again, I want to stay and I don't think this should have been even brought to the people now.

1. How many people in the general population had any idea what the single market or the customs union actually were? Given the fact that most people still seem to have no idea now it's highly unlikely that they knew at the time.

2. Cameron was the leader of Remain not Leave. He was making the point about leaving the SM and CU not as a promise of something good, but as one potentially disastrous consequence of voting Leave. And anyway, see point 1.

3. As has been pointed out, many of the Leave campaigners proposed versions of Brexit that included access to the Single Market and or Customs Union (Norway etc). This goes against point 1 and point 2. That may have been because they were liars, or like most other people, had no idea what the Customs Union or Single Market actually are. neither option supports the idea that the public knew what the single market and/or customs union.

4. It is utterly irrelevant anyway because the impact of leaving the CU and SM sill be devastating for the economy. If that has become apparent to more and more people in the years since the campaign and referendum, it's further damning evidence that they had no idea what they were voting for.

[Alan_X]

I hardly heard  word of hard or soft or any type of brexit when the referendum happened. Most people wouldn't of.

It was an in and out from the get go and then trade deals happening after .

Of course I knew there would be negotiations. But I'm guessing the vast majorly of people thought we would just leave. You are over estimating the public.

If people thought we would 'just Leave' then they clearly had no idea what they were actually voting for.

[stevensr123]

Titty fucking Christ. You are not doing yourself or your ability to read and comprehend, many favours here, bud

my whole argument to be honest mate is people voted brexit is because they have shit lives and need an outlet. They think leaving the EU means that might happen, people wasn't thinking hard or soft or anything like that. What I hope people realise is it's not the EI but the Tories or labour that is fucking people now.

All I'm disagreeing with is what people are saying about what people voted for. It was a clear clean cut vote for leaving the EU.

Sadly the reasons for leaving where full of shit.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Refreshing this scoreboard from time to time is like watching a T20 scoreboard while Gale is in full flow, only in reverse for the Tories

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ceeqy0e9894t/england-local-elections-2019

[stevensr123]

If people thought we would 'just Leave' then they clearly had no idea what they were actually voting for.

no one did mate. Even our politicians earning 90+ a year don't know what they are doing. It is ridiculous looking back how this question was even asked.

Seen an interview the day and an MP nearly understood the CU

[OneTouchFooty]

the evidence i have though is the guy and party that instigated this, specifically said leaving the EU in this referendum means leaving the single market and customs union when then announced it  .  That is a fact.

All these situations that have come into play after a vote is from people who want to stay.

But again, I want to stay and I don't think this should have been even brought to the people now.

We can’t be beholden to what someone said in a previous parliament from 3 years ago.

Turkey are in the customs union but not in the EU (despite what Boris and Facebook disinformation channels tell you). There was no mandate for a scorched earth policy in regards to tearing up any treaty or agreement with the letters “EU” regardless of the consequences, that’s utter madness.

In the words of Brexiters themselves...

https://youtube.com/0xGt3QmRSZY

[Alan_X]

...However at the time it was a black and what question and remain people can discuss alternative situations like we are discussing the result against barca

And finally, if what you say is true, then a 'black and white' Brexit is unachievable and surely if something is impossible it has to be dropped.

[Yosser0_0]

I was displeased with the BBC Radio 4 narrative this morning The 7.00am headlines and an article at 7.10 suggested the rebel votes where due to Tories and Labour not delivering Brexit without considering that it might be because people don't want Brexit and they demand a choice (again).

The BBC narrative could certainly have influenced how someone perceive the election results rationale and it was plain wrong.

You should have seen Sky news at one o'clock, unbelievable. Starts with the headline that Torys and Labour loose seats due to not getting on with Brexit, then shows Theresa May speech about "A clear message from the voters to get on with Brexit. THEN goes to Calderdale to speak to the new Labour councillor after taking control from Tory's, interviewer asks if result is due to Brexit? Gets the reply of "no the constituents are 50/50 Leave / Remain, people have voted on local issues not national". Interviewer turns back to the camera - "Quite clearly Brexit is the issue". Absolutely blatant!   


They then showed the results from Stockport (Hung), the changes were Labour 0%, Tory -10%, UKIP -10%, LDP el al +20%. Quite clearly a Remain vote - not even acknowledged!
 

[CornerFlag]

Refreshing this scoreboard from time to time is like watching a T20 scoreboard while Gale is in full flow, only in reverse for the Tories

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ceeqy0e9894t/england-local-elections-2019

51 councils left to go, Tories are going to lose over 1000 seats aren't they?  Good times!  I'd be interested to see the make-up of the independent councillors though, as in allegiances to certain parties but not members, or standing on local issues, that sort of thing.  Lib Dems and Greens the story here though.

Would you imagine that some of the councils that are NOC will have more left-leanings than previously with the scale of Tory losses to those two parties?  I'd imagine you could see Lab-Lib-Green pacts forming against Conservative policies, which in turn could shape more of the Labour Brexit policy (I live in hope.)

[stevensr123]

And finally, if what you say is true, then a 'black and white' Brexit is unachievable and surely if something is impossible it has to be dropped.

it is achaviable though. We can just leave Europe.

However we will be killed by it no matter which situation.

My point was labour need to simply say vote for us and we stay. Fuck a referendum.

A month ago I was saying something different but now realise the British public don't really give a fuck either way . It's not gonna be a civil war.and we can justify it because it seems that is what is happening with evey poll and election

[Libertine]

Would you imagine that some of the councils that are NOC will have more left-leanings than previously with the scale of Tory losses to those two parties?  I'd imagine you could see Lab-Lib-Green pacts forming against Conservative policies, which in turn could shape more of the Labour Brexit policy (I live in hope.)

True. Understand why the media reports things like "Con lose to NOC", but it really doesn't say much. Did they just barely lose their majority? Or are they no longer the largest party, with LG/Greens or Lab/Greens likely to come to power?

Guardian has a very nice overview of the results, with the new composition of councils:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/may/02/local-elections-2019-live-results-for-english-councils

[Yosser0_0]

Some good and heated debats on BBC News channel at the moment between Green, Labour and Tory rep's. Quite impressed with Jonathan Bartley of the Green's - very clear and decisive about his EU views.