Topic: Notre-Dame Cathedral on Fire

[Libertine]

Classy reponse from the (next) US president....

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1117957192337039361

[only6times]

Bad few weeks for Peter Beardsley. Sacked by Newcastle F.C and now his gaff has burnt down.

[Giono]

Classy reponse from the (next) US president....

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1117957192337039361

I speak French and Spanish and Mayor Pete speaks both reasonably well with a decent accent. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that he ie is the anti-Trump.

[bahrainexpat]

Fuck me - I fell for that one.

For whom the bell tolls

[Broad Spectrum]

I was there last month and didn't really plan to go in but had a look anyway whilst a mass was in progress. Absolutely stunning, shame it'll be closed to the public for a while now.

[rushyman]

Cheers for those illustrations and pics Alan

Great stuff. Really much better news than I was expecting. Cathedral ‘experts’ one after the other saying the entire thing was doomed

Embarrassing clamour for tragedy. Weird weird people

[Alan_X]

Cheers for those illustrations and pics Alan

Great stuff. Really much better news than I was expecting. Cathedral ‘experts’ one after the other saying the entire thing was doomed

Embarrassing clamour for tragedy. Weird weird people

Far too much hyperbolic nonsense last night. More than 90% of the structure is stone and was never going to catch fire.

As you say, far too much clamour for tragedy and drama. The reverse today was equally nonsensical - a ‘miracle’ that so much survived. Surely the miracle would have been no fire.

[rushyman]

Far too much hyperbolic nonsense last night. More than 90% of the structure is stone and was never going to catch fire.

As you say, far too much clamour for tragedy and drama. The reverse today was equally nonsensical - a ‘miracle’ that so much survived. Surely the miracle would have been no fire.

Exactly

Hyperbole overdrive. Some were very clearly well educated people aswell saying it was finished, desperate to be  the messenger of news

Bad news sells and when that’s been flogged to death time for the amazing news. In this case a miracle

[Skidder.]

Somewhere in Hollywood, a gaggle of scriptwriters have just pissed their pants in excitement as the second draft rolls off of the HP... And straight into a FedEx folder marked "FAO: Tom Hanks!"... American press can't help themselves, they've been all over this like... I don't know... like they're waiting on some terrorist threat ahead of easter?

They really are the shitty nappy of the world's media and all bemoaners of Trump within the industry are the very crackpots who enabled him in the first place.

Not a Catholic, have never been a fan of Disney, but never like to see a building, especially one of such beauty and grace (as well as a symbol of national pride) catch fire.

Saying all that, with the general media absolutely foaming at the mouth for something to stoke and report and with political situations across continents - in a bizarre Rubik's cube kind of way... sweating by the palms, even if there was any sort of foul play on anyone's part... I'd seriously question the wisdom in releasing any kind of information that could be spun for political agendas.

Probably already been posted, but look at this Trump-hair perched shitbird - she may as well have his hand up her hoop with her Zippy looking mouth, who looks remarkably like that blonde Tory that Alan Sugartits was drooling all over in Apprentice 2, I forgot her name, Kate something or other?

https://twitter.com/EmeraldRobinson/status/1118285882484822018

I mean, Jesus fucking Benedict Cumberbatch in a Virgin Holidays space rocket - don't these people realise that this Conspiracy Bollocks has all been done before in V for Vendetta?

The mind absolutely boggles at some folks' utter need to act like Pied Pipers and get people to dance to their own tune! 

[alonsoisared]

Genuine question, why aren't the Catholic church paying to do the work? Football club owners pledging millions, even our fucking government are talking about stumping money up. I think these people are rich and powerful enough to sort out their own problems?

[TepidT2O]

Genuine question, why aren't the Catholic church paying to do the work? Football club owners pledging millions, even our fucking government are talking about stumping money up. I think these people are rich and powerful enough to sort out their own problems?

I wonder why there isn’t an insurance company paying for it.

To be fair, Norte Dame is a world famous landmark. It’s a Catholic Church, fair enough, but it’s just part of Paris.  Like London without the tower.  Rome without the colosseum. It’s way more than a church now.

.

[Red Beret]

Far too much hyperbolic nonsense last night. More than 90% of the structure is stone and was never going to catch fire.

As you say, far too much clamour for tragedy and drama. The reverse today was equally nonsensical - a ‘miracle’ that so much survived. Surely the miracle would have been no fire.

To be fair Alan, stone can be severely damaged by fire if its hot enough and burns long enough.  Let's not forget the fire was caused by restoration work on stonework that was deteriorating because of pollution, albeit most likely on the outside. 

Stone in poor condition can be cracked and split by intense fire.  Throw the water damage in and the potential for severe damage is possible.  It's not like the Albert Dock, which was built specifically to be fire proof.

That said, I agree with all the sentiments on here that the media on this issue (and lets face it, plenty others) have been outright carrion feeders.  They want it to be bad because misery sells, misery is money.  I for one am certainly relieved that the structure is in much better condition than we first feared, and it's a testament to its construction that it withstood this devastation.

[classycarra]

I wonder why there isn’t an insurance company paying for it.

Do insurance companies pay out on 'acts of god' when it's in a cathedral?

[Red Beret]

I wonder why there isn’t an insurance company paying for it.

To be fair, Norte Dame is a world famous landmark. It’s a Catholic Church, fair enough, but it’s just part of Paris.  Like London without the tower.  Rome without the colosseum. It’s way more than a church now.

.

Did some reading up on how much the Vatican is actually worth.  apparently only $15bn.  Certainly a lot, but only the equivalent to a modest sized corporation really.  And like any business, that's not cash; at least half of it is paper assets.

If Notre Dame really is going to cost upwards of $6bn in restoration work, then that's something even the Vatican likely can't afford on its own, nor should it.  As you say, it's more than just a Catholic Church - it's a symbol of a nation, in one of the most prosperous countries on Earth.  It belongs to France, it belongs to the people of the world. 

No where near the same thing of course, but makes me wonder how people in Liverpool would react if, say, Anfield burned down. 

[Ghost Town]

Also, I think I heard that Notre Dame belongs to the French government, not the Catholic Church, although it is a Catholic cathedral. Not sure who staffs it or who is legally responsible for repairs, renovation etc. But I imagine it's a bit more complicated than some are making out

[classycarra]

No where near the same thing of course, but makes me wonder how people in Liverpool would react if, say, Anfield burned down. 

I wouldn't expect the taxpayer to rebuild it for us

Also, I think I heard that Notre Dame belongs to the French government, not the Catholic Church, although it is a Catholic cathedral. Not sure who staffs it or who is legally responsible for repairs, renovation etc. But I imagine it's a bit more complicated than some are making out

Well put. I expect there'll be quite a few 'for Notre Dame' collection plates going round the world in various churches, so one would hope the vatican contributes plenty of it's share

[Red Beret]

I wouldn't expect the taxpayer to rebuild it for us

Of course not - we're not Everton!

But I didn't quite mean it like that.  I was thinking more in terms of the emotional loss for the city if we lost any major and beloved landmark in such a manner - rather than the council just knocking shit down because they're idiots.

Anfield would be covered by insurance, and FSG would look to finance reconstruction.  That said, I imagine there are plenty of Liverpool fans around the world who would look to set up a gofundme to assist.  And they wouldn't be asked.

[rafathegaffa83]

Also, I think I heard that Notre Dame belongs to the French government, not the Catholic Church, although it is a Catholic cathedral. Not sure who staffs it or who is legally responsible for repairs, renovation etc. But I imagine it's a bit more complicated than some are making out

Yep. It was seized during the French Revolution

[GBF]

should set the homeless, the refugees, the poor, the starving ones on fire so that couple of rich dudes can throw money at them quickly.

an old building on fire that does not have any sprinkler system, insurance firms will have a field day

[Red Beret]

should set the homeless, the refugees, the poor, the starving ones on fire so that couple of rich dudes can throw money at them quickly.

an old building on fire that does not have any sprinkler system, insurance firms will have a field day

Worth sharing this on that point. Not to shit stir or cause debate - more just an observation.

[Chakan]

Worth sharing this on that point. Not to shit stir or cause debate - more just an observation.

Also why doesn't the church put up some of their 170billion to the restoration project? I mean the pope is praying, so putting his hands together and wishing.

[BarryCrocker]

Worth sharing this on that point. Not to shit stir or cause debate - more just an observation.

Spot on. Also love the fact that they've all made sure their name or brand has been published by nearly every publication. No anonymous pieces of generosity.

As for the Catholic Church throwing some of coin towards the rebuild, I thought I read somewhere on here that the French people took ownership during the revolution.

I know its important to fix these items which are of cultural and historical significance, but could you imagine the current culture that money could change and the history it could make now rather then preserve.

[Nobby Reserve]

Also why doesn't the church put up some of their 170billion to the restoration project? I mean the pope is praying, so putting his hands together and wishing.

A large proportion of that 170bn is set aside for compo claims from victims of their army of nonce priests

[Indomitable_Carp]

I love my history, and I love old buildings. But doing a minutes silence for the Notre Dame in Liverpool is a bit fucking much. The $600 million donated angle has also already been covered, so I won't even go into that. Unbelievable media frenzy for this whole thing really.

[sms1986]

I love my history, and I love old buildings. But doing a minutes silence for the Notre Dame in Liverpool is a bit fucking much. The $600 million donated angle has also already been covered, so I won't even go into that. Unbelievable media frenzy for this whole thing really.

I've not seen anything about a minutes silence for Notre Dame.

[Indomitable_Carp]

I've not seen anything about a minutes silence for Notre Dame.

I heard it on the radio today. Minutes silence, and the cathedral bells will be ringing for seven minutes.

[FlashGordon]

It fucking disgusts me to be honest. No doubt there'll be serious deductibles for tax purposes for all these charitable donations.

[Red Beret]

I love my history, and I love old buildings. But doing a minutes silence for the Notre Dame in Liverpool is a bit fucking much. The $600 million donated angle has also already been covered, so I won't even go into that. Unbelievable media frenzy for this whole thing really.

Agreed. We didn't have  minutes silence when Fat Joe had the Futurist pulled down.

I can understand the cathedral bells though. Good to express solidarity.

[Red Beret]

It fucking disgusts me to be honest. No doubt there'll be serious deductibles for tax purposes for all these charitable donations.

All trying to buy their way into heaven.

[classycarra]

Minutes silences at this point are very close to meaningless. They serve a purpose for remembrance but we pause to 'remember' things that happened less than a week ago now, and with such a low threshold they're almost constant.

Though if the cathedral wants to do their own thing about another cathedral, why not.

[Alan_X]

To be fair Alan, stone can be severely damaged by fire if its hot enough and burns long enough.  Let's not forget the fire was caused by restoration work on stonework that was deteriorating because of pollution, albeit most likely on the outside. 

Stone in poor condition can be cracked and split by intense fire.  Throw the water damage in and the potential for severe damage is possible.  It's not like the Albert Dock, which was built specifically to be fire proof.

That said, I agree with all the sentiments on here that the media on this issue (and lets face it, plenty others) have been outright carrion feeders.  They want it to be bad because misery sells, misery is money.  I for one am certainly relieved that the structure is in much better condition than we first feared, and it's a testament to its construction that it withstood this devastation.

If it was a building with timber floors and internal structure I'd agree with you. Glasgow School of Art suffered damage to the stone work because internal timber burned and there was significant internal damage when Windsor Castle burned because St George's Hall had a timber roof with no stone vaults and there was loads of panelling and furnishings.

The roof structure and spire is (obviously) above the columns and buttresses and above the roof vaults. There's no significant fire load inside the body of the building and what there is was too distant from the heat of the fire to flash over. You can see all the pews and furniture inside the nave.

Even when the burning spire fell and crashed through the transept there was nothing significant for it to set fire to.

[GBF]

28m raised for Grenfell Tower....people lived there and some died

closed to 1b being raised for Notre Dame...

[Alan_X]

28m raised for Grenfell Tower....people lived there and some died

closed to 1b being raised for Notre Dame...

I don't understand what they have to do with each other. They are both buildings that caught fire. Other than that, completely different.

[Red Beret]

If it was a building with timber floors and internal structure I'd agree with you. Glasgow School of Art suffered damage to the stone work because internal timber burned and there was significant internal damage when Windsor Castle burned because St George's Hall had a timber roof with no stone vaults and there was loads of panelling and furnishings.

The roof structure and spire is (obviously) above the columns and buttresses and above the roof vaults. There's no significant fire load inside the body of the building and what there is was too distant from the heat of the fire to flash over. You can see all the pews and furniture inside the nave.

Even when the burning spire fell and crashed through the transept there was nothing significant for it to set fire to.

Yes.  Looking at the pictures the structure looks quite sound.  It will take time to asses and identify any potential weak areas of course. 

It will probably reopen to the public relatively quickly once the damage is assessed and the structure is encased protectively.  A lot of the restoration work can be done at the same time.  Allowing for structure scans, assessments, temporary repairs and removal of at risk fixtures for restoration, it could well reopen in as little as two years.

Will be interesting to see how they blend modern and traditional work practices.  For example, whether they rebuild the roof in situ, or carefully map the roof area and construct the replacement all at once so it can be disassembled and reassembled on site for quick installation.

[jason67]

I don't understand what they have to do with each other. They are both buildings that caught fire. Other than that, completely different.

One was full of poor people, one was a chance for very rich people to self promote.

I think people are trying to highlight the fact that the self promoting rich people (as mentioned above) are more willing to help as long as it shows them to be good people.

[Alan_X]

One was full of poor people, one was a chance for very rich people to self promote.

I think people are trying to highlight the fact that the self promoting rich people (as mentioned above) are more willing to help as long as it shows them to be good people.

Sorry but it's a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't bear close scrutiny. Society is complicated and unless you're going to be an absolutist and ban all spending on anything else until every social problem is sorted then there will always be buildings like Notre Dame that need renovation or restoration.

Are you saying that Notre Dame shouldn't be restored? Just let it rot?

If not it needs to be paid for. If you don't want billionaires donations then where does the money come from? The public purse? Or just people with far less wealth?

For those of us who live in the world where we are trying to promote culture and access to the arts, music and literature for people who might otherwise be excluded, donations from rich benefactors is essential to making things happen. It would be great if that wasn't the case but that's the world we live in. And if that means it's got the name of a benefactor on it then who gives a fucking shit? Not the people who get to use it.

I assume that everyone disgusted by this won't be supporting Liverpool until the world's problems are solved. They raised £28 million for Grenfell Tower and we spent £75 million on a centre-back. Modern football is all about self-promotion left, right and centre from TV companies, to sponsors to owners and players.

A few French billionaires have given 700 million to the fund to restore Notre Dame? That's 700 million that doesn't have to be found by the government or ordinary people. And if it's not anonymous then who really gives a shit? Do you really think the head of Louis Vuitton* and the fourth richest man in the world needs the extra publicity?

*this is the Louis Vuitton brand:



I think they're doing ok for name recognition...

[jason67]

Sorry but it's a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't bear close scrutiny. Society is complicated and unless you're going to be an absolutist and ban all spending on anything else until every social problem is sorted then there will always be buildings like Notre Dame that need renovation or restoration.

Are you saying that Notre Dame shouldn't be restored? Just let it rot?

If not it needs to be paid for. If you don't want billionaires donations then where does the money come from? The public purse? Or just people with far less wealth?

For those of us who live in the world where we are trying to promote culture and access to the arts, music and literature for people who might otherwise be excluded, donations from rich benefactors is essential to making things happen. It would be great if that wasn't the case but that's the world we live in. And if that means it's got the name of a benefactor on it then who gives a fucking shit? Not the people who get to use it.

I assume that everyone disgusted by this won't be supporting Liverpool until the world's problems are solved. They raised £28 million for Grenfell Tower and we spent £75 million on a centre-back. Modern football is all about self-promotion left, right and centre from TV companies, to sponsors to owners and players.

A few French billionaires have given 700 million to the fund to restore Notre Dame? That's 700 million that doesn't have to be found by the government or ordinary people. And if it's not anonymous then who really gives a shit? Do you really think the head of Louis Vuitton* and the fourth richest man in the world needs the extra publicity?

*this is the Louis Vuitton brand:



I think they're doing ok for name recognition...

Sorry Alan but that's the reason why we are where we are in the world today..... The 'well that's how it is and nothing is going to change' attitude is how we've ended up accepting second best as the norm , and you know what, it's not good enough and that's why people are becoming knee-jerk as you put it.

As for your second point I've never heard of that brand in my like so they can't be doing that good of a fuckin job can they? 

[Ghost Town]

I agree with Alan on this. Notre Dame will have to be paid for. If we can get away with a few billionaires footing that bill then we're laughing. that's better for everyone. They get some kind of reflected cachet; the cathedral gets restored and the public purse and poorer people can spend their money where it's more needed.

The fact that such rich people may not be so quick to donate to more urgent and less glamorous causes is a shame, but it's their decision. Life and people's choices are rarely fair or logical.

Perhaps general taxpayers can more easily donate to those causes because they don't have to foot the Notre Dame bill

[FlashGordon]

I agree with Alan on this. Notre Dame will have to be paid for. If we can get away with a few billionaires footing that bill then we're laughing. that's better for everyone. They get some kind of reflected cachet; the cathedral gets restored and the public purse and poorer people can spend their money where it's more needed.

The fact that such rich people may not be so quick to donate to more urgent and less glamorous causes is a shame, but it's their decision. Life and people's choices are rarely fair or logical.

Perhaps general taxpayers can more easily donate to those causes because they don't have to foot the Notre Dame bill

No one is saying they can't donate to whatever they choose. People are lamenting at what they're choosing to donate to. Also if you have that much money to be donating you don't really need it. There's plenty that do though.

[Red Beret]

No one is saying they can't donate to whatever they choose. People are lamenting at what they're choosing to donate to. Also if you have that much money to be donating you don't really need it. There's plenty that do though.

Indeed yes. 

I don't think anybody is saying Notre Dame shouldn't be renovated; they're simply highlighting a long standing double standard at work.  It's also puts the issue on the table that, whilst many rich people might earn the money they have, they clearly have far more than they really need.  It's a stark reminder of just how much of the world's wealth is locked away from the vast majority of people left fighting over comparative scraps.

Now, with that said, I'm not sure this thread should descend into a social commentary on the issue.  Alan is, after all, quite correct in how it is vital for a cultural and artistic centre such as Notre Dame to be restored to the people.