Topic: Most Overrated Footballers?

[phil236849]

Top three are Hansen-Virgil-Lawrenson (in no particular order). Elite centre backs for any era.

Emlyn-Thommo-Smith-Gillespie-Agger-Matip can be talked about in the same conversation too.

I suspect that Konate might join that company. Joe Gomez too possibly.

I've left Hyypia out. Just. But no one else, although Mark Wright could have been a fine Liverpool defender if he'd found the right coach. 

Phil Babb?

[markmywords]

Top three are Hansen-Virgil-Lawrenson (in no particular order). Elite centre backs for any era.

Emlyn-Thommo-Smith-Gillespie-Agger-Matip can be talked about in the same conversation too.

I suspect that Konate might join that company. Joe Gomez too possibly.

I've left Hyypia out. Just. But no one else, although Mark Wright could have been a fine Liverpool defender if he'd found the right coach. 

Agger and matip ahead of hyypia??

I think you are underselling availability in your analysis if nothing else

[Jookie]

People including Hansen must have also seen Lawro playing. While the likes of Matip, Hyypia and Carra were genuinely excellent at times, it's VvD, Hansen and Lawro as the top 3 for me.

I think I’m in the age range were I only just saw the last season or so ofLawrenson at Liverpool. With Hansen he had another 3-4 seasons in late 80’s and 1990. That included that classic 1987-88 team and, up until recently, our last league title for a long time. If you are mid 40’s ish I think you’ll potentially have some memories of back end of Hansen’s career but not necessarily Lawrenson’s.

It’s why I put Hansen in the best CBs I’ve seen for Liverpool but not Lawrenson.

[Jookie]

Agger and matip ahead of hyypia??

I think you are underselling availability in your analysis if nothing else

It’s all opinions isn’t it.

I wouldn’t have Agger in same bracket as Hyppia or Matip. Genuinely don’t think he had a season where he was elite. He was good in 2006/07 and 2011/12 (where Skrtel was also excellent). Outside of those 2 seasons he didn’t play regularly that often. Sometimes due to injury. Sometimes down to managers choice.

Based on pure ability maybe you could put Agger in those upper echelons of centre backs. Based on consistent performance and contribution I find it hard to put him above Hyppia, Matip or Carragher.

[Keith Lard]

Remember the time Ronaldo single handily knocked United out of the champions league with a hat trick at OT, in spite of Real's defence, Ronaldo was unstoppable.

 

Greatest modern footballer alongside Messi for me. He was a blend of Jonah Lomu, Roberto Baggio and Lewandowski.

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/1gfTu67ZVOI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/1gfTu67ZVOI</a>

[Kopenhagen]

For a period Lovren was genuinely world-class, part of the top two and three central defensive partnerships in World Football.

 

Pretty solid performer after an inauspicious start, but world class? Never.

[Jookie]

Pretty solid performer after an inauspicious start, but world class? Never.

Lovren was a good player but not world class to me.

Probably depends on how a person defines world class. For me, world class is a player who is arguably in the conversation for being in the best 2-3 players in their position if you were picking a World XI. So a GK is world class if in best 2-3 in the World. Same with lb and rb. For centre back there are generally 2 positions available so I’d stretch that to best 4-6 players.

Some players get into that bracket for a season or 2. Other players are consistently in that bracket. Over the last  40 years of watching Liverpool I think we’ve had a number of players who’ve been World class for more limited amounts of time (maybe in the conversation for a season or 2 - for example Joel Matip between about 2018-2020). I think the number of players who’ve been at Liverpool and genuinely been at that level consistently over a 4-5 year period or more is really small - Barnes, Hansen (85-90), Gerrard, Alisson, Trent, Robertson, VvD, Mane, Salah. I think the only others id argue for is Fabinho as one of the best DMs from about 2019 to 2021 but even that was a bit short.

Hyppia, Carragher, Suarez, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Matip, Firmino are all players who reached that level at Liverpool but for a much shorter duration. Generally about 1-3 years at that level.

[Nobby Reserve]

From current players, Neymar, Dembele,Pogba and Paqueta off the top of my head.

Pique, Victor Valdes also.

Neymar wins the award hands down.

As an emerging talent, hailed as a supergod player who would eclipse Messi & Ronaldo to be the best of his generation. Turned out it was mostly hype. Only ever a very good player, never a great one. Very inconsistent. A diver and play-actor. Zero heart.

Even as that became more and more apparent, the number of fans still fawning over the emperor's new clothes has remained massive. Like they fell for the hype but can't admit they were taken in. That includes some pundits, too.

I'd have peak Salah, Suarez, Mane or Torres over peak Neymar anytime.

[PhilV]

Neymar wins the award hands down.

As an emerging talent, hailed as a supergod player who would eclipse Messi & Ronaldo to be the best of his generation. Turned out it was mostly hype. Only ever a very good player, never a great one. Very inconsistent. A diver and play-actor. Zero heart.

Even as that became more and more apparent, the number of fans still fawning over the emperor's new clothes has remained massive. Like they fell for the hype but can't admit they were taken in. That includes some pundits, too.

I'd have peak Salah, Suarez, Mane or Torres over peak Neymar anytime.

Neymar also suffered from a problem a lot of Brazilians seem to have which is the love to party and to prioritize that over football, limiting their career, always "injured" for his sister's birthdays and actually injured for reals a lot due to repeated diving and people going through him for real as a consequence cause he's a bit of a prat.

Great pleasure when Milner clattered him. Neymar is one of those full full full of talent but absolute tiny brain and never made use/improved it, he really could have been fantastic but he himself/his attitude/personality prevented it.

[disgraced cake]

Lovren was obviously not a player blessed with world class ability and he definitely divided opinions, but one thing I'll give him is in the first half of 2018 he was by and large superb. The game that always comes to mind is the 3-0 European win over Man City, which is probably one of my favourite defensive performances ever from about minute 30 onwards (Trent had arguably his best game for the club IMO, pocketed an in form Sane)

He was instrumental alongside Van Dijk in the run to Kiev and putting together really solid league form. He was brilliant in the final against Madrid I thought, as were both full backs. Then he had the World Cup and made that shout about being one of the best in the world. In that moment he was playing the best football of his career, in the 2nd half/extra time against England in the semis it was like watching a monster. It's a shame he never really carried that form on in the next two years with us and he'd have came in handy the season after he left, we'd have probably not been too far off top spot if he had stayed, but overall we fared well with Matip and Gomez playing the best stuff of their careers.

On the comparisons to Carragher, I know people look at him as a different figure now but I'll say it all the time, he was some player for us if not perfect. I don't think he ever had the ability that any of the four we have now have got but he played over 700 times for us for a reason. There was a few years where I thought he was genuinely world class. I know loads have completely changed their views on him because of his media work but you have to remember the football for what it was, the same thing is happening with Henderson now. If you go back in the last couple of years where he did struggle, you wouldn't see many on here calling him crap and a donkey, but all of a sudden he is now. Bizarre really.

[kaesarsosei]

The ACL injury will either make or break Neymar for good and I suspect the latter. He could use it as a reset to try and reinvigorate the rest of his career but I reckon he'll come back the same shape as current-day Brazilian Ronaldo.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

The ACL injury will either make or break Neymar for good and I suspect the latter. He could use it as a reset to try and reinvigorate the rest of his career but I reckon he'll come back the same shape as current-day Brazilian Ronaldo.

He's 32 in February and already semi-retired by going to play in the Saudi League. Doesn't look like he has the body type that puts on a lot of wait but having torn both his ACL and meniscus that's a year out. Not sure how much more he'll have in the tank after that but he's topping up his retirement fund with £100m+ a year.

[markmywords]

Lovren was a good player but not world class to me.

Probably depends on how a person defines world class. For me, world class is a player who is arguably in the conversation for being in the best 2-3 players in their position if you were picking a World XI. So a GK is world class if in best 2-3 in the World. Same with lb and rb. For centre back there are generally 2 positions available so I’d stretch that to best 4-6 players.

Some players get into that bracket for a season or 2. Other players are consistently in that bracket. Over the last  40 years of watching Liverpool I think we’ve had a number of players who’ve been World class for more limited amounts of time (maybe in the conversation for a season or 2 - for example Joel Matip between about 2018-2020). I think the number of players who’ve been at Liverpool and genuinely been at that level consistently over a 4-5 year period or more is really small - Barnes, Hansen (85-90), Gerrard, Alisson, Trent, Robertson, VvD, Mane, Salah. I think the only others id argue for is Fabinho as one of the best DMs from about 2019 to 2021 but even that was a bit short.

Hyppia, Carragher, Suarez, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Matip, Firmino are all players who reached that level at Liverpool but for a much shorter duration. Generally about 1-3 years at that level.

Ian Rush 82 - 87 should be added

[Jookie]

Ian Rush 82 - 87 should be added

Definitely but my 1st season as a regular match goer was 85-86.

Hence why I probably made this oversight. Pre-1985 we had a fair few bona fide world class players.

It’s the period between about 1990 and 2017 where world class players at Liverpool were more scarce.

[afc tukrish]

Definitely but my 1st season as a regular match goer was 85-86.

Hence why I probably made this oversight. Pre-1985 we had a fair few bona fide world class players.

It’s the period between about 1990 and 2017 where world class players at Liverpool were more scarce.

We had Sean Dundee, though...

[Jookie]

We had Sean Dundee, though...

In the bad times I always look back with fondness at Dundee’s Liverpool career. Of particular note was a substitute appearance at home at Leicester and him getting burned for pace by Matt Elliott despite having a 5yard start on a 15 yard chase for the ball. 

It was part of the famous 21st April 1999 defeat at home to Leicester 1-0 via a last minute Iain Marshall winner. Same time United were beating Juve 3-2 away to reach CL on their way to the treble.

The absolute nadir on the footballing side of things in my time following the club.

Will those halcyon days ever return?

[slaphead]

I always thought Dennis Bergkamp was a bit over rated. Or maybe I didn't watch enough Arsenal games to see what everyone else seen. Excellent player like obviously all the same but I've heard a few Arsenal fans say he was one of the top 3 or 4 Premier league players ever and maybe they're best ever.

[Tokyoite]

Hot take perhaps but Neymar? Never got the hype around him . Brilliant diver though I'll give him that.

[Jookie]

I always thought Dennis Bergkamp was a bit over rated. Or maybe I didn't watch enough Arsenal games to see what everyone else seen. Excellent player like obviously all the same but I've heard a few Arsenal fans say he was one of the top 3 or 4 Premier league players ever and maybe they're best ever.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Bergkamp is similar to how Firmino is viewed.

Loved and appreciated by that club’s fans for what they brought beyond goals and assists.

Maybe viewed as very good player by the general footballing public but potentially their all round game is under appreciated by most outside that club’s fanbase.

[disgraced cake]

A lot of Arsenal fans (under a certain age, possibly) would probably say Bergkamp has been their greatest ever player. Always thought Henry was better but I'm sure you'd find a lot of people who think Bobby at his best was above Salah. Maybe not a perfect comparison but who knows.

On Arsenal players, I always thought Van Persie was overrated. Good scoring record throughout his career but I only think he had 2 or 3 seasons were he was performing to the best he could have done.

[tubby]

Henry was easily better than Bergkamp for me.  That's not to say the Dutchman wasn't a magician, he absolutely was.  But so was Henry and he coupled it with that searing pace and goal scoring ability.

[Jookie]

A lot of Arsenal fans (under a certain age, possibly) would probably say Bergkamp has been their greatest ever player. Always thought Henry was better

I’d say Henry was the best PL (since 1992) ever. Maybe I’m over rating him!

Personally don’t think Henry has been surpassed on an individual level for the duration of time he was at his peak (for 5-6 seasons).

Not sure who has even got close to Henry over the same duration. Maybe Salah? Ronaldo (though 3-4 seasons)? Gerrard? Ashley Cole? Shearer? Viera? Keane? Van Dijk? Ferdinand?

[Crosby Nick]

In the bad times I always look back with fondness at Dundee’s Liverpool career. Of particular note was a substitute appearance at home at Leicester and him getting burned for pace by Matt Elliott despite having a 5yard start on a 15 yard chase for the ball. 

It was part of the famous 21st April 1999 defeat at home to Leicester 1-0 via a last minute Iain Marshall winner. Same time United were beating Juve 3-2 away to reach CL on their way to the treble.

The absolute nadir on the footballing side of things in my time following the club.

Will those halcyon days ever return?

I was there! What a night.

Ian Marshall with the winner. About the same time United were scoring the winner in Turin. Owen injured, Fowler banned for the rest of the season.

[afc tukrish]

I was there! What a night.

Ian Marshall with the winner. About the same time United were scoring the winner in Turin. Owen injured, Fowler banned for the rest of the season.

Doesn't get any better than this...

[Broad Spectrum]

I’d say Henry was the best PL (since 1992) ever. Maybe I’m over rating him!

Personally don’t think Henry has been surpassed on an individual level for the duration of time he was at his peak (for 5-6 seasons).

Not sure who has even got close to Henry over the same duration. Maybe Salah? Ronaldo (though 3-4 seasons)? Gerrard? Ashley Cole? Shearer? Viera? Keane? Van Dijk? Ferdinand?

I guess his numbers truly exploded once he left Liverpool for Barca, but Suarez was phenomenal for us (albeit for ~3 seasons). His overall play and impact on the team was at the level of Henry, if not even more. Saying that what Ronaldo did after he left United was ridiculous, always interesting how you rate players when they leave a team/league and get even better. Calling Suarez one of the greatest Liverpool players ever in one sense doesn't feel right because he wasn't with us long, but he was one of our greatest given his impact on the team (and league) and especially when you factor in his Barca career.

Henry was fantastic though, he's comfortably ahead of Bergkamp for me.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

I’d say Henry was the best PL (since 1992) ever. Maybe I’m over rating him!

Personally don’t think Henry has been surpassed on an individual level for the duration of time he was at his peak (for 5-6 seasons).

Not sure who has even got close to Henry over the same duration. Maybe Salah? Ronaldo (though 3-4 seasons)? Gerrard? Ashley Cole? Shearer? Viera? Keane? Van Dijk? Ferdinand?

I'd agree with this. He was consistently brilliant for about 5 seasons. Played regularly and bagged a tonne of goals and assists. The below shows how productive he was.

[Jookie]

I was there! What a night.

Ian Marshall with the winner. About the same time United were scoring the winner in Turin. Owen injured, Fowler banned for the rest of the season.

Me too.

There were some real lows in the 90’s. It’s that context that makes me relatively sanguine about coming 5th last season or not buying a DM in the summer.

I loved going the game in the 90’s despite us being pretty poor for large chunks of it. There’s absolutely no comparison in where we are now as a team and a club (and have been since about 2017) compared with from about 1991 to 2000

[Jookie]

I guess his numbers truly exploded once he left Liverpool for Barca, but Suarez was phenomenal for us (albeit for ~3 seasons). His overall play and impact on the team was at the level of Henry, if not even more. Saying that what Ronaldo did after he left United was ridiculous, always interesting how you rate players when they leave a team/league and get even better. Calling Suarez one of the greatest Liverpool players ever in one sense doesn't feel right because he wasn't with us long, but he was one of our greatest given his impact on the team (and league) and especially when you factor in his Barca career.

Henry was fantastic though, he's comfortably ahead of Bergkamp for me.

Suarez was at an elite level for 2 seasons at Liverpool. Amazing afterwards at Barcelona. Overall career wise I think him and Henry are ball park similar.

In English football Henry is miles better though. He was easily best player in league over a 5 year period. Won Footballer of the Year 3 out of 4 seasons. Odd players have won this award once spuriously.  I-one in last 30-40 years has won it 3 times in 4 seasons.

[disgraced cake]

Henry from about 2000-2006 was unbelievable for Arsenal in the league. In terms of longevity him for sure but in terms of general ability I think Suarez is the best player in the modern league from 1992 onwards when they invented football. From about 2012 to 2018 for LFC/Barca he was only second to Messi. He's one of the very elite I've ever seen when you consider top 5/10 players.

The closest to doing Henry numbers over the same time period has probably been Salah. Kane's first breakthrough years were great and going back to the same period Van Nistelrooy scored loads but the lowest Salah has done league wise in six years here is 19 I think. In terms of doing it over and over again there's not really been many like Salah in the Prem in recent years, obviously Aguero until he started playing less and Kane as mentioned.

[Hazell]

Hot take perhaps but Neymar? Never got the hype around him . Brilliant diver though I'll give him that.

Ha ha, it'd be more surprising if someone thinks he is worth the hype. I don't particularly think he's all that great either. I also think Kane is overrated though

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Ha ha, it'd be more surprising if someone thinks he is worth the hype. I don't particularly think he's all that great either. I also think Kane is overrated though

Kane has outstanding goals and assists per season though, it is skewed by penalties though.

[Coolie High]

Henry from about 2000-2006 was unbelievable for Arsenal in the league. In terms of longevity him for sure but in terms of general ability I think Suarez is the best player in the modern league from 1992 onwards when they invented football. From about 2012 to 2018 for LFC/Barca he was only second to Messi. He's one of the very elite I've ever seen when you consider top 5/10 players.

The closest to doing Henry numbers over the same time period has probably been Salah. Kane's first breakthrough years were great and going back to the same period Van Nistelrooy scored loads but the lowest Salah has done league wise in six years here is 19 I think. In terms of doing it over and over again there's not really been many like Salah in the Prem in recent years, obviously Aguero until he started playing less and Kane as mentioned.

Henry had more ability than Suarez. He could do everything Suarez did and look far more smooth and technically proficient doing so, Suarez has the edge on work rate, but if we’re talking solely ability Henry for me.

Also how can he be only second to Messi when Ronaldo was in his prime?

[Hazell]

Kane has outstanding goals and assists per season though, it is skewed by penalties though.

I think his playmaking abilities are vastly overrated but definitely agree on the penalties bit.

[Jookie]

Henry from about 2000-2006 was unbelievable for Arsenal in the league. In terms of longevity him for sure but in terms of general ability I think Suarez is the best player in the modern league from 1992 onwards when they invented football. From about 2012 to 2018 for LFC/Barca he was only second to Messi.

I’m no big fan oh him but Cristiano Ronaldo had 6 back to back seasons were he scored over 50 goals in club football. That’s an absolutely staggering record and covers most of that 2022-18 period.

Luis Suarez has 1 season in his career where he scored over 40.

I think Suarez is probably a Top 5 forward of the last 10-15 years (Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandiwski, Suarez, Salah). But I think it’s hard to argue he was better than Ronaldo over those peak years of both players. I think he’s more in the bracket below with Lewandowski and Salah. Think players like Kane, Mane, Bale (for a few years), Robben, Ibrahimovic , Cavani, Aguero, Neymar are a bracket below again but still elite forwards

[So… Howard Philips]

I’m no big fan oh him but Cristiano Ronaldo had 6 back to back seasons were he scored over 50 goals in club football. That’s an absolutely staggering record and covers most of that 2022-18 period.

Luis Suarez has 1 season in his career where he scored over 40.

I think Suarez is probably a Top 5 forward of the last 10-15 years (Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandiwski, Suarez, Salah). But I think it’s hard to argue he was better than Ronaldo over those peak years of both players. I think he’s more in the bracket below with Lewandowski and Salah. Think players like Kane, Mane, Bale (for a few years), Robben, Ibrahimovic , Cavani, Aguero, Neymar are a bracket below again but still elite forwards

I think Suarez was a more ‘exciting’ player whereas Ronaldo was more a machine.

[Coolie High]

I’m no big fan oh him but Cristiano Ronaldo had 6 back to back seasons were he scored over 50 goals in club football. That’s an absolutely staggering record and covers most of that 2022-18 period.

Luis Suarez has 1 season in his career where he scored over 40.

I think Suarez is probably a Top 5 forward of the last 10-15 years (Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandiwski, Suarez, Salah). But I think it’s hard to argue he was better than Ronaldo over those peak years of both players. I think he’s more in the bracket below with Lewandowski and Salah. Think players like Kane, Mane, Bale (for a few years), Robben, Ibrahimovic , Cavani, Aguero, Neymar are a bracket below again but still elite forwards

Neymar Kane Robben a bracket below, how? I think they would all be in the same bracket and you add Benzema to that.

[Mister Flip Flop]

The ACL injury will either make or break Neymar for good and I suspect the latter. He could use it as a reset to try and reinvigorate the rest of his career but I reckon he'll come back the same shape as current-day Brazilian Ronaldo.

He fell off the respect train when he signed for the sport washers in Paris. His career ended that day in reality.

[Eeyore]

I’m no big fan oh him but Cristiano Ronaldo had 6 back to back seasons were he scored over 50 goals in club football. That’s an absolutely staggering record and covers most of that 2022-18 period.

Luis Suarez has 1 season in his career where he scored over 40.

I think Suarez is probably a Top 5 forward of the last 10-15 years (Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandiwski, Suarez, Salah). But I think it’s hard to argue he was better than Ronaldo over those peak years of both players. I think he’s more in the bracket below with Lewandowski and Salah. Think players like Kane, Mane, Bale (for a few years), Robben, Ibrahimovic , Cavani, Aguero, Neymar are a bracket below again but still elite forwards

Ronaldo played in teams setup specifically for the benefit of Ronaldo. Whereas Suarez at Barca played in a team setup specifically for Messi.

Suarez for instance only scored 14 penalties in his entire La Liga career. When you play in the same sides as the likes of Messi and Gerrard there aren't many opportunities to score from penalties and free kicks.

[Jookie]

Neymar Kane Robben a bracket below, how? I think they would all be in the same bracket and you add Benzema to that.

Benzema is one I missed.

Are you saying Kane, Neymar and Robben are in that group with Lewandowski, Salah and Suarez? I’m not sure personally. Kane and Benzema would be closest to it for me.

[Jookie]

Goals will be influenced by how teams set up, who takes set pieces etc but, personally, I’d say objectively that Ronaldo s clearly the better player. He’d be in the wider conversation, outside of a Liverpool forum, of being a Top 5 player ever. I’m not sure Suarez is even a Top 5 Liverpool player despite being an incredible player and one of the best players in the World for  a period.

Ronaldo’s style of play will never be aesthetically pleasing as others, his personality will turn people off and he’s played for United and Real. It’s hardly going to make lots of people love him. But his performances, his contributions, his durability and duration of being an elite footballer make him stand out. In my opinion, only Messi is clearly better than him in the last 30-40 years. I suspect if you asked an unbiased audience you’d get a similar answer in vast majority of cases.

It’s all just opinions though. No-one is right or wrong even if their choices are biased