Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[Ghost Town]

One can never overstate the sheer willingness of so many people to make complete tits of themselves in public.

[Fromola]

That fucking Guinea coach. Now next season disrupted by AFCON.

[CasinoJack]

One can never overstate the sheer willingness of so many people to make complete tits of themselves in public.

And here is another prime example.

God forbid people have differing opinions to yourself, people have explained why they thought he had a poor game, yeah some have completely written him off, some have said he's not lived up to what they thought he was going to be and that's their opinion. Get over it, move on.

[groove]

Ghost Town's post is a bit mean, but come on... not all opinions are equal and if we all 'moved on' instead of discussing them then this forum would basically amount to nothing more than a cheerleading forum. I've improved my knowledge of the game on here by reading and arguing over these things.

[CasinoJack]

Ghost Town's post is a bit mean, but come on... not all opinions are equal and if we all 'moved on' instead of discussing them then this forum would basically amount to nothing more than a cheerleading forum. I've improved my knowledge of the game on here by reading and arguing over these things.

Go to the West Ham match thread mate, I have actually explained my opinion on Keita and his performance in the game and was told "my opinion doesn't matter", so he may as well move on now as he seems to be just getting himself really worked up about people questioning Keita. Seems to me if someone doesn't agree with him, he starts throwing his toys out his pram and having a cob on.

[JackWard33]

Still willing to give him time. That being said, I'm a little confused. When the reports of our interest in Naby came out, I vaguely remember there were talks of him being quite a hot-head. Now that he's here, he seems almost timid? People are reporting that he's sort of an introvert...like what? My biggest concern about Naby has nothing to do with his G+A contributions, or his defensive abilities. Its that he is not demanding the ball enough. Just too passive in his approach to the game. I think that is probably the most disappointing aspect so far. That being said, I still think he'll come good.

I don't get where the 'doesn't demand the ball' thing comes from ... he doesn't point enough or something?

Far as I can tell he's by far our best '8' in terms of getting on the ball... pretty sure he leads the touches per 90 among non Henderson or Fabinho (the 6 position) midfielders by a distance

https://www.fbref.com/en/players/f25c8e3a/Naby-Keita#all_kitchen_sink_passing

You can see his passing here - he attempts more passes per 90 than any other 8 (I'm counting Wijnaldam, Milner, Henderson when he played there, AOC etc) and attempts and completes more into the penalty area than any other 8 (I think more than anyone on the entire squad)

So as far as I can tell he's getting on the ball more than anyone else in his position and then producing more with it once he's got it while retaining a 90% completion rate

And none of this includes his defensive work where he leads us in pressures per 90 and I think in possession regains - has v high tackle and interception numbers etc etc .... so genuinely don't know how this 'under achieving shrinking violet' perception of him has been formed

[groove]

Fair enough.

I think we do need to retune their eye when watching Keita. Especially if we think his best games for us have merely been 'good'. Ask ourselves why he turns up so high in the analytics. Why the club, based on those analytics, went for him so hard. They've made so few errors in the market over the last few years, why would they make a £60m one here?

In the lead up to the first goal he played two 1-2s at very direct angles in very tight spaces. In the end it didn't come off for him but it deflected to Trent to cross for Gini. There are so few footballers that can play in those kind of tight spaces and orchestrate those kind of moves for their teams. These are the kind of things I think might get looked over when watching that score huge analytically when it comes to winning football matches. The penetration through well-defended areas.

[CraigDS]

In the lead up to the first goal he played two 1-2s at very direct angles in very tight spaces. In the end it didn't come off for him but it deflected to Trent to cross for Gini. There are so few footballers that can play in those kind of tight spaces and orchestrate those kind of moves for their teams. These are the kind of things I think might get looked over when watching that score huge analytically when it comes to winning football matches. The penetration through well-defended areas.

It's imperative we have that in our game too, as if we have an off crossing day, or if a team defends them well (see in Madrid last week), then we're out of luck.

At least with the option of being through the middle it varies how we attack and makes us so much harder to defend against.

[CasinoJack]

Fair enough.

I think we do need to retune their eye when watching Keita. Especially if we think his best games for us have merely been 'good'. Ask ourselves why he turns up so high in the analytics. Why the club, based on those analytics, went for him so hard. They've made so few errors in the market over the last few years, why would they make a £60m one here?

In the lead up to the first goal he played two 1-2s at very direct angles in very tight spaces. In the end it didn't come off for him but it deflected to Trent to cross for Gini. There are so few footballers that can play in those kind of tight spaces and orchestrate those kind of moves for their teams. These are the kind of things I think might get looked over when watching that score huge analytically when it comes to winning football matches. The penetration through well-defended areas.

I haven't personally wrote him off, I thought he was more effective v Norwich and I think there are games more suited to Keita than others and West Ham isn't one of them, he needs space and West Ham don't offer you that, no space in between the lines, Noble and Rice sat on Diop and Ogbonna's toes. That's why I thought Ox was a better option from the start, that's why Ox probably had more influence on the game when he came on. Also probably why Klopp hooked Keita so quickly after their goal, honestly you could probably count the substitutions Klopp has made this season on one hand between 46-60th minute.

Not everyone can be wrong when they say he had a poor game, even the manager seemed to think so.

[Bolrick]

I think he needs a run of games in midfield to get his groove. With Hendo out, thats what klopp is doing. Hope klopp sticks with him against watford and see how he does.

[JackWard33]

I haven't personally wrote him off, I thought he was more effective v Norwich and I think there are games more suited to Keita than others and West Ham isn't one of them, he needs space and West Ham don't offer you that, no space in between the lines, Noble and Rice sat on Diop and Ogbonna's toes. That's why I thought Ox was a better option from the start, that's why Ox probably had more influence on the game when he came on. Also probably why Klopp hooked Keita so quickly after their goal, honestly you could probably count the substitutions Klopp has made this season on one hand between 46-60th minute.

Not everyone can be wrong when they say he had a poor game, even the manager seemed to think so.

I mean this is the first game in the league in which we've been losing in the 60th minute probably not super surprising he wanted to change things when he hasn't often
He gambled with his sub - AOC made us more direct and often ran beyond the ball but he traded that for a lot more space in midfield for them when we lost the ball.
AOC and Keita are different players and on Monday were asked to do very different things. Its very reductive to conclude 'he went off = he was poor'

[CraigDS]

I haven't personally wrote him off

Just looked at your post history and you may not have said that phrase but you've certainly massively given the impression that you have.

Not everyone can be wrong when they say he had a poor game, even the manager seemed to think so.

What did Klopp tell you mate? Share with us your convo...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Still willing to give him time. That being said, I'm a little confused. When the reports of our interest in Naby came out, I vaguely remember there were talks of him being quite a hot-head. Now that he's here, he seems almost timid? People are reporting that he's sort of an introvert...like what? My biggest concern about Naby has nothing to do with his G+A contributions, or his defensive abilities. Its that he is not demanding the ball enough. Just too passive in his approach to the game. I think that is probably the most disappointing aspect so far. That being said, I still think he'll come good.

He constantly offers himself up for the ball.

Some of the criticism levelled at him is bizarre,it's like some people haven't even watched him play.

[Sharado]

I also think he is a player whose effectiveness isn't really eye catching for some reason. Like he'll top the tackles and intercepts for a match and people will hop on here and say he was lacking defensively.

I think this is a pretty good shout. People - myself included probably - maybe saw Keita in the 'thread the eye of a needle' David Silva sort of bracket before he came, and when he's not doing that stuff [or scoring] there's a tendency to think he's having a poor game. His numbers are increasingly impressive for other stuff though, I think if he keeps fit we'll see a really strong end to the season from him in all departments. I didn't think he was that bad Wednesday, Ox was better but the game suited him more. I'd start Naby for sure V atletico.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Go to the West Ham match thread mate, I have actually explained my opinion on Keita and his performance in the game and was told "my opinion doesn't matter", so he may as well move on now as he seems to be just getting himself really worked up about people questioning Keita. Seems to me if someone doesn't agree with him, he starts throwing his toys out his pram and having a cob on.

You really shouldn't shine a light on some of the crap that was posted in that thread,just as you shouldn't bring any problems you had in that thread into this one.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I don't get where the 'doesn't demand the ball' thing comes from ... he doesn't point enough or something?

Far as I can tell he's by far our best '8' in terms of getting on the ball... pretty sure he leads the touches per 90 among non Henderson or Fabinho (the 6 position) midfielders by a distance

https://www.fbref.com/en/players/f25c8e3a/Naby-Keita#all_kitchen_sink_passing

You can see his passing here - he attempts more passes per 90 than any other 8 (I'm counting Wijnaldam, Milner, Henderson when he played there, AOC etc) and attempts and completes more into the penalty area than any other 8 (I think more than anyone on the entire squad)

So as far as I can tell he's getting on the ball more than anyone else in his position and then producing more with it once he's got it while retaining a 90% completion rate

And none of this includes his defensive work where he leads us in pressures per 90 and I think in possession regains - has v high tackle and interception numbers etc etc .... so genuinely don't know how this 'under achieving shrinking violet' perception of him has been formed

Good post but some people only see what they want to see.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I don't get where the 'doesn't demand the ball' thing comes from ... he doesn't point enough or something?

Far as I can tell he's by far our best '8' in terms of getting on the ball... pretty sure he leads the touches per 90 among non Henderson or Fabinho (the 6 position) midfielders by a distance

https://www.fbref.com/en/players/f25c8e3a/Naby-Keita#all_kitchen_sink_passing

You can see his passing here - he attempts more passes per 90 than any other 8 (I'm counting Wijnaldam, Milner, Henderson when he played there, AOC etc) and attempts and completes more into the penalty area than any other 8 (I think more than anyone on the entire squad)

So as far as I can tell he's getting on the ball more than anyone else in his position and then producing more with it once he's got it while retaining a 90% completion rate

And none of this includes his defensive work where he leads us in pressures per 90 and I think in possession regains - has v high tackle and interception numbers etc etc .... so genuinely don't know how this 'under achieving shrinking violet' perception of him has been formed

Do you not think per 90 numbers are massively misleading when talking about a player with a) a small sample size and b) a player who knows he is unlikely to play the full 90 or is coming on as a sub so can put more into his minutes?

He's generally either come on when we are losing/drawing (Villa/United) with a clear emphasis on him to create (which he did very well at United), or when we are winning comfortably and controlling possession easily to rack up high pass rate, high completion rate (Southampton, West Ham).

[Knight]

Jack was using stats to demonstrate how silly lots of the criticism is. He wasn't using stats to attempt to demonstrate that Keita is our best midfielder. If he had been your post might be more relevant.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Jack was using stats to demonstrate how silly lots of the criticism is. He wasn't using stats to attempt to demonstrate that Keita is our best midfielder. If he had been your post might be more relevant.

When did I say he was?  Your point may be more relevant if I had.

And my dad's bigger than yours. Let the grown ups talk.

[Dench57]

Stat man Jack

[McrRed]

Do you not think per 90 numbers are massively misleading when talking about a player with a) a small sample size and b) a player who knows he is unlikely to play the full 90 or is coming on as a sub so can put more into his minutes?

He's generally either come on when we are losing/drawing (Villa/United) with a clear emphasis on him to create (which he did very well at United), or when we are winning comfortably and controlling possession easily to rack up high pass rate, high completion rate (Southampton, West Ham).

But it's interesting that other players like Ox don't show up in the same way. Naby is exceptional. He's a great player to have in the squad. He won't play every game because we don't want him to. We don't want anyone to!
Rotation is a thing and it's greatest use is in protecting player burn out through the season. 
Periodisation is also a thing. No player is ready to perform at the level demanded by Klopp without careful tuning and warming up to speed otherwise more soft-tissue injuries occur. Naby is in this process... warming up.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

But it's interesting that other players like Ox don't show up in the same way. Naby is exceptional. He's a great player to have in the squad. He won't play every game because we don't want him to. We don't want anyone to!
Rotation is a thing and it's greatest use is in protecting player burn out through the season. 
Periodisation is also a thing. No player is ready to perform at the level demanded by Klopp without careful tuning and warming up to speed otherwise more soft-tissue injuries occur. Naby is in this process... warming up.

It is interesting, no doubt about that. I just think it's also misleading and I wouldn't draw huge conclusions from per 90 stats about a player who has played c. 350 minutes ... I mean it only goes into it four times! And that's before you get into how coming on as a sub can distort this.

Fwiw I'd expect Keita to show up highly on touches/passes per 90 regardless because I don't agree with that particular criticism particularly (although I think there have been occasions of it - Wolves away in the cup last season springs to mind - and I do think he lacks personality on the pitch at present), and he's a give and go midfielder. But I do think using per 90 stats will exaggerate how far ahead he is of our other options in this regard.

[JackWard33]

Do you not think per 90 numbers are massively misleading when talking about a player with a) a small sample size and b) a player who knows he is unlikely to play the full 90 or is coming on as a sub so can put more into his minutes?

He's generally either come on when we are losing/drawing (Villa/United) with a clear emphasis on him to create (which he did very well at United), or when we are winning comfortably and controlling possession easily to rack up high pass rate, high completion rate (Southampton, West Ham).

Sub effects are a distorter of numbers you're right but only for subs coming on (its easier to be productive on the ball)
I don't see how you could measure 'a player who knows they're going to be subbed' because its only rehabbing players that get told this in most cases - its a bit of a stretch to say Keita often thinks he's coming off so plays better for 65 minutes not least because he'd be playing really well for two thirds of the game so you'd be stepping on your own point. Seems like its unlikely to be an effect.

The numbers I'm using are over 19 X 90 mins in the league - that's a pretty significant sample. His numbers are slightly elevated this year but the pattern is the same.
The point of my post was just that you can't put up the numbers he has on and off the ball and not be a very good / elite midfielder let alone be someone who isn't demanding / getting on the ball.

Numbers wise he's played extremely well for us when he's been on the pitch. You can argue other factors are more important than numbers - in my view its an uphill climb because his production on and off the ball are so good but have at it..... 

[JackWard33]

It is interesting, no doubt about that. I just think it's also misleading and I wouldn't draw huge conclusions from per 90 stats about a player who has played c. 350 minutes ... I mean it only goes into it five times!

You can't - to be clear as I've posted above we have about 19 x 90 mins on him just in the league (more in other comps)

[Ghost Town]

So we can't draw inferences about him maybe being good from the (relatively) small amount of minutes he has played, but we can draw inferences about him maybe not being good from the (relatively) small amount of minutes he has played?

Lol

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Numbers wise he's played extremely well for us when he's been on the pitch. You can argue other factors are more important than numbers - in my view its an uphill climb because his production on and off the ball are so good but have at it.....

Hmm. Not sure it's quite as uphill as you think it is Jack. I think we know there are factors more important than raw numbers when it comes to assessing Liverpool's midfield, otherwise Gini Wijnaldum would have been dropped a long time ago and Keita would be starting more games.

When we use a midfield of Wijnaldum, Henderson, Fabinho, they know - and have almost certainly been instructed - they aren't there to create primarily. They're providing a platform for our full-backs and forwards.

When Keita is chosen he knows he has been chosen to create/combine. Whether this is fair or the best usage of his skillset is another matter; it's the reality he finds himself in at present, in my opinion because Klopp doesn't fully trust him to provide that aforementioned platform yet, and may never do given his lack of height/physicality. He almost certainly starts a higher proportion of games against bottom half sides who we have c. 70% possession against than our other options, which is another distorter to consider.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

So we can't draw inferences about him maybe being good from the (relatively) small amount of minutes he has played, but we can draw inferences about him maybe not being good from the (relatively) small amount of minutes he has played?

Lol

You're a quick study.

[JackWard33]

Hmm. Not sure it's quite as uphill as you think it is Jack. I think we know there are factors more important than raw numbers when it comes to assessing Liverpool's midfield, otherwise Gini Wijnaldum would have been dropped a long time ago and Keita would be starting more games.

When we use a midfield of Wijnaldum, Henderson, Fabinho, they know - and have almost certainly been instructed - they aren't there to create primarily. They're providing a platform for our full-backs and forwards.

When Keita is chosen he knows he has been chosen to create/combine. Whether this is fair or the best usage of his skillset is another matter; it's the reality he finds himself in at present, in my opinion because Klopp doesn't fully trust him to provide that aforementioned platform yet, and may never do given his lack of height/physicality. He almost certainly starts a higher proportion of games against bottom half sides who we have c. 70% possession against than our other options, which is another distorter to consider.

Think Klopp recently argued he's played Keita more often than not when he's been fit (close to verbatim) so the trust thing is an interesting narrative which people are trying to spin.

From this post I'm not sure what you're arguing now as you've argued different things about him ... a few pages ago you were saying he didn't cut off space/fill gaps well off the ball so he wasn't good enough off the ball...

So you're now saying Keita is chosen to create / combine and he's doing a bad job of that or a good one?
And he's good defensively when doing that job or not good?

[CasinoJack]

Just looked at your post history and you may not have said that phrase but you've certainly massively given the impression that you have.


What did Klopp tell you mate? Share with us your convo...

I have criticised his performance on Monday, and like I've said we can all have opinions and there seems to be a lot across all social forums that Keita didn't have the greatest of games.

As regards to your second quote, makes you look quite daft and immature to be honest.

The manager hooked him, 55 minutes into a game we were losing, didn't give him a chance to get us back into the game, he made the change straight after they scored, not 10 minutes as Klopp sometimes has done in the past when we've conceded, I don't need to have a conversation with Klopp to type that, it's what we have all seen over the last 5 years.

[CraigDS]

As regards to your second quote, makes you look quite daft and immature to be honest.

It was supposed to do so, as it was highlighting the ridiculousness of trying to tell us what Klopp thinks when you've no insight into it at all.

The manager hooked him, 55 minutes into a game we were losing, didn't give him a chance to get us back into the game, he made the change straight after they scored, not 10 minutes as Klopp sometimes has done in the past when we've conceded, I don't need to have a conversation with Klopp to type that, it's what we have all seen over the last 5 years.

I could just as much argue he was giving Ox time to fully warm up as he had noticed a tactical error in the way Moyes had set up their midfield and he wished to take advantage of that with the maximum time possible on the clock. This doesn't mean he thought Keita was having a bad game, but that we can only have 11 players on the pitch and he felt to take advantage of this tactical error a player on our bench had better attributes to do so.

[CasinoJack]

It was supposed to do so, as it was highlighting the ridiculousness of trying to tell us what Klopp thinks when you've no insight into it at all.

I could just as much argue he was giving Ox time to fully warm up as he had noticed a tactical error in the way Moyes had set up their midfield and he wished to take advantage of that with the maximum time possible on the clock. This doesn't mean he thought Keita was having a bad game, but that we can only have 11 players on the pitch and he felt to take advantage of this tactical error a player on our bench had better attributes to do so.

Ok Klopp must of thought he was outstanding, we've just gone 2-1 down to a team in the bottom three, I know lets drag the player off who's going to get us back into the game.

You could try and argue as much as you want but it's not correct, why would he need to give Ox time to fully warm up? If that was the case he would of had him out there at HT warming up, but he wasn't. Look get over it, he had a poor game wasn't having an impact on the game as was hooked. Ox came on, sparked life into the team and we went on to win. Move on and enjoy the rest of your day.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Ok Klopp must of thought he was outstanding, we've just gone 2-1 down to a team in the bottom three, I know lets drag the player off who's going to get us back into the game.

You could try and argue as much as you want but it's not correct, why would he need to give Ox time to fully warm up? If that was the case he would of had him out there at HT warming up, but he wasn't. Look get over it, he had a poor game wasn't having an impact on the game as was hooked. Ox came on, sparked life into the team and we went on to win. Move on and enjoy the rest of your day.

I wish you'd stayed in the post match thread.

Fact is he didn't have a poor 1st half & no amount of revisionism will change that.

[CraigDS]

Ok Klopp must of thought he was outstanding,

I never suggested he thought he was outstanding.

we've just gone 2-1 down to a team in the bottom three, I know lets drag the player off who's going to get us back into the game.

Drag is adding dramatics to attempt to back up your opinion. There was no dragging.

You could try and argue as much as you want but it's not correct,

Well, not correct to you, but then who really cares about that.

why would he need to give Ox time to fully warm up? If that was the case he would of had him out there at HT warming up, but he wasn't.

The guy has had a career threatening injury, so...

Plus you never know, he may have wanted to, you know, go over the tactics with the team at half time and given Ox was going to be integral to that he may have needed to be there.

Look get over it, he had a poor game wasn't having an impact on the game as was hooked. Ox came on, sparked life into the team and we went on to win. Move on and enjoy the rest of your day.

OK CasinoKlopp, thanks for the explanation of why you made the decisions you did on Monday. We're so lucky you can find the time between sessions at Melwood to come on RAWK.

[CasinoJack]

I never suggested he thought he was outstanding.


Drag is adding dramatics to attempt to back up your opinion. There was no dragging.


Well, not correct to you, but then who really cares about that.


The guy has had a career threatening injury, so...

Plus you never know, he may have wanted to, you know, go over the tactics with the team at half time and given Ox was going to be integral to that he may have needed to be there.


OK CasinoKlopp, thanks for the explanation of why you made the decisions you did on Monday. We're so lucky you can find the time between sessions at Melwood to come on RAWK.

Look how fucking pathetic you are at someone thinking a player has had a bad game and was rightfully dragged, yes dragged, because to me if you've just conceded and are losing a substitution that quickly would be a dragging.

[CraigDS]

Look how fucking pathetic you are at someone thinking a player has had a bad game

Not arsed if you think he had a poor game. More arsed you're attempting to tell us what Klopp thought like you're some sort of german manager medium.

[classycarra]

The manager hooked him, 55 minutes into a game we were losing, didn't give him a chance to get us back into the game, he made the change straight after they scored, not 10 minutes as Klopp sometimes has done in the past when we've conceded, I don't need to have a conversation with Klopp to type that, it's what we have all seen over the last 5 years.

Look how fucking pathetic you are at someone thinking a player has had a bad game and was rightfully dragged, yes dragged, because to me if you've just conceded and are losing a substitution that quickly would be a dragging.

Klopp must really not rate Mane and Salah then, after dragging/hooking them off against Atletico

[Ghost Town]

I stand by my previous contention that some people seek every opportunity to make tits of themselves

[CasinoJack]

I wish you'd stayed in the post match thread.

Fact is he didn't have a poor 1st half & no amount of revisionism will change that.

Again, please tell me how he was good? He did what? He moved the ball side to side, he played a 1-2 on the edge of their box and what else? The other chances we created in that first half which weren't really clear cut came from Trent and set pieces. You can paint whatever picture you want about his first half, but I don't think he was great and again put whatever spin on it you want, we were better, created more chances and scored more goals when he went off and Ox came on.

[CasinoJack]

Klopp must really not rate Mane and Salah then, after dragging/hooking them off against Atletico

Yeah forgot Klopp dragged Salah and Mane in the 4th minute, Keita was brought off (won't call it dragging or hooked as its upsetting some of you) as soon as West Ham scored, fact.

[CraigDS]

fact.

Mate your manager medium skills are on the bend, you're channeling Rafa now.