Topic: The Klopp Template

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'm reflecting on this Klopp template thing. Should we include in our discussions the amount of running and psychological energy that is required as part of the Klopp template? I think it's timely to bring it up at the very tail end of the season because, in my opinion, we are witnessing Geggenpressing flip from a net gain to a net loss strategy. Klopp has lost 5 finals in a row now (happy to stand corrected). Klopp's players are expected to run a lot of kilometres during a match (happy to stand corrected: I couldn't find 17/18 stats on this but in 16/17 we dominated the list of players covering more than 11km per game).  I think there's a relationship here that ought to be looked into. There's nothing wrong with losing your edge at the end of a long season if you've achieved some huge successes during your peak fitness period. Unless.........unless you have a very big cup final or a crunch league fixture, or both.

Does the template need to cover depth, squad stamina and timing of peak fitness, as well as looking at which specific players best fit the groove?

Klopp's play-style and training methods requires good squad depth, because otherwise recovery is at a minimum, which is why we're seeing some fatigue now. But it's a trade-off. Rotate early and often, get good results then, but possibly suffer later. Or - smaller squad, less training (but more focused and global), great gains from the middle to end of season, but you're way behind everyone else at the beginning.

There's no perfect way, but a coach like Klopp who values workrate in training and games, needs a decent-sized squad of similar quality, to work with.

[Eeyore]

Klopp's play-style and training methods requires good squad depth, because otherwise recovery is at a minimum, which is why we're seeing some fatigue now. But it's a trade-off. Rotate early and often, get good results then, but possibly suffer later. Or - smaller squad, less training (but more focused and global), great gains from the middle to end of season, but you're way behind everyone else at the beginning.

There's no perfect way, but a coach like Klopp who values workrate in training and games, needs a decent-sized squad of similar quality, to work with.

The issue for me was offloading Coutinho and Sturridge in January and not replacing them. This is most evident for me in Mane who was the least used of the fab four coming on the strongest late in the season. We need a squad that allows Klopp the luxury of resting any of the likes of Salah, Bobby, Mane or latterly  Coutinho without a massive drop off in quality effecting the team.

[Samie]

So Al what you're saying is we should get both Fekir and Ousmane Dembele? 

[daggerdoo]

The issue for me was offloading Coutinho and Sturridge in January and not replacing them. This is most evident for me in Mane who was the least used of the fab four coming on the strongest late in the season. We need a squad that allows Klopp the luxury of resting any of the likes of Salah, Bobby, Mane or latterly  Coutinho without a massive drop off in quality effecting the team.

Ideally that would have happened but i'm not sure we had much room to manoeuvre with player availability. Studge, i don't think was really gonna feature for obvious reasons, but an extra attacking player would have been good or midfielder actually.

[McSquared]

Keita and Fekir as our #8's with our front three? Sweet Mother of Jaysus! Have mercy on all other souls.

Throw in a dembele will ya

[Samie]

Hmm, Diawara, Naby's Guinean mate has been linked. Our mate Sega just tweeted something random. 

🇬🇳 ❤️#liverpool

[BrandoLFC]

I would need to look into this more but I wonder if we're not looking at this through our own rose-tinted glasses on what we want LFC to become or think it should be without realizing what it already is.  As just from watching other teams around us, nobody is firing on all cylinders in these last couple of weeks.  Is it realistic to be able to have the same output from week 1 to 38?  Between the ManU game and the Chelsea game we were very consistent in creating enough chances to expect 2 goals a game.  The ManU game should have been off-set by at least 1 if not 2 penalties and last weekend we just clearly were not at our best.  But at the same token neither was Chelsea.  They didn't create any more than we did and simply got the luck that we did not, say if Mane got his shot off or Solanke got his header on target.

Historically you rely on 14 players barring suspension and injury.  Those 14 get the majority of minutes.  Yet we talk like somehow we're going to be rolling out with a squad 18 deep where they all could be starters, for a variety of reasons that just isn't likely to happen.  And even now for all those that bemoan our short comings the team from a statistical standpoint is one of the best in the world.  Like seriously Klopp has created a team that belongs in the same breath with any other team whether you want to believe it or not.

I think for the most part we've had one of the unluckiest seasons I can remember.  At least since the 10/11 season where we just hit the woodwork non-stop.  Another year of getting better, another year of adding more quality players and yet the margins are so small that we could be having this exact same conversation again.  I certainly hope not, guess we'll see.

[Marty McFly]

We’ve had ridiculously bad luck with injuries in midfield

And ridiculously good luck with injuries in attack

*touches wood*

[Djozer]

I would need to look into this more but I wonder if we're not looking at this through our own rose-tinted glasses on what we want LFC to become or think it should be without realizing what it already is.  As just from watching other teams around us, nobody is firing on all cylinders in these last couple of weeks.  Is it realistic to be able to have the same output from week 1 to 38?  Between the ManU game and the Chelsea game we were very consistent in creating enough chances to expect 2 goals a game.  The ManU game should have been off-set by at least 1 if not 2 penalties and last weekend we just clearly were not at our best.  But at the same token neither was Chelsea.  They didn't create any more than we did and simply got the luck that we did not, say if Mane got his shot off or Solanke got his header on target.

Historically you rely on 14 players barring suspension and injury.  Those 14 get the majority of minutes.  Yet we talk like somehow we're going to be rolling out with a squad 18 deep where they all could be starters, for a variety of reasons that just isn't likely to happen.  And even now for all those that bemoan our short comings the team from a statistical standpoint is one of the best in the world.  Like seriously Klopp has created a team that belongs in the same breath with any other team whether you want to believe it or not.

I think for the most part we've had one of the unluckiest seasons I can remember.  At least since the 10/11 season where we just hit the woodwork non-stop.  Another year of getting better, another year of adding more quality players and yet the margins are so small that we could be having this exact same conversation again.  I certainly hope not, guess we'll see.

I think you make a lot of good points here, but do you not think that Klopp's high energy brand of football demands more from his players than almost any other manager, resulting in greater levels of fatigue and hence possibly necessitating a slightly larger squad than the average? This might also be exacerbated by football in general becoming more demanding physically, particularly in the Premier League, so the historical norm might not be the best yardstick. I don't know. I think we're ok for numbers except for the front three, where we obviously need at least one better backup/rotation option than those currently available.

[BrandoLFC]

I think you make a lot of good points here, but do you not think that Klopp's high energy brand of football demands more from his players than almost any other manager, resulting in greater levels of fatigue and hence possibly necessitating a slightly larger squad than the average? This might also be exacerbated by football in general becoming more demanding physically, particularly in the Premier League, so the historical norm might not be the best yardstick. I don't know. I think we're ok for numbers except for the front three, where we obviously need at least one better backup/rotation option than those currently available.

I don't have the perfect answer to this.  Our squad is already huge, we have 15? players out on loan as well.  Klopp has who he trusts and that goes for most other managers, that more than likely won't change. 

But if we look at the other teams then why aren't they playing better than us?

ManU - Just lost to Brighton and didn't even create one clear cut chance at home in 90 minutes
Spurs - Numbers down across the board ever since Kane came back from injury with some poor results
Chelsea - Couldn't score against a Huddersfield team that didn't want to leave it's own box, didn't create one single clear chance against us the game before
Real Madrid - Gave up 3 goals and lost to Sevilla

Shouldn't they be fresher with better results as their managers demand less of their players physically and mentally? 
If their players are fresher why aren't they dominating these games? 

[PoetryInMotion]

Diawara is pretty good. He's good technically & physically, but it's hard to judge how good he's tactically and whether he'll meet Klopp's requirements there as he hasn't been a regular at Napoli. But a fantastic prospect, and I would be so much more excited about him than someone like Ndidi who's fairly limited technically & tactically.

[PoetryInMotion]

I don't have the perfect answer to this.  Our squad is already huge, we have 15? players out on loan as well.  Klopp has who he trusts and that goes for most other managers, that more than likely won't change. 

But if we look at the other teams then why aren't they playing better than us?

ManU - Just lost to Brighton and didn't even create one clear cut chance at home in 90 minutes
Spurs - Numbers down across the board ever since Kane came back from injury with some poor results
Chelsea - Couldn't score against a Huddersfield team that didn't want to leave it's own box, didn't create one single clear chance against us the game before
Real Madrid - Gave up 3 goals and lost to Sevilla

Shouldn't they be fresher with better results as their managers demand less of their players physically and mentally? 
If their players are fresher why aren't they dominating these games?

The counter-question would be why are we looking to our side & below? Shouldn't we look above & see the strength in depth that sides like City & Barca have. Barca have not even used a talent like Dembele that much. City have the likes of B. Silva on the bench.

I think strength in depth is the next step we should be taking & it will be crucial next season.

[Djozer]

I don't have the perfect answer to this.  Our squad is already huge, we have 15? players out on loan as well.  Klopp has who he trusts and that goes for most other managers, that more than likely won't change. 

But if we look at the other teams then why aren't they playing better than us?

ManU - Just lost to Brighton and didn't even create one clear cut chance at home in 90 minutes
Spurs - Numbers down across the board ever since Kane came back from injury with some poor results
Chelsea - Couldn't score against a Huddersfield team that didn't want to leave it's own box, didn't create one single clear chance against us the game before
Real Madrid - Gave up 3 goals and lost to Sevilla

Shouldn't they be fresher with better results as their managers demand less of their players physically and mentally? 
If their players are fresher why aren't they dominating these games?

I don't have the perfect answer either 

But as to why they aren't performing better than us, I'd guess it's at least partially down to fatigue as well. With Man U and Spurs, they may have more options than us in some areas but their key players tend to play as often as ours, and even more so in cases. I've heard that Kane and Eriksen look knackered, and the same goes for Lukaku and Matic. City are the same, and I've read that some of their players aren't looking anywhere near as fresh as earlier in the season, but their backup is of a higher standard than our own. As for Chelsea, it seems like there's a fair amount of behind the scenes uncertainty there with Conte, and they just don't seem that bothered, though in fairness their recent form is better than ours, tonight excepted. With regards to Real, I have no fucking idea - they're just a really strange team this season!

As to why we're faltering now, as opposed to earlier in the season? If I had to guess I'd say that our European commitments have a large part to do with it. Right the way through the season we've struggled in games that come after a midweek European tie - I think that this may be largely down to our front three being so key, and us hardly being able to rotate them at all. I reckon if we could get just one player in who could rotate with them with less of a drop off in quality than we currently have, then we might be in much better shape for next year. I agree that you need a core group of players that will expect to play the majority of games, but I also think that our backup, specifically in the forward areas, is just not quite good enough at present. I'm expecting us to address that in some form or another this summer.

[RayPhilAlan]

The issue for me was offloading Coutinho and Sturridge in January and not replacing them. This is most evident for me in Mane who was the least used of the fab four coming on the strongest late in the season. We need a squad that allows Klopp the luxury of resting any of the likes of Salah, Bobby, Mane or latterly  Coutinho without a massive drop off in quality effecting the team.

Yes, I agree. We took the calculated risk that after regular rotating in the first part of the season we could get through the second half with just the three attackers.

I've assumed our reason for doing so was the same as not buying a 2nd choice cb in the summer when VVD wasn't available - we'd rather wait and get our first choice than fill up the squad with a player we don't really want.

It was always a risk though. To my mind, reaching the CL final with this squad shows it was a risk worth taking.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think you make a lot of good points here, but do you not think that Klopp's high energy brand of football demands more from his players than almost any other manager, resulting in greater levels of fatigue and hence possibly necessitating a slightly larger squad than the average? This might also be exacerbated by football in general becoming more demanding physically, particularly in the Premier League, so the historical norm might not be the best yardstick. I don't know. I think we're ok for numbers except for the front three, where we obviously need at least one better backup/rotation option than those currently available.

It's not the playing style - it's the training that goes with it; lots of running drills without the ball, double and sometimes triple sessions, depending on the part of the season, added to the high-energy play style, means players have little recovery time - so a larger squad than normal is probably needed.

[BrandoLFC]

The counter-question would be why are we looking to our side & below? Shouldn't we look above & see the strength in depth that sides like City & Barca have. Barca have not even used a talent like Dembele that much. City have the likes of B. Silva on the bench.

I think strength in depth is the next step we should be taking & it will be crucial next season.

Yet you didn't really address my point other than saying why Barca and ManC aren't included.  Well then why not Bayern or Juve as well?

For one, and I started going over this in the tactics thread, comparing anything with what ManC does is somewhat of a joke.  And with that said I would be of the opinion their performances have dropped as the year has gone on and that Bernardo chipped in with all of 6 goals.  Is he better than what we have on the bench?  Probably.  Is he worth what they paid for him?  I'd say no.

For two, I haven't watched enough of Barca to really make a comment.  Maybe you have but whenever I've watched them this year they've been pretty terrible unless Messi is on his game.  I almost don't think it matters who is out there for Barca as long as Messi is doing his thing plus using Dembele as an example of quality on the bench is pretty absurd.  How that lead to them winning or drawing every game in La Liga I have no idea.

I don't have the perfect answer either 

But as to why they aren't performing better than us, I'd guess it's at least partially down to fatigue as well. With Man U and Spurs, they may have more options than us in some areas but their key players tend to play as often as ours, and even more so in cases. I've heard that Kane and Eriksen look knackered, and the same goes for Lukaku and Matic. City are the same, and I've read that some of their players aren't looking anywhere near as fresh as earlier in the season, but their backup is of a higher standard than our own. As for Chelsea, it seems like there's a fair amount of behind the scenes uncertainty there with Conte, and they just don't seem that bothered, though in fairness their recent form is better than ours, tonight excepted. With regards to Real, I have no fucking idea - they're just a really strange team this season!

As to why we're faltering now, as opposed to earlier in the season? If I had to guess I'd say that our European commitments have a large part to do with it. Right the way through the season we've struggled in games that come after a midweek European tie - I think that this may be largely down to our front three being so key, and us hardly being able to rotate them at all. I reckon if we could get just one player in who could rotate with them with less of a drop off in quality than we currently have, then we might be in much better shape for next year. I agree that you need a core group of players that will expect to play the majority of games, but I also think that our backup, specifically in the forward areas, is just not quite good enough at present. I'm expecting us to address that in some form or another this summer.

My thoughts for now are that our midfield didn't contribute anywhere near enough goals during the season and that if they had a lot of draws would have been different irrespective of referee decisions.  We would then be looking at this in a whole new light in that City got really lucky in certain situations to make them have an unheard of league campaign but we should be comfortably behind them with no league worries and about to be in the CL final.  Instead we're sweating out the final games due to a lot of draws when the players were in mid-season form, not a faltering of a couple of games in the end. 

[rscanderlech]

Hmm, Diawara, Naby's Guinean mate has been linked. Our mate Sega just tweeted something random. 

It seems like the current generation of footballers no longer trusts its agents to do their job...

[BrandoLFC]

It's not the playing style - it's the training that goes with it; lots of running drills without the ball, double and sometimes triple sessions, depending on the part of the season, added to the high-energy play style, means players have little recovery time - so a larger squad than normal is probably needed.

Yet Klopp showed during this season he would give recovery time to as many players a possible during the initial build up.  I've read in multiple places where they would break up the squad into 4 groups depending on who was playing in the week, then the weekend, recovering and then returning from injury and all the tasks varied.  He wasn't asking the recovering players to run 1km and then counter-attack drill before another 1km I would hazard.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yet Klopp showed during this season he would give recovery time to as many players a possible during the initial build up.  I've read in multiple places where they would break up the squad into 4 groups depending on who was playing in the week, then the weekend, recovering and then returning from injury and all the tasks varied.  He wasn't asking the recovering players to run 1km and then counter-attack drill before another 1km I would hazard.

This is standard. But any work at all resets the recovery process. You don't recover unless you rest. So whereas some coaches will do a single session of high intensity per day, giving their players longer complete recovery times, other coaches will do two sessions per day, meaning the players can't begin their recovery until the end of the second session. It's not a method thing, but a time thing. Plus, if you're doing a counter-attack drill, that means you're sprinting, which further buggers your recovery time

[BrandoLFC]

This is standard. But any work at all resets the recovery process. You don't recover unless you rest. So whereas some coaches will do a single session of high intensity per day, giving their players longer complete recovery times, other coaches will do two sessions per day, meaning the players can't begin their recovery until the end of the second session. It's not a method thing, but a time thing. Plus, if you're doing a counter-attack drill, that means you're sprinting, which further buggers your recovery time

I have a hard time believing that players that need more recovery are forced to do running drills instead.  In every training pic every one on the team is wearing something such as this right?

http://statsports.com/viper-products/

I believe we even wear them during friendlies but I'm assuming their not allowed for actual game usage.  So the club would form a complete base line of the players optimal performance levels and spends millions of dollars to do so. Therefore during practice it probably becomes clear quite quickly who's at whatever point in their recovery right?  Yet Klopp just throws that all out the window on a whim because he wants the whole team to do intense two a days? 

I understand that we deal in generalities a lot but then when we really examine the question we should at least poke at some specifics.  So far in my understanding of Klopp at LFC he has an ideal but seems able to adjust to reality or time specific criteria rather easily whether that be adjustments in shape, tactics or squad.  I'd hazard a guess he probably will evolve some more next year, no?

So then does Klopp's methods require a bigger squad?  Right now I'd say no as he's just like any other manager in that they may rotate but there's a core squad that gets the majority of time. 
Does Klopp need to upgrade the squad?  Yes, our midfield has been an issue the entire season. 
Does that mean squad players 15-18 will be amazing?  I'd say no unless you think the current midfield players that may be shifted to the bench are amazing.

[Gnurglan]

We could do with some more depth. I understand it varies how many games a player can be expected to play in a season, but I wonder if there is a general 'red zone' when we should start to worry.

Out of nowhere, I decided to put the limit at 40 games and then check. The following players have taken part of 40 games or more for us this season, in all competitions:

Firmino 47+5= 52
Salah 47+3= 50
Wijnaldum 38+10= 48
Milner 25+21= 46
Mane 41+1= 42
AOC 21+21= 42 (excluding 4+0 for Arsenal)
Lovren 36+5= 41
———————————
Henderson 35+4 = 39
Can 34+3 = 37

Building on that, I suspect that players who make more sprints will be more vulnerable. In our case, following that line of thought, we should be mostly concerned with the front three and AOC. But if we look at AOC, we can see that he has as many starts as he has sub appearances under Klopp. This must be our way of making sure we don't overplay him. He got injured anyway, but not because of us overplaying him. Looking at the list above, I'd say we have a good distribution of games between our CMs.

But once more we come back to our front three. They have all not just played in more than 40 games. They are the only ones who have started in 40+ games. Salah in particular, having played the most minutes of all our players in the PL, surely must be in that 'red zone'. I suspect this summer's World Cup isn't ideal if we think of Salah's fitness preparations for next season.

[ANFIELDGATES]

Some great posts in this thread.No matter which way we go there's going to be pros n cons.A team like city should have won far more titles than they have.The outlay over 5 or 6 years has been massive with little in return.If you have a large squad then your also going to have a fair few players unhappy at not starting.If you sign a top player then he won't be happy getting the odd start.However if you only have a squad of 14 or 15 top players then you have to sacrifice the minor cups in order to challenge for the bigger ones. Hard to balance it out.

[clinical]

Diawara is pretty good. He's good technically & physically, but it's hard to judge how good he's tactically and whether he'll meet Klopp's requirements there as he hasn't been a regular at Napoli. But a fantastic prospect, and I would be so much more excited about him than someone like Ndidi who's fairly limited technically & tactically.

I think he'd be perfect to complete with Hendo for that role. He would probably be second choice for a bit but Hendo does have his injuries these days.

Can imagine him Mane and Keita all getting on well.

[Jookie]

The issue for me was offloading Coutinho and Sturridge in January and not replacing them. This is most evident for me in Mane who was the least used of the fab four coming on the strongest late in the season. We need a squad that allows Klopp the luxury of resting any of the likes of Salah, Bobby, Mane or latterly  Coutinho without a massive drop off in quality effecting the team.

This is where the injuries have played a role. I suspect that Lallana and AOC would have been the rotation options for the front 3 when the games come thick and fast. AOC and Lallana were both fit when we made the call to sell Coutinho and not bring in a replacement. At that point we had 6 midfield options (AOC, Lallana, Can, Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson) and 5 x front 3 options (Salah, Mane, Firmino, Ings and Solanke). Some players could provide options in a number of the positions. Putting AOC in the front 3 instead of Ings/Solanke seems a lower drop off to me. A bigger drop off than Coutinho I must say but anyone we bought will probably have been during their 'settling in' period.

11 players for 6 positions seems fair. Even if you discount Ings and Solanke, 9 players for 6 positions gives you plenty of room to rotate and cover for injuries. It's also 9 players who have gone through pre-season and/or had 4-5 months at least playing for Klopp and understanding his system. You can see through the way Klopp dealt with Robertson and AOC in the early stages that he is very unlikely to chuck someone in at the deep end without a pre-season with him. The thought may have been that the players we want to replace Coutinho were not available in January. For example if the 1st choice is Fekir at 60-70M, do you really think (a) Lyon would want to sell him in January when they had Europa League to play for and a CL place to secure, and (b) if we offered additional amount to the transfer to persuade them we wouldn't be looking at 90-100M at very least? The other option was going for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th choice option, knowing that with a settling in period they are only likely to fully contribute in the last 2-3 months of the season at most. Would you do this against the back drop of having 9-11 players already available for the 6 positions?

It's very easy to point at the decision not to replace Coutinho but there is a context there. Having Coutinho would have helped us immensely post January. The fact that he's not here is more on him rather than Klopp. Not buying someone in January was disappointing but I wouldn't be pointing fingers at anyone when you look at the context the decisions was made in.

[clinical]

The issue for me was offloading Coutinho and Sturridge in January and not replacing them. This is most evident for me in Mane who was the least used of the fab four coming on the strongest late in the season. We need a squad that allows Klopp the luxury of resting any of the likes of Salah, Bobby, Mane or latterly  Coutinho without a massive drop off in quality effecting the team.

Klopp won't allow this to happen again.

Fekir and a wide forward will come in now I feel.

We shouldn't need to gamble again. I mean the gamble truly isn't over yet either as worst case scenario on Sunday we don't get top 4 and the gamble will have failed, (unless we win CL)

Klopp isn't stupid. We've proven we can beat anyone now. Now it's time for a squad that shows we're back for good.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Diawara is pretty good. He's good technically & physically, but it's hard to judge how good he's tactically and whether he'll meet Klopp's requirements there as he hasn't been a regular at Napoli. But a fantastic prospect, and I would be so much more excited about him than someone like Ndidi who's fairly limited technically & tactically.

I'll be honest, I've seen little of Diawara. Seems to come on as a sub for Napoli a lot so it's hard to judge him. But this feels like a case of the understandable anti-Prem/pro-Europe bias when it comes to signing players to me. They're only six months apart in age and Ndidi's numbers are a lot more impressive. When I have seen Diawara... I just don't notice him do a whole lot, whereas Ndidi does at least impose himself.

I wouldn't particularly want either by the way

[Red_Rich]

Apart from a top class keeper and one more well top midfielder (on top of Keith) I think we’re only squad depth short of challenging for the league title.

We’ve proved we’ve got the beating of City. We just need quality in depth.

I’d love to sign players like  Vardy for example for backup to our frontline. I know he’s older but he’s still got bags of pace and finishes well. Much more suitable to our style than solanke or ings.

[SerbianScouser]

Apart from a top class keeper and one more well top midfielder (on top of Keith) I think we’re only squad depth short of challenging for the league title.

If City repeat the 95+ pts season not even the reinforcements above would be enough for us to make 20 pts improvement with CL obligations. City have skewed what people normally perceive as league challenge. If the title requirements get down to usual range of mid 80s then we can talk about it but my fear is that Pep has this league totally figured out and might potentially repeat their ridiculous points tally. Only time will tell.

[killer-heels]

If City repeat the 95+ pts season not even the reinforcements above would be enough for us to make 20 pts improvement with CL obligations. City have skewed what people normally perceive as league challenge. If the title requirements get down to usual range of mid 80s then we can talk about it but my fear is that Pep has this league totally figured out and might potentially repeat their ridiculous points tally. Only time will tell.

Its quite obvious that we need to be planning for a 90 point achievement. Mid-90's is very, very difficult but we need to be planning to get 90 points and as such we need a squad to do that.

I wouldn't even bother looking at the keeper now. I have been critical of Karius but he really has improved in terms of his command of the area. Id rather get a good centreback to address the issue of our current lack of robustness there and put the rest of our money towards a couple of quality attackers/creative midfielders. If we want to be getting 90 points then goals and creativity are getting us that.

[Red_Rich]

If City repeat the 95+ pts season not even the reinforcements above would be enough for us to make 20 pts improvement with CL obligations. City have skewed what people normally perceive as league challenge. If the title requirements get down to usual range of mid 80s then we can talk about it but my fear is that Pep has this league totally figured out and might potentially repeat their ridiculous points tally. Only time will tell.

Maybe he/they will, but they can’t win it every single season ... not in this league. To many challengers in the top six. Any of the top teams could put an amazing run together and storm ahead like they’ve done this year. It’s about having a deep squad to cope. I believe we need a bigger squad. Their squad can’t get any bigger, just swapped out for better quality. Our CL run has totally fucked our league position. I believe we’d have got 2nd otherwise.

[clinical]

Its quite obvious that we need to be planning for a 90 point achievement. Mid-90's is very, very difficult but we need to be planning to get 90 points and as such we need a squad to do that.

I wouldn't even bother looking at the keeper now. I have been critical of Karius but he really has improved in terms of his command of the area. Id rather get a good centreback to address the issue of our current lack of robustness there and put the rest of our money towards a couple of quality attackers/creative midfielders. If we want to be getting 90 points then goals and creativity are getting us that.

I think one of our weaknesses is goals from midfield. Lots of times and was clear against utd they knew if they can take our front 3 out of the game, which of course is no easy task, then we didn't really have a goal threat from anywhere else.

You'd hope Keita and Fekir add 20 goals a season from midfield. Those two would be game changers for us.

Agree with CB.

[killer-heels]

I think one of our weaknesses is goals from midfield. Lots of times and was clear against utd they knew if they can take our front 3 out of the game, which of course is no easy task, then we didn't really have a goal threat from anywhere else.

You'd hope Keita and Fekir add 20 goals a season from midfield. Those two would be game changers for us.

Agree with CB.

Oxlade-Chamberlain, Keita and any attacking midfield and forward/winger signings have to all be looking to score goals and a decent amount of them. They should also bring added creativity seeing as Oxlade-Chamberlain only really became established at the final stretch of the season and most of our draws have been in the first part of the season and the rest would all be new signings.

I wouldn't be fussed with centreback but Lovren, Matip etc. have all been quite injury prone. I also am not sure about the number 6 position that everyone talks about but again, Henderson's lack of robustness and Wijnaldum would be the only players who could play there.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I think one of our weaknesses is goals from midfield. Lots of times and was clear against utd they knew if they can take our front 3 out of the game, which of course is no easy task, then we didn't really have a goal threat from anywhere else.

You'd hope Keita and Fekir add 20 goals a season from midfield. Those two would be game changers for us.

Agree with CB.

Goals from midfield when our players are fit, are actually pretty solid. Can and Ox have ten goals between them, however Gini has gone down a notch since last year, perhaps because he's played in several roles in midfield and of course Lallana has been injured [he had scored 7 or 8 last year]

[Suareznumber7]

If City repeat the 95+ pts season not even the reinforcements above would be enough for us to make 20 pts improvement with CL obligations. City have skewed what people normally perceive as league challenge. If the title requirements get down to usual range of mid 80s then we can talk about it but my fear is that Pep has this league totally figured out and might potentially repeat their ridiculous points tally. Only time will tell.

What we need is for more then just 2 managers in the league to actually have the courage to play against a Pep led City.  The embarrassing cowardice of managers in this league who don’t allow their teams to leave their own penalty area is nothing short of amazing.  Pep doesn’t have this league figured out, the managers in this league (bar a couple) are terrified of everyone else realizing that they don’t have a clue as to what they are doing so they sit in to keep the score down and then blame the loss on City’s millions spent on players which covers the fact that, tactically, they are still stuck in the stone ages.

[Djozer]

My thoughts for now are that our midfield didn't contribute anywhere near enough goals during the season and that if they had a lot of draws would have been different irrespective of referee decisions.  We would then be looking at this in a whole new light in that City got really lucky in certain situations to make them have an unheard of league campaign but we should be comfortably behind them with no league worries and about to be in the CL final.  Instead we're sweating out the final games due to a lot of draws when the players were in mid-season form, not a faltering of a couple of games in the end.

I agree that our midfield could have scored more, and if they had then we'd probably have been higher in the league, likely far more comfortably in the top four and quite possibly above Utd; I genuinely believe that we are, at our top level, with our first choice team available, the second best team in the league - not necessarily player for player, but in conjunction with Klopp's tactics.

It has to be noted that we've had our most forward thinking CMs unavailable for large parts of the season though - Lallana, AOC and Coutinho have all been missed for large portions for various reasons. I'm hoping that with Keita in, AOC hopefully fit and Lallana back (although I do wonder whether he might be one to move on - think we'll have a surfeit of CMs next year without departures) we should see a large increase in goals coming from these areas next year. If Fekir comes and plays as an 8 at times, as some think he will, then that will be even more midfield goals, and he (or someone) will hopefully be able to give the front three a rest at appropriate points.

Will it be enough to catch City? It's possible, but I doubt it. History has shown that when a team has been as dominant as they have been in the league, they tend to retain their title the following season. I'm hopeful that we can be a lot closer though, and potentially go deeper in some of the cup competitions without looking quite as fucked by the end of the season.

[PoetryInMotion]

I'll be honest, I've seen little of Diawara. Seems to come on as a sub for Napoli a lot so it's hard to judge him. But this feels like a case of the understandable anti-Prem/pro-Europe bias when it comes to signing players to me. They're only six months apart in age and Ndidi's numbers are a lot more impressive. When I have seen Diawara... I just don't notice him do a whole lot, whereas Ndidi does at least impose himself.

I wouldn't particularly want either by the way

There's no Prem/non Prem angle from my end on this. My opinion is based on the fact that I've had my share of watching both the players and Diawara has a much better passing range and ball control than Nididi and he doesn't shy away from the challenges. I think this is important for Klopp. We cannot sacrifice ball retention and circulation for a pure battering ram - we need a bit of both and Diawara offers just that. And he has already played in a pressing side for Napoli. Plus, he's Guinean, he's going to get along well with Keita as well. There are a lot of plusses to getting Diawara and he's not remotely similar to Ndidi. Anyone who has watched them enough won't club them both under the same bracket, so the numbers to look for in both players is very different.

[jepovic]

If City repeat the 95+ pts season not even the reinforcements above would be enough for us to make 20 pts improvement with CL obligations. City have skewed what people normally perceive as league challenge. If the title requirements get down to usual range of mid 80s then we can talk about it but my fear is that Pep has this league totally figured out and might potentially repeat their ridiculous points tally. Only time will tell.

We hear this every spring, but it's been almost 10 years since a team defended the PL title.

[MobileBayRed]

I agree that our midfield could have scored more, and if they had then we'd probably have been higher in the league, likely far more comfortably in the top four and quite possibly above Utd; I genuinely believe that we are, at our top level, with our first choice team available, the second best team in the league - not necessarily player for player, but in conjunction with Klopp's tactics.

It has to be noted that we've had our most forward thinking CMs unavailable for large parts of the season though - Lallana, AOC and Coutinho have all been missed for large portions for various reasons. I'm hoping that with Keita in, AOC hopefully fit and Lallana back (although I do wonder whether he might be one to move on - think we'll have a surfeit of CMs next year without departures) we should see a large increase in goals coming from these areas next year. If Fekir comes and plays as an 8 at times, as some think he will, then that will be even more midfield goals, and he (or someone) will hopefully be able to give the front three a rest at appropriate points.

Will it be enough to catch City? It's possible, but I doubt it. History has shown that when a team has been as dominant as they have been in the league, they tend to retain their title the following season. I'm hopeful that we can be a lot closer though, and potentially go deeper in some of the cup competitions without looking quite as fucked by the end of the season.

Im not expecting a fully fit/match ready AOC until around Dec/Jan.  That maybe just the pessimist side of me, but I don't expect him 100% at the start of the season, and I expect they will bring him along slowly.   The interesting one is Lallana.  In some ways, it almost feels as if his window is closing a bit.  Hopefully he doesn't get abused physically by the England team this summer.  Would love to see him hit the ground running once August hits. 

[RogerTheRed]

With the need for the aditional wide men. Should we not remember how well Harry Wilson has done at Hull, buy one more (maybe Fekir) and give Harry a chance to develop? Then we could re-visit the centre forward position and consider what we require knowing Sturridge and Origi have probably gone and Solanke could go on loan. I know Brewster would come into this if he had remained fit but we may need another decent option to cover / rotate with Bobby. This would enable us to take domestic cups more seriously without nearly de-railing things as in 16/17.

[Caston]

We hear this every spring, but it's been almost 10 years since a team defended the PL title.

To be fair nobody has won it as easily as City in that time frame. I don't think they'll do as well next season, but it wouldn't surprise me if next seasons winner has to get 90+ points.