Topic: Respect

[L666KOP]

Well if I embarrassed myself by being told I'm a plastic fan with no heart because I don't support Liverpool then I'm not embarrassed at having embarrassed myself. If that makes sense.

I'm certainly not having a go at Scousers as that's where my family originated from many moons ago so I've still got family and many friends there. I'm not even having a go at Suarez. I'm simply saying that perhaps we fans (and we're all guilty of it aren't we) should not expect anything more from a player that to put in a decent shift when they play and train. We shouldn't expect loyalty, respect or anything else. Then we won't be disappointed when we don't get it.

I didn't quote you.

I quoted wickedbark.

[L666KOP]

I'd love to know what ambitions he has, because by my count he's whored himself out to clubs in five different countries, and clubs with wildly differing ambitions.

This is the reason, the only fucking reason.

He want's to move, he's a better player than the club are, he only has a short career, most of us get it.
I don't 'love' him, I'm pretty ambivalent as I explained to Alan_X. I'd rather he stayed, in fact, I'd probably swallow my knob and support him in the shirt even after what's gone on. Because I think it will be a while before it's worth us courting players even approaching his level again.

We have pretty much to a man stood by you, and defended your actions for every single misdemeanor. Why could you not just tell Brendan and your agent you wanted out ?

Instead you 'blame' the press, when in all honesty, it was your misdemeanors that attached them to you, then you are flattered by Arsenal, the perennial 'water treadders' then it's Champions League.

You should have realised by now Luis, that on the whole, Scousers are quite a tolerant bunch, and we've seen better/more influential players than you leave, when they return, pretty much every one of them gets a cheer and a chant. You won't, your lies, and agitatations this summer have seen to that.

[Solomon Grundy]

Him being a nutcase is a given.

But that's got fuck all to do with his behaviour this summer. It's not 'nutter' behaviour, it's 'agent and player lying to get a big move and with it more money' behaviour.

He didn't racially abuse Evra, that was bollocks. The furore over the bite was ridiculous. Thick of him, but ridiculous outcry. But we stand by him because he was fighting the cause, we take the rough with the smooth. What he's done this summer has completely tainted that. It didn't have to. He could have wanted a move, but kept his mouth shut so as not to alienate his current club. Not that difficult, didn't take a genius. Instead, him and his agent have decided to go all guns blazing. For some unfathomable reason. Instead of wanting a move abroad but being content enough to stay he's gone completely the other way, whoring himself and making him look desperate for a move. After everything, we deserved so much more. Even Torres wasn't this bad. Smack bang, transfer request gone.

If you're desperate to leave, grow a fucking pair and ask to leave. If you're not willing to do that, put a fucking sock in it and let your agent and the club sort it out behind closes doors.

The worst thing is, it puts a doubt in other players mind. Why does Suarez want to leave there, after all the support they've given him? Must be horrible there!

Absolutely spot on again mate. Especially the part in bold. Sick of people making excuses for his behaviour. "Ahh well he's got a screw loose, what else do you expect? Man up and quit moaning"... Honestly, what a load of fucking bollocks.

[Paul5star]

Absolutely spot on again mate. Especially the part in bold. Sick of people making excuses for his behaviour. "Ahh well he's got a screw loose, what else do you expect? Man up and quit moaning"... Honestly, what a load of fucking bollocks.

Don't forget he gave 100% on the pitch though...

thought that's what you're meant to do.

[Alan_X]

Yes I think he was wrong, of course he was wrong he bit someone on national TV how can that not be wrong? And yes I do think his punishment was excessive, but my point was I'm sure we all knew given the chance the FA and press would make an example of him, he just had to not give them that chance. I defended him against the punishment, I supported him, I turn up to watch matches, I sing his name, we sing louder and more often when opposition fans or the press were getting on his back. He got unconditional support from most match going fans, but most would admit a lot of what he done was silly.

You seem to be happy to ridicule people for feeling any kind of emotion over all this, I think feeling nothing is much sadder.

I'm not ridiculing you - just trying to point out the lack of logic in your position. You didn't support Suarez  - you didn't care about him as a person, or about his feelings on the matter. You didn't show the man any respect - you supported the number 7 shirt, not Luis Suarez. It's as cynical a position as you claim his to be. Did it not cross your mind as you were singing his name that he might understand that in a way that you can't seem to grasp.

A little role play might help:

Suarez: I admit I bit him but I don't deserve a ten game ban...
You: yes you do, and you're a stupid prick for doing it and ruining the end of the season...
Suarez: but... it was obviously an excessive punishment... Defoe got fuck all...
You: Sorry, it's your fault for doing it on camera... you're just a stupid prick... but I'll still sing your name at the match... as long as you keep scoring... and that racist thing... you shouldn't have done that either...
Suarez: but it was another stitch up!...
You: Really?... I'm not sure mate... but bang a couple in and I'll support you...
Suarez: Wouldn't 'supporting' me involve accepting my side of the story?...
You: Nah... made up my mind me... shut your gob and get on the pitch... and mind you show me some respect for singing your name... We're the best supporters in the land you know  - we deserve respect because you may be a lying, stupid, racist but we're willing to forgive you...
Suarez: But I didn't deserve....

For the avoidance of doubt 'You' is not you - it could be any one of many on here.

As for having no emotion - where did you get that idea? I am as passionate as the next fan and I will be really sorry to see him go. I'll sing his name as loud as anyone else because he wears the Liverpool shirt and when he's on the pitch I've never seen anything less than 100% passion for the game. That may be because he loves us as fans, or loves the club, or because he's a professional, or because he just loves playing football. What the fuck does it matter? The idea that a player has to have a special relationship with the fans is romantic bollocks. I want winners on the pitch not a mutual masturbation society. The Liverpool I grew up with was a big red machine. We won things and at the end of the season all the medals meant fuck all because it was all about the next season. And players came and went. Players we loved and some who loved us.

There are plenty of players who I have a lot of affection for but I'm just not going to act like a tart and get upset because a professional footballer might be transferred in the transfer window.

[Historical Fool]

Im with you on this one like Alan....why does it always have to be Liverpool(or Suarez in particular) that the FA decide to make an example of?.

It's patently not. Plenty of high profile players at high profile clubs have done things that the FA have decided to make an example of. The sooner we stop with this why always me mentality, and looking at the root cause (hint: putting ourselves in the firing line) the better it will be for us I suspect.

It's a self fulfilling cycle. Someone does wrong, we feel compelled to back it, we make publicly embarrassing gaffes in the public eye that crucially show no contrition, we insist we're right in front of the objective world, then what is the world supposed to think? That we've learnt not to do it again? Obviously not and obviously the point will be hammered home the next chance they get.

It's all avoidable is all I'm saying. And if the fans are so important as many on here think they are, then it starts from the fans up.

Either way, sooner or later it'll be someone else's turn, if we avoid doing anything that contravenes the laws of the game as set out in black and white. It's really that simple.

[se9R.F.L]

I'm not ridiculing you - just trying to point out the lack of logic in your position. You didn't support Suarez  - you didn't care about him as a person, or about his feelings on the matter. You didn't show the man any respect - you supported the number 7 shirt, not Luis Suarez. It's as cynical a position as you claim his to be. Did it not cross your mind as you were singing his name that he might understand that in a way that you can't seem to grasp.

A little role play might help:

Suarez: I admit I bit him but I don't deserve a ten game ban...
You: yes you do, and you're a stupid prick for doing it and ruining the end of the season...
Suarez: but... it was obviously an excessive punishment... Defoe got fuck all...
You: Sorry, it's your fault for doing it on camera... you're just a stupid prick... but I'll still sing your name at the match... as long as you keep scoring... and that racist thing... you shouldn't have done that either...
Suarez: but it was another stitch up!...
You: Really?... I'm not sure mate... but bang a couple in and I'll support you...
Suarez: Wouldn't 'supporting' me involve accepting my side of the story?...
You: Nah... made up my mind me... shut your gob and get on the pitch... and mind you show me some respect for singing your name... We're the best supporters in the land you know  - we deserve respect because you may be a lying, stupid, racist but we're willing to forgive you...
Suarez: But I didn't deserve....

For the avoidance of doubt 'You' is not you - it could be any one of many on here.

As for having no emotion - where did you get that idea? I am as passionate as the next fan and I will be really sorry to see him go. I'll sing his name as loud as anyone else because he wears the Liverpool shirt and when he's on the pitch I've never seen anything less than 100% passion for the game. That may be because he loves us as fans, or loves the club, or because he's a professional, or because he just loves playing football. What the fuck does it matter? The idea that a player has to have a special relationship with the fans is romantic bollocks. I want winners on the pitch not a mutual masturbation society. The Liverpool I grew up with was a big red machine. We won things and at the end of the season all the medals meant fuck all because it was all about the next season. And players came and went. Players we loved and some who loved us.

There are plenty of players who I have a lot of affection for but I'm just not going to act like a tart and get upset because a professional footballer might be transferred in the transfer window.

When I grow up I want to be Alan X.

Had a wicked post all written out on the last suarez thread but by the time I pressed send it was locked. Was gutted but Alan says it better than I ever could.

[El Lobo]

Trophies i guess???....but you know what.....i`d rather earn a trophy than have one bought for me.

Plus I'm sure we can all spot the irony of wanting to win trophies and then flashing your knickers at Arsenal

[subroc]

Don't forget he gave 100% on the pitch though...

thought that's what you're meant to do.

He's also meant to comply with the contract extnesiont hat he signed as well instead of agitating throught he press for a move, and refusing to issue a transfer request to do that and then to leave it to the agent to sort it out with the club. But no, he uses interviews to put himself in the shop window and to alienate himself from the club and does not issue a transcer request - of course to give a tranfer request would mean forfeiting all those unearned wages and contract bonuses over the course of the contract. By that very action, Suarez prioves that he is not ust after a nicer environment and more trophies but also much more money. That as usual with most of these footballers, is the bottom line...

[subroc]

Hang on a minute. Did you defend him because he was a Liverpool player or because you thought the racism allegations were false and a blatant witch hunt by the FA? And did you believe that the biting incident deserved a ten game ban or like me, that it should have been a red card and standard three game ban?

Because if you believe he's a racist who called Evra a n****r and that he deserved a ten game ban for appalling behaviour... err... how exactly have you 'defended' him. 

I didn't get into the 'muck' with Suarez. The racist charge was a pile of wank and the case was a stitch up from start to finish. And I don't think 'biting' (that didn't even break the skin) is worse than a deliberate career ending challenge or elbow to the face.

Alan X, I completely agree with your words in bold - both then and now. If I had thought that the racism allegations were true, the fact that he was a liverpool player wouldnt absolve him at all IMHO and I would not support such a person. I also fully agree that his bite was not worse than many over physical challenges that are done recklessly - in fact I said words almost identical to what you wrote there. I agree that the punishmetn was unjustly and unfairly harsh in both instances.

However, Suarez put the club in the PR doghouse by his lack of wisdom and self-control. We have had many players from other countries and from Latin America. We have never had a player who has caused himself to become such a infamous celebrity for the wrong as well as the right reasons as Suarez has.

Calling a black player who is in no wise his friend and who has already clashed with him in that match and who plays for United to boot, by the word he used, was incredibly unwise. Not insisting to shake Evra's hand when the club has already ordered him to do so to try to end the PR furore was unwise as well as a loss of self control. Biting another player after he has already been made unfairly to become perhaps the most despised player in Premiership football as well as the most penalised in recent memory, was an even more egregious loss of self control and lack of wisdom pasrticualrly after Suarez has already gotten himself in such trouble perviously and knew that he was a maked man with the media and with the FA.

if he had exercised caution and more self-control at those times, the club would not have found itself embroiled in some very unwelcome and unnecessary controversies. Despite his loose cannon tbehaviour,  the club and the fans fully supported every single time it happened. Dalglish in particular went out in a limb for him and the PR gaffes he made in doing so must have contributed to his sacking int he end aalong with the bad transfer decisions and poor results.

Given the media storm his unwise actions ahve created, the degree of support he has received from the club and fans is unprecedented. One can only compare the treatment meted out to Diouf for example whose spitting incident never caused him to receive similar support.

I am simply saying that the club and the fans deserve better treatment from him if he wanted to leave. There is a right way of handling this and it has been paved by so many players over the years amnd the agent would have known this. Keep quiet, let the agent sort it out. The fans would not hold it agaisnt him had he acted with that kind of drespect, ecorum and class.

[subroc]

The idea that a player has to have a special relationship with the fans is romantic bollocks. I want winners on the pitch not a mutual masturbation society. The Liverpool I grew up with was a big red machine. We won things and at the end of the season all the medals meant fuck all because it was all about the next season. And players came and went. Players we loved and some who loved us.

There are plenty of players who I have a lot of affection for but I'm just not going to act like a tart and get upset because a professional footballer might be transferred in the transfer window.

If we were all aliens from the planet Vulcan in Star Trek, we may be able to have such an attitude as you espouse but then again, we would probably find football illogical and find doing quantum pnysics calculations more entertaining...I myself used to say what you are saying there, but this controversy has caused me to realise that my suggestns were unrealistic and just plain slly because by virtue of being a fan, we have to have heroes to cheer on and it is impossible to be a fan and not to creatre the mythical heroes in playres, managers or even boot room members.

Surely, you cannot be saying that the Liverpool fans of the late 60's and 70's did not form special relationships with players and managers? After all, one of them is the rgeatest legend ever int he club and has a statue of him erected - Shankly. He is to this day unoversally lauded and respected and his quotes are still cited frequently. What about Dalglish - the greatest hero among all Liverpool  players of all time to this day - and Rush and Aldridge and Yeats, and St John and keegan etc etc.? When Keegan declared he was leaving, what did that do among the fans?

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Years ago I would have summoned the pretend anger at a player wanting to leave for better things and trying to get his way while understanding him inside. Nowadays....nah. I understand. I would do some shit to to get my way too.

Could the manner of his attempted departure be managed better ? Yeah. The substance, though, is the player wants to move because he probably thinks the club cannot compete at the top in time for him to benefit. That (the current standing of the club, not him) pisses me off a lot more.

No wishing leg breaks this time, all the best.

[Earl of Dingleberry]

wehhh wehhh wehhh

So why don't you fuck off to a yugo or whatever forum floats your boat then?

[killer-heels]

We cannot sell him to a Premier League club, particularly not one that we need to compete against to make the champions league positions. The only reason we would do or understand is if the offer was like, over 50 million or something ridiculous like that.

Suarez will always have suitors and we will get good money for him next season as well. If Arsenal is his only option, then we should disregard the player and his feelings and not sell. Someone from abroad will eventually come in for him next season, if they don't this season.

Obviously we don't know for sure if Suarez definitely would consider Arsenal or not, but I would be amazed if he does. Also, there are loads of posts on here, such as by wickebark, who claim he deserves to be at a top 5 world club. Is Arsenal one of those clubs? Really?

Also, if he does go to Arsenal then you have to wonder what happened here to make him make such a desperate move. Something else must have gone on behind the scenes (maybe he was pissed we didn't officially appeal any of his bans). If not, then he would really be as dumb as he looks.

[Mutton Geoff]

So why don't you fuck off to a yugo or whatever forum floats your boat then?

Given the title this post is just a little Ironic. 

Do you think you deserve respect from Suarez ?

[Justin Siderbox]

The point may have already been made (haven't read all posts on the last 6 pages - so apologies if it has) but noises coming from Suarez' agent and quotes suggesting he's flattered by other English clubs interest (possibly meaning he's open to a move to another UK club) lead me to think the 'bite' was all part of the act leading to him declaring he wanted to change clubs this summer.  It now looks like a calculated move to generate further press reaction and an easier escape route.  The only fly in the ointment was he probably wasn't expecting a 10 match ban.

If that is the case (and no doubt opinion will be divided) it shows the lengths he's prepared to go to orchestrate a move.  He's got previous; striking at a previous club, maybe even the bite at Ajax was a similar trick...who knows?  What gets to me though, if this is the case, is not so much 'Respect' for the club and the fans but the lack of personal dignity for himself.  And whether the bite was part of the game or not, the way he's prostituting himself to other clubs via the media is without doubt undignified.

Loyalty and respect are things that are seldom seen in the game these days.  We may never see the likes of a Carragher-type figure at the club again...and we need to get real to that fact.  But there is a more honourable way to manage your career and still achieve your ambitions without resorting to the Circus Suarez is putting us through.  It comes down to the make up of the individual concerned, their morale fibre and whether or not personal dignity means anything to them.

Draw your own conclusions, and move on.  We'll get over it, we've done it before.

[L666KOP]

The point may have already been made (haven't read all posts on the last 6 pages - so apologies if it has) but noises coming from Suarez' agent and quotes suggesting he's flattered by other English clubs interest (possibly meaning he's open to a move to another UK club) lead me to think the 'bite' was all part of the act leading to him declaring he wanted to change clubs this summer.  It now looks like a calculated move to generate further press reaction and an easier escape route.  The only fly in the ointment was he probably wasn't expecting a 10 match ban.

If that is the case (and no doubt opinion will be divided) it shows the lengths he's prepared to go to orchestrate a move.  He's got previous; striking at a previous club, maybe even the bite at Ajax was a similar trick...who knows?  What gets to me though, if this is the case, is not so much 'Respect' for the club and the fans but the lack of personal dignity for himself.  And whether the bite was part of the game or not, the way he's prostituting himself to other clubs via the media is without doubt undignified.

Loyalty and respect are things that are seldom seen in the game these days.  We may never see the likes of a Carragher-type figure at the club again...and we need to get real to that fact.  But there is a more honourable way to manage your career and still achieve your ambitions without resorting to the Circus Suarez is putting us through.  It comes down to the make up of the individual concerned, their morale fibre and whether or not personal dignity means anything to them.

Draw your own conclusions, and move on.  We'll get over it, we've done it before.

I'd say a deliberate bite is possible, if stretching CT a touch. IF he did, and it's a big IF, he'd do it to escape the country. He'd have exactly the same amount of grief at Arsenal/Chelsea etc, as he would by staying here.

Even I can't see him biting somebody just to engineer a move to another Premiership club.

[Solomon Grundy]

You know, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he didn't turn up for pre-season training like Henrikh Mkhitaryan did, if he doesn't get the move he wants away from the club. Especially with the way he's been acting at the moment anyway.

[Kopitian]

screw him.

torres at least handed in a transfer request

[Justin Siderbox]

I'd say a deliberate bite is possible, if stretching CT a touch. IF he did, and it's a big IF, he'd do it to escape the country. He'd have exactly the same amount of grief at Arsenal/Chelsea etc, as he would by staying here.

Even I can't see him biting somebody just to engineer a move to another Premiership club.

Unless he expected the club to throw the towel in and put him in the shop window, thereby the club forces the sale, not him.

Despite all his protestations about wanting a move and his agent being at the club this week, still no written transfer request.  He's no fool.

[underdog]

You know, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he didn't turn up for pre-season training like Henrikh Mkhitaryan did, if he doesn't get the move he wants away from the club. Especially with the way he's been acting at the moment anyway.

Agree, I can this transfer getting pretty ugly. I don't think many will be willing to pay 50m for a want away player, and the club won't sell their best player for less, its going to end up leaving a bad taste in a lot of mouths.

[Alan_X]

If we were all aliens from the planet Vulcan in Star Trek, we may be able to have such an attitude as you espouse but then again, we would probably find football illogical and find doing quantum pnysics calculations more entertaining...I myself used to say what you are saying there, but this controversy has caused me to realise that my suggestns were unrealistic and just plain slly because by virtue of being a fan, we have to have heroes to cheer on and it is impossible to be a fan and not to creatre the mythical heroes in playres, managers or even boot room members.

Surely, you cannot be saying that the Liverpool fans of the late 60's and 70's did not form special relationships with players and managers? After all, one of them is the rgeatest legend ever int he club and has a statue of him erected - Shankly. He is to this day unoversally lauded and respected and his quotes are still cited frequently. What about Dalglish - the greatest hero among all Liverpool  players of all time to this day - and Rush and Aldridge and Yeats, and St John and keegan etc etc.? When Keegan declared he was leaving, what did that do among the fans?

Read my last paragraph again. There are plenty of ex-players I have a great affection for but it's not a requirement for every Liverpool player to have that relationship. And please don't think I understand why people are upset - I'm just pointing out that it's got fuck all to do with 'respect'.

As for Keegan, I honestly can't remember exactly how I felt at the time. Possibly because there wasn't the intense focus of the transfer window (players could move at any time) and coverage of football in the press and on TV was almost non-existent. The first we knew about transfers tended to be when a player actually signed.

And I expected our players to come and go. Half of the team who played when I first started following Liverpool were gone by 1976: Lawler, Lindsay (still there but not playing), Peter Thompson, Larry Lloyd, Alun Evans, Ron Yeats, Ian St John, Phil Boersma all went and all were replaced. The big difference with Keegan was that like Suarez, he choose to leave. Shanks had gone and he wanted to 'climb a mountain' somewhere else. He said himself that he didn't have the passionate connection with the club that the fans do.

What I do remember about the summer of 1976 was having an amazing time getting stoned in the sunshine, chasing girls, going to concerts and doing anything and everything apart from obsessing about transfers. We didn't even have teletext back then. My advice is that rather than get angry about something you have no control over and something about which you have no real information or facts do what I did in 76 - go out and enjoy yourself and forget about it. That's not to say don't speculate about what the team should be and who we should go for if he leaves. But this whole 'respect' bollocks is a complete and utter waste of time and emotional energy.

Oh, and Shanks and Bob are irrelevant to the discussion - I never said anything about managers.

[Mutton Geoff]

No matter what we hold all the aces if we play hardball tell him if he doesnt play for us we have his registration he doesnt play at all, so if he wants out i would make him hand in that transfer request and then move from that position with him knowing he will leave but only if we sanction it.

If he doesnt turn up for training fine him, he may be a rich man but it still makes the point for the club.

[Alan_X]

And with this:

...noises coming from Suarez' agent and quotes suggesting he's flattered by other English clubs interest (possibly meaning he's open to a move to another UK club) lead me to think the 'bite' was all part of the act leading to him declaring he wanted to change clubs this summer.  It now looks like a calculated move to generate further press reaction and an easier escape route.  The only fly in the ointment was he probably wasn't expecting a 10 match ban.

...we're done here.

Fucking get over it and talk about something else.

Locked.