Topic: Champions League Exit: the Inquest

[Socratease]

? Questionable.

[The 5th Benitle]

? Questionable.

?What is?

[Marty McFly]

Great article by the way. Too many critical moaning fuckers following us these days, who honestly would rather see us fail so they can justify their shite two-bob opinions. It's great to see that there are still people who are positive about our club and can appreciate the hard work and progress being made.

Amen. Article captured my feelings exactly by the way.

Rafa has had to take a few gambles with limited funds but has succeeded firstly in acquiring reliable cover in as many deficient areas as possible, secondly in bringing us up a level or two in that we can relatively confident that the chance of Champions glory will be alive at the beginning of next season (and the one after that, and so on)..

It's hard to be objective as a fan but the point of opinion-based wrirting is surely that it can afford to be subjective to a point. Optimism based on rationale is not 'blind', and the use of rhetoric is sometimes necessary to make an article more readable. Any seasoned columnist will use it to emphasise their points. No one wants to read a table of facts, followed by a list of uncertainties based on the worse-case scenario that we will never score again.

I agree with Paul in the same way that I agree with the 40,000-odd fans that sang YNWA as we slumped 2-0 down. Achievement deserves respect. Most fans will recognise what has been achieved so soon into Rafa's tenure, and most will see the progress that has been made in such a short space of time. We should all celebrate the fact that we have been European Champions rather than bemoaning the fact that we lost a single knockout tie to spirited - yet 'inferior' - opposition.

Although, no one would consider us the finished article at this stage, it would take a severely pessimist view to doubt that Rafa is capable of both addressing and fixing the remaining problem areas in due course: up front and wide right.

It would be sad to think that someone who writes an uplifting, articulate, heartfelt and (IMHO) entertaining piece would hesitate to post it in future because of a few miserable or pedantic snipers.

[StevieG26]

Although, no one would consider us the finished article at this stage, it would take a severely pessimist view to doubt that Rafa is capable of both addressing and fixing the remaining problem areas in due course: up front and wide right.

Agree with you, but we've seemed to have lost out on a host of big names when our 'Champions of Europe' title could have attracted them more. I really do hope Rafa brings in a couple (which means two, not one) of strikers to replace Morientes (surely) and maybe Cisse (though this could be argued because he's still young and we'd sell him at a huge loss considering he cost 14 million.) Our 'final piece of the jigsaw' regarding transfers would then be the right-wing and again, I'd expect nothing less than a quality right-winger.

The thing which I also want to see in summer is Crouch spending more time in the gym instead of (or while) relaxing in the Caribbean. I really feel he needs to add a physical presence to his game, especially when he comes to hit the ball in the air. He tends to rely on putting his elbows above an opponent instead of using his strength, which would result in a foul.

[El mooro]

There has indeed been alot of progress made.

However, this is all being negated by the worst forward line the club have had in living memory.

To suggest this is a mental thing is too simplistic imho.

For one, the players we have don't seem to have the ability to score the 20+ goals a season a team with trophy aspirations demands.

For another, I feel the players we have bought, have brought with them a change to a tactic that has seen us become too predictable again, much in the same way has we had become with the Owen situation under Houllier.

Last season, we scored many goals with runners from midfield, especially at home, cutting in from the wings, a la Freddie L. at Arsenal.

This season the pattern is switch the ball immediately to wing, play *crosses* into the box, and hope one of our strikers who are hopeless in the air converts them.

It could be argued of course that Rafa is simply perfecting a system that he knows will work with the new personnel he thinks we have arriving in the summer.

A post above says that Rafa got the team selection wrong against Benfica, and I'd concur with that. All the pre-match talk was of hope that F.M. and P.C. would not lead the line together. He also got the line up wrong in Istanbul, but Didi and Lady Luck helped him out there too.

At this moment in time, I think the future is anything but guaranteed for Rafa's Liverpool. Taking away the glorious victory that was number five (since we are happy to dismiss our Champions League exit as a vagary of knock-out football),  last season was largely disappointing. Going out of the F.A. Cup,  and then finishing fourth to a free scoring Spurs could see us not qualify for next seasons C.L. on the basis of an Arsenal win in Paris ( and wouldn't it be ironic if the law that was changed to accomadate us would first act to exclude us from the competition ).

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer  to see forwards who score goals first, and add other things to the team second. It is great if they can do both of course, but these sorts of players go for silly money. I said at the time that Crouch represented an arrogant signing. The type that either makes a manager look a genius or a buffoon.

Anyway, lots of things are up in the air (boom-boom- did you see the way we played second half Wednesday), at the moment, as you would expect as we get to the business end of the season.

I'd rather talk about the success of a work in progress when the close season has arrived, and we know whether this work has truly progressed or not.

[Kenny-Dag]

He also got the line up wrong in Istanbul, but Didi and Lady Luck helped him out there too

Pathetic.

[El mooro]

Pathetic c*nt. You're probably some glory hunting OOT.

So not playing Didi from the start was a master stroke then?

Oh, and I'm more of a prick than a c*nt.  And yes I am an OOT, of scouse descent, and have probably been going to games since you were in nappys.

Now when you grow pubes, do come back with a worthwhile opinion.

In the meantime, shouldn't you be doing your homework or something?

[Kenny-Dag]

You're pathetic, mate. You don't like the manager, fair enough, but to go back to the final in Istanbul, which we won by the way, and use the non inclusion of Hamman as a critisism of the him and our current standing, just shows how clueless you really are.

[El mooro]

You're pathetic, mate. You don't like the manager, fair enough, but to go back to the final in Istanbul, which we won by the way, and use the non inclusion of Hamman as a critisism of the him and our current standing, just shows how clueless you really are.

Where did I say I don't like the manager?

I think the jury is out at the moment.

The only thing I really don't like about him, is that he sees our club as a stepping stone. I think it should represent the pinnacle of any footballing persons career.

Re: Hamman.

In Istanbul, when the team news came out, nearly all commented "what, no Hamman, who will protect the back four?".

The game starts, the back four aren't protected and we are 3-0 down in a game which was actually pretty even (despite what the press would have you believe ). Hamman comes on at half time and we are more solid and the rest is history.

I suggest you read Guillem Balague's book, " A Season On The Brink ", you will see that senior players in the team were also shocked by Hamman's omission.

Managers get selections wrong all the time. It was just an observation that he got it wrong on Wednesday as he did, imho, in Instanbul.

Think a bit lad, before flying down people's throats, eh?

[Kenny-Dag]

Sorry about that. I did edit it afterwards.

And as for Rafa seeing the club as a stepping stone...come on! Look at all the groundwork and planning he's put in for the future. You don't do that if you only see yourself sticking around for a couple of seasons.

A bit of patience is needed that's all. It's been another difficult season. I'd like to see us next season with better attackers in place and without the distractions of starting in June, and trips to Japan, etc, and then I'll be able to make a better judgement of where we really are.

[Paul Tomkins]

Where did I say I don't like the manager?

I think the jury is out at the moment.

The only thing I really don't like about him, is that he sees our club as a stepping stone. I think it should represent the pinnacle of any footballing persons career.

Mooro - first of all, I've explained the confidence thing about the strikers. They *can* score goals, as they have in the past, and low confidence is stopping them taking easy chances; but as I said in the piece, we still need an ultra-reliable finisher, preferably one with pace. Can't see why people are missing that point, unless they haven't read the piece properly.

Hamann in Istanbul - pointless criticism. We could still have been overrun in the first half with Hamann, given the way Milan started the game and the way, after half-time, they had the cigars out; had they remained focused they could still have murdered us as they are a far better side, man-for-man. Far better. Too many of our players looked overwhelmed by the occasion in the first half. Gerrard was nowhere, Xabi not his normal self, and Traore was an utter nervous wreck.

Yes, hindsight says omitting Hamann was a mistake, but we won the fucking European Cup - the manager deserves the utmost credit for just getting us to the final in the first place. But to win from 3-0 down, even allowing for Milan's sleepiness, is a remarkable achievement. We beat a lot of top-notch teams to win the trophy, so to focus on one mistake is über-pedantry. Especially when - and this point gets overlooked - we didn't just introduce Hamann but switched to three at the back; something no team would start with, but which Rafa implemented to turn things around.

As for the point I've made bold, that's just bloody daft - one of the silliest things I've ever read on RAWK, with all due respect. A stepping stone to what? Managing Real Madrid? He could have done that already, if he really wanted to. That he might do so in the future is up to him, if he does brilliantly managing the Reds in the meantime and gives the club five good years. We want people who are thoroughly dedicated to our club, not who want to sign their entire lives away.

As for the jury still being out, if we can't respect how far we've come in 18 months, then we'll never respect anything any manager ever does for us. We are third, behind two teams who've spend £20-£30m on about 10 players between them, plus a whole host of £15m+ players. That we are keeping pace with Manchester United and have done better than them in two of the three cups, without their finances, deserves respect, too.

[Alf]

A great piece Paul 

Judgment Day is just down the road for Rafa Benitez he never signed Djibril Cisse but the signing of Fernando Morientes just hasn't worked out. The striker/s he brings to Anfield in the summer could be the difference between being title contenders and winning number 19.

[Kanonkop]

Good piece Paul. 

I think our striking problem is a bit bigger than you but one that can be remedied in the summer and what I take great confidence from is that with so much of the rest of the team sorted, that is precisely what our transfer budget can be utilised for.  We are a rock solid team in terms of being difficult to score against and controlling games.  We just haven't been able to convert chances into goals.  Had we had one or two prolific strikers we would have been the complete team in my opinion.  That is easier to fix, all be it expensive, rather than having to replace 5-7 key players for 3-4 different positions as was the case last summer.  As you so correctly point out in your piece, and I believe that is also the main thrust of your piece despite others here choosing to nitpick on a minor point here or there to score some cheap points.

I am sure that our strikers are struggling with confidence but I am equally sure that despite all their goals scored elsewhere they will not achieve the same with us.  We are unlikely to see Morientes score many for us - he plain and simple has failed to settle to life in England and the premiership etc.  Crouch I like for his ability to hold the ball up and lay it off intelligently, but not for every game and he is clearly not going to be a source of many goals for us.  Cisse - well he is an enigma.  I like a lot about him but he can be totally frustrating at times also (and I will readily accept that he is not Benitez's favourite and also playing out of position).  His days seem to be numbered. 

Fowler is the one striker we have whom I have some belief in as an out and out scorer.  He has been a bit unlucky on his return but he is doing the right things, getting into dangerous positions and making the runs.  In his case, the difference between scoring goals and missing chances is a very fine line which he is just the wrong side of at the moment.  Perhaps its confidence (but he doesn’t seem to be unconfident in his body language or play) or perhaps its just one of those unexplainable things that suddenly sorts itself for no apparent reason.  I suspect the latter.

So, to conclude, I am as realistically optimistic as your self for the future.  This year ahs been a very encouraging and successful rebuilding year and we just need the final piece of the jigsaw (strikers who score goals on a regular basis) for us to be challenging for top honours - both at home and in Europe.

Compare our rebuilding to Valencia.  Benitez first steadied the ship in terms of defence and controlling games (he won the league there - he won't do so this year with Liverpool but we might well finish second which amounts to the same thing given Chelsea’s financial superiority) and the following season he then sorted out the attack.  Let’s wait and see what next year brings AFTER this summers signings.

[ac]

' I am sure that our strikers are struggling with confidence but I am equally sure that despite all their goals scored elsewhere they will not achieve the same with us. '

Spot on IMO. None our strikers are reliable goal scorers in big games, let alone ultra-reliable. Morientes and Cisse are not up to it and Crouch while being a useful squad player lacks the necessary power, pace, agression, clinical finishing, and ability to create chances on his own to be consistently relied on in the first team.

[El mooro]

Mooro - first of all, I've explained the confidence thing about the strikers. They *can* score goals, as they have in the past, and low confidence is stopping them taking easy chances; but as I said in the piece, we still need an ultra-reliable finisher, preferably one with pace. Can't see why people are missing that point, unless they haven't read the piece properly.

Hamann in Istanbul - pointless criticism. We could still have been overrun in the first half with Hamann, given the way Milan started the game and the way, after half-time, they had the cigars out; had they remained focused they could still have murdered us as they are a far better side, man-for-man. Far better. Too many of our players looked overwhelmed by the occasion in the first half. Gerrard was nowhere, Xabi not his normal self, and Traore was an utter nervous wreck.

Yes, hindsight says omitting Hamann was a mistake, but we won the fucking European Cup - the manager deserves the utmost credit for just getting us to the final in the first place. But to win from 3-0 down, even allowing for Milan's sleepiness, is a remarkable achievement. We beat a lot of top-notch teams to win the trophy, so to focus on one mistake is über-pedantry. Especially when - and this point gets overlooked - we didn't just introduce Hamann but switched to three at the back; something no team would start with, but which Rafa implemented to turn things around.

As for the point I've made bold, that's just bloody daft - one of the silliest things I've ever read on RAWK, with all due respect. A stepping stone to what? Managing Real Madrid? He could have done that already, if he really wanted to. That he might do so in the future is up to him, if he does brilliantly managing the Reds in the meantime and gives the club five good years. We want people who are thoroughly dedicated to our club, not who want to sign their entire lives away.

As for the jury still being out, if we can't respect how far we've come in 18 months, then we'll never respect anything any manager ever does for us. We are third, behind two teams who've spend £20-£30m on about 10 players between them, plus a whole host of £15m+ players. That we are keeping pace with Manchester United and have done better than them in two of the three cups, without their finances, deserves respect, too.

My point about ommiting Hamman initially was that all managers make mistakes, and whilst losing with what I consider a poor selection on Wednesday night,  we won in Istanbul despite what I consider to be  a similar mistake.

I stand by my comments regarding not liking Liverpool F.C. viewed as a mere stop on a journey. Infact, I cannot think of anybody else ever associated with the club who did not see  that association as their ultimate achievement. We all know that eventually Benitez will leave to caoch Madrid, and fair play too him. But already this certainy is casting doubt around the club, and giving copy to lazy journalists. The Liverpool Way would be for Benitez to come out and flatly deny any chance of him moving to Madrid in the summer, which he hasn't as far as I can see. I'm sorry you see this opinion as one of the "silliest things you have ever seen on RAWK"  (you should spend more time in the "Boozer" ), but I can assure you it is not an opinion I hold in isolation.

The Hamman/Final issue. What happened was that we were over run in midfield before the break and we were not after it. The difference was Hamman, so there is no point arguing otherwise based on supposition. I am acutely aware that we won the European Cup, but that we did so on the basis of the greatest comeback in history (t.m.) suggests that we had made tactical mistakes that were rectified later (and kudos to Benitez for seeing this).

And I did say in my initial post that progress had been made, definately.

I do feel Rafa has thrown out the baby with the bath water though. At Anfield last season with a supposedly weaker strike force we were turning teams over, regularly and with ease. Why we couldn't keep our home tatics the same this time round, and play the way we are now set up at home away from home I do not understand.

But again, as in my post, perhaps Benitez is merely practising a style of play he believes will be successful once better players are at the club.

[Paul Tomkins]

Fair enough on most of those answers Mooro - apart from Rafa having to deny joining Madrid. If he denied it every time he was linked with Madrid, he'd never get any work done. I'm sure he, like a lot of others constantly linked with exits, etc, get sick of being asked about it, and prefer to concentrate on what's taking place. I've never seen Benitez as a mercenary, nor someone who walks away from half-finished projects. He only left Valencia, after a lot of internal stress and pressure, once he had made them the best team in their history.

And it's also supposition to suggest we'd have done better in the first half in Istanbul had Hamann been playing - it was a totally different situation in the second half, and a different tactical game at that stage. Sure, logic tells us Hamann would have helped in the first half, but I just don't think the other tactical switches made at half-time get enough mentions. Others would argue that Hamann was not an obvious inclusion for the second half, with goals needed. But right or wrong, it still seems churlish to criticise him when it was his tactical nous that got us there - and not the fact that we had the best players, as clearly we didn't.

And yeah, I've spent enough time in the Boozer to retract that statement

[MR]

Rafa's now getting the depth of talent he wants (Palleta, Agger,Kromkamp, the midfield etc) all thats left is up top and the right-hand side, and he'll be working hard on them at the end of the season (World cup allowing).

Roll on 2006/7.

And a left back, even as a deputy. Riise is excellent. Neither Warnock nor Traore are close to Premership-winning standard. Traore's had a great second half in Istanbul, and Warnock the odd good game. But neither could tame Duff/Robben for example

[MR]

We all know that eventually Benitez will leave to caoch Madrid

Self-fulfilling prophecy? Be careful what you wish for...

[MR]

There has indeed been alot of progress made.

However, this is all being negated by the worst forward line the club have had in living memory.

Not really. Undermined, maybe. 'Negated' - don't be daft. We're third when we haven't been even close for years. We've improved away from home, and we're defensively strong.

The striker problem is a major problem. I am sure Rafa knows this, but what else can he do but deflect criticism from the strikers? If he comes out and says 'they're shite', then he reduces their confidence, their value at the end of the season, and the onus on the rest of the team to get forward and help out

[Kenny-Dag]

Not really. Undermined, maybe. 'Negated' - don't be daft. We're third when we haven't been even close for years. We've improved away from home, and we're defensively strong.

The striker problem is a major problem. I am sure Rafa knows this, but what else can he do but deflect criticism from the strikers? If he comes out and says 'they're shite', then he reduces their confidence, their value at the end of the season, and the onus on the rest of the team to get forward and help out

Stop talking sense will you.

[Paul Tomkins]

Not really. Undermined, maybe. 'Negated' - don't be daft. We're third when we haven't been even close for years. We've improved away from home, and we're defensively strong.

The striker problem is a major problem. I am sure Rafa knows this, but what else can he do but deflect criticism from the strikers? If he comes out and says 'they're shite', then he reduces their confidence, their value at the end of the season, and the onus on the rest of the team to get forward and help out

Two excellent points. The first is, we've had far better strikers (or in-form strikers) in recent years, and yet this is our best points tally at this stage of a season in nearly 15 years. So undermined yes, negated no.

But the second point is what I've been driving at - there's not much Rafa can do now but back those he has, beyond maybe giving Cissé more of a run up front. I keep saying 'let's wait until the summer' as everyone and his dog knows a) it's a problem that needs addressing and b) Rafa will address the problem.

We can cry over spilt milk, or we can do our best to mop it up and buy another pint in the summer 

[Guz-kop]

I do feel Rafa has thrown out the baby with the bath water though. At Anfield last season with a supposedly weaker strike force we were turning teams over, regularly and with ease.

With the exception of Charlton, Birmingham and Benfica, I'd say we have done that this season, or atleast maintained our home form from last season and simply improved ourselves on the road on top of that.

I think the jury is out at the moment.

Incidentally, what do you think the jury is out on? You say that the only thing you dont like about Rafa is that he sees us as a 'stepping stone', what else is there?

Re the original article, can't agree the striking problem is totally mental. Crouch I'm relatively pleased with overall but needs to be trained to be more aggressive on the pitch, more van Nistelrooy and Shearer than Heskey. But he's always been like that and I hope this will change under the right guidance. Also, I can't help but think we play a foolish amount of long balls at Crouch. He's having the same effect as Heskey on our team and I'm talking about the likes of Carragher, Finnan, Riise and Hyypia looking up, seeing his head above the rest and launching it long for him. It doesn't work, it's not his strength and it's negating the effect of a potentially exciting midfield. We have played our best football, including Crouch, when we've kept the ball on the deck, used Crouch's ability on the ball and 4/5 attacking players have linked up well together to create genuine goalscoring opportunities, not half-chances. Against Man City & Arsenal we did well and in those instances I'd lay a lot of the blame at our strike force. Same goes for the first 40mins against Benfica but after that all we did was launch long diagonal balls in hope rather than in conviction. Maybe wednesday night can be excused because of the clear anxiety of the situation but it's not an isolated problem and has been creeping more and more into our play since Everton away back in December. I love our defence but I've said for a while, the next logical step for our play to improve in is for them to learn to use the ball better and use the midfield more often. Rafa's Valencia (and all great teams really) was based on the principle that all 11 players on the pitch were combfortable in posession of the ball and could slowly build up moves and keep the ball. At the moment we're doing it in patches but need to bring more consistency to that area.

Morientes, well where do I start? When we bought him I thought he'd turn into one of the best forwards in the league but at the moment I dont think he offers anything of note to the team. Occasional neat touches are too often hampered by slowness to react, being slow across the pitch and generally looking too weak for the english game. Morientes is clearly a class act and his record at Madrid and Monaco speaks for itself but some players just aren't cut out for some leagues. I've gone past the stage of hoping for another gorgeous header a la Fulham last year or a left footed strike vs Charlton. I think (or hope?) Rafa will continue his ruthless streak and Morientes will be moved on and join the likes of Juan Veron as exceptional players who couldn't cut it in England.

Also, our strikers have had a problem all season, even last year no one was particularly prolific. This season only Crouch has gone on a goalscoring spree of 7 or 8 games. Other than that we've been blessed with Gerrard's ability to get forward and chipping in of goals from elsewhere. Not to mention a miserly defence. It's only because Gerrard hasn't scored since Pompey away (a penalty), Garcia is suffering from a knee injury and we are creating some chances which are being wasted is everyone highlighting the need for new personell in the summer. Lots of people kept mentioning Morientes, Cisse and to an extent Crouch during our great run pre-christmas but that was always responded with a "it doesn't matter, the team is winning" response. Thankfully, I'm sure Rafa is aware of this problem and I have 100% faith that it's a problem that will be rectified. It's been well documented that it's a problem (if you can call it that after winning the title) in his first season at Valencia and he was able to adapt and create an even better team. I have no reason to not believe he will do the same with us aswell. Infact, when Houllier was relieved of his duties I said whoever takes charge will need at least 2 seasons minimum to get the squad the way he wanted and challenging for honours regularly. I stand by that and think we're on course for this as well. Incidentally, I think this has some bearing on the money issue with Benitez. Rafa HAS spent money, £40m (I think it is) in 2 seasons is impressive spending but the job at hand when Rafa took over was so large, it hasn't been enough to take us onto the final step. Which he will do.

[legoflamb]

Fucking brilliant.  Brightened up my whole weekend that.  And Elliot Smith in your avatar!  Inspired! 

[fiveed]

reading book now it is class.

[dnkw]

And Elliot Smith in your avatar!  Inspired! 

Oh right. So it's not Daniel Day Lewis then?

[Paul Tomkins]

And Elliot Smith in your avatar!  Inspired! 

Yup, 'tis the sorely missed Mr Smith. 

[theCanadian]

Classy classy post Paul. I agree wholeheartedly that what our team needs is more pace. Presumably Gonzalez, a new right winger, and a new striker will all bring that and we'll have an attack that is exponentially faster.

I'm lazy and tired right now so I'm not going to go any further. You've pretty much said it all really.
'

[theCanadian]

Yup, 'tis the sorely missed Mr Smith. 

Whoa! I thought it was Alan Rickman! Looks just like him...

http://www.harrypotterrealm.com/movie/actors/alanrickman2.jpg

[xabi14]

Mark Gonzalez looks a great player, he was the best player on the pitch last weekend when Real Sociedad lost 2-1 to Real Madrid, he even got Sociedad's goal. Rumours are Chelsea have beaten us to Simao so i think Joaquin may be looked at even if he is a bit expensive. I'd personally like to see Fowler given a new contract and us bring in one or two strikers like Defoe and Berbatov. I think central defence is sorted, with Agger looking good, Paletta coming in the summer, and 17 year-old Jack Hobbs playing well as reserve team captain, aswel as 17-year old right winger Paul Anderson who has inspired the under18's to the final this season.