Author Topic: Dejan Lovren (Read 503352 times)

Jookie · « **Reply #2000 on:** February 7, 2018, 03:14:49 pm »

Quote from: So... Howard Phillips on February 7, 2018, 02:38:57 pm

I don't know about the latter day Skrtel but after seeing his debut against Waterlooville you knew there were problems there.

Beyond the Waterlooville game Skrtel was pretty consistent for his 1st 3 seasons at the club. He didn't play every week but he played more than half the league games in those seasons (similar to Daniel Agger). During the 1st 2 or 3 seasons at the club he was a part of the defence that was miserly. Skrtel wasn't making big mistakes week in, week out and on many occasions he was 1st choice ahead of Agger.

I didn't really want to come in here and defend Martin Skrtel but he's a good example of how a defender can excel in certain tactical systems, alongside certain players but struggle in a system (or with colleagues) that is not suited to their skill set. Our current system asks a lot of certain positions. It's probably why I'm not as harsh on the abilities of the likes of Lovren, Matip, Henderson and Can. I think they have the most difficult positions in our set up, with the least room for error for mistakes. It's why I get annoyed when people suggest that replacing these players would be easy and/or it would be like waving magic wand to solve all our defensive problems. That doesn't mean we shouldn't replace them. It means I don't think it would be easy to get an significant upgrade for No.6 or CB positions.

redtel · « **Reply #2001 on:** February 7, 2018, 03:31:40 pm »

When I saw Lovren line up as Right CB alongside VVD I commented that I thought he was predominantly left footed. Is he?

His missed right foot clearance again brought this up or is he two footed. As VVD plays LCB he needs to comfortable alongside him. Any thoughts?

LallanaInPyjamas · « **Reply #2002 on:** February 7, 2018, 03:36:20 pm »

Quote from: redtel on February 7, 2018, 03:31:40 pm

When I saw Lovren line up as Right CB alongside VVD I commented that I thought he was predominantly left footed. Is he?

His missed right foot clearance again brought this up or is he two footed. As VVD plays LCB he needs to comfortable alongside him. Any thoughts?

Like VVD, Lovren is predominantly right-footed but with a preference for playing as a left-sided central defender. It could be a minor issue that they both prefer that side, but Lovren and Sakho had the makings of a decent partnership in 15/16, and VVD is a better defender than Sakho.

I also personally think Lovren has probably had a higher proportion of good games when playing on the right side for us. I don't like seeing him dragged out to that left channel. His body shape looks wrong when jockeying opponents and I think he knows this, hence why you often see him diving in.

tubby · « **Reply #2003 on:** February 7, 2018, 03:38:27 pm »

Lovren is right footed but he's pretty comfortable playing long or short passes with his left. Nowhere near as two-footed as Lallana, but he's decent on his weaker foot compared to most footballers.

redtel · « **Reply #2004 on:** February 7, 2018, 04:19:40 pm »

Quote from: LallanaInPyjamas on February 7, 2018, 03:36:20 pm

Like VVD, Lovren is predominantly right-footed but with a preference for playing as a left-sided central defender. It could be a minor issue that they both prefer that side, but Lovren and Sakho had the makings of a decent partnership in 15/16, and VVD is a better defender than Sakho.

I also personally think Lovren has probably had a higher proportion of good games when playing on the right side for us. I don't like seeing him dragged out to that left channel. His body shape looks wrong when jockeying opponents and I think he knows this, hence why you often see him diving in.

Cheers for that. His two missed right footed clearances against Sevilla and on Sunday led me to think he was left footed. Will watch with interest on Sunday if he plays there again.

If VD is predominantly right footed it may explain his sliced clearance with his left at Swansea which led to a corner. It's strange they would prefer playing on the left hand side unless they were very good with both feet.
Our advancing FB means they have to be able to cover across to the corner.

Rattleduser · « **Reply #2005 on:** February 7, 2018, 05:10:12 pm »

No defender is perfect and even the best will make mistakes playing in a Liverpool defence that doesn't get enough protection from our midfield. Lovren makes too many unforced errors/bad decisions and for me there really is no valid reasonable explanation as to why this has to be something Liverpool Football club needs to tolerate in regards to having the ambition of improving and competing at the highest level next season.

I don't mind having Dejan in the squad going forward or to continue using him for the remainder of the season as first choice. I thought Matip would be a regular starter, but I think Lovren is ahead of him.

Djozer · « **Reply #2006 on:** February 7, 2018, 05:31:05 pm »

Quote from: LallanaInPyjamas on February 7, 2018, 03:36:20 pm

Like VVD, Lovren is predominantly right-footed but with a preference for playing as a left-sided central defender. It could be a minor issue that they both prefer that side, but Lovren and Sakho had the makings of a decent partnership in 15/16, and VVD is a better defender than Sakho.

I also personally think Lovren has probably had a higher proportion of good games when playing on the right side for us. I don't like seeing him dragged out to that left channel. His body shape looks wrong when jockeying opponents and I think he knows this, hence why you often see him diving in.

Someone else said that on this thread a wee while ago (although it might have been you) and I agree with it. I tend to think of him as a right footed centre half who tends to be on the left, but he actually seems to have done much better on the right in recent times. He's done great with Klavan in recent times and I think he might be my preference to partner VVD, especially for the games where we might have to defend a bit, or if we're expecting some kind of prolonged aerial bombardment.

Matip was great last season, but he seems to have regressed this year - difficult second season syndrome maybe, who knows? I like him for the games in which we're going to have 70-odd percent possession as he seems much better at carrying the ball and passing through the lines than Lovren but other than that, I reckon Dejan deserves a run. I get the impression that Klopp sees VVD-Matip as his longterm first choice defensive partnership, but do feel that there may be an element of horses for courses in his defensive choices, for the forseeable future at least.

PhaseOfPlay · « **Reply #2007 on:** February 7, 2018, 05:35:02 pm »

Quote from: LallanaInPyjamas on February 7, 2018, 03:36:20 pm

Like VVD, Lovren is predominantly right-footed but with a preference for playing as a left-sided central defender. It could be a minor issue that they both prefer that side, but Lovren and Sakho had the makings of a decent partnership in 15/16, and VVD is a better defender than Sakho.

I also personally think Lovren has probably had a higher proportion of good games when playing on the right side for us. I don't like seeing him dragged out to that left channel. His body shape looks wrong when jockeying opponents and I think he knows this, hence why you often see him diving in.

Good points. But the bolded is easily solved by putting the defensive fullback on his side, and putting the attacking fullback on the right side.

Under Rodgers, both fullbacks went forward, always. When we played the back three, it didn't matter so much, because Skrtel was playing as a de facto sweeper, so Lovren was never the last man, and didn't have half a pitch to cover. When he's on the right side, he's on his natural side, but recently, the defensive fullback was on that side, so Lovren was playing the second-defender role more. On the left side, with an attacking fullback, and no sweeper behind him, he gets exposed in spaces he doesn't like to play in.

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2008 on:** February 7, 2018, 06:50:53 pm »

Quote from: LallanaInPyjamas on February 7, 2018, 03:36:20 pm

Like VVD, Lovren is predominantly right-footed but with a preference for playing as a left-sided central defender. It could be a minor issue that they both prefer that side, but Lovren and Sakho had the makings of a decent partnership in 15/16, and VVD is a better defender than Sakho.

I also personally think Lovren has probably had a higher proportion of good games when playing on the right side for us. I don't like seeing him dragged out to that left channel. His body shape looks wrong when jockeying opponents and I think he knows this, hence why you often see him diving in.

It might not be that. It may be as simple as 90% (number from arse) of center backs are right footed and therefore half (number from arse) of them will need to play on the side of their weaker foot. Those who do tend to be ones who are better than average on their weak foot.

VVD and Lovren are amongst the better center halves I have seen on their left foot. So I suspect at every instance where they have been partnered with another right footer, then have been the one to move across to the left side.

Lovren has always looked stronger for me on the right. It is why (statistically) the partnership of Klavan and Lovren was our best last season in terms of defensive numbers in terms of chances being given up and the value of those chances. Of course there will be individual examples in that selection of games together where they had howlers in them, but I was more interested in seeing which partnership succeeded best in reducing goal scoring chanced and the value of those chances - not which fucked up the least.

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2009 on:** February 7, 2018, 07:13:09 pm »

Quote from: Jookie on February 7, 2018, 03:14:49 pm

Beyond the Waterlooville game Skrtel was pretty consistent for his 1st 3 seasons at the club. He didn't play every week but he played more than half the league games in those seasons (similar to Daniel Agger). During the 1st 2 or 3 seasons at the club he was a part of the defence that was miserly. Skrtel wasn't making big mistakes week in, week out and on many occasions he was 1st choice ahead of Agger.

I didn't really want to come in here and defend Martin Skrtel but he's a good example of how a defender can excel in certain tactical systems, alongside certain players but struggle in a system (or with colleagues) that is not suited to their skill set. Our current system asks a lot of certain positions. It's probably why I'm not as harsh on the abilities of the likes of Lovren, Matip, Henderson and Can. I think they have the most difficult positions in our set up, with the least room for error for mistakes. It's why I get annoyed when people suggest that replacing these players would be easy and/or it would be like waving magic wand to solve all our defensive problems. That doesn't mean we shouldn't replace them. It means I don't think it would be easy to get an significant upgrade for No.6 or CB positions.

Or to put that another way, a good example of a defender who can perform to a high level in a system which masks his limitations or with players who compensate better for them. I think Keane & Maguire would be similar players who have been linked with us the previous summer.

Agree with everything else you have said. The way Klopp sides play will be a nightmare for some players and, particularly the back 5/6 - any limitations you have will be exposed. We are starting to see this with Gomez also this season. We seems to have problems with balls in the air and seems to either lose the flight of the ball or lose the player at the back post, or both. It is happening regularly though and it will be a concern for Klopp and his team I suspect.

Then it will come down a question of whether the problem can be solved with coaching or not. I suspect Gomez's can be and is actually quite similar to Moreno's problem albeit it is showing itself in a different way. And just as Moreno could learn to check over his shoulders every few seconds and be more aware of his position, his team mates position in relation to his, the opposition etc, Gomez can do the same. However the problem of losing the flight and how that is solved is beyond me and something I am actually looking into. Maybe PoP knows? It feels like it doesn't have an easy fix though and that would be a worry because, as mentioned before, I don't think a Klopp side can carry a player with limitations and aspire to the levels we need to be at to compete for and win trophies.

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2010 on:** February 7, 2018, 07:19:51 pm »

Quote from: PhaseOfPlay on February 7, 2018, 05:35:02 pm

Good points. But the bolded is easily solved by putting the defensive fullback on his side, and putting the attacking fullback on the right side.

Under Rodgers, both fullbacks went forward, always. When we played the back three, it didn't matter so much, because Skrtel was playing as a de facto sweeper, so Lovren was never the last man, and didn't have half a pitch to cover. When he's on the right side, he's on his natural side, but recently, the defensive fullback was on that side, so Lovren was playing the second-defender role more. On the left side, with an attacking fullback, and no sweeper behind him, he gets exposed in spaces he doesn't like to play in.

Good post.

However, I suspect that a defensive/attacking full back combination is not going to be something we see with Klopp long term. It is more of a temporary tactical solution to problem he could not solve with existing personnel.

His midfield wasn't affording us the protection needed regardless of what combination of Henderson, Can, Milner, Coutinho & Gini was playing. With Keita coming in, Coutinho and (likely) Can leaving and the aging Milner & Lallana likely to see minutes in midfield reduced or them moving on altogether in the near future, I think we will see something of a complete overhaul in midfield in the not to distant future. I then believe one he has the players he wants for his system in midfield, we will once again see laterals on both sides of the pitch instead of Gomez playing as a wide 3rd center back.

Could be totally wrong, just my gut feeling on where we progress from this point here and how.

LallanaInPyjamas · « **Reply #2011 on:** February 8, 2018, 10:22:21 am »

Quote from: BabuYagu on February 7, 2018, 06:50:53 pm

It might not be that. It may be as simple as 90% (number from arse) of center backs are right footed and therefore half (number from arse) of them will need to play on the side of their weaker foot. Those who do tend to be ones who are better than average on their weak foot.

VVD and Lovren are amongst the better center halves I have seen on their left foot. So I suspect at every instance where they have been partnered with another right footer, then have been the one to move across to the left side.

Lovren has always looked stronger for me on the right. It is why (statistically) the partnership of Klavan and Lovren was our best last season in terms of defensive numbers in terms of chances being given up and the value of those chances. Of course there will be individual examples in that selection of games together where they had howlers in them, but I was more interested in seeing which partnership succeeded best in reducing goal scoring chanced and the value of those chances - not which fucked up the least.

Agree with all of that. I feel like I have seen him (or perhaps Rodgers) state his preference for playing on the left side, though, but I can't find anything on it so perhaps I've made it up in my own brain having seen him play the majority of his career on that side.

What is most curious is that Lovren publicly stated in the autumn that he had "big problems with the left side of my body," and yet we continued to play him on that side of the defence through his multiple injury issues. That seemed like poor management to me and it was no great surprise to see it culminate in that Wembley horror show.

I'm with you in that he's better placed on the right, in part due to what he has shown there and his general body shape, and in part due to our current tactical instructions to our full-backs. He seems to particularly struggle when next to Moreno.

Roger Federer · « **Reply #2012 on:** February 14, 2018, 11:49:23 pm »

VVD is rightly praised, and he does look a class above, but I thought Lovren was excellent tonight and even better than his partner. Once again I’m left with the impression that he plays better on the right side of defence.

As of right now I think he looks like he’s a slightly better partner to VVD than Matip. Although Matip’s ability on the ball makes him perhaps more useful against teams that sit back against us.

Poet · « **Reply #2013 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:13:53 am »

Top draw again. Well in Dejan.

Fordy · « **Reply #2014 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:16:22 am »

Was excellent again tonight.

Seems against the top sides he will partner VVD.

Dench57 · « **Reply #2015 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:24:07 am »

go ed degsy

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2016 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:29:43 am »

My two choices for man of the match were Robertson and Lovren.

Game would have looked entirely different if it wasn't for him making any of the 3 or 4 blocks he made in our 6 yard box. Well in Dejan. The more I see of the Dejan & VVD partnership, the more I feel that can be more effective for us than any other available to us at the moment.

only6times · « **Reply #2017 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:51:47 am »

Crucial block at nil nil, especially as the top knotted one had dived the wrong way.

vivabobbygraham · « **Reply #2018 on:** February 15, 2018, 01:57:02 am »

Quote from: only5times on February 15, 2018, 12:51:47 am

Crucial block at nil nil, especially as the top knotted one had dived the wrong way.

That close in you have to make a choice. Dejan makes your statement superfluous however with what was a tremendous block. Outstanding game from the big fellah. I can see him going from strength to strength now as he settles with Virgil. A beast of a partnership forming there.

jepovic · « **Reply #2019 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:29:24 am »

Quote from: BabuYagu on February 15, 2018, 12:29:43 am

My two choices for man of the match were Robertson and Lovren.

Game would have looked entirely different if it wasn't for him making any of the 3 or 4 blocks he made in our 6 yard box. Well in Dejan. The more I see of the Dejan & VVD partnership, the more I feel that can be more effective for us than any other available to us at the moment.

Yeah, Lovren was boss. For a while our midfield went into silent mode and exposed the back four, but they handled it very well. From a pure defense point of view, I think Lovren is better than VVD and clearly ahead of Matip. He's the most alert and agressive of our defenders. The block is a good example - I don't think Matip or VVD would have reacted that quickly and decisively. Carragher style.

Wool · « **Reply #2020 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:31:18 am »

He looks really good next to Van Dijk. Fair play to the lad.

clinical · « **Reply #2021 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:31:50 am »

Quote from: only5times on February 15, 2018, 12:51:47 am

Crucial block at nil nil, especially as the top knotted one had dived the wrong way.

Was brilliant that.

He's been really good lately, but we've seen this before. Really good and then a few shockers.

SamAteTheRedAcid · « **Reply #2022 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:34:12 am »

Good performance last night.

stevensr123 · « **Reply #2023 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:37:40 am »

playing really really well at the moment, I think VVD has played a massive part in it as well.

Our defence is all about complacency and lack of concentration. too many times we have controlled an entire match and for the defence to fall asleep and fuck up. VVD looks to have give the boys a kick up the arse and making them concentrate for 90 minutes.

Think he should be starting next to VVD from now on.

pathetic · « **Reply #2024 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:41:00 am »

Very good performance from him yesterday. I think he's looking much better with VVD next to him. Long may it continue.

Funky_Gibbons · « **Reply #2025 on:** February 15, 2018, 08:48:36 am »

Quote from: stevensr123 on February 15, 2018, 08:37:40 am

playing really really well at the moment, I think VVD has played a massive part in it as well.

Our defence is all about complacency and lack of concentration. too many times we have controlled an entire match and for the defence to fall asleep and fuck up. VVD looks to have give the boys a kick up the arse and making them concentrate for 90 minutes.

Think he should be starting next to VVD from now on.

I'm not sure you can put this all down to VVD but he's certainly helping. Watching the Spurs game and last night, Lovren is doing is much pointing and organising as VVD, there were a few times Lovren was pushing the defence up the pitch and calling the line.

The communication between the pair of them looked really good and as others said, they covered each other really well at crucial times.

Good interception from and pass to Wijanldum to set-up the first goal.

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2026 on:** February 15, 2018, 10:35:33 am »

Quote from: jepovic on February 15, 2018, 08:29:24 am

Yeah, Lovren was boss. For a while our midfield went into silent mode and exposed the back four, but they handled it very well. From a pure defense point of view, I think Lovren is better than VVD and clearly ahead of Matip. He's the most alert and agressive of our defenders. The block is a good example - I don't think Matip or VVD would have reacted that quickly and decisively. Carragher style.

Lovren will be asking Karius today "Where is my hug and ass pats?" He earned a fair few of them. Karius needs to stop playing favourites

BabuYagu · « **Reply #2027 on:** February 15, 2018, 10:38:42 am »

Quote from: Funky_Gibbons on February 15, 2018, 08:48:36 am

I'm not sure you can put this all down to VVD but he's certainly helping. Watching the Spurs game and last night, Lovren is doing is much pointing and organising as VVD, there were a few times Lovren was pushing the defence up the pitch and calling the line.

The communication between the pair of them looked really good and as others said, they covered each other really well at crucial times.

Good interception from and pass to Wijanldum to set-up the first goal.

I said before, it can be as simple as having a partner you trust.

With Matip & Lovren, Matip is too passive and Lovren too aggressive. Therefore it is likely always in his mind that he will need to take action to help Matip. With VVD, he will trust that VVD can handle his shit and focus on what is happening around VVD with runners and free men rather than worrying how to protect & cover for him.

fowlermagic · « **Reply #2028 on:** February 15, 2018, 10:39:27 am »

Also wanted to add how well he is looking lately as he is really stepping it up. VVD addition has given us a kick up the ass and Lovren is benefiting from it as he was our best defender last night. While VVD was lapsing in concentration this lad was fighting to keep a clean sheet. Lovely stuff.

Red Beret · « **Reply #2029 on:** February 15, 2018, 11:34:37 am »

Quote from: Funky_Gibbons on February 15, 2018, 08:48:36 am

I'm not sure you can put this all down to VVD but he's certainly helping. Watching the Spurs game and last night, Lovren is doing is much pointing and organising as VVD, there were a few times Lovren was pushing the defence up the pitch and calling the line.

The communication between the pair of them looked really good and as others said, they covered each other really well at crucial times.

Good interception from and pass to Wijanldum to set-up the first goal.

As has been said, our main problem in defence has been players going to sleep. I reckon VVD is just getting the best out of our defence. It's not like they were complete mugs before he got here, but if VVD is keeping them sharp and getting them to play to their full potential for the whole 90 minutes then it can only be a good thing. He has them playing with confidence and assuredness.

Poet · « **Reply #2030 on:** February 15, 2018, 01:46:05 pm »

Quote from: clinical on February 15, 2018, 08:31:50 am

Was brilliant that.

He's been really good lately, but we've seen this before. Really good and then a few shockers.

Leave the negativity out.

He's now playing alongside a beast of a man and oozing in confidence.

Bob Sacamano · « **Reply #2031 on:** February 15, 2018, 03:23:00 pm »

Quote from: clinical on February 15, 2018, 08:31:50 am

Was brilliant that.

He's been really good lately, but we've seen this before. Really good and then a few shockers.

Pretty much. We know what Lovren is. And therefore we know he should be replaced in the summer.

farawayred · « **Reply #2032 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:28:41 pm »

Another good game from Lovren. I think that Matip is the better CB but, strangely, our best CB pairing seems to be Lovren - van Dijk, it makes Lovren calm. Sure, he has the odd error in him, but in the long run we'd be OK for next year if we don't go after a better CB.

rafathegaffa83 · « **Reply #2033 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:33:58 pm »

Very good from him today. Unfortunate not to score either

dogeibbor · « **Reply #2034 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:38:05 pm »

Pretty much flawless today.

rscanderlech · « **Reply #2035 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:50:05 pm »

Quote from: farawayred on March 3, 2018, 07:28:41 pm

Another good game from Lovren. I think that Matip is the better CB but, strangely, our best CB pairing seems to be Lovren - van Dijk, it makes Lovren calm. Sure, he has the odd error in him, but in the long run we'd be OK for next year if we don't go after a better CB.

I'm not really sure about that. I think it depends on the opposition. Lovren is better in the air, and a little more aggressive and assertive. Matip is calmer and better playing out.

Djimi Smicer34 · « **Reply #2036 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:53:46 pm »

He was excellent today, I'm really enjoying this partnership between him and van Dijk.

farawayred · « **Reply #2037 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:58:09 pm »

Quote from: rscanderlech on March 3, 2018, 07:50:05 pm

I'm not really sure about that. I think it depends on the opposition. Lovren is better in the air, and a little more aggressive and assertive. Matip is calmer and better playing out.

What i meant is that Lovren improves a lot next to van Dijk, whereas Matip doesn't change his play. You're right that tactically one may be preferred over the other, depending on the opposition, but if I had to pick our best CB pairing, its van Dijk-Lovren for me.

rscanderlech · « **Reply #2038 on:** March 3, 2018, 07:59:46 pm »

Quote from: farawayred on March 3, 2018, 07:58:09 pm

What i meant is that Lovren improves a lot next to van Dijk, whereas Matip doesn't change his play. You're right that tactically one may be preferred over the other, depending on the opposition, but if I had to pick our best CB pairing, its van Dijk-Lovren for me.

I agree with that!

simesy · « **Reply #2039 on:** March 3, 2018, 09:30:02 pm »

It's all about the best partnership at cb and not necessarily about the two best defenders.