Topic: Injury news only thread. *

[Djimi Smicer34]

This stinks, and not because of the medical staff at the club. It stinks of Karius and his agent going on a PR offensive to get some sympathy for his performance.

Rubbish.

The club were concerned about him and told him to go to hospital in the US and take the tests.  This has nothing to do with a PR offensive or a ploy for sympathy, that is utterly ridiculous.

[RedGlen]

A few things to take into account:

1) Karius took a blow to the head from Ramos and immediately got up therefore the medical staff would not have entered the field of play. If Karius was then experiencing any symptoms it is HIS responsibility to inform the referee and then the clubs medical staff.

2) UEFA do not allow a stoppage of play to run a concussion protocol. There is no head injury assessment protocol in football. The laws of the game state the game must be immediately stopped if a player is showing signs of a head injury. As said above Karius immediately got up and complained about the challenge, not about any injury he may have sustained, and then played the rest of the game without saying anything. Players get hit in the head all the time in football, they do not require an immediate assessment from medical staff.

3) Concussion symptoms can occur up for 48-72 hours following a head impact

4) At present imaging and testing are important research tools but their use as a clinical assessment for diagnosis of concussion requires further validation. Essentially imaging, in the form of MRI or CT scans, have not been proven to be useful diagnostic tools for concussion - as per the Berlin Consensus Statement on Concussion in 2017

5) The Berlin Consensus Statement also recommends onward referral for symptoms that persist for more than 10-14 days, seeing as we're under that marker its safe to say the club haven't ordered these 'tests'. This onward referral process does not recommend the use of imaging as there is insufficient evidence behind them and are only encouraged for research purposes.

6) Concussion is a medical opinion based on the symptoms that a player may or may not present with following a force sustained to the head, it is not a clinical diagnosis.

7) There is not a fucking hope in hell that the club are sending Karius for these medical exams and releasing the above statements if they consider him to have had a concussion. They'd keep it in house, they'd keep him at Melwood to undergo the rehabilitation he needed and not let him swan off to the states to continue it without guidance or support. Now, considering that elite athletes are allowed to undertake an accelerated pathway for return to play following concussion within a week I'd expect him to have already made a full enough recovery that would allow him to play by now otherwise, again, the club wouldn't have let him leave for his holiday.

This stinks, and not because of the medical staff at the club. It stinks of Karius and his agent going on a PR offensive to get some sympathy for his performance.

Spot on, on all counts!

[Asam]

I do feel sorry for Karius but if he was injured then he or someone in our coaching staff should have told him to stay down, we are so naive at times, we just want to get on with play but you need to make the most out of every situation for the benefit of your own side

[sms1986]

I do feel sorry for Karius but if he was injured then he or someone in our coaching staff should have told him to stay down, we are so naive at times, we just want to get on with play but you need to make the most out of every situation for the benefit of your own side

Read Welshred's post, the first point means that they wouldn't have had a chance.

[Rush 82]

A few things to take into account:

1) Karius took a blow to the head from Ramos and immediately got up therefore the medical staff would not have entered the field of play. If Karius was then experiencing any symptoms it is HIS responsibility to inform the referee and then the clubs medical staff.

2) UEFA do not allow a stoppage of play to run a concussion protocol. There is no head injury assessment protocol in football. The laws of the game state the game must be immediately stopped if a player is showing signs of a head injury. As said above Karius immediately got up and complained about the challenge, not about any injury he may have sustained, and then played the rest of the game without saying anything. Players get hit in the head all the time in football, they do not require an immediate assessment from medical staff.

3) Concussion symptoms can occur up for 48-72 hours following a head impact

4) At present imaging and testing are important research tools but their use as a clinical assessment for diagnosis of concussion requires further validation. Essentially imaging, in the form of MRI or CT scans, have not been proven to be useful diagnostic tools for concussion - as per the Berlin Consensus Statement on Concussion in 2017

5) The Berlin Consensus Statement also recommends onward referral for symptoms that persist for more than 10-14 days, seeing as we're under that marker its safe to say the club haven't ordered these 'tests'. This onward referral process does not recommend the use of imaging as there is insufficient evidence behind them and are only encouraged for research purposes.

6) Concussion is a medical opinion based on the symptoms that a player may or may not present with following a force sustained to the head, it is not a clinical diagnosis.

7) There is not a fucking hope in hell that the club are sending Karius for these medical exams and releasing the above statements if they consider him to have had a concussion. They'd keep it in house, they'd keep him at Melwood to undergo the rehabilitation he needed and not let him swan off to the states to continue it without guidance or support. Now, considering that elite athletes are allowed to undertake an accelerated pathway for return to play following concussion within a week I'd expect him to have already made a full enough recovery that would allow him to play by now otherwise, again, the club wouldn't have let him leave for his holiday.

This stinks, and not because of the medical staff at the club. It stinks of Karius and his agent going on a PR offensive to get some sympathy for his performance.

Oh, so the reports saying the club sent him to a facility used by FSG are part of that PR offensive?

[Scott0908]

This stinks, and not because of the medical staff at the club. It stinks of Karius and his agent going on a PR offensive to get some sympathy for his performance.

yep totally agree.

[Lofty Ambitions]

Yep. Commentators on my feed spoke about it too.

He definitely complained to the ref who promptly waved it on the useless fucking arsehole

It shows clearly on LFCTV match recording, if you have it. Knowing what to look at, it's clear Ramos saw a chance having felt the nudge by VVD and elbowed him on purpose. Bloody hell what a final that ended up being.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Read Welshred's post, the first point means that they wouldn't have had a chance.

Except he didn't get up, the commentators said at the time that he had stayed on the ground and he was apparently signalling to the officials that he'd been elbowed in the head.

[Welshred]

Oh, so the reports saying the club sent him to a facility used by FSG are part of that PR offensive?

I call bullshit. There's absolutely nothing from the club on this, if the club released that statement I'd believe it and not the medical facility that released it due to the rumours.

[TepidT2O]

On the first point of welshreds post.

Whilst Karius is responsible for his own health, one of the signs of co cushion is not being able to recognise concussion.

[Welshred]

Except he didn't get up, the commentators said at the time that he had stayed on the ground and he was apparently signalling to the officials that he'd been elbowed in the head.

He got up. He showed no sign of a head injury at the time. He played on. You can't pin this on the clubs medical staff.

[Nick110581]

Nothing gained from this.

We lost so it’s the end.

[Djimi Smicer34]

He got up. He showed no sign of a head injury at the time. He played on. You can't pin this on the clubs medical staff.

I'm not pinning it on anyone, I'm repeating what the commentators and reports of the game have said. 

And I don't buy for a second that this is a PR offensive by the player and that the club had no idea he was going for a scan.

[TepidT2O]

He got up. He showed no sign of a head injury at the time. He played on. You can't pin this on the clubs medical staff.

Not at all convinced by this argument. The fact he gets up quickly does not in anyway mean he couldn’t have had a head injury.

[Welshred]

You don't have to buy it. It is, after all, my opinion. However I don't believe that the club would have allowed the release of information from the medical centre that Karius attended through any means other than the club itself. If that turns out to be wrong then discount what I said but there would be absolutely no indication to send Karius for imaging or further tests than what the club itself are able to carry out at this stage of his rehab process.

[Welshred]

Not at all convinced by this argument. The fact he gets up quickly does not in anyway mean he couldn’t have had a head injury.

Correct, but it also doesn't immediately indicate a stoppage in play for a medical assessment to be carried out.

[Dave D]

How is it up to Karius to tell the medical staff that he'd been elbowed in the head and could be possibly suffering from concussion?

I doubt he was thinking straight. Is there anybody willing to take a flying elbow to the side of the head to prove otherwise? 

The officials and 4th officials should have done more.

[Lofty Ambitions]

Except he didn't get up, the commentators said at the time that he had stayed on the ground and he was apparently signalling to the officials that he'd been elbowed in the head.

Here's a public stream showing Karius' reaction. There might be better ones of course, this is what I found after a quick look:

https://twitter.com/68Bor/status/1000484828662427648

[Rush 82]

I call bullshit. There's absolutely nothing from the club on this, if the club released that statement I'd believe it and not the medical facility that released it due to the rumours.

I wonder - maybe it's politic not to at this point.

After all, what's done is done and we'd simply look like sore losers.

Let's see shall we

[Ray K]

I'm not pinning it on anyone, I'm repeating what the commentators and reports of the game have said. 

And I don't buy for a second that this is a PR offensive by the player and that the club had no idea he was going for a scan.

The ESPN report said he was sent to Mass General at the behest of the Liverpool medical team, rather than Karius himself. Don't know why Welshred thinks that this was a personal / PR strategy. Smacks of victim blaming, if you ask me.

[Samie]

Listen to Welshie lads, he massages people's thighs for a living.

[Welshred]

How is it up to Karius to tell the medical staff that he'd been elbowed in the head and could be possibly suffering from concussion?

I doubt he was thinking straight. Is there anybody willing to take a flying elbow to the side of the head to prove otherwise? 

The officials and 4th officials should have done more.

Here's a public stream showing Karius' reaction. There might be better ones of course, this is what I found after a quick look:

https://twitter.com/68Bor/status/1000484828662427648

He's up in what, 5-6 seconds and complaining that he's been elbowed in the face? He's not showing any balance on coordination issues. There's no way anyone would look at him and think "this guy is concussed"

As I said there is no head injury assessment protocol in football and the officials are under no obligation to stop the game when the player is not showing any signs of a head injury. If Karius was feeling the effects of a head injury its his responsibility to tell people as the match officials and club medical staff aren't bloody mind readers.

[Lynndenberries]

I don't necessarily blame Karius or the medical staff, but it's clear after a situation like this concussion protocol needs to be addressed.

One thing that is infuriating at the moment is seeing fans still making fun of him after this has come out. We lost, it happens, but have some sympathy for the guy, no matter who you support.

[Dim Glas]

Listen to Welshie lads, he massages people's thighs for a living.

or maybe listen to him on medical things if you want to, but not when he's accusing a player of trying to elicit sympathy and play the PR card. 

[Rush 82]

Correct, but it also doesn't immediately indicate a stoppage in play for a medical assessment to be carried out.

Other sports codes have acknowledged and put protocols in place - why is football different in this regard?

[paddysour]

Here's a public stream showing Karius' reaction. There might be better ones of course, this is what I found after a quick look:

https://twitter.com/68Bor/status/1000484828662427648

Contrary to some posts on here - neither the officials nor Karius are qualified to diagnose a concussion. The fact the referee was alerted by Karius should have been enough to stop the play and get the doctor on to look. It's already in the rules that the game is to be stopped for head injuries, and as I say, a referee isn't a doctor.

[mikey_LFC]

You don't have to buy it. It is, after all, my opinion. However I don't believe that the club would have allowed the release of information from the medical centre that Karius attended through any means other than the club itself. If that turns out to be wrong then discount what I said but there would be absolutely no indication to send Karius for imaging or further tests than what the club itself are able to carry out at this stage of his rehab process.

Your opinion completely goes against what a trained professional doctor has diagnosed.

It would be quite the conspiracy for a Doctor to lie publicly about a diagnosis.

[Lynndenberries]

He's up in what, 5-6 seconds and complaining that he's been elbowed in the face? He's not showing any balance on coordination issues. There's no way anyone would look at him and think "this guy is concussed"

As I said there is no head injury assessment protocol in football and the officials are under no obligation to stop the game when the player is not showing any signs of a head injury. If Karius was feeling the effects of a head injury its his responsibility to tell people as the match officials and club medical staff aren't bloody mind readers.

People don't always feel the effects of concussions right away.

[sms1986]

One thing that is infuriating at the moment is seeing fans still making fun of him after this has come out. We lost, it happens, but have some sympathy for the guy, no matter who you support.

Where are they doing this? Are they our fans or rival fans?

[Lofty Ambitions]

or maybe listen to him on medical things if you want to, but not when he's accusing a player of trying to elicit sympathy and play the PR card.

We can't know for sure what happened, that's true. But while waiting for more facts (or maybe we shouldn't), why don't we indeed bin YNWA. That stupid song about weather.

[Welshred]

The ESPN report said he was sent to Mass General at the behest of the Liverpool medical team, rather than Karius himself. Don't know why Welshred thinks that this was a personal / PR strategy. Smacks of victim blaming, if you ask me.

So why haven't the club released any statements on it then? Why leave it to the Mass General to release statements on it? Why go against all known medical evidence as indicated by the Berlin Consensus Statement on Concussion, created by a whole host of the worlds top sports physicians, to get medical imaging that has no clinical relevance? Why do something that just makes the whole fanbase think the medical side of the club is incompetent at best and negligent at worst?

[Nick110581]

I don't necessarily blame Karius or the medical staff, but it's clear after a situation like this concussion protocol needs to be addressed.

One thing that is infuriating at the moment is seeing fans still making fun of him after this has come out. We lost, it happens, but have some sympathy for the guy, no matter who you support.

People will take the piss as it’s naturak for opposing fans to do so.

[Chalky Boots]

You just know the club won't address this in any way, shape or form. It'll be similar to Sakho's disgraceful ban 2 years ago, where they acted like shithouses and just took it on the chin and carried on

Fucking say something about it Liverpool

I might be missing something but I don't see the correlation between a player being suspended for drugs use and a goalkeeper suffering an impairing injury in the middle of his biggest game.

[Djimi Smicer34]

or maybe listen to him on medical things if you want to, but not when he's accusing a player of trying to elicit sympathy and play the PR card.

Agreed.

I find it strange that anyone would blame Karius - I don't think it's necessary to blame anyone.  It happened, the proper diagnosis has been issued and the player is on the road to a full recovery.  Hopefully some lessons will be learned from it and a situation like this doesn't arise again.

[Dave D]

He's up in what, 5-6 seconds and complaining that he's been elbowed in the face? He's not showing any balance on coordination issues. There's no way anyone would look at him and think "this guy is concussed"

As I said there is no head injury assessment protocol in football and the officials are under no obligation to stop the game when the player is not showing any signs of a head injury. If Karius was feeling the effects of a head injury its his responsibility to tell people as the match officials and club medical staff aren't bloody mind readers.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to concussions.

[sms1986]

I might be missing something but I don't see the correlation between a player being suspended for drugs use and a goalkeeper suffering an impairing injury in the middle of his biggest game.

There's not, it's just a cheap shot at the club.

[Red Beret]

Another reason to hate fucking Ramos.   

[Welshred]

Other sports codes have acknowledged and put protocols in place - why is football different in this regard?

Ask FIFA and UEFA. Football needs a head injury assessment, 100%, but the laws of football don't currently allow it.

Your opinion completely goes against what a trained professional doctor has diagnosed.

It would be quite the conspiracy for a Doctor to lie publicly about a diagnosis.

You can't clinical diagnose concussion. It's a medical opinion.

People don't always feel the effects of concussions right away.

As I said in my first post.

[BrandoLFC]

See this just gets to my earlier point that Head Injuries, unless physically obvious in that the guys head is open and bleeding everywhere, are treated in at least the UK as something that almost doesn't exist.  The twitter responses to Mark Ogden's posting the link to the medical statement is disgraceful.  The way this sport deals with head injuries is really poor and to then say that this is some player or club PR stunt is almost laughable as every other club would have done the same thing at best.

A defender pushing a player happens on almost every set play in any professional game.  The player that was then pushed swinging out an elbow to hit the GKer, I seriously can't remember that ever happening before though I'm sure it has.  Again Ramos is scum and our GK was probably not in the right state of mind to be playing but the rules of the game combined with general outlook of these types of injuries in my mind means nothing different would have happened.

[Welshred]

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to concussions.

Not like its my job or anything