Topic: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤

[Fromola]

Klopp expects him to be back Sunday.

[farawayred]

He didn't show up today...

[Hazell]

He didn't show up today...

Hiding as usual.

[Eeyore]

Hiding as usual.

 

[BCCC]

Missed the lad tonight

[Eeyore]

Missed the lad tonight

The lad who took his position basically won us the match.

[farawayred]

The lad who took his position basically won us the match.

Is the glass half full or half empty?

If Endo wasn't hiding , Macca would have been released further forward and we could have won that game convincingly. Just my perception.

[BCCC]

The lad who took his position basically won us the match.

Would've won it earlier if Endo was behind him as he'd have played higher up the park.

[Eeyore]

Would've won it earlier if Endo was behind him as he'd have played higher up the park.

Macca, Szob and Grav offer more in an attacking sense than Endo, Macca and Szob though. They also allowed Bradley to play really high and we offered up pretty much nothing on the counterattack down our right. Tonight I thought Macca was exceptional defensively and we tended to snuff out attacks before they really started.

[BCCC]

Macca, Szob and Grav offer more in an attacking sense than Endo, Macca and Szob though. They also allowed Bradley to play really high and we offered up pretty much nothing on the counterattack down our right. Tonight I thought Macca was exceptional defensively and we tended to snuff out attacks before they really started.

I agree Mac Allister was great defensively but we missed him higher up the pitch until the shape was changed late on. Endo would've freed him up.

[classycarra]

Would've won it earlier if Endo was behind him as he'd have played higher up the park.

Record breaking possession in a game, against about the deepest team you'll ever see, with a whole range of our talented young midfielders featuring (and our best midfielder putting on a masterclass almost entirely in Endo's position) and you're wishing we had another defensive midfielder on?

Roy Hodgson, is that you?

[Fair enough though, we all see games differently]

[Eeyore]

I agree Mac Allister was great defensively but we missed him higher up the pitch until the shape was changed late on. Endo would've freed him up.

The change of shape didn't really allow Macca to get higher up the pitch though. The change of shape was about getting more width, not about Macca being higher up the pitch.

[Kashinoda]

[Kalito]

 

[jckliew]

He didn't show up today...

Sell

[BCCC]

The change of shape didn't really allow Macca to get higher up the pitch though. The change of shape was about getting more width, not about Macca being higher up the pitch.

We clearly see the game differently so we'll leave at that

[spider-neil]

Does missing the game now mean he can't get a two game ban? The yellow cards get reset on game 32 and Endo needs two more yellow cards to reach 10.

[Knight]

I can see it both ways re Endo and Mac’s position. On the one hand having Mac as a 6 means we have more attacking midfielders on the pitch and so it feels a little odd to argue for Endo in a game where we had the most possession ever. But on the other hand, the 2 8s we had on the pitch weren’t very good and Mac would definitely have done a better job than them.

[BCCC]

I can see it both ways re Endo and Mac’s position. On the one hand having Mac as a 6 means we have more attacking midfielders on the pitch and so it feels a little odd to argue for Endo in a game where we had the most possession ever. But on the other hand, the 2 8s we had on the pitch weren’t very good and Mac would definitely have done a better job than them.

I don't think anyone is arguing for Endo vs Sheff Utd but more generally regarding Endo giving Mac Allister more freedom.

[Nick110581]

Does missing the game now mean he can't get a two game ban? The yellow cards get reset on game 32 and Endo needs two more yellow cards to reach 10.

Think it resets after Palace so he can still get a ban.

[spider-neil]

Think it resets after Palace so he can still get a ban.

Then I wouldn't play him in the Palace game because I'm pretty sure he will pick up a yellow in the Manu game. After Palace, it's three away games in a row. Endo will be crucial for that.

[Bobinhood]

The lad who took his position basically won us the match.

Team was lethargic without him. It was the middle game of 3 in 7 days against a weak opponent at home, so a smart experienced team would try and conserve energy as much as possible and its more than fair to say they did that, but surely you must concede the infectious nature of endos hustle and effort has a massive positive effect on our team.

Team dynamics are very often more or less than the sum of the parts (which is why the full on xg crowd doesn't quite get it imo). Gravenbach was in and hes everything you say you want, big strong fast great on the ball, Klopp could easily use him as a 6 and has said so, not shitting on him because hes got a lot of potential and hes young but do you suppose he has the same kind of galvanizing effect on the team?

I dropped in to see if you noted the difference but doesn't look like it.  We still had way more skill than sheffield and all of the ball but the water wont carry itself.

[Knight]

I don't think anyone is arguing for Endo vs Sheff Utd but more generally regarding Endo giving Mac Allister more freedom.

Plenty of people are saying it would have been better to have Endo on the pitch had he been available.

[BCCC]

Plenty of people are saying it would have been better to have Endo on the pitch had he been available.

You're preaching to the converted here, Endo makes Mac Allister better as far as I'm concerned. A few pages back I said my midfield of choice is Endo, Mac Allister +1 other.

[Realgman]

Yeah 100% Endo allows Mac Allister to shine, and vice versa in a way... please both be available for Sunday

[FlashGordon]

Record breaking possession in a game, against about the deepest team you'll ever see, with a whole range of our talented young midfielders featuring (and our best midfielder putting on a masterclass almost entirely in Endo's position) and you're wishing we had another defensive midfielder on?

Roy Hodgson, is that you?

[Fair enough though, we all see games differently]

Well yes, because Endo is great at playing passes through the lines to the 8s and McAllister is hands down the best 8 in the league if not the world at the moment. So it might have been useful having him closer to the box to break down their wall. I'm not sure how it's that crazy a suggestion?

[classycarra]

Well yes, because Endo is great at playing passes through the lines to the 8s and McAllister is hands down the best 8 in the league if not the world at the moment. So it might have been useful having him closer to the box to break down their wall. I'm not sure how it's that crazy a suggestion?

we started with Mac in the deepest role where he is - not just in my opinion, but also objectively since it's easily measured - significantly better (and in my opinion faster and more creative) at playing passes through the lines than Endo. Then when we needed a goal, we switched to playing an attacking 4-4-2 that Klopp said he used to inject pace when he added Robbo and Elliot.

Adding Endo into that midfield 2 (or possibly even a midfield 3, as you're suggesting playing him behind Mac) when needing to score against a team sitting extremely deep is an option. I didn't say it's crazy, I said it's conservative (I'd probably say it was deeply conservative actually). Not really seeing how you could have much argument against that?

[FlashGordon]

we started with Mac in the deepest role where he is - not just in my opinion, but also objectively since it's easily measured - significantly better (and in my opinion faster and more creative) at playing passes through the lines than Endo. Then when we needed a goal, we switched to playing an attacking 4-4-2 that Klopp said he used to inject pace when he added Robbo and Elliot.

Adding Endo into that midfield 2 (or possibly even a midfield 3, as you're suggesting playing him behind Mac) when needing to score against a team sitting extremely deep is an option. I didn't say it's crazy, I said it's conservative (I'd probably say it was deeply conservative actually). Not really seeing how you could have much argument against that?

If we had started with Endo as the 6 and Macca as an 8 we would have been 2 or 3 up at half time. No need to inject the pace in the second half. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say we should have brought Endo on in the second half to change the game. The point is if we started with him we wouldn't have been in that spot of bother.

Macca is head and shoulders above Endo on the ball, no complaints from me there, but who he's passing the ball to makes a difference. I'd rather Endo passing it to Macca further up the pitch than Macca passing it to any of our other 8s further up the pitch at the moment.

[classycarra]

If we had started with Endo as the 6 and Macca as an 8 we would have been 2 or 3 up at half time. No need to inject the pace in the second half. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say we should have brought Endo on in the second half to change the game. The point is if we started with him we wouldn't have been in that spot of bother.

This is essentially fan-fic. You're welcome to the opinion, but in this hypothetical world of 'this player playing instead would have meant more goals' my preference when prioritising scoring would be to fit more of our most creative and controlling midfielder players onto the pitch rather than adding the least creative of the senior midfield options. Obviously neither of these options is anything more than a preference/opinion.

Macca is head and shoulders above Endo on the ball, no complaints from me there, but who he's passing the ball to makes a difference. I'd rather Endo passing it to Macca further up the pitch than Macca passing it to any of our other 8s further up the pitch at the moment.

Again, purely preference, i see this the exact opposite way to you here.

I'd rather have our best defensive midfielder (Mac - not just because of how he is on the ball, but also defensively without it) be the one with the responsibility to knit the buildup and pass it up the pitch against the worst and deepest sitting team in the league - rather than having an inferior (not meaning to sound harsh - its just relative to Mac everyone is worse) passer have to do it. That applies at any point last night too, whether it's to our front three/Szobo/Elliot/Jones/Gakpo. I'd rather have all of them on the ball looking to find a man when over the half way line

obviously having Mac be higher up to receive it reaps huge rewards too, but lets not forget he scored the winner yesterday playing as our deepest midfielder (and almost scored a second) so it's evidently still possible to reap those rewards without having Endo on the pitch behind him

[Eeyore]

If we had started with Endo as the 6 and Macca as an 8 we would have been 2 or 3 up at half time. No need to inject the pace in the second half. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say we should have brought Endo on in the second half to change the game. The point is if we started with him we wouldn't have been in that spot of bother.

Macca is head and shoulders above Endo on the ball, no complaints from me there, but who he's passing the ball to makes a difference. I'd rather Endo passing it to Macca further up the pitch than Macca passing it to any of our other 8s further up the pitch at the moment.

The thing is for me Endo tends to struggle initially with the intensity of the start of games. For me he looks a different animal in the last twenty of games compared to the first twenty. He isn't the quickest at the start of games but has incredible endurance. It is not as if we have been blowing teams away in the first half with Endo in the team.

I think we have a clear game plan against park the bus teams. We play pretty narrow for the first hour. The inverted full back plays inside and we basically pass teams to death. We play as if it is 11 v 10. We move the ball around and work the opposition. First half of the season it was Trent who was playing inside for an hour and then we would go to basically a midfield two and push the fullbacks on.

In that initial hour Macca doesn't really push on and play higher up the pitch because the space simply isn't there. An example would be Brighton where for an hour he was dropping in as a deep lying playmaker and playing as a quarterback looking to find Salah with lofted passes.

I think it is disingenuous to suggest that we would have been 2 or 3-0 up at half time if Endo had played. I mean how many times have we done that in League games this season. We come on strong in the 2nd half and especially late in games. The likes of Macca don't thrive because Endo is there he thrives when the game opens up. 

[FlashGordon]

This is essentially fan-fic. You're welcome to the opinion, but in this hypothetical world of 'this player playing instead would have meant more goals' my preference when prioritising scoring would be to fit more of our most creative and controlling midfielder players onto the pitch rather than adding the least creative of the senior midfield options. Obviously neither of these options is anything more than a preference/opinion.
Again, purely preference, i see this the exact opposite way to you here.

I'd rather have our best defensive midfielder (Mac - not just because of how he is on the ball, but also defensively without it) be the one with the responsibility to knit the buildup and pass it up the pitch against the worst and deepest sitting team in the league - rather than having an inferior (not meaning to sound harsh - its just relative to Mac everyone is worse) passer have to do it. That applies at any point last night too, whether it's to our front three/Szobo/Elliot/Jones/Gakpo. I'd rather have all of them on the ball looking to find a man when over the half way line

obviously having Mac be higher up to receive it reaps huge rewards too, but lets not forget he scored the winner yesterday playing as our deepest midfielder (and almost scored a second) so it's evidently still possible to reap those rewards without having Endo on the pitch behind him

Everything s fan-fic as you call it. We are fans and haven't a clue really as to what would happen if different decisions were made.

My eyes tell me Endo is perfectly capable at starting the buildup. Yours don't. Fair enuogh. I think we can both agree on Macca being our most creative midfielder, I'd prefer that midfielder closer to the goals.

He scored his goal on the edge of their box, where an 8 would usually find himself and I haven't a clue how the position he is playing is relative to him hitting a free kick.

[FlashGordon]

The thing is for me Endo tends to struggle initially with the intensity of the start of games. For me he looks a different animal in the last twenty of games compared to the first twenty. He isn't the quickest at the start of games but has incredible endurance. It is not as if we have been blowing teams away in the first half with Endo in the team.

I think we have a clear game plan against park the bus teams. We play pretty narrow for the first hour. The inverted full back plays inside and we basically pass teams to death. We play as if it is 11 v 10. We move the ball around and work the opposition. First half of the season it was Trent who was playing inside for an hour and then we would go to basically a midfield two and push the fullbacks on.

In that initial hour Macca doesn't really push on and play higher up the pitch because the space simply isn't there. An example would be Brighton where for an hour he was dropping in as a deep lying playmaker and playing as a quarterback looking to find Salah with lofted passes.

I think it is disingenuous to suggest that we would have been 2 or 3-0 up at half time if Endo had played. I mean how many times have we done that in League games this season. We come on strong in the 2nd half and especially late in games. The likes of Macca don't thrive because Endo is there he thrives when the game opens up.

I find this disingenuous as do countless others on here and you've been called out on it before. He's started maybe 2 or 3 games sluggishly.

Not sure why I even ventured in to this thread to be honest, I'll bow out of it now.

[classycarra]

I really don't know what it is about discussing Endo that stirs so many people's emotions. Not just talking you FG - it's been a theme in here for weeks. He's not even played

My eyes tell me Endo is perfectly capable at starting the buildup. Yours don't. Fair enuogh. I think we can both agree on Macca being our most creative midfielder, I'd prefer that midfielder closer to the goals.

Yeah course we agree on that. And as I've said all along, it's just a preference thing. I remember there used to be different schools of thought, sometimes by country, of where you'd like your most creative or most important in terms of setting tempo midfielder to play - eg Xavi, do you play him high or deep?

Bit I don't agree with is saying Endo isn't capable of starting a buildup - haven't said that, you're putting words in my mouth. Said he's not as good at it as Mac, nor as quick - nothing controversial in me saying that, nothing shameful in Endo not being as good at it either because same applies to all his teammates.

He scored his goal on the edge of their box, where an 8 would usually find himself

he scored from where our deepest mid (or 6) found himself on the night. again, just a preference thing, but this is part of why I'm more in favour of having more of your best scorers and creators on rather than another DM because I'd rather that ball fall for Mac (or Jones, or Elliot, or Szobo) than a DM like Endo (even though Endo has quite a tidy shot on him in my opinion)

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

I really don't know what it is about discussing Endo that stirs so many people's emotions. Not just talking you FG - it's been a theme in here for weeks. He's not even played

It's probably because no matter how well he plays, his performances seemingly get dissected more than I've ever come across in an attempt to criticise him and his perceived flaws. Putting any sort of blame on him for the goal Brighton scored was the perfect example.

I don't know if it's some kind of PTSD from last season and Fabinho's obvious regression, but we seem to be in a period where any goal scored against us or even any kind of counter attack gets pinned on the number 6. It's weird.

Go into any player thread on here after a win and it will generally be nothing but praise. Yet in here, posters seems just as keen to rush in and pull his performance apart, or give him some back-handed compliments. That then is obviously going to lead to counter points.

[classycarra]

It's probably because no matter how well he plays, his performances seemingly get dissected more than I've ever come across in an attempt to criticise him and his perceived flaws. Putting any sort of blame on him for the goal Brighton scored was the perfect example.

I don't know if it's some kind of PTSD from last season and Fabinho's obvious regression, but we seem to be in a period where any goal scored against us or even any kind of counter attack gets pinned on the number 6. It's weird.

Go into any player thread on here after a win and it will generally be nothing but praise. Yet in here, posters seems just as keen to rush in and pull his performance apart, or give him some back-handed compliments. That then is obviously going to lead to counter points.

hopefully you have the self awareness to realise how big your contribution was to the extended discussion post-Brighton! haven't been about much myself the last few weeks, but caught some of that discussion while travelling.

everyone's allowed counter points, but in this most recent example Al came in here and offered a very run of the mill reasonable assessment of Endo's performance. not long after, you pounced on him, putting words in his mouth . deciding that his compliments had a hidden meaning and had ill intent [read for yourself, copied below]. ironically projecting about a 'vendetta' after yet another time pouncing on Al. as you yourself put it of course "that obviously leads to counter points".

you then made 6 more posts about it all, so yeah i guess i can see why you're saying his performances are being dissected a lot when you've been a big contributor.

Neat and tidy in possession but just not quick enough against counterattacks. Just ends up with players running off him. Doing a good job but we need a six with more pace against the counter.

Al you've got such a vendetta against Endo that you've created this thing in your mind whereby every chance we concede is because of him. No 6 in the history of football can cover the whole pitch and stop all midfield runners, especially against Brighton, and especially when part of his role is to actually at times press high up the pitch.

Now of course Endo would be a better player if he was faster. But he's doing a fucking great job regardless, and that great job extends much, much further than him being "neat and tidy in possession".

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

you pounced on him, putting words in his mouth .

 

[Draex]

Kinky.

[The_Nomad]

Anyone else get reminded of the following lines when certain posters start dissecting Endo’s performances?

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

[Draex]

Anyone else get reminded of the following lines when certain posters start dissecting Endo’s performances?

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

More a moderns man rather than the classics myself.

[Bobinhood]

no no no Modern hell. he didn't go back far enough. A keyboard classic from the late 70's


going round in circles
Compass is all messed up
i go to ground on a bottle of wine
drown myself in the flood

My frozen toes are beginning to thaw
i believe im catching a cold
Got all of my feathers but still cant fly
I've gotta get back to your love

Im a clown without a circus
there's no one to see my act
I can laugh and sing and stand on my head
but nobody knows where im at

well its hard to be convincing
when these blues wont give an inch
i aint exactly losing
but im beginning to feel the pinch

Manfred Mann

https://youtu.be/SPzi1Nlc3ho


Also not saying im taking sides in the debate but im playing a game of Civilization and ive just founded a religion and named it "Waturo"     Lion logo.