Topic: George Best - on a par with Messi?

[Dr. Beaker]

It's so interesting. I've had to revise one or two things after seeing some of the highlight reels. First George Best doing the 'Cruyff Turn' before Cruyff*. Then Rivelino doing the 'Elastico' before Ronaldhino. Someone will pop up doing the 'Roulette' years before Zidane next.

I also used to believe Bugsy Burrows was the most skilful footballer I'd ever seen. Not any more.

*I've just remembered my mate who is a performance artist and once came up with a stunning piece of himself performing what he considered the three greatest 'moves' of the 20th century. The first was a sort of imitation of Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon, the second was the Chinese student shuffling from side to side to stop the tank regiment in Tiananmen Square, and the third was the Cruyff Turn. Not bad. 

Could he do the Pele header v Banks? We all tried for years and failed miserably. Best header ever, best save ever, and the pass from Carlos Alberto to Jairzinho deserves careful study - amazing.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

A couple things:

1.  Georgie Best is/was a genius

2.  What a thread lads, what a thread

3.  My contribution - not as complete player as the ones mentioned here - and certainly not a Red, but someone who brought me immense joy in watching him play

            A.  His technical finishing (pace, power, accuracy) is among some of the tops of his generation.
           
            B.   You always feel like he could come up with something big, in a big moment - some of his free kicks are pure filth

            C.   Not represented here on this video - but his vision for a pass or a sequence of passes is one of the best of his generation as well.


I offer you ----->  some joy in an imperfect vessel - 55 Goals by Dmitri Payet (one player who reminds me that miracles happen every day)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk75DTn6Mgs

[Stubbins]

Only Garrincha belongs in the goat debate - hopefully.

It certainly gave him a taste for it. He fathered 14 kids apparently.

[scatman]

It's so interesting. I've had to revise one or two things after seeing some of the highlight reels. First George Best doing the 'Cruyff Turn' before Cruyff. Then Rivelino doing the 'Elastico' before Ronaldhino. Someone will pop up doing the 'Roulette' years before Zidane next.

I also used to believe Bugsy Burrows was the most skilful footballer I'd ever seen. Not any more.

Wait till you see Ronaldo doing the elastico before Ronaldinho did it but doing it whilst in a full sprint

Óscar García observed, "I'd never seen anyone play football with such technical ability, creativity and precision at that incredible speed. What stood out to all of us, from the moment we met Ronnie, was that he could do things which other players found very difficult and make them look easy. But he could also produce those things while running at an unbelievable, explosive pace."

still astonishes me some of the things he did whilst at full speed

[Yorkykopite]

Could he do the Pele header v Banks? We all tried for years and failed miserably. Best header ever, best save ever, and the pass from Carlos Alberto to Jairzinho deserves careful study - amazing.

Too right Doc. That Brazilian team (the best ever maybe) seemed to love executing the hardest pass in football - ie the long, straight pass to a player at 12 o'clock. They did something similar in the build-up to the glorious 4th goal in the Final (the one that included Clodoaldo making spaghetti out of Italian legs)

And the thing about Pele (which is also true of Best and Messi) is that he was a superb header of the ball. Just as wonderful as the header you mention was his goal that put Brazil one up in the Final. A flighty cross, a prodigious and early leap, the anti-Newtonian 'hang' in the air, and a snap of the neck to smash the ball home with a thunderous header.

[Dr. Beaker]

Too right Doc. That Brazilian team (the best ever maybe) seemed to love executing the hardest pass in football - ie the long, straight pass to a player at 12 o'clock. They did something similar in the build-up to the glorious 4th goal in the Final (the one that included Clodoaldo making spaghetti out of Italian legs)

And the thing about Pele (which is also true of Best and Messi) is that he was a superb header of the ball. Just as wonderful as the header you mention was his goal that put Brazil one up in the Final. A flighty cross, a prodigious and early leap, the anti-Newtonian 'hang' in the air, and a snap of the neck to smash the ball home with a thunderous header.

The pass was a real daisy cutter with a massive spin on it to take it around Terry Cooper on its first bounce after travelling about thirty yards.

I'll have to go and watch it again, then come on here and apologise because it's a five yard side footer.

[Dr. Beaker]

Well anyway here it is. Forget the save, forget the header, just watch the impossible pass right at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_q2aB5G6o

[PoetryInMotion]

It's so interesting. I've had to revise one or two things after seeing some of the highlight reels. First George Best doing the 'Cruyff Turn' before Cruyff*. Then Rivelino doing the 'Elastico' before Ronaldhino. Someone will pop up doing the 'Roulette' years before Zidane next.

I also used to believe Bugsy Burrows was the most skilful footballer I'd ever seen. Not any more.

*I've just remembered my mate who is a performance artist and once came up with a stunning piece of himself performing what he considered the three greatest 'moves' of the 20th century. The first was a sort of imitation of Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon, the second was the Chinese student shuffling from side to side to stop the tank regiment in Tiananmen Square, and the third was the Cruyff Turn. Not bad.

Rivelino doing the elastico is a famous one. However, I would say that, I don't think it's about who did it first. I think it's about who mastered it and I think Cruyff mastered the Cruyff turn better than anybody up until his time.

[Yorkykopite]

Well anyway here it is. Forget the save, forget the header, just watch the impossible pass right at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_q2aB5G6o

A marvellous pass. A sort of stab with the outside of the boot. Slightly easier to do if you are stationary, but Carlos Alberto was moving with a degree of speed when he did it. (Dare I say it's the kind of pass I'd expect today from Trent?).

The other thing about the whole clip is David Coleman's commentary. He conveyed excitement like no other.

[PoetryInMotion]

Well anyway here it is. Forget the save, forget the header, just watch the impossible pass right at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_q2aB5G6o

 

A moment to remember, that.

[Yorkykopite]

Rivelino doing the elastico is a famous one. However, I would say that, I don't think it's about who did it first. I think it's about who mastered it and I think Cruyff mastered the Cruyff turn better than anybody up until his time.

Unquestionably. (Though I here I will open myself to ridicule by saying no one has been able to execute the 'CT' with either foot quite as well as Lallana).

I sort of disagree with you about the originators though. They are the ones we should reserve our highest praise for. After all it's the conception of a new skill which is difficult. To even conceive it in the mind as a possibility. How do people do that? My suspicion is that children, young lads, do it in street football. That's the place for outrageous experimentation. So it eventually works its way into the professional game from the grass roots.

[Dr. Beaker]

The other thing about the whole clip is David Coleman's commentary. He conveyed excitement like no other.

I always loved his, "Ren-Sen-brink, rensenbrink, (slightly faster) rensenbrink, Rensenbrink, (much faster and louder) RENSENBRINK! One nil."

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Ronaldo def. did the elastico before Ronaldinho

[Yorkykopite]

I always loved his, "Ren-Sen-brink, rensenbrink, (slightly faster) rensenbrink, Rensenbrink, (much faster and louder) RENSENBRINK! One nil."

Or to expand on the theme. Keegan! One nil! That makes it Two-One to Liverpool.

[Dr. Beaker]

Or to expand on the theme. Keegan! One nil! That makes it Two-One to Liverpool.

Going well off topic now but must mention the time he obviously had a huge tribute speech ready (probably written down on a piece of lined paper from a old exercise book) to be produced when Bobby Moore came majestically striding out of defence - it was England v Germany. 

Suddenly the moment arrived, and I'm sure I could here the paper being unfolded. BO- BBY MOORE! (slow and deliberate) COOOOOL. (Fast and slightly panicky) too cool. Hoeness, one nil." (sound of paper being torn).

[Yorkykopite]

Going well off topic now but must mention the time he obviously had a huge tribute speech ready (probably written down on a piece of lined paper from a old exercise book) to be produced when Bobby Moore came majestically striding out of defence - it was England v Germany. 

Suddenly the moment arrived, and I'm sure I could here the paper being unfolded. BO- BBY MOORE! (slow and deliberate) COOOOOL. (Fast and slightly panicky) too cool. Hoeness, one nil." (sound of paper being torn).

Fantastic. Was that the 1-3 match at Wembley when Netzer ran the show?

I also remember him confidently barking out the One-Nil line in a 1978 World Cup match only to see the ball slowly roll against the post and bounce out. Then..."Not One-Nil! Nil-Nil!"

[Timbo's Goals]

Cruyff mastered the Cruyff turn better than anybody

Not so sure about that. Our old primary school teacher Miss Formby once did the Matthews feint and the Cruyff funny turn at the same time.

 She put it down to vertigo. Took four of us to get her up off the floor.

[Timbo's Goals]

I offer you ----->  some joy in an imperfect vessel - 55 Goals by Dmitri Payet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk75DTn6Mgs

Bloodyhell. If I’d realised he was that good I’d have been a damn sight more jittery when we faced West Ham. Also I think I counted at least half a dozen copycat Dalglish Bruges chips. Cheers for that J.

 

[the 92A]

Beautifully put P lad. It’s captivating. I did also love De Factos video of Ronaldo - a stunning reminder of just what a fantastic player he was - but for me that balletic poise and grace of Best take his incisions and goals to a more sublime level in a similar way to Messi at his balletic best albeit poor Lionel has to make do without the added aesthetic of that mesmeric flapping shirt which was such a staple element of the Best magic. 

If sport is to inspire and excite then surely only hearts of stone fail to be lifted by those 18 minute compilations of skinny Bestie and tubby Ronaldo. 

Overall I guess I do find myself most in agreement with Yorky’s, Albie’s and Armand’s terrific posts in respect of the relative futility of differing era comparison. Players can only excel in the era they play in. That said, where would we be without the fun in making those comparisons. It makes for such great reading.

So thanks to all for making it such an enjoyable thread so far. Hopefully more to come - with accompanying videos perhaps.
 

Sums it up for me. It's difficult to compare but fun to do so if you remember the players that have brought you joy over the years. If I'm being honest I can't judge, I loved Keegan and Dalglish, and can't separate them, they brought different things, I contend Souness is one of the best footballing midfielders I have ever seen but it's his thuggish tackles he's remembered for, That 2014 season I watched Suarez I rated him as good as Dalglish but I can't ignore his antics. I don't know whether the Chelsea semi final was better than St Ettiene, but they both stood out and I'll talk all day about the differences.


Yorkie has just mentioned Gunter Netzer, no chance he is near the GOAT conversation but I loved watching him play and it brought a smile to my face, I want to remember him again. I rwant to remember that Bayern Munich 3-0 sitting on my Dads knee in the main stand, as we bought a ticket for the stands late on, because the gates had shut in the Anny road and paddock and my Dad knew how much I wanted to see Beckenbauer and co. BTW it was the last time we got away with the 'can you let he lad come through the turnstile Jim, he'll sit on my knee and will be quiet' manoeuvre, where I made myself smaller if we could only get one ticket and usually got us in if we were struggling. The next manoeuvre would be me going in to the boys pen and my dad going the bookies and we'd meet after the match outside the Albert. I echo Timbo though video clips would make a good read better


apologies for the edits- my writing is terrible and rarely reads coherently until I've re-read it I just miss out complete words but I know what I mean

[Timbo's Goals]

A marvellous pass. A sort of stab with the outside of the boot. Slightly easier to do if you are stationary, but Carlos Alberto was moving with a degree of speed when he did it. (Dare I say it's the kind of pass I'd expect today from Trent?).

The other thing about the whole clip is David Coleman's commentary. He conveyed excitement like no other.

Yorky spot on re the one and only DC.

Check out this thread below from a few weeks ago where I linked the BBC David Coleman celebration video

Made up I spotted this thread. Good on yer Andy lad for starting it. It's given me an amazing hour on You Tube watching the superb four part David Coleman tribute which for those of a certain vintage and hopefully for anyone else who might not understand all the fuss about the fella is a fantastic trip down sports memory lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K34zTxEPpXg

[Timbo's Goals]

Sums it up for me. It's difficult to compare but fun to do so if you remember the players that have brought you joy over the years. If I'm being honest I can't judge, I loved Keegan and Dalglish, and can't separate them, they brought different things, I contend Souness is one of the best footballing midfielders I have ever seen but it's his thuggish tackles he's remembered for, That 2014 season I watched Suarez I rated him as good as Dalglish but I can't ignore his antics. I don't know whether the Chelsea semi final was better than St Ettiene, but they both stood out and I'll talk all day about the differences.


Yorkie has just mentioned Gunter Netzer, no chance he is near the GOAT conversation but I loved watching him play and it brought a smile to my face, I want to remember him again. I rwant to remember that Bayern Munich 3-0 sitting on my Dads knee in the main stand, as we bought a ticket for the stands late on, because the gates had shut in the Anny road and paddock and my Dad knew how much I wanted to see Beckenbauer and co. BTW it was the last time we got away with the 'can you let he lad come through the turnstile Jim, he'll sit on my knee and will be quiet' manoeuvre, where I made myself smaller if we could only get one ticket and usually got us in if we were struggling. The next stop wold me going in the  boys pen and my dad going the bookies and we'd meet after the match outside the Albert. I echo Timbo though video clips would make a good read better

Great memories Albie. As for Gunther can you remember the first half of  that second leg against Monchengladbach. His laser like passing tore us to shreds. How the hell we only conceded two goals is still being investigated by Interpol.   

[Dr. Beaker]

I can remember that Beckenbauer looked like a gibbering idiot with Keegan at his heels all game long - he didn't do much strutting about in that game.

[Yorkykopite]

One of the joys of watching footy in the 60s, 70s and 80s was that you often heard of great overseas footballers by reputation before you got to see them. They'd be featured in lads' football annuals or Shoot! and Goal! Or there'd be rave reviews where you put your Panini stickers. The sense of building excitement until you actually got to see....Rivera or Cubillas or Housman (the Argentine, not the Chelsea fella)...was immense.

I remember being gutted in '82 when Reinaldo of Brazil was ruled out of the World Cup. He was meant to be on a par with Zico. I'd never seen him (and still haven't) so can't say if that was true or not. His poor, lumbering replacement of course was the centre-forward Serginho. More a Kerry Dixon than a Zico. 

[Timbo's Goals]

I can remember that Beckenbauer looked like a gibbering idiot with Keegan at his heels all game long - he didn't do much strutting about in that game.

D’you remember that other 0-0 Bayern game where Gerd Muller basically played as centre back and we just couldn’t score. Can’t remember the year.

[Dr. Beaker]

D’you remember that other 0-0 Bayern game where Gerd Muller basically played as centre back and we just couldn’t score. Can’t remember the year.

you've got me there timbo.

[Dr. Beaker]

The only other thing I remember about the game was the ball landing on the roof of the net at the Kop end, and Sepp Meier just jumped up a bit and kicked it off! He was like a giant spider monkey that bloke.

[PoetryInMotion]

Not so sure about that. Our old primary school teacher Miss Formby once did the Matthews feint and the Cruyff funny turn at the same time.

 She put it down to vertigo. Took four of us to get her up off the floor.

 

[the 92A]

Great memories Albie. As for Gunther can you remember the first half of  that second leg against Monchengladbach. His laser like passing tore us to shreds. How the hell we only conceded two goals is still being investigated by Interpol.   

To be honest I can't remember too much about the second leg, I think I must have listened on the radio- The first leg though remember it well, I was excited to see Netzer in the tradition Yorkie mentioned but hoped he wouldn't play too well  My story of the first leg

[rossipersempre]

And your arl fella was spot on Rossi lad.

I'm ignoring the rest of your post BTW cos it doesn't quite fit in with my agenda 

Yeah fair enough, figured it was swimming against the tide of your OP but couldn’t bite my lip to be honest, not least because (without going into detail here) I once had the misfortune to meet him towards the end of his life.

Best was one of only two Man United players my dad spoke almost in reverential tones about (the other being Denis Law, a genuinely nice fella) so I decided not to tell my old man the details, lest it cloud his impression of the preternaturally talented player he once was…before he pissed it all away of course.

[rossipersempre]

I remember being gutted in '82 when Reinaldo of Brazil was ruled out of the World Cup. He was meant to be on a par with Zico.

Somewhere in an alternate universe, eh…

As for Zico, now there’s a player who deserves a thread. I think like Best and all the others being discussed here, certain players just had an aura about them.

[darragh85]

i wasnt around in the 60s so never saw Best play but it always baffles me how a player who only spent a couple of season at the top could be lauded so much. was he really that good or is it just because of who he played for?  how is he any better than Ronaldinho for example. he cant be more talented than him , didnt play as long . didnt win as much so then what?

[Yorkykopite]

i wasnt around in the 60s so never saw Best play but it always baffles me how a player who only spent a couple of season at the top could be lauded so much. was he really that good or is it just because of who he played for?  how is he any better than Ronaldinho for example. he cant be more talented than him , didnt play as long . didnt win as much so then what?

To begin get an answer you ought, at least, to ask the right question. Best had a truncated career as almost everyone knows. But it was more than "a couple of seasons at the top". More like 8 or 9 at the top. That was too short a career for a man of such prodigious gifts, but it was a helluva lot more than two.

[Timbo's Goals]

i wasnt around in the 60s so never saw Best play but it always baffles me how a player who only spent a couple of season at the top could be lauded so much. was he really that good or is it just because of who he played for?  how is he any better than Ronaldinho for example. he cant be more talented than him , didnt play as long . didnt win as much so then what?

What Yorkie just said so aptly above. But I’m kind of glad you posted what you did Darragh cos it does highlight how false narratives can hide the reality and sometimes become a perceived reality for some. We as Liverpudlians know the nightmare and damage of such false narratives better than anyone.

[Timbo's Goals]

Well anyway here it is. Forget the save, forget the header, just watch the impossible pass right at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_q2aB5G6o

Funny how that pass is overlooked because of the three things that happen next and yet in its own way it could be argued that it’s the most accomplished technical skill of all four. I for one have seen it a hundred times but never ever stopped to really appreciate its majesty. Crazy. So great shout Doc. Also agree with Yorky’s later comment that a pass like that is well within Trent’s compass.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

Yeah fair enough, figured it was swimming against the tide of your OP but couldn’t bite my lip to be honest, not least because (without going into detail here) I once had the misfortune to meet him towards the end of his life.

Best was one of only two Man United players my dad spoke almost in reverential tones about (the other being Denis Law, a genuinely nice fella) so I decided not to tell my old man the details, lest it cloud his impression of the preternaturally talented player he once was…before he pissed it all away of course.

Fair play Rossi lad. I’d say you did the right thing by your dad. I know such things weigh heavy on you having read your comments on such stuff in other threads before.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

Or to expand on the theme. Keegan! One nil! That makes it Two-One to Liverpool.

'Newcastle were undressed' is my favorite Coleman quote...

[Ale-lujah! Ale-lujah!]

Not so sure about that. Our old primary school teacher Miss Formby once did the Matthews feint and the Cruyff funny turn at the same time.

 She put it down to vertigo. Took four of us to get her up off the floor.

 

[Ale-lujah! Ale-lujah!]

'Newcastle were undressed' is my favorite Coleman quote...

That was the Keegan goal made by Smithy wasn’t it? Coleman’s quote was just perfect.

[Yorkykopite]

'Newcastle were undressed' is my favorite Coleman quote...

I think that was the 74 Cup Final, right Tommy?

In which case the man was on top form that day. "Goals pay the rent and Keegan gets his share". "'Good ball' he said and 'Good ball' it was." The man of the pithy phrase.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

No doubt Best was a superb practitioner on the ball and had a knack for the unconventional. I do get frustrated when he's discussed in conversations about the 'GOAT', however. My standard reply is 'He wasn't even the best player on his own team'. In my opinion, that accolade belongs to Bobby Charlton, who at the time (especially as a result of England's World Cup winning year 1966 and Manchester United's European Cup winning year 1968) was viewed as the best player Great Britain has ever produced. It seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time. I think Best's 'Rock n Roll' image has elevated his position.

Edit: https://youtu.be/5HpvWGfp3tk

(Nifty tune, too!)

Another edit: I'm paraphrasing, but I remember hearing Alan Ball, Everton's best-ever player, reminiscing about asking Alf Ramsey for tactical instructions on his England debut; Alf replied 'Get the ball, give it to Charlton'.