Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[Raoul Duke]

Yeah, because rating Lucas and having a different opinion on him cannot be possible, it has to be Rafa influenced. What an arrogant assumption this is...

No. I rate Lucas.

[Jagged Princess]

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

The lad you quoted even stated Lucas had improved but then everything always comes back to Rafa by those with agendas. 

[leivapool]

This Lucas debate has become a zero-sum game for me.

Mods, could we PLEASE have a poll, something like this?

Do you rate Lucas?

Yes I've always rated him highly since he arrived
Yes  I do now but not when he arrived
I think he's average
No, I don't rate him

Thanks

[Cadno]

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

Please fuck off with that lazy lazy generalization.   Nothing is more stupid than people who dismiss others opinion just because they supported the best manager we have had in 20 years.   

The fact that every manager that he has had has shown faith in him says more for the lad than anything.  Hell even Roy quickly realised he was a good player.  I'll be interested once Gerrard comes back as to whether Kenny keeps Lucas in the 1st team, I suspect that he will but time will tell.

Edit
Also now that Spearing is fully fit from his injury if what some of the hater say on here its true then we should expect to see him replacing Lucas for the Derby and beyond.  Personally if that happens I will seriously start worrying about relegation but trust the management to make the right decisioni

[Raoul Duke]

Please fuck off with that lazy lazy generalization.   Nothing is more stupid than people who dismiss others opinion just because they supported the best manager we have had in 20 years.   

Please. Embracing the man like a fucking religion?

Going beyond supporting the interests of the club. Many on here would of rather of seen Internazionale do well than us this season, and that makes you a Benitez FC fan.

[steveeastend]

This is really special stuff. Are you basing these Carra claims on the same kind of facts you're using for Lucas?

Look mate, there are countless posts on player power having a very negative impact on our club for a very long time. The players couldn´t be charged for that because IN FACT the manager is responsible for a success or not. IN FACT, this is a very common problem, discussed a thousand times before that players cannot be charged BUT on the other do have a negative influence off and on the pitch. For that, sacking a manager sometimes look unfair and probably is. Because HE has to take the responsibility for players not performing to their abilities. No?


And Lucas is a brasilian international and for that an above average player.

[Smashedin]

Please fuck off with that lazy lazy generalization.   Nothing is more stupid than people who dismiss others opinion just because they supported the best manager we have had in 20 years.   

The fact that every manager that he has had has shown faith in him says more for the lad than anything.  Hell even Roy quickly realised he was a good player.  I'll be interested once Gerrard comes back as to whether Kenny keeps Lucas in the 1st team, I suspect that he will but time will tell.

I don't think Roy was exactly blessed with choice. He didn't make that many starts under Benitez while the Alonso/Masch due was around either. I think Kenny will keep him for now.

[steveeastend]

No. I rate Lucas.

 So why should somebody who rates Lucas should come to this conclusion only because Rafa rates him. Come on, this is just an ridiculous argument...

[Sangria]

No one for now, I'm not in the habit of scouting players for Kenny's style/team. But to get back into the top 4, you need players of a higher standard than Lucas, so someone is going to have to come in eventually for his spot.

Unlike you, I've offered solutions aplenty. Using Dalglish's style team as a comparison, even before he returned as manager. I've based them on standards which are among the highest. But then, unlike you, I talked about solutions of the highest standard, whereas you talk about players of the highest standard. What was that I said about the collective versus the individual?

[Sangria]

Please fuck off with that lazy lazy generalization.   Nothing is more stupid than people who dismiss others opinion just because they supported the best manager we have had in 20 years.   

The fact that every manager that he has had has shown faith in him says more for the lad than anything.  Hell even Roy quickly realised he was a good player.  I'll be interested once Gerrard comes back as to whether Kenny keeps Lucas in the 1st team, I suspect that he will but time will tell.

Edit
Also now that Spearing is fully fit from his injury if what some of the hater say on here its true then we should expect to see him replacing Lucas for the Derby and beyond.  Personally if that happens I will seriously start worrying about relegation but trust the management to make the right decisioni

Don't get offended by him. Just laugh at him instead.

We're going to win the league and Hodgson will become a club legend.

The ownership is a massively, massively overstated factor on here for the failure that was last season. Players are not truly affected by such occurrences. The debt has nothing to do with their inability to string more than two passes together, or move into space on the pitch. Benitez's stubborn reluctance to make a single change to a losing formula, inability to get the best out of (most of) his players and generally poor ability in the transfer market had a lot to do with it. That, coupled with injuries to key players at unfortunate points, as well as the prospect of a world cup and the fears over missing out on places or being injured and missing the tournament. Yes, the players were culpable for poor performances. But ultimately it is up to the manager to make a team gel, and Benitez did not do that last season for most of the games (exceptions being the games where Aquilani was allowed to play). Maybe his man management style is difficult to work with for a long period of time. By all accounts it does not generate much enthusiasm for the game.

If we retain our current best players, make a few signings in defence, and the medical team are able to cut the amount of injuries the players receive in two, I think top 4 is an absolute certainty. After we are back in the Champions league and are a financially attractive proposition again, the club will be sold. And that is that.

[Raoul Duke]

So why should somebody who rates Lucas should come to this conclusion only because Rafa rates him. Come on, this is just an ridiculous argument...

No, I haven't been drinking. I swam twenty five laps this morning, actually. Feelin' good.

When you rate him beyond Gerrard or Alonso (two players who supposedly betrayed Benitez), you know you're only supporting him for one reason..

[bleedsred1978]

I don't think Roy was exactly blessed with choice. He didn't make that many starts under Benitez while the Alonso/Masch due was around either. I think Kenny will keep him for now.

Shock Horror. Rafa picked a midfield duo worth 50-60 million ahead of a 21 year old prospect.

Has anyone said Lucas was a better player than either?

[Cadno]

Please. Embracing the man like a fucking religion?

Going beyond supporting the interests of the club. Many on here would of rather of seen Internazionale do well than us this season, and that makes you a Benitez FC fan.

Like I said please fuck off with your generalization. I am Liverpool supporter and I support Liverpool first and last.  I did hope that Rafa did well for Inter becuse I wished him well for all he did for us but what you are claiming is absolute fucking bollocks just so you can dismiss others opinion.

[bleedsred1978]

No, I haven't been drinking. I swam twenty five laps this morning, actually. Feelin' good.

When you rate him beyond Gerrard or Alonso (two players who supposedly betrayed Benitez), you know you're only supporting him for one reason..

Laps? What kind of pool is that then?

[Smashedin]

Unlike you, I've offered solutions aplenty. Using Dalglish's style team as a comparison, even before he returned as manager. I've based them on standards which are among the highest. But then, unlike you, I talked about solutions of the highest standard, whereas you talk about players of the highest standard. What was that I said about the collective versus the individual?

You've said absolutely nothing about this collective vs the individual rubbish yet; you just keep mentioning it in passing.

Your solution is to keep Lucas; some great thinking out of the box going on there.

My point is, i do not understand what all the fuss about Lucas is. He does not add that much to the game, even during the high scoring 08/09 Season, where pretty much everyone was praised, he didn't stand out. All this overly defensive stuff about Lucas is frankly baffling; I'm glad he has improved, but he is hardly the player to take the club to its former glory.

[Raoul Duke]

Laps? What kind of pool is that then?

I meant lengths, actually.

[CHOPPER]

Didn't Lucas support someone else before he supported us? If he even supports us at all, the fucking treacherous c*nt.

[bleedsred1978]

I meant lengths, actually.

Only pulling your leg mate.

[leivapool]

I've just found this post on a thread on Liverpool fc.tv website.  Hope no-one minds me cross posting, it was written by Bilsland a moderator and I think it articulates what I think well.

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=225977&page=3

I put this in a similar thread in the other forum and it will do for in here too as my two pennath....

Whoever said that when Lucas plays with better players around him, ie in the Brazillian team, had it right.
Why he gets blamed for the entire team's performances when he is having to play with wingers who don't know how to find space and run with the ball or a striker who is hemmed in by 3 defenders or a defence that is incapable of anticipation or speed is way beyond me.
Even Gerrard, arguable the best player this Club has ever had, is struggling to put passes together for our striker or defence splitting passes because of either a lack of movement in the team or because his form is being affected by the same malaise as the rest of the team.

In a game recently Lucas had the ball in midfield and was looking to make the forward pass and there was just no-one available, no-one willing to get into space or make the type of run to anticipate his pass. So what is the man to do, make the safest pass he can to retain possession and for that he gets lambasted . Gerrard makes passes that go astray in almost every game. Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt, Johnson, etc etc all do too.
When mascher played How many goals did he score? was he castigated for the lack? yes he broke up play but how often did he get red carded or we lose his services because he had racked up too many yellow cards.
In Lucas we have a player who is willing(and able ) to get a decent tackle in without getting sent off, Johnson can't tackle, Konchesky hit and miss, Agger not always effective, Babel likes his own personal space!

So what is this " he's not good enough for LFC"...He plays for us and he puts in a shift every time he goes out onto the pitch. There are far too many other players who dont. What is going on in here is scape-goating, and it has from day 1 when he came into the side because of injuries and when he stayed because when Alonso and Mascher WANTED to leave we did not have the funds to replace them and he hasn't let us down.
In the big games he has delivered MOTM performances, he doesn't hide and if phillip Neville hadn't made the save of his live in that derby when Lucas was brought on after the dismissal of our Captain following another rash tackle Lucas would have been a hero and the fans perception of him would have been completely different.

People will always have their favourite players, those who can do no wrong. but we are in dire straits at the moment and the last thing we need are the fans being so vitriolic in their condemnation of a player who deserves so much more support than he has ever got from a section of fans who really should know better. For someone who was 4th choice CM when he came here he's doing more than a good job and when I look at his team-mates I wish I could say the same for them.

ps...we don't need a different CM, we need proper wingers

[Raoul Duke]

Only pulling your leg mate.

Fairy nuff.

[Sangria]

You've said absolutely nothing about this collective vs the individual rubbish yet; you just keep mentioning it in passing.

Your solution is to keep Lucas; some great thinking out of the box going on there.

My point is, i do not understand what all the fuss about Lucas is. He does not add that much to the game, even during the high scoring 08/09 Season, where pretty much everyone was praised, he didn't stand out. All this overly defensive stuff about Lucas is frankly baffling; I'm glad he has improved, but he is hardly the player to take the club to its former glory.

Have a look at your posts. What have you said about the team? Have you said anything about the team? Do you know how the team works?

And by the way, what would your response be if I told you that I know for certain that Dalglish would pick someone like Lucas ahead of someone like Molby? Would you say I'm mad? Or would you say there's a wider point to this?

[steveeastend]

No, I haven't been drinking. I swam twenty five laps this morning, actually. Feelin' good.

When you rate him beyond Gerrard or Alonso (two players who supposedly betrayed Benitez), you know you're only supporting him for one reason..

Where did I ever rate him beyond Gerrard or Alonso? Are you on a wind up? Then I would like to ask you kindly to fuck off.

[Smashedin]

Have a look at your posts. What have you said about the team? Have you said anything about the team? Do you know how the team works?

And by the way, what would your response be if I told you that I know for certain that Dalglish would pick someone like Lucas ahead of someone like Molby? Would you say I'm mad? Or would you say there's a wider point to this?

I've asked multiple times, what Lucas adds to the team, and the question is always ignored.

As for your second point, again you've lost me. I wouldn't be able to comment on Molby because i never saw for myself, any of the games he played in.

[Cormack Snr]

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

[Raoul Duke]

Where did I ever rate him beyond Gerrard or Alonso? Are you on a wind up? Then I would like to ask you kindly to fuck off.

Me?

Never.

[Laergoth]

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

Sums it up pretty well, IMO.

[Sangria]

I've asked multiple times, what Lucas adds to the team, and the question is always ignored.

As for your second point, again you've lost me. I wouldn't be able to comment on Molby because i never saw for myself, any of the games he played in.

On the first point, you don't start with the individual, you start with the team. When you start by looking at things the wrong way, and show no sign that you can see things any other way, there's no point in explaining. Go back to the leivapool post you took offence to, and re-read it until you understand the wider point. Start by reading what was actually written, rather than what you thought was written.

On the second point, Dalglish's team gave me a footballing lesson that took me years to learn. But at least I've tried to educate myself so I can learn that lesson. But here's one part of it, relevant to the discussion of Lucas. What does the midfield do? Try and answer that on a general level, and explore the implications of the answer. When you're ready, try and apply that to the Liverpool squad, both present and past.

[smicer07]

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

Well that's pretty patronising.

[Breitner]

Didn't Lucas support someone else before he supported us? If he even supports us at all, the fucking treacherous c*nt.

He only stopped supporting Gremio after one of his mates took the piss out of his scouse accent.

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

Well summed up.

[Smashedin]

On the first point, you don't start with the individual, you start with the team. When you start by looking at things the wrong way, and show no sign that you can see things any other way, there's no point in explaining. Go back to the leivapool post you took offence to, and re-read it until you understand the wider point. Start by reading what was actually written, rather than what you thought was written.

On the second point, Dalglish's team gave me a footballing lesson that took me years to learn. But at least I've tried to educate myself so I can learn that lesson. But here's one part of it, relevant to the discussion of Lucas. What does the midfield do? Try and answer that on a general level, and explore the implications of the answer. When you're ready, try and apply that to the Liverpool squad, both present and past.

I really don't need to go look into these things to see that Lucas is not top 4 material. The poster above got it in one.

And give it a rest with insulting my intelligence, I haven't gotten personal with you, so theres no need to do so with me. Especially when you know nothing about me.
 

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

[bleedsred1978]

Lucas is a nice lad who tries his best but is only average in the grand scale of things. We have fell so far from our lofty perch that people have forgot or never seen real quality.

He's better than average mate. Much better.

He's managed to get into the Brazil national team, not a bad feat with a population of 185 million people.

[leivapool]

Didn't Lucas support someone else before he supported us? If he even supports us at all, the fucking treacherous c*nt.

He supports Gremio of Brazil, his first club.  How does that make him a fucking trecherous C*nt?  They play in Brazil.  It's not like he's supporting Man U for Gods sake.  Or like Carra who admits to supporting Everton as a kid. 

Harsh words and in my opinion very unnecessary.

[Sangria]

I really don't need to go look into these things to see that Lucas is not top 4 material. The poster above got it in one.

And give it a rest with insulting my intelligence, I haven't gotten personal with you, so theres no need to do so with me. Especially when you know nothing about me.
 

Amply illustrating my point about the language of discussion and how it limits discussion.

[Sangria]

He supports Gremio of Brazil, his first club.  How does that make him a fucking trecherous C*nt?  They play in Brazil.  It's not like he's supporting Man U for Gods sake.  Or like Carra who admits to supporting Everton as a kid. 

Harsh words and in my opinion very unnecessary.

Don't take CHOPPER seriously. He's joking more often than not. He appreciates the effort Lucas puts in, from what I can tell.

[bleedsred1978]

I really don't need to go look into these things to see that Lucas is not top 4 material. The poster above got it in one.

And give it a rest with insulting my intelligence, I haven't gotten personal with you, so theres no need to do so with me. Especially when you know nothing about me.
 

Not top four material?

I'd have Lucas over Carrick/Fletcher/Anderson/Huddelston/Jenas/Diaby/Eboue, could name more if needed.

[Greebo62]

I've just found this post on a thread on Liverpool fc.tv website.  Hope no-one minds me cross posting, it was written by Bilsland a moderator and I think it articulates what I think well.

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=225977&page=3

I put this in a similar thread in the other forum and it will do for in here too as my two pennath....

Whoever said that when Lucas plays with better players around him, ie in the Brazillian team, had it right.
Why he gets blamed for the entire team's performances when he is having to play with wingers who don't know how to find space and run with the ball or a striker who is hemmed in by 3 defenders or a defence that is incapable of anticipation or speed is way beyond me.
Even Gerrard, arguable the best player this Club has ever had, is struggling to put passes together for our striker or defence splitting passes because of either a lack of movement in the team or because his form is being affected by the same malaise as the rest of the team.

In a game recently Lucas had the ball in midfield and was looking to make the forward pass and there was just no-one available, no-one willing to get into space or make the type of run to anticipate his pass. So what is the man to do, make the safest pass he can to retain possession and for that he gets lambasted . Gerrard makes passes that go astray in almost every game. Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt, Johnson, etc etc all do too.
When mascher played How many goals did he score? was he castigated for the lack? yes he broke up play but how often did he get red carded or we lose his services because he had racked up too many yellow cards.
In Lucas we have a player who is willing(and able ) to get a decent tackle in without getting sent off, Johnson can't tackle, Konchesky hit and miss, Agger not always effective, Babel likes his own personal space!

So what is this " he's not good enough for LFC"...He plays for us and he puts in a shift every time he goes out onto the pitch. There are far too many other players who dont. What is going on in here is scape-goating, and it has from day 1 when he came into the side because of injuries and when he stayed because when Alonso and Mascher WANTED to leave we did not have the funds to replace them and he hasn't let us down.
In the big games he has delivered MOTM performances, he doesn't hide and if phillip Neville hadn't made the save of his live in that derby when Lucas was brought on after the dismissal of our Captain following another rash tackle Lucas would have been a hero and the fans perception of him would have been completely different.

People will always have their favourite players, those who can do no wrong. but we are in dire straits at the moment and the last thing we need are the fans being so vitriolic in their condemnation of a player who deserves so much more support than he has ever got from a section of fans who really should know better. For someone who was 4th choice CM when he came here he's doing more than a good job and when I look at his team-mates I wish I could say the same for them.

ps...we don't need a different CM, we need proper wingers

Top post.  Agree with nearly everything there...  Only he came on for Gerrard in that Derby, and Dirk slooted the penalty from neville's hand ball.

Nevertheless.  Like the boy - he never hides on the park, unlike some, and despite getting booed on at the age of 21 - yes, that's 21 yrs old, booed by the so called best supporters in the world - he's still kept his head up and done the job he's required to do.  That job, for those too dumb to realise it, is to keep the ball moving, maintain and win possession, and make himself available for the ball to support the "creative" players.  People seem to fail to notice that every time a player forwaard of the 18 yd box has the ball, he has Lucas as an option.  The boy gets into a space to receive the ball nearly ALL game long.  Do people atually realise just how difficult that is?

Sick of eejits who can't see things beyond the end of their nose.  Maybe LFC should get free eye tests done for all fans so that people can actually see what's going on out on the pitch.

[leivapool]

Don't take CHOPPER seriously. He's joking more often than not. He appreciates the effort Lucas puts in, from what I can tell.

The problem is the WUM's and Lucas haters will happily add that fuel to their fire!!

Thanks tho', i'll take his posts a bit less seriously next time.

To be honest I'm fed up trying to defend the things Lucas brings to the team. 

[Smashedin]

Amply illustrating my point about the language of discussion and how it limits discussion.

How clever of you. Allow me to demonstrate some of the intricate aspects of putting together an argument.

The first key to participating in a debate or argument, is to ask questions that force the opposing party to state unfavourable comments as to their own point.

From this, 2 conclusions can be drawn. Either the party answers them, and the flaws in their arguments are exposed. The alternative is for the party to ignore, or deflect the question; The third outcome, is that the party attacks technical points, or becomes personal.

Now you tell me, which of the three applies to you?

[Laergoth]

I think it's genuinely quite funny (and worrying) that some people here do believe that Lucas would get into Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City etc. Of course, there's no way I can prove or disprove it, but I just find it funny that some people appear to genuinely believe that.

[Djimothy]

I think it's genuinely quite funny (and worrying) that some people here do believe that Lucas would get into Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City etc. Of course, there's no way I can prove or disprove it, but I just find it funny that some people appear to genuinely believe that.

His fellow Brazilians Anderson and Denilson are both getting alot of games for Man Utd and Arsenal and guess who is miles ahead of them in the Brazilian national team pecking order? Yes it's Lucas,you fucking moron.