Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire  (Read 42245 times)

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #440 on: August 13, 2013, 07:43:11 pm »
Finished the series so far after reading ADWD book 2 on holiday over the past week.

Here are some thoughts and predictions, sorry if it's long winded!


 
Spoiler
I have absolutely loved the series. I watched all 3 TV Series before starting the books as I couldn't wait a year to find out what was going to happen. Book one was pretty similar and book 2 for the most part. Book three which is in two parts is where it really gets very interesting I think, though I loved the first two books despite knowing what was going to happen, you get far more of a feel for the characters and Westeros by reading the books.

Book Three Part Two (Blood and Gold) was absolutely breath-taking. The Red Wedding is quite early on in that book and I'd only seen it in tv the week before but it was still gripping. Then comes Joffrey's death which I really didn't see coming. As glad as I was that that 'little shit' (as GRRM calls him) died, I couldn't help but feel let down that he hadn't come to a more gruesome death or died at the hands of a Stark though the way he died was necessary to create the notion that Tyrion could of done it, especially in Cersei's mind.

Then when I didn't think that book could deliver any more shocks, Tryion only goes and kills his father! Now that I did love. I think that scene is written incredibly well.

Book 4 is really a different animal. It's sort of a calming after the storm in some ways, though a lot does happen. I love the introduction of The Crow's Eye; he seems a really intriguing character, as is his brother Victarian. I also liked getting to know the Martells better and reading about Dorne. A lot of the blanks are being filled in about the past with Rhaegar and Robert. The stuff with Lord Beric is fascinating as well; I like that Martin has in a way preserved Catelyn Stark after death but she's not quite the same. To have characters come back to life would have been a bit of a cop out IMO but the way Martin does it with Beric and Catelyn is so good and doesn't ruin any of the story.

What I really love about this series is the fact that you start off thinking one thing about a character and by the end of it all you have a completely different opinion. I started off loathing the Lannisters and loving the Starks but now that isn't the case. All 3 siblings (Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime) have redeeming features. Tyrion was always the least cruel and has become my favourite character of the entire series as I'm sure he is for many. Jaime started off being an arrogant, despicable oath breaker but since being led home by Brienne he's really a changed man - he can still be cruel and stern but he looks out for the weak now as he knows he himself has been made far weaker with the loss of his hand. Cersei I suppose is the one people will always hate but she has shown she can be weak and vulnerable and we were told the key to her bitterness I think which is the fact she thought she was betrothed to Rhaegar but the Mad King refused. I don't think she's ever forgiven the world for that and has always tried to prove her power without the need of the Targaryens.

I tend to agree however that the pace definitely slows right down after book 3. Book 4 is very historical and laying the brick work. We're introduced to too many new characters, some of whom seem to be completely irrelevant like Quentyn Martell who wasn't needed IMO. He didn't add anything to the story other than another house trying to either kill or steal dragons.

I thought ADWD was much better than book 4, though I'm a little fed up of Mereen and the Dany story now. She is smarter than Stannis because he set out to Kings Landing too soon and paid the price at Blackwater, at least Dany has allowed time for her dragons to grow and her army but she can't even tame them now. I think in the next book she will begin her advance to Westeros, most likely with Tyrion in some way.

I really didn't like Tyrion in the new setting across the narrow sea though. He belongs at King's Landing, pissing Cersei off and playing everyone against each other. The stuff with Penny is cute but a little nauseating at times and not really needed. We already know Tyrion has a soft side sue to his kindness to Sansa.

The Jon Snow stuff has been good and I love all the Melisandre prediction stuff; I didn't see Jon being attacked coming but like others I fail to believe he's actually dead.

I think book 5 needed more Bran; I really hope to see him avenge the Starks with Rickon but he hasn't got that badass nature that Robb had. Arya does but her whole story is a little boring now to be honest, unless Martin plans on having her become this major assassin that comes back to Westeros and tears shit up.

On Bran, when he sees someone in Winterfell getting their head chopped off and tastes blood when he is the tree, did people are that to mean he is seeing his future self getting killed or what? Because the first chapter that Martin has allowed us to see from book 6 suggests Theon is about to face such a death, so was it Theon he was seeing?

The Vary's thing was quite interesting, didn't see that coming either. I wonder where he's been hiding up to now.

Personally I think Littlefinger is going to have a big part to play in what happens. He's so cunning, will use Sansa to claim the north somehow and marry her off to Aegon Targaryan when he wins the Iron Throne. Danaerys will marry Jon Snow and together will defeat the White Walkers with Bran and Arya playing big parts in that too using their powers. Tyrion will die I reckon by somehow saving Cersei and Jaime from something terrible, thereby showing he has always put the Lanniesters first.

Oh, and I reckon Benjen Stark is definitely still alive, he's mentioned so many times.

Really though anything could happen; the series has been largely unpredictable.
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Offline Sindri

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #441 on: August 13, 2013, 09:48:23 pm »
Finished the series so far after reading ADWD book 2 on holiday over the past week.

Here are some thoughts and predictions, sorry if it's long winded!


 
Spoiler
I have absolutely loved the series. I watched all 3 TV Series before starting the books as I couldn't wait a year to find out what was going to happen. Book one was pretty similar and book 2 for the most part. Book three which is in two parts is where it really gets very interesting I think, though I loved the first two books despite knowing what was going to happen, you get far more of a feel for the characters and Westeros by reading the books.

Book Three Part Two (Blood and Gold) was absolutely breath-taking. The Red Wedding is quite early on in that book and I'd only seen it in tv the week before but it was still gripping. Then comes Joffrey's death which I really didn't see coming. As glad as I was that that 'little shit' (as GRRM calls him) died, I couldn't help but feel let down that he hadn't come to a more gruesome death or died at the hands of a Stark though the way he died was necessary to create the notion that Tyrion could of done it, especially in Cersei's mind.

Then when I didn't think that book could deliver any more shocks, Tryion only goes and kills his father! Now that I did love. I think that scene is written incredibly well.

Book 4 is really a different animal. It's sort of a calming after the storm in some ways, though a lot does happen. I love the introduction of The Crow's Eye; he seems a really intriguing character, as is his brother Victarian. I also liked getting to know the Martells better and reading about Dorne. A lot of the blanks are being filled in about the past with Rhaegar and Robert. The stuff with Lord Beric is fascinating as well; I like that Martin has in a way preserved Catelyn Stark after death but she's not quite the same. To have characters come back to life would have been a bit of a cop out IMO but the way Martin does it with Beric and Catelyn is so good and doesn't ruin any of the story.

What I really love about this series is the fact that you start off thinking one thing about a character and by the end of it all you have a completely different opinion. I started off loathing the Lannisters and loving the Starks but now that isn't the case. All 3 siblings (Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime) have redeeming features. Tyrion was always the least cruel and has become my favourite character of the entire series as I'm sure he is for many. Jaime started off being an arrogant, despicable oath breaker but since being led home by Brienne he's really a changed man - he can still be cruel and stern but he looks out for the weak now as he knows he himself has been made far weaker with the loss of his hand. Cersei I suppose is the one people will always hate but she has shown she can be weak and vulnerable and we were told the key to her bitterness I think which is the fact she thought she was betrothed to Rhaegar but the Mad King refused. I don't think she's ever forgiven the world for that and has always tried to prove her power without the need of the Targaryens.

I tend to agree however that the pace definitely slows right down after book 3. Book 4 is very historical and laying the brick work. We're introduced to too many new characters, some of whom seem to be completely irrelevant like Quentyn Martell who wasn't needed IMO. He didn't add anything to the story other than another house trying to either kill or steal dragons.

I thought ADWD was much better than book 4, though I'm a little fed up of Mereen and the Dany story now. She is smarter than Stannis because he set out to Kings Landing too soon and paid the price at Blackwater, at least Dany has allowed time for her dragons to grow and her army but she can't even tame them now. I think in the next book she will begin her advance to Westeros, most likely with Tyrion in some way.

I really didn't like Tyrion in the new setting across the narrow sea though. He belongs at King's Landing, pissing Cersei off and playing everyone against each other. The stuff with Penny is cute but a little nauseating at times and not really needed. We already know Tyrion has a soft side sue to his kindness to Sansa.

The Jon Snow stuff has been good and I love all the Melisandre prediction stuff; I didn't see Jon being attacked coming but like others I fail to believe he's actually dead.

I think book 5 needed more Bran; I really hope to see him avenge the Starks with Rickon but he hasn't got that badass nature that Robb had. Arya does but her whole story is a little boring now to be honest, unless Martin plans on having her become this major assassin that comes back to Westeros and tears shit up.

On Bran, when he sees someone in Winterfell getting their head chopped off and tastes blood when he is the tree, did people are that to mean he is seeing his future self getting killed or what? Because the first chapter that Martin has allowed us to see from book 6 suggests Theon is about to face such a death, so was it Theon he was seeing?

The Vary's thing was quite interesting, didn't see that coming either. I wonder where he's been hiding up to now.

Personally I think Littlefinger is going to have a big part to play in what happens. He's so cunning, will use Sansa to claim the north somehow and marry her off to Aegon Targaryan when he wins the Iron Throne. Danaerys will marry Jon Snow and together will defeat the White Walkers with Bran and Arya playing big parts in that too using their powers. Tyrion will die I reckon by somehow saving Cersei and Jaime from something terrible, thereby showing he has always put the Lanniesters first.

Oh, and I reckon Benjen Stark is definitely still alive, he's mentioned so many times.


Really though anything could happen; the series has been largely unpredictable.
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Spoiler
I thought Benjen might be "coldhands". Black clock, always hid his face from Bran  ect. 
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Offline B0151?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #442 on: September 9, 2013, 01:31:24 pm »
Just finished them. Can't see the Iron Throne being important at all by the end

Offline JTK

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #443 on: September 9, 2013, 01:38:47 pm »
Spoiler
I thought Benjen might be "coldhands". Black clock, always hid his face from Bran  ect. 
[close]

From the Wiki,

Leaf, the child of the forest Bran meets at the cave of the Last Greenseer, says of Coldhands: "They killed him long ago." Will, Waymar Royce and Benjen Stark died/went missing only two years prior, a small amount of time for someone over 200 years old.



Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #444 on: September 9, 2013, 05:35:55 pm »
What do people reckon about

Spoiler
Jon's parentage? Obviously the main theory out there is that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would explain the secrecy around his birth, why he looks like a stark but with Targaryan blood meaning he unites ice with fire. Personally I think this is the case, however I don't think Tyrion is a secret Targaryen and I'm doubtful to whether Aegon is real or not.
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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #445 on: September 9, 2013, 06:00:01 pm »
Spoiler
I'm pretty certain that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid, pretty much everything points to it to be honest. The whole Tyrion thing I never understood, seems like bullshit to me.

Aegon I'm unsure about, there's the entire Varys/Blackfyre thing, and idk. I like Aegon loads more than Dany, so I hope he's a Targ and the dragons go over to him and kill Dany.

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Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline B0151?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #446 on: September 9, 2013, 07:53:43 pm »
What do people reckon about

Spoiler
Jon's parentage? Obviously the main theory out there is that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would explain the secrecy around his birth, why he looks like a stark but with Targaryan blood meaning he unites ice with fire. Personally I think this is the case, however I don't think Tyrion is a secret Targaryen and I'm doubtful to whether Aegon is real or not.
[close]

Spoiler
Everything points to that like. He'd still be a bastard though wouldn't he? Also what do people reckon is going to happen to him? He survives? Or dies and comes back somehow, releasing him from the Night's Watch? Not really fond of him being resurrected in any shape or form but him not dying seems a bit pointless (especially given the amount of 'fake deaths')... Besides, I don't want him to be released from the Night's Watch! The Others are the biggest threat after all. Needs to stay at the Wall.
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #447 on: September 9, 2013, 08:05:16 pm »
Spoiler
Everything points to that like. He'd still be a bastard though wouldn't he? Also what do people reckon is going to happen to him? He survives? Or dies and comes back somehow, releasing him from the Night's Watch? Not really fond of him being resurrected in any shape or form but him not dying seems a bit pointless (especially given the amount of 'fake deaths')... Besides, I don't want him to be released from the Night's Watch! The Others are the biggest threat after all. Needs to stay at the Wall.
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Spoiler
he wouldn't be a bastard if Rhaegar and Lyanna secretly married. If they did and Aegon was a fake then Jon may even have a claim to the Iron Throne.

As regards to if he died or not, I don't think so. I'm unsure how he's going to survive but Melisandre healing him somehow is likely, I think she knows he has the blood of the dragon. I don't think Martin would kill him off now, makes little sense in terms of the plot line. You never know with Martin though.

I think the next major character to die will be a Lannister or Dany. I'm thinking Cersei is going to die but can see Dany being killed off soon; you just know Martin will delay her getting to Westeros just so she can die before she ever gets there.
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Offline Sindri

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #448 on: September 9, 2013, 11:55:06 pm »
From the Wiki,

Leaf, the child of the forest Bran meets at the cave of the Last Greenseer, says of Coldhands: "They killed him long ago." Will, Waymar Royce and Benjen Stark died/went missing only two years prior, a small amount of time for someone over 200 years old.
I though he was missing for 3years? Any way its still just semantics from me but seeing Leaf said that to Bran he might be meaning a long time ago for him (Bran).
Seeing as that space of time is a hell of long time for some one that is just 11 years old.

Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #449 on: September 10, 2013, 12:04:11 am »
re benjen

Spoiler
Loads of people seem to think the Benj/Coldhands, but I don't buy it really. I just thought it's a warg occupying a wight/other or something. At one point I thought it might be Bran himself, from the future. Tinfoil hat stuff I know, but there are a few clues pointing toward it.

Quote
After finishing Bran's last chapter in ADWD I had a thought that Bran is Coldhands, and I never seen the thought posted here before, so thought I'd share it.
Leaf tells Bran that time for humans is 'like a river' or something and that it passes linearly like that, whereas for greenseers and weirwood's time is something which isn't quite so linear. Bran, then, looks through at his Dad in the past, and Brynden said Bran's powers are great and he could fly etc etc. If time is not as linear as Bran had priorly thought, could Bran, in the future, have warged into Coldhands to help Sam and Gilly, then Bran and the Reed's.
Coldhands, would then be just an Other or wight which Bran takes the form of, to help those in need. Could Bran be so powerful that he can not just look through weirwood's, but actually take the form of people in the past.

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Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Nosss

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #450 on: September 10, 2013, 09:27:28 am »
re benjen

Spoiler
Loads of people seem to think the Benj/Coldhands, but I don't buy it really. I just thought it's a warg occupying a wight/other or something. At one point I thought it might be Bran himself, from the future. Tinfoil hat stuff I know, but there are a few clues pointing toward it.

[close]

Spoiler
I really hope Bran can't affect things from the future. When time-travel is brought into a story I always think there's a risk... I mean, if Bran is able to control Coldhands, why would he have not used him to send word to Wintefell that Ned would die at Kings Landing? Or that the Lannisters have an incestuous relationship? It brings up too many problems imo.

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Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #451 on: September 10, 2013, 09:37:05 am »
Spoiler
Bran controlling Coldhands from the future..bahahahaha. Hell of a crackpot theory, that one.

Rather than ascribing incredible explanations for him, isn't it a lot more plausible to think that maybe Coldhands just isn't that important?

ASOIaF fans love to theorise about each and every character and every little detail.

Having said that, Patchface is the prophet of the Great Other.

;)
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Offline Draex

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #452 on: September 10, 2013, 12:43:10 pm »
Not on topic but I've just finished a book called Malice (John Gwynne) - I really enjoyed it, hopefully the first in a series and it's a pretty similar setting to Game of Thrones. Slightly sluggish in parts and not as complex as GoT, but in the vast void of emptiness that is waiting for the next book it certainly kept me entertained. So thought I'd share the recommendation, for a first novel from a debut author I thought it was very well written.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:45:51 pm by Draex »

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #453 on: September 10, 2013, 06:40:32 pm »
On Bran

Spoiler
I think that time travel theory is very far fetched. I'm not sure what Martin has in store for him though, although I reckon he's going to look at the past and see Lyanna and Rhaegar together or someone reveal that Jon Snow is their child. I wonder if the Jojen paste theory is true, wouldn't be a surprise if it is.
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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #454 on: September 10, 2013, 10:51:11 pm »
Spoiler
Bran controlling Coldhands from the future..bahahahaha. Hell of a crackpot theory, that one.

Rather than ascribing incredible explanations for him, isn't it a lot more plausible to think that maybe Coldhands just isn't that important?

ASOIaF fans love to theorise about each and every character and every little detail.

Having said that, Patchface is the prophet of the Great Other.

;)
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Spoiler
Patchface is the drowned God in my opinion.
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Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Camarero25

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #455 on: September 10, 2013, 11:47:27 pm »
Spoiler
Whoever patchface is he's a creepy little fucker.
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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #456 on: September 11, 2013, 12:59:46 am »
True, shame he got cut out the show at the last second
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #457 on: September 11, 2013, 09:26:58 am »
On Bran

Spoiler
I think that time travel theory is very far fetched. I'm not sure what Martin has in store for him though, although I reckon he's going to look at the past and see Lyanna and Rhaegar together or someone reveal that Jon Snow is their child. I wonder if the Jojen paste theory is true, wouldn't be a surprise if it is.
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That is the most fucked theory I've read. God I hope it isn't true. But at the same time it'd be rather awesome.

Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #458 on: September 11, 2013, 09:52:01 am »
This is an incredibly good site for unpacking ASOIAF theories.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/asoiaf-theories

Well worth reading for people waiting for the next book and want something from the series to chew on. The guy really seems to know his stuff.

Spoilers galore there, obviously.

Offline JTK

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #459 on: September 11, 2013, 10:22:38 am »
Spoiler
always thought he had a significant role to play. then he got cut and that was put to rest. he the creepiest motherfucker of all time though. of that there is no doubt.
[close]

Patchface can be introduced later on though, I suppose.

He has some part to play I think, sure it will be good. Interesting character.

Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. I know. I know…
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 10:25:34 am by JTK »

Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #460 on: September 11, 2013, 10:26:55 am »
Quite an interesting theory, is this one.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/the%20dwarf%27s%20penny/chrono

Would be a devastatingly good twist, if true.

Offline JTK

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #461 on: September 11, 2013, 10:38:02 am »
Quite an interesting theory, is this one.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/the%20dwarf%27s%20penny/chrono

Would be a devastatingly good twist, if true.

Haha I like random theories, it's good discussing the books.

Most theories all here, worth a browse.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79775-a-compendium-of-theories/

Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #462 on: September 11, 2013, 10:54:18 am »
This is quite a good one as well, worth discussing, because Bran gets overlooked so often.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/18091554574/one-does-not-simply-warg-into-hodor

one does not simply warg into Hodor

Spoiler
OK, apparently ghostofharrenhal said Bran wasn’t a good person for warging into Hodor, and got a lot of weird anons calling her out. And, y’know, I get that people are defensive of Bran. I love him too. He’s an innocent kid. He doesn’t know what he’s doing is wrong… but that doesn’t make it not wrong.

What’s the exact difference between a bad person, and a good person who does bad things, after all? (This is one of the major themes of ASOIAF, if you haven’t picked up on that so far, as well as the definition of “bad” and “good”, but anyway.) Philosophers and ethicists may debate the point, but to me it comes down to intent, the repetition of the bad thing, and the results.  And Bran is treading way over the line, unfortunately.

I’ve hinted around this in the last couple posts I made about Bran, but I’m going to lay it all out right now. Warning, spoilers for ADWD and parts of ASOS follow. (Also, idk if I should warn for triggers? But there may be triggering things ahead.)

Now, when Bran first takes over Hodor’s mind in ASOS, it’s a surprise to him. (To them both.)  Bran was just trying to calm Hodor’s fear of the thunderstorm and quiet him, he didn’t even realize he could possess a human being the way he could his wolf.  And the results:

    Hodor staggered, and closed his mouth. He shook his head slowly from side to side, sank back to the floor, and sat crosslegged. When the thunder boomed, he scarcely seemed to hear it. The four of them sat in the dark tower, scarce daring to breathe.
    “Bran, what did you do?” Meera whispered.
    “Nothing.” Bran shook his head. “I don’t know.” But he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer. He had been Hodor for half a heartbeat. It scared him.

It should scare the reader too.  The reader should not just be going “ooh, awesome, Bran’s a super-powerful warg!”  The text is there for a reason.  But then Bran does it again, not much later:

    …he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.
    It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn’t know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor’s throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee.

Hodor is having the control of his body taken away from him, and it terrifies him.  He doesn’t understand, but he becomes nauseated, he tries to fight back.  And he can’t, perhaps because Bran is so powerful, perhaps because of his diminished mental capacity.  And Bran can tell it’s wrong, but he does it anyway.  It’s just like putting on a boot, after all.

But Hodor is not a boot. Hodor is a human being, an adult, with his own mind. He is not an animal, not a pokemon just because the only word he says is his name. (And it’s not even his real name, just as a reminder.) Hodor — Walder — has his own thoughts, his own feelings, his own needs and desires just like any other human being. And just because he’s mentally disabled is no excuse to treat him like an animal, a mere beast of burden.  It’s not an excuse for Bran, and it’s certainly no excuse for the reader, who ought to know better.

Though just in case the reader didn’t realize possessing a human being was a bad thing, Martin makes it obvious in ADWD.  In the prologue, Varamyr Sixskins recalls being told by his skinchanging teacher that “to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all”.  And when Varamyr does attempt to possess the wilding Thistle, the wording used is that he “forced himself inside her”.  The text is explicitly saying that warging a human being is mental rape.

And her reaction? She goes mad. She shrieks, twists violently, screams at him to get out, bites off her own tongue and claws out her own eyes.  Gosh, it sure was a good thing that Bran’s such a powerful warg and that Hodor doesn’t have the mental strength to fight back!  In fact, we learn that when Bran continues to possess Hodor during ADWD:

    Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s me, the boy liked to tell himself. He’s used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor’s skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth.

"Liked to tell himself".  Bran is rationalizing his behavior, which he’s doing just because he’s tired of being a wolf.  There’s no good purpose to this, he’s not controlling Hodor to help defend the group; Bran just doesn’t want to be in his own cold, weak body and being a wolf is tiresome.  And yet Hodor still tries to fight, is still afraid, still doesn’t understand what’s happening to his body and mind. But he’s traumatized, and all he can do is whimper. And hide, deep within his own head:

    The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.

Of course you will, Bran. Of course you’re not wanting to hurt him. But you never tell anyone what you’re doing, and nobody knows you’re possessing Hodor but you and him.  And it gets worse. (Naturally.) In case the reader missed the point also given in the prologue that skinchangers become like the being they possess, it’s also noted in the text that the line between Bran and Hodor is slowly shrinking:

    “Hodor,” Hodor said with every step. “Hodor, hodor.” He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

(Who thought that, Bran or Hodor?)

    Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering?

    No one must ever know.

So, Bran’s last chapter in ADWD. Meera is frightened for her brother’s life, and Bran wants to comfort her.  And the way he wants to do that is to use Hodor’s body, to hug her.  And this thought makes Bran feel strange. Really? You think? In case you have forgotten, Hodor is a young man, seven feet tall, hugely muscled, with “hands strong enough to twist a man’s head off his shoulders, if he takes a mind to”. And though he’s a gentle soul (at least, when in control of himself), what, exactly, do you think would be the reaction of a 17-year-old girl, a warrior maiden, to being embraced by him, out of nowhere? What do you think Hodor’s reaction would be?  Is there anything good that can come of this? Remember what these books are like, for goodness sake.

And that’s why the concept of Bran/Meera is no longer cute to me, not anymore.  It’s why I’m deeply, deeply frightened for Bran, for Meera, for Hodor.  It’s why Bran is on the edge of moving from a good person who does bad things to being not a good person at all.  And why I cannot see it ending well, not for anyone.
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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #463 on: September 11, 2013, 04:35:56 pm »
I think at this point, Bran will either be incredibly important, or unimportant.
Spoiler
dont think he'll ever go back past the wall to be honest
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Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
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Offline JTK

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #464 on: September 11, 2013, 05:01:28 pm »
Don't even know if we need spoilers as this is for people who have read books but I'll be good.

Spoiler
Bran will be very important. First chapter in the books, literally no real point to his chapters so far other than what it is building up to. He can morph into people/animals/trees and see into the past/future. Bran is important.
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Offline JTK

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #465 on: September 11, 2013, 05:03:44 pm »
Spoiler
dont think he'll ever go back past the wall to be honest
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Spoiler
I think that he already has, as a raven to Theon in this early released chapter by GRRM form Winds.http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/sample-chapter-from-winds-of-winter.207815997/
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Offline B0151?

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #466 on: September 11, 2013, 07:32:13 pm »
Agree with that little piece on Bran.
Spoiler
Would have thought it was obvious to everyone that Bran going into Hodor is pretty fucked up. I think he knows it's wrong too. But he is a kid after all. Hard to bear a grudge, just you're meant to think 'oh no, don't Bran'. Especially given that no matter how much skinchanging and greenseeing Bran can do, he still can't walk, climb or be a knight, which is what he really wants to be. There needs to be a point in which someone finds out and sets him straight otherwise it's going to end pretty badly. Bit similar to Arya who can't overcome her desire for vengeance despite her training in House of Black and White (though they're creepy as fuck so that might end up being a good thing) 
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:35:33 pm by Bakez0151 »

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #467 on: September 19, 2013, 07:01:55 pm »
Was thinking about this whole Aegon thing today and:

Spoiler
Does Varys know if he's real or not and does he care either way? What is his plan, why does he want Aegon (if that who it really is) on the throne over Tommen or a Tyrell or even Dany?
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Offline BER

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #468 on: September 19, 2013, 09:42:00 pm »
Was thinking about this whole Aegon thing today and:

Spoiler
Does Varys know if he's real or not and does he care either way? What is his plan, why does he want Aegon (if that who it really is) on the throne over Tommen or a Tyrell or even Dany?
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Wasn't Varys the one who helped Aegon escape Westeros? And in the meantime he's been groomed to become King, a fair and just one. Why? As Varys would say "for the good of the realm".

Spoiler
There are theories that Varys is a Targ or Blackfyre. But i don't think there's much in the books that supports either at the moment.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:43:40 pm by BER »

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #469 on: September 20, 2013, 06:29:02 pm »
Wasn't Varys the one who helped Aegon escape Westeros? And in the meantime he's been groomed to become King, a fair and just one. Why? As Varys would say "for the good of the realm".

Spoiler
There are theories that Varys is a Targ or Blackfyre. But i don't think there's much in the books that supports either at the moment.
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Spoiler
Allegedly, Varys swapped the bodies of Aegon and some peasant baby and smuggled Aegon across the narrow sea to be fostered by Jon Connington (who everyone believes dead also) as some sort of pact with Illyrio. I just don't see how this could easily have been done or why Illyrio would bother with Viserys and Dany if he wanted Aegon on the throne the whole time? Seems unusual to me.
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Offline Beneath

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #470 on: September 21, 2013, 06:14:10 pm »
Spoiler
Allegedly, Varys swapped the bodies of Aegon and some peasant baby and smuggled Aegon across the narrow sea to be fostered by Jon Connington (who everyone believes dead also) as some sort of pact with Illyrio. I just don't see how this could easily have been done or why Illyrio would bother with Viserys and Dany if he wanted Aegon on the throne the whole time? Seems unusual to me.
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Not having all their eggs (pardon the pun) in one basket, perhaps?
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #471 on: September 21, 2013, 07:36:47 pm »
Spoiler
maybe varys and illyrio are just fiercely loyal to house targaryen or backfyre (if aegon is a blackfyre) for reasons unknown to us at this time

could be they just told jon that it was rhaegars son so the kid would have a proper upbringing when he is actually one of damons descendants
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Spoiler
I think they are certainly loyal to house Targaryen; Varys warned Aerys not to open the gates of King's Landing to the Lannister force but he wouldn't listen. I don't think Varys was respected by either Baratheon or Lannister. I just wonder if they planned for Dany and Viserys to die all along; Viserys because they knew he wouldn't make a fit king and Dany because they believed Aegon has more right to the throne being male or because they know Dany will be as mad as her father.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #472 on: September 23, 2013, 05:15:04 am »
I wonder if it really even matters whether Aegon is or isn't a real Targ.

The one context I can think of where it might be critical, is dragons- assuming that Targaryens have some natural affinity with them that others don't.

Spoiler
This may be the whole point of that terrible Quentyn Martell fiasco.
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As for the question of legitimacy, I don't think Dany would care one way or another whether or not he was legitimate: she would want to be Queen regardless.

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #473 on: October 1, 2013, 07:22:38 pm »
Spoiler
I think they are certainly loyal to house Targaryen; Varys warned Aerys not to open the gates of King's Landing to the Lannister force but he wouldn't listen. I don't think Varys was respected by either Baratheon or Lannister. I just wonder if they planned for Dany and Viserys to die all along; Viserys because they knew he wouldn't make a fit king and Dany because they believed Aegon has more right to the throne being male or because they know Dany will be as mad as her father.
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I've just remembered - Varys was on board for Dany to be poisoned way back in book one wasn't he? So maybe he's not so loyal to house Targaryen after all...
Spoiler
this would suggest Aegon may be a fake. I don't think Varys has any clue about Jon being a Targaryan (if that is the case) which is wierd seeing as he seems to be omniscient.
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Offline BER

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #474 on: October 30, 2013, 03:04:24 pm »
The fat piece of shit is never finishing these books is he? Reading his blog he doesn't seem to be working on the books at all.

There been loads of other projects he's started, promised to write material for that he ends up never handing in. He'd even promised to write a chapter or short story for a tribute book for some dead author, they had to delay it for two years and in the end had to push forward without him.

Offline Draex

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #475 on: October 30, 2013, 03:42:11 pm »
I've moved onto other series! Martin was loosing his way anyway, he sold out to the TV Series which is obviously his primary focus now.

Offline ericthered10

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #476 on: October 30, 2013, 03:45:40 pm »
Apparently there is a preview chapter of book 6 in the paperback version of Dance with Dragons?

Offline Draex

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #477 on: October 30, 2013, 03:46:54 pm »
Apparently there is a preview chapter of book 6 in the paperback version of Dance with Dragons?

Yup written 2 years ago - he's hardly progressed from that point at all.

Offline OsirisMVZ

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #478 on: October 30, 2013, 03:49:02 pm »
I've moved onto other series! Martin was loosing his way anyway, he sold out to the TV Series which is obviously his primary focus now.

Can you blame him? He's basically admitted he only started making proper money in his life once the TV show came along.

Offline bobadicious

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #479 on: October 30, 2013, 04:00:12 pm »
Read somewhere hes written 400 pages of probably a 1500 page Winds of Winter. So that 400 pages since DoD was published in 2011. So thats approx 200 pages a year so were like to see WoW some time in 2018!!!! Surely the TV guys will be putting him under pressure to finish before the show, but at the same time i dont want him to rush it and make a balls of it. 
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