Topic: Safe Standing

[Downsy]

I've just been reading about safe standing, and the fact that it's being discussed in parliment again today. I know it's an emotive issue that has been discussed on here many times before but I was just wondering what people's reaction would be under the following circumstances.

I know that most people on here are against bringing it back. As am I, however if it was decided that a small area of the ground was to return to standing which would only be made available to ST holders and those on the waiting list (a large proportion of our members), which  would cut the list down quite dramatically would anyones opinion be altered.

In other words, if they offered you a ticket for every game to return to terracing in a small section how many would be prepared to accept it?

[Homesick]

It depends how safe the standing is Downsy and how it could be partitioned to prevent pushes and rushes forward and likely crushing.  It also depends on how the police tactics would alter to deal with the change.

I feel the ambience of a ground has a bearing on the fans.  When some are virtually caged in then taunted by the opposition fans it mixes a dangerous cocktail that can so easily lead to a disaster.

I was in the XYZ section at Heysel as a Liverpool fan but also as a BBC radio reporter covering crowd behaviour and ended up pulling bodies from under a wall.  The Belgian police then belted me with long thin sticks because they totally lost the plot.

I remember the cracked concrete, the chicken-wire flimsy fence, the large area of barrier-free terracing, and the heavily armed riot Belgian police who over reacted, charged and then ran away allowing the fans to cascade forwards.

It would need the police and the clubs to develop a strategy that made fans feel like human beings rather than caged animals.

[Dave_W]

A very difficult topic for Liverpool fans, as we all know.  As I wasn't at either Hillsborough or Heysel, I'm not qualified to comment about what happened at either - if I had been, I'm pretty sure I would have a different view to the one I'm about to express...

What I know is that I enjoyed standing on terraces when I was younger and would be perfectly happy to do so again - it would allow you to be with all your mates at the match and would improve the atmosphere (and, for me, the enjoyment) tenfold.

However, there is no such thing as completely safe standing, although given that the seat in front of me at Anfield only comes up to my shin, I don't think they're entirely safe either.  That said, there is a far better understanding of how to make terraces safer (note - not safe, but safer), hence they have been re-introduced in stadiums like Borussia Dortmund's.

However, it is far more difficult for stadiums to become over-crowded and for large numbers of people to be hurt in all-seater stadiums - though the tragedies in Africa last year were at all-seater stadiums as I recall (please put me right if I'm not).

Then there is the money issue - there is a desire to make football and therefore stadiums more attractive to daytrippers (and make more money!).  I can't see many of them wanting to take little Joshua on to a standing terrace for some reason.

There are many other points that are relevant here, but terraces also hark back to the 'bad' old days of hooliganism, the taking of ends and so forth.  Given the recent upsurge in violence, it seems even less likely (not that it seemed particularly likely before) that there will be change of political will in the current climate.  

I seem to remember Kate Hoey (who was Sports Minister before the latest Blair parrot who has been so invisible I can't even remember his name... Richard something?) speaking out for a return to standing not long ago and then being removed from the job not long after.

A return to standing?  Not for a good long while yet, if ever, though I for one wouldn't have a problem with it.

[saph]

what would actually be ok but possibly not viable at amatch is standing liek at gigs....but the area has to eb flat! this would prevent surges forward and downwards but not exactly help viewing!

[mobydick]

Poor little Joshua, he'll never get to see a game.
Why not though ? I was taken to my first match by my mother 36 years ago,I developed her passion for the game. This passion comes from the people you go with, meet with and communicate with (amongst other things). I stood on the terraces with my wife, we took the kids and stood there.   What happened ? Tragedy, and all-seater stadiums. I know the history but I find it difficult to believe, with all this cash about these days, that it can't be done better next time.
Bring back standing room, but do it right.

[Dave_W]

I take your point, mobydick, but I guess you wouldn't describe your mother as a 'daytripper', given her passion for the game that you mention?

All I was trying to get across, and not particularly well I admit, is that there will be other issues that clubs will consider when looking at whether or not standing areas should be re-introduced than just safety.  

Thats not to say they don't consider safety by far the most important issue, because it is, but they will certainly be looking at whether your average 'one-off' visitor to Anfield would rather sit or stand.  For the majority, and this is only my opinion, I think they would probably choose to sit.

[mobydick]

I think you are right there Dave_W, most "daytrippers" probable would prefer to sit. : I think these people must be catered for, sitters that is, not so much the "Trippers" but honestly it would be no contest, from  a sales point of view, as to which tickets would be sold out first. Standing fans would, as we all know, improve the atmosphere at most football matches, for the simple reason, the same people meet up every week and sing their heads off.
It's difficult to generate any feeling at a match if the "fans" to the left and right of you  don't know sweet FA about what they are watching. To tell you the truth it gets up my nose putting people right when they come out with so much crap, so I've told the lad to do it from now on, he's 15 and is a fund of info, he's not as cynical as I am either
If the true fans could be given room and were encouraged, by way of season tickets, ( paid for weekly if needed) to always go to the same "Pen", controls could be established so that trouble could be avoided and we wouldn't, hopefully, have repeats of that crap we saw in Cardiff last week.
Just a few thoughts.

[Homesick]

I suppose the other issue for me regarding standing is the fear of the authorities not learning the lessons of the past.

[red_ped]

ABOSULTELY NO FENCES. The primary means of escape/relief is the pitch. Any campaign for safe standing areas should address the monsterous cages in the lower league grounds. The primary danger to safety in ANY and EVERY football ground is that those who are responsible for our safety should be held accountable when they lose control, including police officers, football club employees (from safety officers to scarpering stewards), safety licence agencies and football authorities.
They are charged with our care when we turn up but not charged when they f*ck up.That's criminal(or not as experience of Hillsborough suggests).
As it is, everyone standing in a seat size space, I am quite happy to stand at the match.