Author Topic: General Manchester City thread  (Read 3433309 times)

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5560 on: July 31, 2013, 05:43:05 pm »

Wow.

Read quite a bit on here and posts like that  make it worth while.

Always liked City. Always liked their fans. Shame what's been done to their club.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5561 on: July 31, 2013, 05:49:43 pm »
Wow.

Read quite a bit on here and posts like that  make it worth while.

Always liked City. Always liked their fans. Shame what's been done to their club.
tbf last season a couple of their fans (from one of their supporters groups) called into BBC5 live and despite sitting pretty on top of the league voiced concerns that the club no longer belonged to them and had just become an advertising branch of Abu Dhabi. Agree about that post, before I start whinging and going off on one about lack of finances, I'll take a step back and think about that post.
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Offline Il Capitano

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5562 on: July 31, 2013, 05:50:05 pm »
It's not naive. It's perfectly reasonable to say, "The sport is obviously fucked up in general. I love football, and I love my club, so I'm willing to put up with a lot of shit from my owners that I don't support. However, there comes a point at which it's just too much, and I can't support it anymore, at least with my money. Or, at the very least, I will oppose it, acknowledge it for what it is, but support my club anyway because I won't let someone like this take the club away from me."

I find it an utterly bizarre position to take up. It's turning a blind eye to everything that goes on in football - the absolutely ruthless, crass business it is - then finding some aspects of it unpalatable.

It's like people buying Primark clothing despite knowing they run sweatshops in foreign countries, then being outraged when a factory collapses in Bangladesh due to building instability and unsafe working conditions, and a thousand people die. It doesn't make you informed to have an opinion, it makes you just as much of a spoon-fed consumer as the next guy.

Quote
Everyone has that line, I think. It's just a question of where it is. If Mugabe bought Liverpool, I hope you agree that that would be over the line.

Nothing surprises me about the world I live in. The fact is that you can act as outraged as you want about a despot, but what does anybody in this country really want to do about an issue like Mugabe? They sit idly by, having strong opinions about it. Maybe donating to charity. Both are not solutions to the problem, they are attempts to supplement the ego.

As is deciding to find Manchester City's owners unpalatable now a story has emerged in the news to do with UAE's human rights abuse record. Anybody could have looked up UAE's record, or their laws and punishments, but the subject had no momentum behind it prior to this story. What was everyone's perception of Sheikh Mansour when he was smiling and waving at the City Of Manchester Stadium three years ago?

I wouldn't want Mugabe near the football club because it's something I utterly cherish. But I acknowledge the game for what it is now, it doesn't surprise me and I'm not going to pretend to be interested in the politics behind Manchester City's ownership like the mere virtue of me possessing a strong opinion I didn't have yesterday makes me a civilised individual.

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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5563 on: July 31, 2013, 05:53:00 pm »
Currently annihilating AC Milan.
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Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5564 on: July 31, 2013, 05:53:28 pm »
AC Milan ;D
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Offline cox3100

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5565 on: July 31, 2013, 05:54:11 pm »
5-1  :o

Offline sparrowred

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5566 on: July 31, 2013, 05:54:18 pm »
5-0 after 35 minutes. That is fucking embarrassing for AC Milan, preseason or not.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5567 on: July 31, 2013, 05:54:38 pm »
J.Garcia at the CB experiment wont last long...

Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5568 on: July 31, 2013, 05:55:47 pm »
J.Garcia at the CB experiment wont last long...

Was just thinking that.
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Offline Mad Max

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5569 on: July 31, 2013, 05:56:38 pm »
5-2

Offline amir87

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5570 on: July 31, 2013, 05:56:58 pm »
Remember Istanbul, Milan. BELIEVE!

Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5571 on: July 31, 2013, 05:57:03 pm »
Hard to say whose defence is worse ;D.
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Offline AnotherSpanishfan

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5572 on: July 31, 2013, 05:57:06 pm »
J.Garcia at the CB experiment wont last long...

He's kind of rubbish at his natural position, let alone at CB

Offline cox3100

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5573 on: July 31, 2013, 05:59:52 pm »
5-3.

This game is fucking funny

Offline Chakan

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5574 on: July 31, 2013, 06:00:07 pm »
5-3 good game this ;)

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5575 on: July 31, 2013, 06:00:35 pm »
AC Milan doing a `Istanbul`

Isnt it ironic, dont you think...

Offline vicgill

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5576 on: July 31, 2013, 06:01:43 pm »
As Rafa said.....'Football is a lie'.  Its all that needs to be said.

The sport is completely corrupt, yet its too hard to give it up as a fan.

Its just some areas of the sport/ individuals/ clubs are more corrupt than others.

But the sport as a whole is f*cked.

If anybody does have stern principles on corruption, I think football is unfortunately the wrong sport for them

never a truer word
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Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5577 on: July 31, 2013, 06:03:43 pm »
City clearly should never have sold Kolo Toure!

Offline OOS

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5578 on: July 31, 2013, 06:04:05 pm »
Cracking game this.  ;D
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Offline vicgill

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5579 on: July 31, 2013, 06:14:00 pm »
My father was born in the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as was I, and he has a degree in Marxism. My father didn't give a shit about success just as he didn't give a shit about aesthetics, he was also a Red Star Belgrade supporter so he had all the success he could possibly hope for and all the beautiful football to accompany it, he ain’t a glory hunter like you alluded to, he admired the man that Shankly was and the ideals that he stood for. So don’t fucking ‘suspect’ anything. Now on to the rest of your drivel. Where did I say that LFC was run as a socialist collective? Nowhere. Of course there has to be a capitalist element in every football club, we live in a capitalist world. The socialism of course being represented mainly in the way the players played, and in the mentality of Shankly, not in the way the club was run. So on to your other ‘point’: really did they charge you money? Really? You don't say, how odd... a capitalist venture needing money to cover its operating costs? How fucking peculiar? 
Now, tell me this are you REALLY comparing Bill Shankly to a billionaire autocrat? A football manager to an ACTUAL LIVING BREATHING dictator? Have a fucking word with yourself you embarrassing gobshite, you should be fucking banished from this site for daring to make that abhorrent comparison alone.

Where to start here... Hmm.. let’s try.. Did the Edwards family torture innocent people? Where they autocratic billionaire dictators? Did they intimidate, harass, torture and jail their opponents? All capital hails from the original sin of primitive capital accumulation, so of course every rich family has its seedy origin, that is the way of the fucking world and has been since time immemorial. However, there’s a fucking world of difference, between a merely rich family like the Edwards (because like you well fucking know, little rabbit, most clubs at the time were owned by such families) and a billionaire family of totalitarian despotic fucking dictators with their own military and state fucking security apparatus.
And no my father isn’t a muslim.

Yes it did. The club did die. Or almost. That’s why we were moments away from bankruptcy. That’s why the club almost ceased to fucking exist. That's why we all -  YES ME TOO - protested H&G once we found out, through Benitez, just how rotten these cowboys were, just how destructive their policies were, that’s why we sent mass emails to banks and other establishments, that’s why we fucking mobilized against them. That’s why we had to fucking F5 our way through court battles and learn words like scurrilous. Liverpool however is not just some football club, it’s a special club, special because the values that Shankly instilledin it still live on, in places like this, like RAWK, which is special and to be cherished, unlike other football forums which are remarkably lesser in quality. Ans as long as the Kopites remember this, it will remain a special club. Not just some run-of-the-mill nothing-of-a-club like Manchester City.

And yes, congratulations on this one point, that yes, an essential part of a football club is OFCOURSE the business side of the club. Of course, there has to be an element of investment, however you are intentionally making a mockery of rational thought in comparing the minimal investment of fsg (they haven’t ‘pumped’ shit into the club, just look at all the fsg bashers on here whinging, get your facts right) to the massive injection of straight up FINANCIAL DOPING, on a previously unimaginable fucking scale, committed by the autocrat scum that rule the Rich Man’s Gloryhole that  your, let’s be generous and call it a 'club', has become.

I like our new owners fsg, they have a good decent wholesome model of how to operate a decent football club, I love the fact that we are growing organically (compared to the synthetic unnatural ‘development’ of your ‘club’) I particularly like that we won’t SPEND our way to the top, we will EARN IT. Or we won’t. Either way if we achieve glory we will have earned it with good, sound policy and hard fucking work both on and off the pitch not just the random, soulless, shallow-glory like the one artificially generated by a lunatic dictator fucking chucking billions of petro-dollars at it. In short completely unlike you and the propaganda vehicle that has become your ‘club’.
 
And yes, that’s why I still support the club, even though it isn’t what it used to be, because fundamentally speaking it is still THAT, a football club first and foremost. That monstrosity that you support isn’t. It’s a prestigious penis extension, a way for billionaire pricks to get their jollies on, nothing more than a status symbol, designed to make them feel special, and a propaganda vehicle for one of the most brutal regimes ruled by utter, utter, sub-human scum.

Because at the end of the day LFC is still mainly a FOOTBALL CLUB.  Not just some plaything of a ‘man’ with a small penis and more money than sense. Because at the end of the day football supporters and fans all over the world literally HATE your club for what it has done to this sport, it being the final nail in the coffin of what was once a competitive sport and a beautiful game. Because at the end of the day if LFC win a trophy again it will be on m e r i t, on actual hard work, on getting things right on and off the pitch,  not simply a function of economics, ie.  match fixing through injections of financial doping. Because that’s all what you are doing. Just pumping more and more and more financial doping into your squad. Disgusting really and has nothing to do with the sport.
 

You understand FUCK ALL about this club and if possible even less about the Suarez – Evra affair. Dalglish defended Suarez as best he could. Because that is The Liverpool Way. Because we protect our own. Shanks also would have fucking fought tooth and fucking nail for Suarez don’t fucking even dare think otherwise.  Nobody fucking walks alone here.  Something evidently lost on small minds..

You can rationalize this any which way you want. I get it. It must be hard to convince yourself that your club isn’t the worst thing that has ever happened to this sport. It must be hard knowing that all over Europe football people utterly LOATHE your club (and not in the passive way that they dislike LFC or Man Utd, clubs they dislike mainly because of sporting reasons, no they actively hate city and what it symbolizes). It must be very painful to continually repress these feelings and to constantly re-write reality to fit your viewpoint.

You fucking well know that you are owned by a murderous, illiberal, despotic, totalitarian, undemocratic, torturing, rights suppressing, freedom denying tyrant. If you feel comfortable with that than, guess what, you are a fucking bad person with bad fucking morals, being a tribalist football fan does NOT excuse you from this, it does not excuse you from being a decent human being, even though you try to lazily hide behind the Veil of Illogical Supporterdom. There’s a fucking line there, it ain’t thin at all, it’s clearly demarcated and its very fucking visible. It’s your (utterly reprehensible) choice to ignore it.   


Well that was some read but worth it, great post lad and you are 100% right about Shankly.
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Offline MagicHat

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5580 on: July 31, 2013, 07:20:48 pm »
Oh you mean the one time when that one guy whathisname tried to act the cool mr.  know it all and insulted Ajax and Cruijff? Smearing despicable lies and rubbish all over the appalled face of reality?  That post is in the 'important posts you might have missed' thread for a reason. I was insulting because he insulted my club. I always treat people the same way they treat me. Insult and talk shit about my club and my heroes and I will insult and talk shit back.

I know I have anger issues that's why my name is wickedbark. Fuck your kettle and fuck your pot.

And fuck off with that cringe worthy bullshit I bolded. Embarrassing really. Have a fucking word with yourself. Are you really that precious mr. PC brigade? Ugh, know one thing about me, I don't care much for literalism, if you choose to read my posts literally then have fun! I wont waste my time in stopping you feeling all dignified and prim and proper and courteous and whatever else you think you are projecting  :wave

You spent nearly the entire discussion abusing the guy becuase he disagreed with you on Cryuff, it was a pity the brilliance of your argument was beneath a lot of filth. The man had a view that differed, kept his head fairly well while you went vitriolic, and when you finished the debate, which had been extremely informative, you went on a massive strop. You can argue well, your clearly an intelligent man but you do not need to be a complete git towards other people and call for their bans because they don't agree with you on something.

So becuase I don't think saying a guy would commit child abuse becuase of you is acceptable, even as a joke boast to belittle your opponent, I'm a PC? Gladly be one. I don't particularly care what I come across as, though I try to be polite, but you used violence against children to attack another, I just can't see that as acceptable.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:25:59 pm by MagicHat »

Offline 24/7

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5581 on: July 31, 2013, 07:39:31 pm »
Locked for a while. Please, everyone, calm down. Thanks.

*EDIT*
Back open - the above still stands though, cheers.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:59:10 pm by 24/7 »

Offline Doc Red

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5582 on: August 1, 2013, 05:17:07 am »
/snip/
You fucking well know that you are owned by a murderous, illiberal, despotic, totalitarian, undemocratic, torturing, rights suppressing, freedom denying tyrant. If you feel comfortable with that than, guess what, you are a fucking bad person with bad fucking morals, being a tribalist football fan does NOT excuse you from this, it does not excuse you from being a decent human being, even though you try to lazily hide behind the Veil of Illogical Supporterdom. There’s a fucking line there, it ain’t thin at all, it’s clearly demarcated and its very fucking visible. It’s your (utterly reprehensible) choice to ignore it.

Jeez, that must have stung!

If we only knew how football would change from the moment Roman took over Chelsea.
The game of football has changed, the concept of success has changed (earning 4th place has arguably become on par with winning a trophy, sadly enough), the mindset of players and supporters has changed, and worst of all seems to be what WickedBark has so eloquently hinted at; our morality has changed.

How much will we/should we overlook in that chase for success? Trophies are great, we should know, in years gone by we accumulated more in a few years than most clubs have in their lifetime. But Liverpool Football club is more than that, and if you think it's only about winning trophies, well, you haven't been paying attention. City is in prime position to threaten for trophies in the near future, but at what cost? You can buy success, but can you buy tradition? or Class?
Man City will become the club every fan dislikes, they're like the Yankees on steriods. And after the initial "love affair" today's generation of top players seem to have with grouping themselves into corporate clubs and doubling their salaries, things will even out eventually. If money alone could buy sustainable success, the Yankees would have won far more titles than they've done. You can only fit so many players in one squad.

We've become so consumed in living in the now, we've forgotten that history is made over time. Success can be fleeting, and I'd much rather support Liverpool-struggling to make it back on top whilst also trying to balance the financial books, than a club flush with oil money from owners that can afford all the top players twice over. It may sound cliche, but I was drawn to Liverpool for more than their trophy success. I get the club, I get the fans, and the history resonates with me. We haven't won the league title for 2+ decades, but have a look at the videos of our fans in Asia, many weren't even alive when we last won the league, but they're still loud as ever, and as hopeful as ever.

I really would like to know how the majority of City fans feel about the current regime in charge, and their switch to become the new "Chelsea". Success must feel great (after decades without a trophy), but surely there must be slight unease at the manner of the success? Doesn't the success taste a little less sweet than you'd have expected?

I remember when I used to complete the old Doom with all the cheats (IDDQD+IDKFA-still remember it! ;) ) Was great fun to finish, and yet, it felt strangely hollow at the end. Like all the excitement was taken out of it, simply because I knew I'd stacked all the odds on my side.

On a side note, I do think your manager is going to be a step up from Mancini.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5583 on: August 1, 2013, 10:44:55 am »
I really would like to know how the majority of City fans feel about the current regime in charge, and their switch to become the new "Chelsea". Success must feel great (after decades without a trophy), but surely there must be slight unease at the manner of the success? Doesn't the success taste a little less sweet than you'd have expected?

On a side note, I do think your manager is going to be a step up from Mancini.
We've been told to cool it so I won't reply to him in kind but I'll answer you. 15 years ago we were a week away from starting our campaign in League 1, the first time we'd ever been in the third tier. Even though we were in the third tier we got crowds of 30,000 every home game and set attendance records at many away stadiums. Just before Xmas that season, we lost at York and were in the bottom half of that division. Amazingly we clawed our way back and got to the play-off final where we played Gillingham. With 30 seconds left in normal time we were 2-0 down but got one back. There were 5 minutes of injury time and with just one minute left, we equalised and went on to win the penalty shoot-out after extra-time. The next season we were promoted to the PL, then relegated and promoted again. Since then we've stayed in the PL.

This time 5 years ago, we were desperately trying to avoid going into administration, with Thaksin having spent money we didn't have. We managed to get financing to keep us going but we'd have been in serious trouble again within 12 months. Then Sheikh Mansour came along and it was the equivalent of winning the lottery. And I asked myself the same question you asked "Would success taste hollow?". Well I'm afraid to say it didn't.

I keep trying to rationalise why it didn't but the simple fact is I'm a fan and most fans would justify pretty much anything to see their team win things. I laugh when I see people say "I couldn't support my club if we were like City" because it's complete and utter bullshit. If you're a true supporter you support your club through everything, good times and bad. You accept the times you've had bad luck and the times it's all gone for you. If Dubai came back and bought you off FSG, pouring money in and bringing you back to the top table people like wickedbark may walk away but 99% of you would go with the ride and not question it, whatever you say now. I've said it before and some of you have agreed with me - as football fans, we have an incredible capacity for hypocrisy and delusion. "Our" player does something wrong and we support him. Another club's player does the same thing and he's a cheat. Does it bother anyone on here that you wear a shirt with the name of a bank that was recently handed the second highest fine for money-laundering?

Conn himself is a good example of someone between a rock and a hard place. He's done the hard yards over the years with City and still loves the club. He even thinks the owners are very good owners to have and run the club well. But he's deeply uncomfortable with the fact that money is now the driver (not that it ever wasn't). I'm a partisan City fan but I'm also a football fan and am concerned about the future of the game. I want the best for my club but I wouldn't be happy with a situation similar to La Liga, with just us and Chelsea battling it out. But look at last season - in the second half we got 39 points and you got 36. We didn't get a single win in the CL. The season before, Chelsea finished 6th. Arsenal spend nothing yet finish 4th. So we're not in La Liga territory yet.

I know of one high-profile City fan, author Colin Shindler, who has "walked away" because he hates the club being used as a marketing tool for Thai politics & Abu Dhabi. His criticism of the club and owners is quite vituperative but he's entitled to his view. Yet in one way or other, all big clubs are marketing tools. People pay us to manufacture the shirt, get their name on it, have their product associated with the "brand" as an official partner and put adverts around the ground so they're seen all around the world.

George Bernard Shaw once asked a woman if she'd sleep with him for £1m. "Yes" she replied. He then asked if she'd sleep with him for £1. "No. What sort of woman do you think I am?" she replied. "We've already established what sort of woman you are. We're merely trying to agree your price."

Football established what it was many years ago. In the age of the mimimum wage, the better players were paid extra money illegally, either with cash in envelopes or sinecure jobs with directors' companies. To get round FA regulations about dividends and paying salaries to directors, clubs formed holding companies. Clubs like Liverpool demanded that they kept all home gate receipts, to their financial benefit and the detriment of smaller clubs. The G14, of which you were a founder member, demanded clubs were paid for their players being on international duty and threatened to withdraw from established competitions and form a super-league unless they got their way. They demanded a bigger share of the financial pie in the CL. What did Shankly say about everyone working to the same end and having a share in the rewards?

The fact is that we got to the top table in a different way. Call it what you like but we've not broken any rules. Like us, you were delighted to be rescued from the threat of administration. The difference is that our rescuers had more money than yours but the principle was the same.

Does anyone ever criticise Wigan & Fulham? Whelan bankrolled Wigan's rise from non-league to Premier League. If he ever withdrew his support they'd collapse. But I bet no Wigan (or any other) fan thought "We've bought this" when they beat us at Wembley. But suppose Whelan had been a multi-billionaire (god help us) and taken them to the top four. Would that have been alright? At what point would the line have been crossed?

As to the last part of your post, Pellegrini is definitely going to be a step up from Mancini. For one thing, he knows how to keep his players on his side, which Mancini never did. I've heard stories that a number of key players were seriously considering transfer requests this summer if he'd still been in place. Mancini was so divisive in so many ways. Reading the Moyes thread with people talking about his tendency to over-train players, the former City team doctor was quite strict about over-training and bringing players back too early and we had by some considerable diatance the best injury record in the 2011/12 season. But because he stood up to Mancini, he was sacked in favour of someone more pliable and we had a much worse injury record last season, possibly to the detriment of our title challenge.

Mancini, in both the title winning season and last, he was too ready to adopt a more conservative approach in favour of defensive solidity which sacrificed our attacking capability. I'd be interested to hear PhaseOfPlay's view on the fact that we used to bring every single player back for a corner and not leave anyone upfield. Yesterday's game was a bit of a jaw-dropper but we already looked to be back to our most vibrant going forward since the first dozen games of the title winning season (although the less said about the defence the better). I wouldn't ever put much reliance on a friendly but the signs are good so far.



« Last Edit: August 1, 2013, 01:41:28 pm by ManchesterBlue »

Offline the 92A

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5584 on: August 1, 2013, 11:53:44 am »
I think that Manchester Blue raises interesting points. On one hand there is football tribalism and on another hand  the effect that Money and other structural changes has had in football and it doesn't help if the two are mixed up. From a tribalist point of view it's easy to criticise Man City or Chelsea for buying success but can you criticise their true supporters who followed them when the success wasn't there? They're the only ones I don't begrudge their success. I think you have to take tribalism out the equation to understand some of the changes that have taken place to the structure of the game and how they've effected all of us as fans.

Up until the Sky Project most first division clubs had a chance of being successful and we look back at that era with fondness but it was never a socialist utopia, the fans or the trade unionists never ran the clubs, they were run by the local factory or mill owner, usually complete with a Rolls Royce, a fat belly and big cigar. Mirroring changes in wider society we've changed the local factory owner for the multi-national capitalists or despot seeking to clean their image or money. Yes Shankly was a Socialist and it fitted hand in glove with most of us as supporters but John Smith or the Moores family were never Socialists far from it. We followed the football and worshiped Shankly, who reflected our beliefs and ignored who the owners where because they weren't important, Shankly was delivering us the dream with politics that made sense to us.

Recently we've seen a change of owners to ruthless multi-nationals, carpetbaggers, tyrants and oligarchs who wants to clean their image up, hardly an inspiring choice for most fans, who are usually an after thought as big business runs rough shod over their clubs. But as with most changes, the majority end up losers but there have been a few winners and City and Chelsea can now compete. I don't know what I'd do If We where bought by some Saudi despot. It would genuinely appall me but on the other hand would I walk away from something that has been part of my life for so long or would I come to some sort of compromise separating the football from the ownership situation, because we're used to doing that as football fans. Like many of us I was excited when we got rid of G and H and were nearly bought by the Chinese, but where do they rate on the despot scale, would we have ignored human rights abuse in China if they'd have bankrolled us? I don't think it's a simple decision and I'd hope that I would walk away but lets not pretend that would be an easy decision for any of us. We're all tribal in football but recent changes to the game sometimes mean we might have to put the ball away to look after our interests as fans seperate from tribalism, because football without the fans is nothing ;) .
« Last Edit: August 1, 2013, 12:29:12 pm by The 92A »
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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5585 on: August 1, 2013, 05:07:48 pm »
If Dubai came back and bought you off FSG, pouring money in and bringing you back to the top table people like wickedbark may walk away but 99% of you would go with the ride and not question it, whatever you say now. I've said it before and some of you have agreed with me - as football fans, we have an incredible capacity for hypocrisy and delusion. "Our" player does something wrong and we support him. Another club's player does the same thing and he's a cheat. Does it bother anyone on here that you wear a shirt with the name of a bank that was recently handed the second highest fine for money-laundering?

Great response, first of all.
And to be honest, I get what you're saying. But I'm not sure you're really understanding our position. See, I think I can understand, to a degree, how it much have felt for City fans, after decade(s?) in the doldrums without winning trophies, and the latter of which was spent seesawing in the lower divisions, to get a Knight in shining armour that pumps Ca$h into your club and brings you up to play at the "big" table with the big players. In one swoop (two actually!) you became owned by multibillionaires that can afford to bring all the top players into your club, no questions asked, and make you instant title contenders.

It's like a homeless begger in the street, that get's offered a mansion, keys to a phantom, and a weekly stipend in the thousands. How many people in that situation would hesitate before accepting? We're surely not going to start questioning- "hang on a sec, where is this money coming from? or you an upstanding member of our community? what are your morals and ethics concerning finance and capitol? We'll take the money and go, and maybe, possibly, in the future, we might start to consider where our newfound wealth came from.

So I understand, in this point in time, City fans are just happy to be challenging for trophies, and attracting the top talent. The moral and ethics aspect of the cash influx, the role the club+owners have played in changing the way the game is being played and run, can all wait for another day. As you mentioned in your prior post: "I was more concerned about what Thaksin did to my club than what he did to Thailand. The problems of Thailand aren't my problems.".

See. I get you. But you're making a mistake by assuming the role reversal would result in the same response and general laissez-faire attitude from us. We may not have won a league title for decades, but, and as I mentioned earlier, we've still won more trophies in the decades since, than most clubs have won in their history. We're obviously wishing to win more, and the general feeling is we need to be competing for, and winning, the league title for it to be considered a truly successful return. But we're not starving. We have a winning pedigree, and we've still been filling up the cabinet in the last decade. If I can continue with the above "poor man" analogy, we're upper middle class. Sure we wouldn't say no to an upgrade of our car/house/salary, but it's more a want as opposed to a need. We've already had our taste of the dark side courtesy of our previous owners, and we're far more likely to question the moral an ethical aspect that any owner would bring during their ownership.

It's not about us sitting on our high horses smug in our aura of self indulgent moral and ethical views, we're just not in the same situation City fans found themselves in when they were going through their rollercoaster relegation ride. We still believe we can win without bundles of cash flung everywhere in order to entice success. At least, we do for now. Who knows, might our attitude on billionaire owners, whom care little about splashing fortunes on their playthings, change after we've gone 10 years without a trophy? That's up for debate.

But as of this moment, yes, many of us would have a problem with being owned by oil magnates. But the game of football is changing, and slowly so are we.

I don't know what I'd do If We where bought by some Saudi despot. It would genuinely appall me but on the other hand would I walk away from something that has been part of my life for so long or would I come to some sort of compromise separating the football from the ownership situation, because we're used to doing that as football fans. I don't think it's a simple decision and I'd hope that I would walk away but lets not pretend that would be an easy decision for any of us.

Precisely. We can debate long and hard about what might/could/would happen, but at the end of the day, it's only assumptions and theorisations. I'm just thankful we're not in that type of situation where we have to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries in order to placate our success.
But then again, in today's capitalistic environment we may already have been turning a blind eye to such things, whether consciously or unconsciously. (how many people give a second thought about where their clothes are made, and what are the respective work conditions?)
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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5586 on: August 1, 2013, 05:34:51 pm »
We've been told to cool it so I won't reply to him in kind but I'll answer you.

-snip-

Great post.

I agree with you almost completely.  It's easy to criticise fans who support teams who are the beneficiaries of "financial doping" because they're opposing fans, and we naturally want to see their team fail.  However, if push came to shove, we would be right there celebrating Aguero's last-second goal to win us the league over United, just like City.  Would we care that he had been bought with close to £40 million from ethically-dubious sources?  Not a chance.

The Suarez thing is the perfect example.  I know for a fact I would have despised him with every fibre of my being if he had played for United.  I wouldn't have bought the racism thing, because I'm from South America and had a completely different perspective on it from most, but I guarantee you the boards here would have been full of gloating had the situation been reversed.  I'm certain I would have reviled him as a diver, a whinger and a cheat, the same way I did to the odious Ronaldo when he was doing the same there.

I'm a hypocrite, pure and simple, and so are almost all football fans.  I admire the ones with the courage to walk away from a football club when the good is outweighed by the bad, but I know that I'm not one of them.  Unless Liverpool were actively promoting puppy murder at halftime or something, I'm going to watch the games and cheer when we score.  It's just part of who I am at this point.
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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5587 on: August 1, 2013, 06:04:42 pm »
Just realised ESPN has disappeared due to the BT change so going to have to stream the Bayern City game, should be a good one too.

Need to sort that out soon, bit of a nuisance this BT change.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5588 on: August 1, 2013, 08:19:45 pm »
anyone have the City-Bayern stream ?

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5589 on: August 1, 2013, 08:38:11 pm »
For anyone in the UK this is on Freeview. May need to retune but I've just got in and am watching it.

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5590 on: August 1, 2013, 08:43:54 pm »
Everytime I've watched a match at the Allianz Arena I've been completely unimpressed with the atmosphere.
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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5591 on: August 1, 2013, 09:01:02 pm »
Everytime I've watched a match at the Allianz Arena I've been completely unimpressed with the atmosphere.

each time they are away though they have a good atmosphere

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5592 on: August 1, 2013, 09:04:39 pm »
Losing 2-1 to Bayern

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5593 on: August 1, 2013, 09:14:05 pm »
 :lmao The commentator mentioning that Bayern still have only 4 stars on their strip despite winning five European Cups. Then mentioning that the win over Dortmund has created "a problem" because they need to "re-do" their strip to add another star. Actually the 4 stars are for 20 bundesliga titles.

Offline EstonianRed

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5594 on: August 1, 2013, 09:25:42 pm »
Ended 2-1 to bayern

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5595 on: August 1, 2013, 09:40:37 pm »
Ended 2-1 to bayern
Second half we were the better team i think. 

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5596 on: August 2, 2013, 12:36:26 am »

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5597 on: August 2, 2013, 01:16:57 am »
Everytime I've watched a match at the Allianz Arena I've been completely unimpressed with the atmosphere.
Bayern are notorious for attracting the glory-hunting contingent of Munich. They have one of the shittest atmospheres in Germany because of this.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5598 on: August 2, 2013, 01:18:40 am »
Just wanted to congratulate DocRed and The 92A on your intelligent, well-thought out responses. Without wanting to sound patronising it's what I expect from Liverpool fans and why I come on here.

The world of modern football is a strange one, where we're faced with choices and moral considerations we really didn't have a number of years ago. And the blind loyalty we show to our teams is part of the reason people forcing us to make those choices get away with it.

And I think I understand where Liverpool fans are; I recognise that, as a club, you are footballing aristocracy fallen on hard times and you've had to let these uncouth foreign oiks buy your stately home while you move to a cottage in the grounds.

But there's another reason and it's the tale of two seasons, 1976/77 and 2008/09. In the former, you were at what I think was your peak in my lifetime. But we weren't half bad either (which is why the term "homeless beggars" isn't quite accurate as we'd had 10 very good years up to then) and in that season we finished one point behind you, which was particularly galling as we gifted you a draw via a Dave Watson own goal at our place. We were without Colin Bell virtually all season as well. If he'd been fit, we might well have won it. The season before we'd won a trophy and we had an FA Cup Final appearance to come a few years later.

The following season, we put in an absolutely stupendous performance to beat you 3-1 at Maine Road, which is still a game that sticks in my mind to this day. We thought we had a chairman who was going to take us places but he turned out to be a complete idiot and ripped the team and the club apart. It took 25 years to stop being a yo-yo club & re-establish ourselves back in the top flight. We don't really get bitter as fans on the whole but you often looked around at some of the places we played and thought "How the hell did we get into this mess?" while others were picking up the riches of the Premier League and CL.

In 2008/09, you finished second to United although it was already clear by then that Tom Hicks, like Peter Swales, was all piss and wind. You didn't fall anywhere near as far as we did but there must have been plenty of times you must have thought the same as many City fans thought at places like Sincil Bank and Bootham Crescent. So I can quite easily imaguine how Liverpool fans feel.

Offline Phil M

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Re: Manchester City
« Reply #5599 on: August 2, 2013, 01:26:23 am »
Everytime I've watched a match at the Allianz Arena I've been completely unimpressed with the atmosphere.

It's a preseason friendly what do you expect?
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.