Author Topic: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation  (Read 589785 times)

Offline Penfold78

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13200 on: April 28, 2024, 08:35:30 am »
Have you ever left a job and tried to work a longer-term notice? Even if you have all the best intentions of seeing the big project through, doing a good handover for the new person in your role, etc, and some point you really stop caring. Their future is not your future any more, and your work motivation will drop. Maybe something a bit similar is going on, maybe not even with Klopp himself, but a lot of the coaches are also leaving. And there could be some sort of mirror effect on the players - why buy into everything your boss says, if he's not going to be your boss for much longer.

Completely agree with this. It’s a simple situation. The one man who binds the club together, including players and backroom staff, announces his imminent departure. The simple laws of human relationships dictate that the influence he has on everything starts to wane from that point onwards. He’s run out of steam, he’s no longer the owner of the plan. Brilliant though he is (we need to keep remembering the 4-3 vs Barcelona during times like this), the guy has run out of emotional energy and is now lacking buy-in from his players unless he gives them half time rollickings.

As for Slott. I know it is my duty to support the club passionately and wholeheartedly whatever the circumstances and I’ll continue to do that, but within the four walls of this forum I’m pretty sure he’s here because no bigger name wanted to inherit the very large shoes that Klopp is leaving behind. It’s too much of a risk for the already established managerial elite. In this specific scenario their reputation can only be diminished by the move (if it goes wrong) or maintained (if it goes well). Only someone who is in their development stage will see the LFC job as a sensible opportunity right now. Good luck to him but unless he can win over some rather fatigued players, most of who only moved here cos of Klopp, I fear it won’t end well. I suspect a lot of the older bigger name transfers of recent years will move on or disappear down the pecking order as Slott focuses on getting the youngsters to buy in to him. I think next years line up will look more like our injury hit League Cup win than the sides we played against Palace and West Ham.

Offline Funkster

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13201 on: April 28, 2024, 09:11:27 am »
Completely agree with this. It’s a simple situation. The one man who binds the club together, including players and backroom staff, announces his imminent departure. The simple laws of human relationships dictate that the influence he has on everything starts to wane from that point onwards. He’s run out of steam, he’s no longer the owner of the plan. Brilliant though he is (we need to keep remembering the 4-3 vs Barcelona during times like this), the guy has run out of emotional energy and is now lacking buy-in from his players unless he gives them half time rollickings.

As for Slott. I know it is my duty to support the club passionately and wholeheartedly whatever the circumstances and I’ll continue to do that, but within the four walls of this forum I’m pretty sure he’s here because no bigger name wanted to inherit the very large shoes that Klopp is leaving behind. It’s too much of a risk for the already established managerial elite. In this specific scenario their reputation can only be diminished by the move (if it goes wrong) or maintained (if it goes well). Only someone who is in their development stage will see the LFC job as a sensible opportunity right now. Good luck to him but unless he can win over some rather fatigued players, most of who only moved here cos of Klopp, I fear it won’t end well. I suspect a lot of the older bigger name transfers of recent years will move on or disappear down the pecking order as Slott focuses on getting the youngsters to buy in to him. I think next years line up will look more like our injury hit League Cup win than the sides we played against Palace and West Ham.

Like who exactly??
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Offline Caps4444

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13202 on: April 28, 2024, 09:14:30 am »
Do you think the new manager won't meet with prospective new players and have to/try to convince them to join us?

VVD comes to us because of Klopp, if it was Brendan ( just as an example) he would have gone to City.
Manager makes a massive difference for a top top player.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13203 on: April 28, 2024, 09:17:20 am »
VVD comes to us because of Klopp, if it was Brendan ( just as an example) he would have gone to City.
Manager makes a massive difference for a top top player.

True but who’s to say Slot can’t have the same pulling power soon enough
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 09:35:53 am by rocco »

Offline rocco

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13204 on: April 28, 2024, 09:20:42 am »
I know quite a few Arsenal fans, they’re always very happy to remind me that their recent surge is down to Arteta and Edu. They never talk about power and final say, instead saying that the chemistry/harmony there means nobody talks about it in that way.

Guardiola had the Barcelona lot in at City years before he got there, there’s no doubting he has power there, but he isn’t running CFG and again, it’s as much about the balance of power there as it is just one single man calling the shots.

The point is, every great club has a structure, you’re trying to suggest a structure cannot function if the manager isn’t the dominant figure in terms of decisions and voting power. I’d suggest that at most successful clubs this sort of stuff becomes irrelevant because they’re aligned on all levels. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how you remain aligned on all levels, usually being pretty grown up and transparent goes a long way.

I think pretty much every big club in the world operates in a way where the structure is responsible for strategy and the manager is responsible for coaching and preparing the team. You don’t see Real Madrid giving Ancelotti final say on everything, do you? Nor do you see it with Barcelona. You keep saying Emery brought in Monchi to Aston Villa, Monchi has been a Sporting Director for over 20 years, he’s joined Aston Villa as president of sporting operations, then they have Damian Vidagny as their Director of Football. Monchi brought Emery in at Seville and worked above him. They all work together and I almost guarantee nobody will be talking about who has final say, who has the most power etc there because the dynamic has already been successful in Seville, it isn’t a talking point unless you’re intentionally looking to create one by insisting there is division or that there’s no way a top club can operate with a ‘head coach’ instead of a manager.

Lastly, I’ll put this in again but it was from an Athletic article on Edwards after we’d just won the league in 2020:

I don’t see why that will change under Hughes/Slot. And if Arne is happy to come here under that premise and prove he’s ready to earn the additional responsibility, we should all be happy too and hope that our faith’s rewarded.

Interesting reading…..and I mostly agree and hope the bold part is true but Edwards has a lot more power now than then  in regards the Athletic article on Edwards after we’d just won the league in 2020

Offline Zlen

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13205 on: April 28, 2024, 09:24:06 am »
Reducing the workload, responsibility and focussing the manager's role is the best thing we can do now. Especially as the manager taking over is a relative rookie, like most who were on our shortlist. You simply need to look at Manchester United and their sequence of appointments where they welcomed each and every one as a saviour and gave them exactly the players they wanted. They are now left with a weird mix of players suited to different styles - or different careers in Antony's case. For us, immediate post-Klopp aim should be consolidation. Don't lose what we have - which is Champions League spot and build on that. This is why we went for a manager who won't uproot the established playing style and also why we are implementing s structure that will offer additional resilience to managerial replacement, should it come to that.

I don't see this as an immediate issue in any way. Where it might become an issue is if in the future we look to hire a new manager and the best candidate does not want to work in this structure or is looking for additional power. This is where egos come into play and where LFC might suffer as the result.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13206 on: April 28, 2024, 09:24:18 am »
Personally,  I prefer the head coach stuff. Let the experts determine the players that are the best fits for us in terms of price and quality.

Managers simply don't have enough time which leads to suboptimal decisions like renewing declining lder players' contract, signing players because they play well against us...

Jurgen said he was exhausted by the responsibility and streamlining the new manager's job would help.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13207 on: April 28, 2024, 09:31:37 am »
Like who exactly??

Precisely. I understand the theory but the managerial cupboard is rather bare at this time. All the top managers are in jobs. Amorim didn't work out for whatever reason, Alonso decided to stay at Leverkusen which I actually think is smart and decent from him to carry on the phenomenal work and have a crack at defending the title and having a go in the Champions League.

Slot fits the model in terms of data and style and his approach with his players is clearly another green tick. He's young, confident enough to take the job and he will know more than anyone he's following a legend in Klopp. But his appointment could be a masterstroke and we have to trust Edwards and his team that they've got it right. They've got more than enough credit in the bank.

I like the cut of his jib from what I see. Hopefully he gets time, his ideas get implemented quickly and a few new signings add a needed freshness to the team and squad.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13208 on: April 28, 2024, 09:34:23 am »
Dear Lord, if we don't win every single game first few months FSGout lads will be back with the vengeance...I don't miss those days at all.

Offline [new username under construction]

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13209 on: April 28, 2024, 09:36:28 am »
Dear Lord, if we don't win every single game first few months FSGout lads will be back with the vengeance...I don't miss those days at all.

As long FSG are not tight asses and we get a few in there shouldn't be a big problem

Offline rocco

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13210 on: April 28, 2024, 09:37:36 am »
Dear Lord, if we don't win every single game first few months FSGout lads will be back with the vengeance...I don't miss those days at all.
Didnt everyone want Edwards back…………

 ( Klopp ????)

Offline Redbonnie

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13211 on: April 28, 2024, 09:39:17 am »
Surely this is also the flaw in the all powerful manager model?  For all their success, United have spent a huge amount of money and time trying to find the the next Busby or the next Ferguson.  18 of their 20 league titles and all their European Cups have been won by just 2 managers!  Everything goes tits up when the glorious reign comes to an end.  No continuity.

Txiki Bgiristain was DoF at Barcelona and now City.  He hires the coaches and players to suit the style of play he decided on i.e principles of Cruyff.  When Guardiola goes he will find a coach compatible with the way they play.  Since he and Pep are completely on the same page and have worked together for so long Pep does actually get a say in identifying transfer targets.  Pellegrini didn't and the next City coach won't.  It will probably someone we haven't heard of from Barcelona B!

That’s a good point re United, my concerns however are

1)  Would we attract top talent like Alonso if they can’t pick their own players?
2) Where does innovation happen if we are buying players who suit our style of play? Klopp has gone but we will be playing his type of football ad infinitum ? Liverpool played the boot room way for years, pass and move. In the nineties Ferguson brought in a new style with his fast wingers and aggressive pressing. We had to adapt.
3) What is the record of those picking the players? Are they good at it.

Of all clubs Liverpools culture is manager over team. He is the leader of  a city not just a club. The manager not picking the players is changing a fundamental part of our DNA.


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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13212 on: April 28, 2024, 09:41:08 am »
Am I just being weird here, surely the coach would say, I need a right winger, the crew would bugger off and find a list of say five and the manager would pick the player?

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13213 on: April 28, 2024, 09:42:19 am »
Like many here, have tried to convince myself that this new era is going to be amazing because our owners would never do the wrong thing or make a mistake. My mind though is changing daily ...

The boss knew the club would need to find a replacement swiftly, but perhaps, at least judging by his reaction yesterday, the manner and means of doing so have not impressed Klopp whatsoever. Didn't seem at all impressed by the news himself and can see why. While it has not been dragged out too long, the process smacked of cheap sideshow to an important end of season run, in which we have now spectacularly imploded.

The usual cheap ass budget will re-surface and will leave the same old problems, like not plugging obvious gaps, if previous history tells us anything.

We've imploded for a month now.

We were living on our luck and the momentum of coming from behind to win every week, last minute winners. Once we lost the momentum over the two United games we couldn't get it back and collapsed.

Atalanta and Palace games were a team shellshocked and crippled by fear and we were out of Europe and the title race over those few days. Ultimately Klopp is hurting as we won't get the title or European trophy to sign off, but we knew that after those two games.

There was never any belief we could win away at Fulham, Everton and West Ham in the space of 6 days. The consensus was we'd do well to win 2.

Ideally, the manager announcement could wait a month, but it was always going to leak and we needed to get it sorted given numerous top clubs will be looking for managers this summer in a weak field.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13214 on: April 28, 2024, 09:46:26 am »
Personally,  I prefer the head coach stuff. Let the experts determine the players that are the best fits for us in terms of price and quality.

Managers simply don't have enough time which leads to suboptimal decisions like renewing declining lder players' contract, signing players because they play well against us...

Jurgen said he was exhausted by the responsibility and streamlining the new manager's job would help.
I agree with this and some of the players Klopp was told to get instead of his choices was a good thing (Mane over Götze, Salah over Brandt).

I do hope there is some form of relationship between Slot and Hughes with regards to positions and players we buy though. Al brought up a good list of players who were signed during Rodgers time here who I don't believe for a second he wanted.

Take the recent links to Geertruida. He looks like a good young player who is versatile and has one year left on his contract in the summer. Do we need a player in that position though? I think the fact he is at Feyenoord already is just a coincidence.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 09:58:41 am by Agent99 »

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13215 on: April 28, 2024, 09:47:15 am »
That’s a good point re United, my concerns however are

1)  Would we attract top talent like Alonso if they can’t pick their own players?
2) Where does innovation happen if we are buying players who suit our style of play? Klopp has gone but we will be playing his type of football ad infinitum ? Liverpool played the boot room way for years, pass and move. In the nineties Ferguson brought in a new style with his fast wingers and aggressive pressing. We had to adapt.
3) What is the record of those picking the players? Are they good at it.

Of all clubs Liverpools culture is manager over team. He is the leader of  a city not just a club. The manager not picking the players is changing a fundamental part of our DNA.



You do, but you do it gradually. I keep thinking of a qualification I gained, its related to rewriting IT systems and the basics are start from where you are, don't throw it all away and try to start again when you have a solid base and change things that need changing but don't try to do it all at once. That's how the club are working, they're sticking with what works, but are making tweaks to improve things for the benefit of the club. Klopp said it all got too much for him, thinking of next seasons signings while trying to do pre season, stuff like that.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13216 on: April 28, 2024, 09:50:26 am »
VVD comes to us because of Klopp, if it was Brendan ( just as an example) he would have gone to City.
Manager makes a massive difference for a top top player.

What about the players we missed out on for other clubs (Chelsea) while Klopp was manager - maybe not as clear cut as you think.

Offline StevoHimself

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13217 on: April 28, 2024, 09:53:03 am »
Personally,  I prefer the head coach stuff. Let the experts determine the players that are the best fits for us in terms of price and quality.

Managers simply don't have enough time which leads to suboptimal decisions like renewing declining lder players' contract, signing players because they play well against us...

Jurgen said he was exhausted by the responsibility and streamlining the new manager's job would help.

You'd like to think another benefit of having a coach who is going to be less involved with transfers is that you won't necessarily have that year or two where the new man decides who he likes in the squad and who he doesn't, before deciding where we need to strengthen. Not to say we'll go crazy immediately, but it'll be interesting to see how the fellas behind the scenes assess the current squad and where improvements can be made.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13218 on: April 28, 2024, 09:54:30 am »
Personally,  I prefer the head coach stuff. Let the experts determine the players that are the best fits for us in terms of price and quality.

Managers simply don't have enough time which leads to suboptimal decisions like renewing declining lder players' contract, signing players because they play well against us...

Jurgen said he was exhausted by the responsibility and streamlining the new manager's job would help.

Exactly this. The manager/head coach can have discussions with the SD/DoF about what players are needed, and might even make suggestions of names to look at, but the amount of work that we put into identifying the right players at the right price wouldn't be possible to oversee while also managing the team from game to game.

I get Al's reservations about how the set-up works at other clubs like Chelsea but I would suggest the problems they have is down to poor decisions made within the system, not the system itself - there is no consistency in philosophy from one manager to the next.

Again, the problems with Rodgers were surely down to his ego and refusal to work within the system, not the system itself. It's essential that the head coach and sporting director work harmoniously with mutual support. We never really had that with Rodgers, did we?

Remains to be seen how Hughes and Slot work together. Let's not prejudge it based on no evidence.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13219 on: April 28, 2024, 09:58:41 am »
What about the players we missed out on for other clubs (Chelsea) while Klopp was manager - maybe not as clear cut as you think.

Most players will go where the money is, that's the reality. Chelsea offering daft wages on long contracts.

It's when you're broadly offering the same terms as other clubs that the player's decision will be determined by other factors.

Rodgers was a salesman but he struggled to sell the club to anyone. Having a joker like Ayre doing the deals as well didn't help. Always seemed in that banter era that we could only sign a player if we had a clear run on him. Let's face it, we only got Milner in because we offered him a very lucrative contract, above and beyond what even City were offering him to stay, while promising him a prominent role in the team.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 10:00:27 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13220 on: April 28, 2024, 10:00:19 am »
Exactly this. The manager/head coach can have discussions with the SD/DoF about what players are needed, and might even make suggestions of names to look at, but the amount of work that we put into identifying the right players at the right price wouldn't be possible to oversee while also managing the team from game to game.

I get Al's reservations about how the set-up works at other clubs like Chelsea but I would suggest the problems they have is down to poor decisions made within the system, not the system itself - there is no consistency in philosophy from one manager to the next.

Again, the problems with Rodgers were surely down to his ego and refusal to work within the system, not the system itself. It's essential that the head coach and sporting director work harmoniously with mutual support. We never really had that with Rodgers, did we?

Remains to be seen how Hughes and Slot work together. Let's not prejudge it based on no evidence.
Managers don't have time and emotions come into play.

They tend to prefer players from leagues they are familiar with. Look at Ten Hag for example. Rafa focused on Spanish players and Jurgen wanted Brandt over Mo. Gérard signed some players from Ligue 1.

We want the best players and the analysts are in the best position to pinpoint them. It also helps that they are not emotional in their decision making.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 10:05:05 am by MonsLibpool »

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13221 on: April 28, 2024, 10:03:25 am »
I think our data team got very little wrong with regard to recruitment when their powers were at their peak. Keita? But even that went wrong because of repeated injuries and those injuries weren't present at the time he was purchased. When the data team's powers regressed with Klopp gaining more and more influence, Edwards and Ward left. Since they left I think we have been gambling more and more with blank slates with a lower floor but a higher ceiling. The trouble with that is you have to do more coaching to get them to the finished article. Mane, Salah, Firmino, Gini, VVD, Allison, were all further along in their development.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 10:43:04 am by spider-neil »

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13222 on: April 28, 2024, 10:14:56 am »
Managers don't have time and emotions come into play.

They tend to prefer players from leagues they are familiar with. Look at Ten Hag for example. Rafa focused on Spanish players and Jurgen wanted Brandt over Mo. Gérard signed some players from Ligue 1.

We want the best players and the analysts are in the best position to pinpoint them. It also helps that they are not emotional in their decision making.

You would hope that analysts at least look at any players suggested by the manager. And then explain to the manager why that player might not be considered. And the manager will respect that they have done their homework and accept their findings. All part of having a harmonious relationship.

I don't believe sporting directors or even the data nerds are entirely immune from emotion and personal bias affecting their decisions but it's good to have a system that has built-in checks and balances to minimise the impact of emotion-based decision-making.

And yes, of course - Antony and Onana are perfect examples to support the argument against letting the manager have total control over transfers.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13223 on: April 28, 2024, 10:33:01 am »
Yes Jurgen helped get us VVD, but that was 6 years ago, we were a club in the CL for only the 2nd time in a decade. This is a different club, one that has played for and won the big trophies, not just a big name with a glorious history.

Will we miss out on elite players because we don't have quite the same pull without Jurgen? No doubt we will, but then again we missed out on Tchouameni and Bellingham in the last 2 years so we have to accept that there are still bigger fish than us.

I don't think we actually need that type of elite player that everyone wants in order to improve us. We have to look for our new Fabinho, the new Salah the ones that we bought with very little competition.

Like it or not, this is the structure we are going for. It is closer to what we had in 17-19 and as long as they can work together it will work for us. The only time it doesn't work is if the coach is not good enough (hint he goes) or does not want to work in the system (e.g  Rodgers).
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Offline Hestoic

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13224 on: April 28, 2024, 10:37:52 am »
I think our data team got very little wrong with regard to recruitment when their powers were at their peak. Keita? But even that went would because of repeated injuries and those injuries weren't present at the time he was sold. When the data team's powers regressed with Klopp gaining more and more influence, Edwards and Ward left. Since they left I think we have been gambling more and more with blank slates with a lower floor but a higher ceiling. The trouble with that is you have to do more coaching to get them to the finished article. Mane, Salah, Firmino, Gini, VVD, Allison, were all further along in their development.

Agree with this. We haven't replaced Mane and Firmino and I'm happy Edwards is back.

Offline PaulKS

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13225 on: April 28, 2024, 10:40:29 am »
True but who’s to say Slot can’t have the same pulling power soon enough

Because nobody had heard of him until about 4 days ago

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13226 on: April 28, 2024, 10:47:44 am »
Because nobody had heard of him until about 4 days ago

Only ignorant football fans, most pundits/presenters and probably a few ex players or managers but those in and around the game at the highest level will most certainly have heard of him.

Offline kop306

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13227 on: April 28, 2024, 10:48:13 am »
time will tell whether slot can attract the big name players

slot has my full backing as he hasnt even managed a game for us yet

you cant judge any player or manager until they have starting working for the club

if any player wants to leave the club , let them leave , lfc only works if you have 100% commited players


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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13228 on: April 28, 2024, 10:49:29 am »
Can we go a step further and let the analysts pick the team as well?

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13229 on: April 28, 2024, 11:06:41 am »
Am I just being weird here, surely the coach would say, I need a right winger, the crew would bugger off and find a list of say five and the manager would pick the player?

That’s obviously the very top line way of looking at it, I imagine the entire approach is done much more collaboratively.

The club will have people consistently reviewing everything: key performance metrics for each position/player; data science; fitness performance; levels in training; athleticism and many other things. We’ll keep tabs on all of this throughout a season and anecdotal input will be added from the manager and coaching staff, things like the intangibles and day to day stuff. There will come a point in each season (I imagine it’s probably just passed at the last international break) where a lot of this is evaluated and we begin to shape our summer activity. The manager might well say “I want this” but I imagine it will be much more evidence-based and the club will look to use things that are factual as well as subjective. That’s why you probably get Edwards saying “Henderson’s coming to the end” and then Klopp pushing the things like intangibles and subjective stuff. They can be very delicate situations where both sides are right. I can only imagine the data the club uses was really strong for Edwards to react as strongly as he did.

From what I’ve read/heard about how the club operates with transfers, once they’ve decided on a position to recruit for, we tend to have a score-based system with varying different metrics on, the relevant departments/people involved will have their input and try to come to a unanimous agreement on which player to move forward with. That doesn’t mean it will always be the data team or the coaching staff that make the ultimate call, but given Jurgen’s base of power has increased every year, it seems he was given more of a dominant vote on transfers than what he initially had during the peak Edwards years. If you’re to believe the social media eggs, Lijnders became more and more involved in this process and he alongside Jurgen gave the coaching staff a greater say than at any point before 2021/22.

I don’t for one minute believe that there will be a world where Slot is asking for a table and they give him a lampshade. Modern players (particularly the level we aim for) are becoming more and more demanding, they want to hear a manager’s plan for them in the side and the ambitions of the club. Slot will be important for communicating this during discussions before a player joins, so he will definitely have an input, it may just be more of a “are you on board with this?” rather than a “do you want to lead on this?” If that makes any sense.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13230 on: April 28, 2024, 11:08:09 am »
I really don't see the problem in handing transfers and recruitment to the DoF entirely.

The coaching team being given more responsibilities over transfers since our league title win has hardly improved us. In general, managers getting in on the act of signing their preferred players produces more duff signings than success these days. Look at Man Utd and Ten Hag, and West Ham with Moyes (whose best players have all been DoF signings).





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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13231 on: April 28, 2024, 11:09:51 am »
I really don't see the problem in handing transfers and recruitment to the DoF entirely.

The coaching team being given more responsibilities over transfers since our league title win has hardly improved us. In general, managers getting in on the act of signing their preferred players produces more duff signings than success these days. Look at Man Utd and Ten Hag, and West Ham with Moyes (whose best players have all been DoF signings).

It won’t be, anyone indicating Slot will have players pushed on to him is talking shit and has an agenda.

We’re go back to the model before Edward’s left and eventually Klopp took more responsibility, which is good because it burn Klopp out.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13232 on: April 28, 2024, 11:11:30 am »
Can we go a step further and let the analysts pick the team as well?

We should win every game on paper then,can't wait for the theoretically all conquering nerd formula for winning to be in place.  ;)

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13233 on: April 28, 2024, 11:17:04 am »
That is a massive seachange, previously Klopp worked alongside the SD and reported to Gordon an owner.
You say this like it's a bad thing Al.

I'd be infinitely more concerned if we're giving someone like Slot the keys to the kingdom. This way, it means he's instantly and painlessly replaceable with little collateral damage if he doesn't get results on the pitch. I think FSG fully realise Klopp was a one-off.
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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13234 on: April 28, 2024, 11:20:32 am »
That’s obviously the very top line way of looking at it, I imagine the entire approach is done much more collaboratively.

The club will have people consistently reviewing everything: key performance metrics for each position/player; data science; fitness performance; levels in training; athleticism and many other things. We’ll keep tabs on all of this throughout a season and anecdotal input will be added from the manager and coaching staff, things like the intangibles and day to day stuff. There will come a point in each season (I imagine it’s probably just passed at the last international break) where a lot of this is evaluated and we begin to shape our summer activity. The manager might well say “I want this” but I imagine it will be much more evidence-based and the club will look to use things that are factual as well as subjective. That’s why you probably get Edwards saying “Henderson’s coming to the end” and then Klopp pushing the things like intangibles and subjective stuff. They can be very delicate situations where both sides are right. I can only imagine the data the club uses was really strong for Edwards to react as strongly as he did.

From what I’ve read/heard about how the club operates with transfers, once they’ve decided on a position to recruit for, we tend to have a score-based system with varying different metrics on, the relevant departments/people involved will have their input and try to come to a unanimous agreement on which player to move forward with. That doesn’t mean it will always be the data team or the coaching staff that make the ultimate call, but given Jurgen’s base of power has increased every year, it seems he was given more of a dominant vote on transfers than what he initially had during the peak Edwards years. If you’re to believe the social media eggs, Lijnders became more and more involved in this process and he alongside Jurgen gave the coaching staff a greater say than at any point before 2021/22.

I don’t for one minute believe that there will be a world where Slot is asking for a table and they give him a lampshade. Modern players (particularly the level we aim for) are becoming more and more demanding, they want to hear a manager’s plan for them in the side and the ambitions of the club. Slot will be important for communicating this during discussions before a player joins, so he will definitely have an input, it may just be more of a “are you on board with this?” rather than a “do you want to lead on this?” If that makes any sense.

This is an insightful post, thanks.

Does the title of 'Head Coach' suggest the manager's responsibilities in recruitment will be severely curtailed, or is it more or less the same structure that Klopp worked under in his first few years (players recommended by Edwards such as Salah, Mane, etc)? It could merely be a ploy by FSG to eradicate all ambiguity and avoid similar scenarios to Rodgers and Klopp eventually having more power (which hasn't been to the benefit of the club).

Or perhaps it offers greater authority. Beforehand it might have been a shortlist of options for one position, with Edwards and Klopp debating the merits and coming to an agreement (that's how I saw it). Perhaps the new strategy will be more authoritative and see Edwards and co honing in on the one player whose metrics come out top in the data, regardless of the managers opinion on others in the shortlist.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13235 on: April 28, 2024, 11:25:06 am »
This is a horrible window into the next few years isn’t it? …. If we don’t win the lot they’ll be endless press briefings about who signed who, who wanted who etc etc etc

The only way for it to be avoided is that Hughes MUST be a public figure whose accountable for recruitment decisions
If that’s what it says on the job spec then Slot can’t be the one in the firing line for it

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13236 on: April 28, 2024, 11:29:03 am »
Think it was this thread (jumping about a lot) that spoke of Ferguson, Wenger and Klopp and the power they wielded by the end of their time at their respective clubs. But they didn’t start off with that much control. That came about by the success they gave and gradually took on more and more responsibility. When Ferguson and Wenger left (different circumstances as Wenger had already dropped off a bit) you could tell it would be difficult to replace such strong personalities and a drop off felt inevitable.

From the outside, people will be expecting ring the same thing with us once Klopp leaves. As said above, I think changing the structure does probably take some pressure of Slot, while also making him more replaceable if things don’t go well.

If everything goes as well as Edwards and co hope then we have an impressive young coach, a decent squad with room for improvement and can probably hold our own on the mind of level we’re at now. Obviously there’s potential for things to drop off a level too. Everything is a bit uncertain.

The only club who are geared to chopping and changing manager/head coach and not having a drop off have been Chelsea. Although their last few years have been fairly barren. But they could previously change a coach and not seemingly have a proof of rebuilding. For the clubs who have had an all powerful manager it’s not been that easy. It’s a double edged sword. When they’re that successful, why wouldn’t you give them more control. But that just seems to make the drop when they leave more daunting.

That’s a lot of waffle really to say, let’s see what happens. :D I think I’m generally quite pragmatic. While I always hope for the best I think it’s fair to say Klopp had us over achieving and a failure to keep doing so shouldn’t really pinned on any new manager unless he’s a twat like Hodgson. But at the same time a new man, new ideas, hopefully backed with some new signings, that all feels potentially exciting too.

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13237 on: April 28, 2024, 11:31:36 am »
time will tell whether slot can attract the big name players

slot has my full backing as he hasnt even managed a game for us yet

you cant judge any player or manager until they have starting working for the club

if any player wants to leave the club , let them leave , lfc only works if you have 100% commited players

We signed Luis Suarez with a temporary manager and no CL football. It's up to the club to identify the right players and sell the vision.

The odd player might ignore a better offer somewhere else but we couldn't sell the club to Caicedo or Lavia over Chelsea last summer or Tchouameni or Bellingham in the year before even with Klopp.

The club can attract very good players, but we've never been at the top of the food chain in the transfer market, whether in terms of budget or pulling power (how many ready made world class players in their 20s have we signed over the years?) In 2019 with 97 poiints and a CL title, we were at our peak in terms of pulling power, yet chose not to sign anybody.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 11:34:14 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13238 on: April 28, 2024, 11:34:37 am »
This is a horrible window into the next few years isn’t it? …. If we don’t win the lot they’ll be endless press briefings about who signed who, who wanted who etc etc etc

The only way for it to be avoided is that Hughes MUST be a public figure whose accountable for recruitment decisions
If that’s what it says on the job spec then Slot can’t be the one in the firing line for it

I think the set up (with Slot as head coach not manager) mean that nobody is going to think a player is a
Slot signing’ in the same way that some players were clearly advocated by Rodgers or Klopp.

Just looking at how Bournemouth have done it recently, when they sign someone the manager isn’t quoted in the signing announcements, isn’t in the pics etc. It’s not Hughes either, but their chief exec - could be similar here with Hughes/Edwards ‘owning’ the signings as they should.

In terms of attracting players, if Slot is successful then he’ll grow a reputation which will help. But otherwise, we’re a strong top 4 side with CL football and pay high wages - if clubs like Newcastle or West Ham can sign the likes of Guimaraes, Isak, Kudus, Paqueta etc while being out the top six then we’ll be just fine when it comes to attracting talent. Also, young players will have spent years seeing us consistently challenge and win in the PL and Champions Lesgue… they’ll have seen what European nights look like at Anfield. They’ll be keen whether Klopp is here or not. If Rodgers had succeeded a period of colossal success then he’d have found it easier to attract players too.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 11:37:47 am by Barefoot Doctor »

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Re: LFC's next manager - chat and informed speculation
« Reply #13239 on: April 28, 2024, 11:39:32 am »
I think the set up (with Slot as head coach not manager) mean that nobody is going to think a player is a
Slot signing’ in the same way that some players were clearly advocated by Rodgers or Klopp.

Just looking at how Bournemouth have done it recently, when they sign someone the manager isn’t quoted in the signing announcements, isn’t in the pics etc. It’s not Hughes either, but their chief exec - could be similar here with Hughes/Edwards ‘owning’ the signings as they should.

The transfer committee under Rodgers was a total mess. The structure of Edwards/Klopp/Gordon in building a title/CL winning team (2016-18) was first rate.

It's up to the individuals and the collective to make it work. Rodgers was awkward from the start and didn't buy into the structure FSG wanted - that's ultimately on them for hiring him. Slot knows the deal going in which is an automatic improvement on that. Key is the right players getting recruited. It ended up Mane and Salah over Brandt and Goetze with the same structure that we'll have now. That's not to say it will work, but it shows it can. Leaving a manager to sign players these days is the wrong way to go about it, on the whole. It needs to be more data and character led, than spending club record fees because a lad looked good at Anfield once, or just wanting players you've worked with before.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 11:41:16 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season