Topic: Vatican letter told Ireland's Catholic bishops not to report child abuse

[Corkboy]

Vatican ‘sought deal’ with Irish State to bury church documents

[classycarra]

"A great bunch o lads"

[So… Howard Philips]

"A great bunch o lads"

The Catholic Church stepped into the vacuum created in the Republic when the British left.

[classycarra]

The Catholic Church stepped into the vacuum created in the Republic when the British left.

You think the catholic church have been c*nts in Ireland for that short an amount of time?

It's insidiousness hasn't required power vacuums in a great number of other countries

[Zeb]

New York Times, obviously more grim detail on the link.

Bishops and other leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania covered up child sexual abuse by more than 300 priests over a period of 70 years, persuading victims not to report the abuse and police officers not to investigate it, according to a report issued by a grand jury on Tuesday.

The report, which covered six of the state’s eight Catholic dioceses and found more than 1,000 identifiable victims, is the broadest examination yet by a government agency in the United States of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. There have been ten previous reports by grand juries and attorneys general in the United States, according to the research and advocacy group BishopAccountability.org, but those examined single dioceses or counties.

The report catalogs horrific instances of abuse, including a priest who raped a young girl in the hospital after she had her tonsils out, and another priest who was allowed to stay in ministry after impregnating a 17-year-old girl, forging a signature on a marriage certificate and then divorcing the girl.

“Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all. For decades.”

The grand jury added that the church officials named in their report have been protected, and some have been promoted. “Until that changes, we think it is too early to close the book on the Catholic Church sex scandal,” the jury wrote.

The report said that church officials followed a “playbook for concealing the truth:” minimize the abuse using words like “inappropriate contact” instead of “rape”; assign priests untrained in sexual abuse cases to investigate their colleagues; when removing an accused priest, don’t inform the community of the real reasons.

“Tell his parishioners that he is on ‘sick leave,’ or suffering from ‘nervous exhaustion.’ Or say nothing at all,” the report said.

Attorney General Josh Shapiro, whose office conducted the investigation, said in a news conference, “They protected their institution at all costs. As the grand jury found, the church showed a complete disdain for victims.”

Victims expressed relief that the Attorney General Josh Shapiro and his agents had conducted the investigation, after the victims’ efforts to get church officials to take action went nowhere.

[Ray K]

Satan Refuses To Accept Any More Catholic Priests In Hell

NINTH CIRCLE, HELL—Stressing that the situation in the underworld was quickly spiraling out of control, Satan, the Great Tempter and Father of Lies, announced Wednesday that he would not allow any more Catholic priests to enter hell. “This place is completely overrun with those monsters, and frankly, they kind of creep me out,” said the Prince of Darkness, adding that every time he looked up, he saw another recently deceased member of the Roman Catholic clergy being cast down into the fires of hell, where each is expected to be tortured until the end of time by Satan and his minions. “We’re used to having every manner of unrepentant sinner down here, but those guys are beyond messed up. I swear, if I see one more of those sick bastards, I’m going to throw myself into the eternal flames.”
In response, God has reportedly instituted a secret policy whereby the priests would no longer face damnation but would instead attend mandatory counseling sessions and then be quietly transferred into heaven

The Onion, obvs

[soxfan]

Here's a perfect example of how this was allowed to continue.

"Following a letter from Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò that said Pope Francis knew of the coverup of sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church, had given comfort to a “homosexual current” in the Vatican, and should therefore resign, Providence Bishop Thomas J. Tobin has called for the pope to be investigated."

Ok fine, glad to see our local church leaders responding to the crisis. But.....wait a minute.....hold on.....

During his earlier years in Pittsburgh, Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas J. Tobin acknowledges he “became aware of incidents of sexual abuse when they were reported to the diocese.”

But in response Tuesday to questions posed earlier about what he knew, when he knew it — and what he did about it, the Providence-based bishop says these allegations were outside his realm of responsibility.

Between 1992 and 1996, Tobin served as auxiliary bishop of Pittsburgh, one of six Pennsylvania dioceses covered in a scathing grand jury report on the cover-up by Catholic Church officials in Pennsylvania of decades of child abuse by more than 300 priests. The grand jury found more than 1,000 identifiable victims of sexual abuse by priests.

“My responsibilities as Vicar General and General Secretary of the diocese did not include clergy assignments or clergy misconduct, but rather other administrative duties such as budgets, property, diocesan staff, working with consultative groups, etc. Even as an auxiliary bishop, I was not primarily responsible for clergy issues,″ Tobin said in an email to The Providence Journal.

So he knew of incidents, but kept his mouth shut because it wasn't in his job description?? So people kept getting abused because enablers like him just stood by and let it happen. Disgusting. And he's in no danger of losing his position.  

[Corkboy]

Vatican No. 3 Cardinal George Pell Convicted on Charges He Sexually Abused Choir Boys

The Vatican’s third most powerful official has been convicted in Australia on all charges he sexually abused two choir boys there in the late '90s, according to two sources with knowledge of the case.

A unanimous jury returned its verdict for Cardinal George Pell on Tuesday (Australian time) after more than three days of deliberations, the sources said, in a trial conducted under a gag order by the judge that prevented any details of the trial being made public.

Pell, the Vatican’s finance chief and the highest Vatican official to ever go on trial for sex abuse, left Rome in June 2017 to stand trial in Melbourne.

As that trial was about to get underway in June, a judge placed a suppression order on all press coverage in Australia, according to the order reviewed by The Daily Beast. Prosecutors applied for the order and it was granted to “prevent a real and substantial risk of prejudice to the proper administration of justice.” That order remains in place in Australia.

That trial, known as “the cathedral trial,” was declared a mistrial earlier this year after a hung jury, the sources say. A retrial began immediately and ended this week with the unanimous verdict.

In a book published last year, journalist Louise Milligan reportedly wrote that Pell was accused by two former choir boys of sexual abuse while he was archbishop of Melbourne in the '90s. The boys sang in the choir at St. Patrick's cathedral and were allegedly abused by Pell in a room in the confines of the church. Pell’s office told The Guardian in 2017 he “repeats his vehement and consistent denials of any and all such accusations.”

A second trial known as “the swimmers trial” is due to get underway early next year, according to sources familiar with the case. That trial is expected to hear evidence that Pell “sexually offended” two men when they were boys playing games in a swimming pool in Ballarat, Victoria. At the time of the allegations, which date back to the '70s when Pell was a priest in the area, according to The Guardian.

[So… Howard Philips]

Don't know if it's been mentioned before but the PBS documentary Mea Maxima Culpa:Silence in the House of God is on the Documentary channel on Friday night and available on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3eYGt-ECCc

[thejbs]

What school allows kids to wear political hats on a school trip? Where was the supervision?

The kind that thinks attending a 'pro-life' political rally is school trip.

[Caligula?]

There's four of them. Another extreme left and a fourth above centre right.  Utter scum.  If they're really Catholic then somebody should remind them what colour Jesus was.

The key takeaway here is in the word "Catholic." The smiling lad with the MAGA hat on has definitely had a priest's hands down his pants at some point or another in the past.

[Giono]

The kind that thinks attending a 'pro-life' political rally is school trip.

Exactly. They love his judges.

[Red Beret]

The key takeaway here is in the word "Catholic." The smiling lad with the MAGA hat on has definitely had a priest's hands down his pants at some point or another in the past.

Not every Catholic has been fiddled with you know.

[thejbs]

Not every Catholic has been fiddled with you know.

They tried their best though.

[Giono]

They tried their best though.

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

[Mimi]

Trump caved as expected on SOTU. Only a matter of time before he caves on the shutdown. Shutdown could be over tomorrow if Mitch had balls.

I’m a Catholic but the March for Life and the anti-abortion movement are both white supremacist movements. When the next sex abuse scandal hits the US Catholic Church they can look to Covington and the complete fuck up of the church hierarchy in how church interest was sacrificed for a powerful few.

And also when the next major Trump scandal gets handwaved, the US media has a case study of its failures in its collective shitting of the bed on Covington. Chris Cuomo already being called out for his racism in supporting calls for Kamala Harris to show her birth certificate.

[Alan_X]

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

Sexual abuse is everywhere and it should always be emphasised that most sexual abuse is perpetrated by family members or close friends of the family. But there is a common thread that runs through most of the examples you mentioned - the use of a position of power to groom or coerce vulnerable people.

The Catholic Church is one of a number of organisations that provide paedophiles with opportunities for sexual predation. The point about the Catholic Church is the sheer scale of the problem and the cover-up of the issue.

No one is saying that all priests, scout masters, sports coaches etc are paedophiles, but those roles are attractive to paedophiles because they provide cover and opportuniy.

[BarryCrocker]

Can we move all the Catholic church stuff across to the open and active thread instead of here?

[Red Beret]

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

Thank you.  Far more adroitly worded than I could have mustered.

Trump caved as expected on SOTU. Only a matter of time before he caves on the shutdown. Shutdown could be over tomorrow if Mitch had balls.

I’m a Catholic but the March for Life and the anti-abortion movement are both white supremacist movements. When the next sex abuse scandal hits the US Catholic Church they can look to Covington and the complete fuck up of the church hierarchy in how church interest was sacrificed for a powerful few.

And also when the next major Trump scandal gets handwaved, the US media has a case study of its failures in its collective shitting of the bed on Covington. Chris Cuomo already being called out for his racism in supporting calls for Kamala Harris to show her birth certificate.

Exactly.  If people want to know what this bullshit is all about, it's nothing more than state sponsored reproductive control.  People can read up on it, check out the stories about the rape camps from the Bosnian civil war etc.

[So… Howard Philips]

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

I was brought up a Catholic, altar boy from 9-11 and attended a Christian Brothers school. I had no personal experience of abuse (we had one Brother who would turn up when we were in the showers) and all the clerics seemed to be just another authority figure, like a teacher or policeman.

Sexual abuse can happen anywhere whether it's a sports coach promising success or grooming through alcohol or drugs but the Catholic Church's guilt is magnified by the the hypocrisy of an organisation which threatens hell fire for any 12 year old who fiddles with his knob but covers up for grown men who actually sin.

[Corkboy]

Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

A Christian, would you believe....

was in a Christian rap duo known as Sleeplesssouljaz with his sister

[classycarra]

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

Have to say this sounds uncomfortably like trying to create a false equivalence. Sexual abuse is rife, you're absolutely right. But not many (if any) organisations have systematically coordinated cover ups of abuse in the way the catholic church has. Not to mention for as many centuries.

Couldn't help but think of this reading your post:
"Say if there are 200 million priests in the world and five percent are paedophiles. That's still only 10 million."

[Giono]

Sexual abuse is everywhere and it should always be emphasised that most sexual abuse is perpetrated by family members or close friends of the family. But there is a common thread that runs through most of the examples you mentioned - the use of a position of power to groom or coerce vulnerable people.

The Catholic Church is one of a number of organisations that provide paedophiles with opportunities for sexual predation. The point about the Catholic Church is the sheer scale of the problem and the cover-up of the issue.

No one is saying that all priests, scout masters, sports coaches etc are paedophiles, but those roles are attractive to paedophiles because they provide cover and opportuniy.

Torally agree.

One horrible example is the 'Residential Schools' in Canada. They were institutions run by various churches that would remove aboriginal children from their parents to 'educate' them in how to be a European christian. They were a friggin horror show of abuse. Run by various religions. These kids were not just vulnerable, they were enprisoned, freely disciplined by supposed Christians, and absolutely powerless. A magnet for abusers of various religions.

[Giono]

Have to say this sounds uncomfortably like trying to create a false equivalence. Sexual abuse is rife, you're absolutely right. But not many (if any) organisations have systematically coordinated cover ups of abuse in the way the catholic church has. Not to mention for as many centuries.

Couldn't help but think of this reading your post:
"Say if there are 200 million priests in the world and five percent are paedophiles. That's still only 10 million."

No, it is not false equivalency. It is the sheer size of the organisation that makes it uniquely capable.  Universities and soorts teams have organised cover ups and have let abusers free to create more vistims. Families keep the secret about uncle Tommy. They are not incentivised to bring these things out in the open.

In some way the systematic cover up by the Catholic Church being exposed has created a culture where other abuse is now being talked about.

[electricghost]

I’m a Catholic but the March for Life and the anti-abortion movement are both white supremacist movements.

Are they ?   Nothing religious about them ? Are they not largely Christian movements to which some white supremacists have attached themselves to recently in an attempt to gain credibility ?

Would Mother Teresa not have been in full approval of these movements based on her religious beliefs rather than a desire to have whiteness rule ?

[classycarra]

No, it is not false equivalency. It is the sheer size of the organisation that makes it uniquely capable.  Universities and soorts teams have organised cover ups and have let abusers free to create more vistims. Families keep the secret about uncle Tommy. They are not incentivised to bring these things out in the open.

In some way the systematic cover up by the Catholic Church being exposed has created a culture where other abuse is now being talked about.

Maybe it wasn't false equivalence, maybe it was. But this last sentence, while I appreciate you might be a more optimistic person than me, reads extremely problematically. It makes it sound like there has been some virtue in learning how scummy the catholic church is. Given it persists as an organisation, as does the systemic sexual abuse and cover-up, I find it extremely hard to praise the 'culture'. Also given catholic (and other religions') residential schools and their ilk persist around the world.

Feel like we're still a million miles from progress, and should be wary of over celebrating simply because more people are aware of what the church has done.

Your first paragraph I just entirely disagree with. You're suggesting that the catholic church is proportionally abusive (another false equivalence risk I reckon) given the size of it.

[Giono]

Maybe it wasn't false equivalence, maybe it was. But this last sentence, while I appreciate you might be a more optimistic person than me, reads extremely problematically. It makes it sound like there has been some virtue in learning how scummy the catholic church is. Given it persists as an organisation, as does the systemic sexual abuse and cover-up, I find it extremely hard to praise the 'culture'. Also given catholic (and other religions') residential schools and their ilk persist around the world.

Feel like we're still a million miles from progress, and should be wary of over celebrating simply because more people are aware of what the church has done.

Your first paragraph I just entirely disagree with. You're suggesting that the catholic church is proportionally abusive (another false equivalence risk I reckon) given the size of it.

Not virtue, but something had to crack the seal. The Catholic church is a really big fish, much bigger than creepy uncle Jimmy. But hopefully the exposure they did and are getting is leading to others coming forward with claims in sports, business, politics, gymnastics and yes...against creepy uncle Jimmy.

[classycarra]

Not virtue, but something had to crack the seal. The Catholic church is a really big fish, much bigger than creepy uncle Jimmy. But hopefully the exposure they did and are getting is leading to others coming forward with claims in sports, business, politics, gymnastics and yes...against creepy uncle Jimmy.

Hopefully someone, at some point soon (maybe the next few centuries) these investigations into the scummy catholic church might lead in a vague direction toward justice. I hope not too many other people are over celebrating.

As it stands, the exposure doesn't seem to be doing anything useful stop the shameless systematic protecting and covering up of abuse from the position of head c*nt (pope) downwards.

[Brissyred]

The Catholic church has sinned. I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy and my folks would have the priest over for dinner etc. I have met good and bad priests. I never had or heard of anything in my experience.

But sexual abuse is everywhere. I have known plenty of bosses having sex with their workers from a position of power. One got fired for it. I've been creeped out by teachers and boy scout leaders and neighbours. I've never been creeped out by a priest. But I know there are plenty and we are starting to hear about them more and more. We are finally starting to hear about sports coaches now too finally. Then there is the guy just recently that raped a woman in a coma.

The Catholic church has added a vow of celibacy and a denial of homosexuality to the mix. Along with an ancient and secrative bureaucracy run by these repressed men. A toxic mix.

But the sexual abuse of power is everywhere.

Get to fuck.
The catholic church is an international criminal cartel, they are still to this day harboring, aiding and abetting serial sexual abusers. They have acted as conspirators in a worldwide child sex ring on a local, national and international level on a scale far greater than anything else seen in the last few hundred years.
If this wasn't the catholic church the vatican would have been raided and shut down by interpol years ago.

[Corkboy]

Yup. Sexual abuse is everywhere but the catlicks were the mob element. They protected the abusers. Had their own little Jeebus Justice system going on.

[Something Worse]

Get to fuck.
The catholic church is an international criminal cartel, they are still to this day harboring, aiding and abetting serial sexual abusers. They have acted as conspirators in a worldwide child sex ring on a local, national and international level on a scale far greater than anything else seen in the last few hundred years.
If this wasn't the catholic church the vatican would have been raided and shut down by interpol years ago.

Like the BBC was?

[Brissyred]

Like the BBC was?

No, the BBC shit was not a worldwide thing, nor was it on the scale of the Catholic church.

[Something Worse]

No, the BBC shit was not a worldwide thing, nor was it on the scale of the Catholic church.

So is there an acceptable amount of child molestation before you shut down an institution? Somewhere between the BBC and the Catholic Church I assume?

I'm being facetious, but "the Catholic Church is full of pedophiles and should be shut down" is such a shitty point of view.

[Brissyred]

So is there an acceptable amount of child molestation before you shut down an institution? Somewhere between the BBC and the Catholic Church I assume?

I'm being facetious, but "the Catholic Church is full of pedophiles and should be shut down" is such a shitty point of view.

Over a century of institutionalised abuse perpetrated by an organisation that demonstrates  a consistent systematic MO on a world wide scale, an approach that comes right from the top, an organisation that has shown no contrition and continues to act in the same way?
Why is it a shitty point of view that it should be shut down?

[Raul!]

Sexual abuse is everywhere and it should always be emphasised that most sexual abuse is perpetrated by family members or close friends of the family. But there is a common thread that runs through most of the examples you mentioned - the use of a position of power to groom or coerce vulnerable people.

The Catholic Church is one of a number of organisations that provide paedophiles with opportunities for sexual predation. The point about the Catholic Church is the sheer scale of the problem and the cover-up of the issue.

No one is saying that all priests, scout masters, sports coaches etc are paedophiles, but those roles are attractive to paedophiles because they provide cover and opportuniy.

Indeed.

It is the cover up at the highest organisational levels that is the most damning part of the Catholic Church's involvement.

[Something Worse]

Over a century of institutionalised abuse perpetrated by an organisation that demonstrates  a consistent systematic MO on a world wide scale, an approach that comes right from the top, an organisation that has shown no contrition and continues to act in the same way?
Why is it a shitty point of view that it should be shut down?

Terrible things are done every day in the name of everything you can imagine. You'd have to eradicate humanity to stop anything bad from being done by organizations with power and influence. All religions, most countries, sports, Amazon, Facebook... the list is endless.

And if not, where do you draw the line?

[Raul!]

Terrible things are done every day in the name of everything you can imagine. You'd have to eradicate humanity to stop anything bad from being done by organizations with power and influence. All religions, most countries, sports, Amazon, Facebook... the list is endless.

And if not, where do you draw the line?

Fair enough. This however is a discussion about the Catholic Church. Bringing them to task or discussing them here does not preclude going after other criminals. But to do nothing because others are also bad is an avoidable example of whataboutery.

[Corkboy]

Terrible things are done every day in the name of everything you can imagine. You'd have to eradicate humanity to stop anything bad from being done by organizations with power and influence. All religions, most countries, sports, Amazon, Facebook... the list is endless.

So if you went into your local cop shop to complain about having been robbed, would "lots of people get robbed" be an acceptable response?

[classycarra]

So is there an acceptable amount of child molestation before you shut down an institution? Somewhere between the BBC and the Catholic Church I assume?

I'm being facetious, but "the Catholic Church is full of pedophiles and should be shut down" is such a shitty point of view.

For what it's worth I think that's a bit too far off (though I'm all for a more secular world!) - my simpler point of view is "the catholic church is full of paedophiles and should be prosecuted in the manner most other institutions/citizens/gangs/broadcasters/charities would".

[Brissyred]

Terrible things are done every day in the name of everything you can imagine. You'd have to eradicate humanity to stop anything bad from being done by organizations with power and influence. All religions, most countries, sports, Amazon, Facebook... the list is endless.

And if not, where do you draw the line?

Just wow, other people commit crime so we shouldn't shut down the worst crime gangs? Words fail me.
What reason do you have for not wanting to close a pedophile ring?