Author Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance  (Read 234268 times)

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4960 on: April 25, 2024, 12:38:36 pm »
But why has it taken 2 months for this to take effect? He announced his intention to leave in January.

Andy just wanted to get in his usual ‘matchgoing’ comments in case anyone new here doesn’t know he goes the game, he doesn’t know any more than the rest of us  ;D

No one knows if things would have got better or worse.  The season has happened back to front, the first few months should have been the struggle after last year and having a whole new midfield to fit in. But things where great through what should have been the tough times (mad injury crisis), but now has been a collective falling off a cliff in a month.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4961 on: April 25, 2024, 12:43:46 pm »
It can be an overwhelming force or a fragile thing.

Unfortunately, you tend to lose it when you start handing the opposition the initiative. Once you start gifting opportunities it can quickly go wrong. Look at that suicidal move at Old Trafford. A gift of a pass to an opposition player while your goalkeeper has left the ground to purchase hot dog. You then get edgy. The opposition sniff it out and have a go. All your possession means nothing, as you piss about at the back, doing nothing with your 80% possession. Opposition hound you into yet more mistakes. You become even more edgy, which encourages them further. You keep miss-placing passes, your play becomes disjointed and ragged. Confidence ebbs away. You lack confidence and nothing runs for you or falls for you. Momentum is lost. Other opponents watch this then know exactly how to work on you.

I've said it a few times, but we've done this to ourselves. We've handed the initiative to our opponents and it's cost us. They know they can let us have the ball because we'll fuck about with it then lose it. Away at Goodison, 73% possession. Lost 2-0 and never looked like scoring. We showed teams how to beat us, and they're obliging.

When the opposition know we need twenty chances to score a goal, and they only need one or two, it gives them confidence. When they also know we shit the bed early on and are nailed on to go a goal down, they are bound to fly out at us. Again, we handed the initiative to our opponents and even distinctly average opposition are filling their boots now.



I hate the XG stat as means fuck all but we could have easily scored 4 last night.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4962 on: April 25, 2024, 12:44:31 pm »
Andy just wanted to get in his usual ‘matchgoing’ comments in case anyone new here doesn’t know he goes the game, he doesn’t know any more than the rest of us  ;D

No one knows if things would have got better or worse.  The season has happened back to front, the first few months should have been the struggle after last year and having a whole new midfield to fit in. But things where great through what should have been the tough times (mad injury crisis), but now has been a collective falling off a cliff in a month.

Also if you keep winning in injury time/coming back from behind to win (as we have all season), then it gives you momentum. But if you keep on needing to win that way then it'll catch up with you.

Our season has been like Arsenal's was last year.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4963 on: April 25, 2024, 12:47:02 pm »
Yeah, there's plenty to be positive about this season, but I'm really not here for the "we'd all have taken this position at the start of the season" shouts to be honest. Dropping points in one or two games during the run-in like in 18-19 and 22-23 is a shrug shoulders, take plenty of pride moment. The way we have capitulated in the past month against some very average teams certainly isn't.

I don’t get it either, then again I was predicting a challenge from the very start.

Offline mullyred94

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4964 on: April 25, 2024, 12:49:00 pm »
doco gonna be interesting for the wrong reasons  :'(

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4965 on: April 25, 2024, 12:49:28 pm »
Watch city lose tonight just to sucker us into believing there may still be hope

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4966 on: April 25, 2024, 12:50:43 pm »
Watch city lose tonight just to sucker us into believing there may still be hope

Would make the North London Derby a massive game. Not that I’ll have the stomach to watch it.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4967 on: April 25, 2024, 12:51:19 pm »
I hate the XG stat as means fuck all but we could have easily scored 4 last night.
It's the same in most games now, though. Could've, should've, would've, but didn't.

How many times do our opponents score with their first/only attempt on goal, and how many chances do we waste before we register? It's an ongoing theme now.

Such things are confidence sappers and momentum killers.


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« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 12:55:48 pm by Son of Spion »
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4968 on: April 25, 2024, 12:51:30 pm »
I don’t get it either, then again I was predicting a challenge from the very start.

I am not sure I believe that statement. To win titles now you have to be almost perfect, we had to rebuild our entire midfield how in god's name would you have expected to have won the title?  ;D
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Offline slaphead

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4969 on: April 25, 2024, 12:51:59 pm »
I'm not sure there was a game or a moment we can look back on and say that's when he lost it. People say the Utd cup game. Maybe. I just think the constant having to come from behind in games caught up with us. I'd like to see how we compare to the top 6 or 7 teams in that regard. What is it now 23/24 games this season that's happened? And something like 17 of them are in the league. It was only a matter of time that a team got a 2nd. Just had to be Everton.

Offline DelTrotter

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4970 on: April 25, 2024, 12:52:34 pm »
Andy just wanted to get in his usual ‘matchgoing’ comments in case anyone new here doesn’t know he goes the game, he doesn’t know any more than the rest of us  ;D


 ;D

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4971 on: April 25, 2024, 12:54:06 pm »
I am not sure I believe that statement. To win titles now you have to be almost perfect, we had to rebuild our entire midfield how in god's name would you have expected to have won the title?  ;D

I doubt anyone expected us to win the title, but with the players and manager we have, there was always a good chance that we would be in the mix. The last nine games of last season gave us a template to build on and, helped adding a couple of excellent players into the midfield, that's exactly what we did.

Talking about us like we have overachieved is nonsense. We did very well to sustain our form during an injury crisis, but that doesn't excuse falling apart once we came through that period. We'll probably end up in the early 80's for points and I'd say that's what we should be expecting every season with this current group of players.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4972 on: April 25, 2024, 01:01:38 pm »
At 2 down and 15 to go last night, and it has to be said, with very little to back it up, I still thought that if we can get one back we could maybe go on and win. I was thinking of that mad Portsmouth game from 08/09 (only 2-1 down then I think).

In itself that’s a testament to Jurgen and this group of players. They’ve made us dream and believe anything is possible. It isn’t always but when the dust settles on it all we’ll all have incredible memories to look back on.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4973 on: April 25, 2024, 01:04:24 pm »
Watch city lose tonight just to sucker us into believing there may still be hope

There is still hope. What is the point in throwing in the towel now? There is every chance we might be only 1 point behind Arsenal On Sunday.

I'm still tipping us to win the league.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4974 on: April 25, 2024, 01:05:30 pm »
At 2 down and 15 to go last night, and it has to be said, with very little to back it up, I still thought that if we can get one back we could maybe go on and win. I was thinking of that mad Portsmouth game from 08/09 (only 2-1 down then I think).

In itself that’s a testament to Jurgen and this group of players. They’ve made us dream and believe anything is possible. It isn’t always but when the dust settles on it all we’ll all have incredible memories to look back on.
It did cross my mind that we could pull it back, but then I was noticing how nothing would run for us or fall for us. That's when I said to those I was with that "it's not happening, is it". I think we sort of knew them. You get those games where nothing runs.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4975 on: April 25, 2024, 01:05:59 pm »
I doubt anyone expected us to win the title, but with the players and manager we have, there was always a good chance that we would be in the mix. The last nine games of last season gave us a template to build on and, helped adding a couple of excellent players into the midfield, that's exactly what we did.

Talking about us like we have overachieved is nonsense. We did very well to sustain our form during an injury crisis, but that doesn't excuse falling apart once we came through that period. We'll probably end up in the early 80's for points and I'd say that's what we should be expecting every season with this current group of players.

Sorry, I just can't agree on that. If Arsenal had had the number of injuries we've had they would not be where they are now. When you are chasing four trophies as were this season for a large part it cripples you, in the end. The number of fixtures, the timing of them that doesn't help any team. A team like City who probably have two teams they can put out, but we're not in that position. Both times which we have challenged for a quadruple have ended the same, decimating the squad. It's just not possible.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4976 on: April 25, 2024, 01:07:05 pm »
There is still hope. What is the point in throwing in the towel now? There is every chance we might be only 1 point behind Arsenal On Sunday.

I'm still tipping us to win the league.

Mathematically yes. But given how awful we've been for weeks now, do you really see us beating Villa away? Or even West Ham?

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4977 on: April 25, 2024, 01:07:35 pm »
There is still hope. What is the point in throwing in the towel now? There is every chance we might be only 1 point behind Arsenal On Sunday.

I'm still tipping us to win the league.
If we win it now, I'll laugh my head off 'til the day I die. It would be ridiculous. Imagine the faces on the Bitters. 😃
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4978 on: April 25, 2024, 01:08:13 pm »
It did cross my mind that we could pull it back, but then I was noticing how nothing would run for us or fall for us. That's when I said to those I was with that "it's not happening, is it". I think we sort of knew them. You get those games where nothing runs.

Yeah that’s true. Whilst I did keep a very faint hope, that “it’s not happening” moment was probably when Diaz hit the post.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4979 on: April 25, 2024, 01:12:03 pm »
Yeah that’s true. Whilst I did keep a very faint hope, that “it’s not happening” moment was probably when Diaz hit the post.
Yep. You just know then. I watched that from behind in slow motion replay. Just a small amount of inward spin on that ball and it goes in off the post, but no spin on it whatsoever. Fine margins, eh. When things are running for you, that goes in. When they aren't...
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Bastion Of Invincibility

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4980 on: April 25, 2024, 01:17:00 pm »
doco gonna be interesting for the wrong reasons  :'(

Cracking decision from FSG that. Squad already dealing with the pressure of trying to give Jürgen a grand send off despite being in a rebuilding phase and now they have the extra pressure of a documentary heaped on them. Not to mention the announcement of a season ticket price rise just before a home European tie.

Offline Koplord

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4981 on: April 25, 2024, 01:21:31 pm »
We won the next two league games, not convincingly but we got the wins. Then we went back there in the league. If we beat them (the more convincingly the better) it would have put the cup defeat to bed and got the momentum back. We fucked it again though and took that into Atalanta and Palace, players and the Anfield crowd.

I thought this but I just looked at our fixtures and remembered the games and the cracks were apparent in December. The current performance level has happened quite a few times but we managed to bounce back until that Atalanta and Palace game.

United at home imo is one of worst results ever under klopp given they are so poor. Issues apparent here with finishing.

Home to arsenal we have 20 minutes where we absolutely dominate and should win the game.

Burnley away could have easily turned into a draw. Missed tonnes of chances and only Jota making it 2–0 likely saved us.

We then had a few results against Newcastle in bad form, Bournemouth and some EFL - Fa Cup games. Fluke the arsenal fa cup game really as we started the game playing like we are now.

I started to believe around Chelsea because we played so well but not sure how much you can look into that. Next game is arsenal away and we play exactly like we played last night. Can’t defend, can’t break them down and constantly play ourselves into trouble.

Play the same at Forrest away and then draw with City at home who put in worst performance second half I have ever seen from them at Anfield. Any Liverpool team of the last 7-8 years would have won that game 3or4

United games I won’t go over again but everything we are seeing now was evident then. Scraped past Brighton who people praised but I thought were shite and they haven’t actually won a game since scoring only 1 goal. Barely beat sheff united at home who are statistically one of worst teams ever in the PL

Looking now we really deceived ourselves. Things haven’t been good for a while and possibly only because of easier fixtures we have got this far

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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4982 on: April 25, 2024, 01:22:31 pm »
Sorry, I just can't agree on that. If Arsenal had had the number of injuries we've had they would not be where they are now. When you are chasing four trophies as were this season for a large part it cripples you, in the end. The number of fixtures, the timing of them that doesn't help any team. A team like City who probably have two teams they can put out, but we're not in that position. Both times which we have challenged for a quadruple have ended the same, decimating the squad. It's just not possible.

How many injuries have City really had though? The had De Bruyne out for a few months and Haaland had a spell out, Stones as well maybe?

It's to be expected you will have some players getting injured but what we had was an actual injury crisis whereby we were forced to play youth players, it doesn't matter how big your squad is if half of them are out at the same time

Offline Sharado

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4983 on: April 25, 2024, 01:25:22 pm »
Things haven’t been good for a while and possibly only because of easier fixtures we have got this far

This is obviously easy to say with hindsight but a lot of the season when we go our obligatory goal down I would have the thought 'maybe this is the moment it ends'. As in the form, the run, being top...that sense that we weren't quite good enough to go the whole way, it was always there.

It wasn't in 18/19, 19/20 or 21/22...if we went a goal down I'd just back those sides to get right back in it. They had that inevitability. This side have rode their luck a bit [bad luck with injuries, decent luck with results] and just when it looked like they were going to ride it all the way to the end the wheels came off. If we'd lost a couple of games mid season and had a bit of momentum into 3rd this would all feel so different. But here we are.
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Anything else is negligent.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4984 on: April 25, 2024, 01:27:43 pm »
Sorry, I just can't agree on that. If Arsenal had had the number of injuries we've had they would not be where they are now. When you are chasing four trophies as were this season for a large part it cripples you, in the end.

I completely agree with the last bit .. however if it's ever pointed out during the season you're flamed on here because only playing the strongest team is acceptable at all times and every competition is equally, unimpeachably important
It's strategically moronic.

We can challenge for the title, or we can make a run at the domestic cups .. we can't do both

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4985 on: April 25, 2024, 01:30:56 pm »
I completely agree with the last bit .. however if it's ever pointed out during the season you're flamed on here because only playing the strongest team is acceptable at all times and every competition is equally, unimpeachably important
It's strategically moronic.

We can challenge for the title, or we can make a run at the domestic cups .. we can't do both

That's the problem though. If you have a season where you've won the Cups there will always be those who will say, but it's not one of the "big ones". So if you throw everything at the League and end up in second place to City and no Cup wins, they will moan about that as well. It's the lack of perspective between the two that's the problem.
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4986 on: April 25, 2024, 01:32:54 pm »
That's the problem though. If you have a season where you've won the Cups there will always be those who will say, but it's not one of the "big ones". So if you throw everything at the League and end up in second place to City and no Cup wins, they will moan about that as well. It's the lack of perspective between the two that's the problem.

Yeah I don't care what the approach is it just needs to be congruent and recognise the limitations on a club with our resources .. the decision should be taken at club level at the start of the season

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4987 on: April 25, 2024, 01:35:56 pm »
Yeah I don't care what the approach is it just needs to be congruent and recognise the limitations on a club with our resources .. the decision should be taken at club level at the start of the season

The issue then would be people will say we're Liverpool and we should be challenging for everything. The problem is too many are not accepting the changing climate that is happening in the game overall. As you say, not even us can do it all now as we're taking on state ownership teams.
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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4988 on: April 25, 2024, 01:37:11 pm »
I am not sure I believe that statement. To win titles now you have to be almost perfect, we had to rebuild our entire midfield how in god's name would you have expected to have won the title?  ;D

It doesn’t have to be a transition, we still got a side capable of challenging. We have the best Gk in the league, the best left back, the best wide forward, and we have VVD Trent Thiago Konate Diaz Gakpo Nunez Jota Jones Macallister and Szoboslai to supplement that, we are one two players away for having a squad as good as any we’ve had under Klopp.

Because I rated our side more than others, and understood the season we finished outside of the top 4 to be an anomaly.

Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4989 on: April 25, 2024, 01:38:14 pm »
The issue then would be people will say we're Liverpool and we should be challenging for everything. The problem is too many are not accepting the changing climate that is happening in the game overall. As you say, not even us can do it all now as we're taking on state ownership teams.
But going out of the cups (especially the FA cup) really affected us.

We went out of the two cups and it hasn't made us better, has it? Also, winning the league cup visibly gave us a boost, didn't it?

The momentum is the most important thing. The league was never a guarantee and we'd be in a better place now if we had an FA cup final or a UEFA cup semi to look forward to.

Tiredness and injuries are not the root cause of this slump, it's momentum and Jurgen said so in his post match conference. Now that we have our best players fit, we're even playing worse so I don't know how that's due to injuries or saving legs in other competitions.

If we put all our eggs in one or two baskets then we risk winning nothing and winning breeds winning.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 01:43:30 pm by MonsLibpool »

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4990 on: April 25, 2024, 01:48:18 pm »
But going out of the cups (especially the FA cup) really affected us.

We went out of the two cups and it hasn't made us better, has it? Also, winning the league cup visibly gave us a boost, didn't it?

The momentum is the most important thing. The league was never a guarantee and we'd be in a better place now if we had an FA cup final or a UEFA cup semi to look forward to.

Tiredness and injuries are not the root cause of this slump, it's momentum and Jurgen said so in his post match conference. Now that we have our best players fit, we're even playing worse so I don't know how that's due to injuries or saving legs in other competitions.

If we put all our eggs in one or two baskets then we risk winning nothing and winning breeds winning.

I am going on about winning quadruples, not winning an isolated cup.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4991 on: April 25, 2024, 01:52:38 pm »
There is still hope. What is the point in throwing in the towel now? There is every chance we might be only 1 point behind Arsenal On Sunday.

I'm still tipping us to win the league.
Well, I love the optimism. It'd be probably the most dramatic end to a premier league season ever if it happened.
Yeah that’s true. Whilst I did keep a very faint hope, that “it’s not happening” moment was probably when Diaz hit the post.
Trent coming off was the moment for me. Like you I was still clinging to previous comebacks. Robbo and Trent off for Tsimikas and Gomez felt like the fat lady in full flow.

Offline Paul JH

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4992 on: April 25, 2024, 01:54:24 pm »
More power to the people who were thinking '2-0 but we can do this' at 75 mins, I just thought we could play until Saturday and we wouldn't score a goal.

Every single week I've thought 'well if City get beat there' or Arsenal, never happens. It's not happening. We deserve to be out of the race when you've got 8 games to go, it's in your hands, and you subsequently fall apart in the next 4-5 matches in the league and Europe. We'd be quite clearly the worst of the three to win it if by some absolute miracle the other two contrive to lose it.
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Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4993 on: April 25, 2024, 01:56:23 pm »
I am going on about winning quadruples, not winning an isolated cup.
Winning the quadruple wasn't unrealistic in the form we were in and the squad depth that we have.

Beat United in the FA cup and there's a world we get a bye to the final like they did. Beating them there would have given us more than enough confidence in the league especially the second game at Old Trafford.

For the Europa League, we were the best team and if we were on form, no way we lose 0-3 at home. Even if we play that poorly, we'd have scored and lost 2-1 at worst.

Winning four trophies should not be an expectation but progressing through those competitions would have been huge for our confidence. It was the same confidence that helped us when we had so many missing. That's why I never got the dismissive attitude towards the lesser competitions.

A quadruple isn't normally realistic but it was really realistic this season but that's not to say that was an expectation. We had done very well to get into a very decent position and beating United twice in two weeks would have had us walking on water confidence-wise with the big players coming back at the right time to give us more options.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 02:14:48 pm by MonsLibpool »

Offline Nick110581

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4994 on: April 25, 2024, 02:13:22 pm »
There is still hope. What is the point in throwing in the towel now? There is every chance we might be only 1 point behind Arsenal On Sunday.

I'm still tipping us to win the league.

We won’t win the League now.

Arsenal would need to drop 4 points from 12 and City would need do the same over 6 matches. They could drop 3 and we better their GD.

City have a nice incentive now and will beat Brighton. They could realistically be top on Sunday night with a game in hand.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 02:16:53 pm by Nick110581 »
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Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4995 on: April 25, 2024, 03:11:33 pm »
Also I'm really not buying it was Klopp leaving, that argument just falls to shit with the fact he announced in January and we've been winning fine and picking up trophies since then.

Something happened at the end of March, either that or we have just hit a wall of low energy, form and can't get out, which happens, sometimes it doesn't have to be some kind of specific reason or excuse.

Counter argument: The players - and indeed the backroom staff have finally come to the realisation that this is all ending. Just look at the effect that Jurgen leaving has had on us, but then take into consideration that the club is a closed community and ALL the staff going at once is actually happening. All the realtionships that have grown in the past years. All about to go.

My take? It's absolutely down to the pressure of them wanting to deliver because of that which has made them totally freeze. These guys are only human and no-one - and I mean no-one - is immune from the mental stress of pressure such as this. All the squad are class footballers. More importantly, they're a team made up of unique individuals who obviously thrive in the Liverpool Football Club environment. They've lost their captain (Hendo) and senior players such as Millie, Bobby and Sadio and had to adjust. Then they learn that their World is changing completely. They wanted to win so much that they ended up succumbing to the trying too hard problem. And it shows.

I'm under pressure constantly in my job to perform. Everybody is, so I'm not unique in that, but the higher up you go in the visibility chain of careers brings a level of scrutiny that even I can't comprehend, although I know a few current International rugby players very well that also talk of the pressure they are under on a daily basis. And that is in a sport that is high on the media attention, but nowhere near the levels of football and even moreso at a club like ours. Pressure can do a lot of nasty things to you (I'm struggling with health issues right now - rashes, sleeplessness, anxiety) and that's just me under pressure to provide for my family. It makes you do stupid things and also makes you try even harder which ultimately backfires.

What I'm saying is that it's not as cut and dried and "so-and-so being shite" or "he missed this" and "he was too slow" - mentally what they are facing is fucking huge. End of an era. End of some careers here. In a place that they love and have given everything for. And yet it's all going to change. Like I said in a previous post, it's time to do so, but the mental tally of that happening to this bunch of players cannot even begin to be estimated by any of us. Take Jurgen alone. Just look at him. He's spent. That man who has given us so much over the years has nothing left to give. Reminds me of Kenny at the end. Absolutely gut wrenching to see.

What I said and will continue to say however is that this season has still seen us win something and challenge the cheats of the league when we had no right to. And couple that with the unparalelled success over the past five years we've had, that means we absolutely must not throw any of these players or indeed Jurgen under the bus, but celebrate what they've done and be thankful for it.
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Offline stonecold_jpm

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4996 on: April 25, 2024, 03:33:07 pm »
Of course City will drop points now and Arsenal will win it, it looks inevitable. It would sum up our luck that twice we needed them to drop points in the run in whilst we kept winning, but the one season they do that our performances and belief have deserted us. The fact that we had to go near perfect to win it and still didn’t has probably affected us more than people realise. Luckily for Arsenal they’ve never had to deal with that. It may take us a long time in future title race’s to be optimistic as well. 30 years perhaps who knows.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 03:35:05 pm by stonecold_jpm »

Offline Nick110581

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4997 on: April 25, 2024, 05:29:27 pm »
Of course City will drop points now and Arsenal will win it, it looks inevitable. It would sum up our luck that twice we needed them to drop points in the run in whilst we kept winning, but the one season they do that our performances and belief have deserted us. The fact that we had to go near perfect to win it and still didn’t has probably affected us more than people realise. Luckily for Arsenal they’ve never had to deal with that. It may take us a long time in future title race’s to be optimistic as well. 30 years perhaps who knows.

City are unbeaten in 29 matches yet it looks inevitable that they will drop points. 😬

They also dropped points two years ago in the run in.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 05:31:20 pm by Nick110581 »
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Offline KC7

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4998 on: April 25, 2024, 07:31:57 pm »
People can point to certain games (Man U at OT) or it being the manager's last season as being reasons for why it went the way it has, but ultimately I feel we were too much on the edge of our seat all season to really feel totally confident we could do it. This is not a team that can grind out a few 1-0 wins. We've looked ropey in every game bar maybe five, which makes it remarkable that we have won as many as we have (and a pot to go with it). Reminds me of the Rodgers season where games were too open. All those comebacks were a testament to Klopp and the spirit of the team, but it was too much.

Think the main issue is we didn't address midfield in summer '22 (when the great man reeled off those 8 midfielders, which included Ox, Keita, 36 yo Milner and a few others whose legs had gone). I don't know if it was an oversight on his part, or was it financial restrictions (Jurgen was a rare breed in that he wasn't one to complain about lack of finances, he just got on with it).

A Klopp midfield has to be purring, providing the protection for the defence as well as winning the ball back quickly to feed it to the attackers. We really got four years of that at its optimum, summer '18 to '22 (coinciding with prime Fabinho, and our four best seasons). We saw the immense improvement when we sold Coutinho, as we tightened up defensively by not having to carry a lightweight in midfield, and (to my and many others surprise who thought losing him would hurt our creativity) we were even more dangerous going forward as the "creativity" was now winning the ball back quickly and allowing us to break faster, thus more space for the forwards to exploit.

We saw the difference in plain sight of just how pivotal a top notch central midfield is to a team just past the midway point of the 20- 21 season (just after the January window when we incredulously didn't sign two adequate central defenders at the beginning of the month when we were top of the league, the first of the two big blunders transfer window wise, the 2nd being the aforementioned summer '22 window). We had Fabinho and Hendo as our two central defenders, thus left a gaping hole in midfield, and we lost game after game (6 on the spin)...we then put them back in their natural position, and went on title winning form, with the might of Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips as the centre half pairing. The midfield locked up the defence with the two behind them just having to do the basics. It's quite possible we could have won a league title, with William's and Phillips as our central defence before Fabinho and Hendo were moved there, that's how good the midfield was (Fabinho and Hendo shouldn't have been moved at all, as two centre backs should have been in through the door on 1 January, straight after the players had done remarkable in the December to put us top without any available centre backs for most of it, with players openly looking toward the window opening (Andy Robertson post game (boxing day game or the game after that) on LFCTV being one) and reinforcements brought in, which shockingly did not happen. Jurgen kind of answered this question around the 23rd/24th of that Jan window when he rightly complained (for once) we've got no money having been asked for the umpteenth time why we haven't brought in any central defenders, but I'd love to ask him exactly what happened during that month. Without question the worst window of any team since its inception. Top of the league entering the window, a league title was beckoning, and the first thing Jurgen answered in his first press conference that January was that signing a centre back was "unlikely" (he didn't give his emotions away when he said it, but did let rip about 3 weeks later). I wasnt alone in being stunned at that comment. The closest thing to self sabotage I can recall. FSG's worst moment on the field by some distance. I'm digressing here but I remember thinking in late December someone like Gary Cahill and another coming straight in, and we'd do it. We sat on our hands and did nowt until the horse had bolted.

Back to the midfield inactivity of summer '22, we then tried to rectify it all last summer, basically akin to cramming for an exam. The change was too much, and we never addressed the defensive midfield position adequately (again more cramming with a massive/desperate bid for one two weeks before the window shut, before bringing in a 30 year old who didn't have the athleticism needed for a Klopp team). It's been a mishmash in midfield all season. Mac Allister is great, no issue with us getting that deal sorted first. But for me the main priority had to be a DM, especially so for a high risk style in Klopp. Given we press high up so leave spaces in behind, it is an absolute must to have a player who can put out fires when teams break against us (Fabinho "the lighthouse" for four years). A Klopp side demands more of the DM than most other sides, which makes it even more imperative that it's a top notch one. There have been gaping holes galore all season. Endo, bit of a cult figure, but akin to Lucas he doesn't have the physical capacity to screen the backline and shut down attacks before they get to the danger area. Teams target his lack of mobility. Another question I'd love to ask Klopp, is he surprised by how slow Endo is? "We need your legs and energy" I think is what he said to him in the changing room? I think we were all shocked when we saw him vs Newcastle. Like running in treacle. When he went off the tempo in the team went up a notch (likewise when Nunez came on for Gakpo). He has definitely become more accustomed to the style, and he's a tidy player on the ball, but we needed alot more than that. Having to play Mac out of position just imbalances the midfield, while with more balance in midfield in Endo it just leaves us more susceptible on the break. Another problem (with either of them playing in the 6) is the others in midfield have to be close to them ("compact" as Rafa would say), but that's not a Klopp team. The other midfielders shouldn't have to been carrying the work of the 6, that's impacting their game (I've no doubt its affected Dom). It would work in a more structured set up, but Klopp's is much more high risk, press high (which leaves the gaps), and that's when the athletic 6 takes up the slack, tracks runners, which we do not have.

When Fabinbo fell off a cliff in 22-23, we fell off a cliff. That protection had gone. Hendo's legs had already pretty much gone hence the need for at least one midfield reinforcement that summer, but it was the collapse of Fabinho that was most shocking. As I mentioned much more is asked of the DM in a Klopp team, which was probably why Fabinho was cooked so soon. That's the position we should have been focused on maintaining the quality of more than any other. We have seen it time and time again how important a quality one is. In Istanbul for us, we had been watertight throughout the knockouts (vs the freescoring champions of Itlay and England, both barely got a sniff), then Rafa sensing what PSV (including Park) did to that aging Milan defence decided to play Kewell rather than a DM, thus leaving Kaka free reign to run riot and slice open our helpless backline. Doesn't matter how good the central defence is (and our two were bloody good then) if theres no protection or screening infront of them they cannot do much. Makalele when he left R.Madrid, they collapsed. All that quality in defence and attack (and Casillas in goal), but there was no-one in the middle holding the show together (and every player at the time maligned that sale). He goes to Chelsea, does the same job there and they were a machine. Brazil in '02 had two of them (Gilberto and Kleberson), they needed them as all the others attacked; the three R's in the forward line and the two wingback in Cafu and Roberto Carlos. Kante at Leicester, at Chelsea, and for France (allowing Pogba the license to be solely focused on attacking). The Roy Evans team, a commanding DM is what we were crying out for. Slick passing of Redknapp, the running of McManaman (our player of the decade who frequently ran games on his own), and the finishing of Fowler; we had no anchor in midfield though, far too swashbuckling.

I think if Jurgen has one regret it's not bringing in the first midfield reinforcement in summer 22 (if he had been allowed to) as that would have left him with much less to do the following year, less cramming, as it was just too much. Under the circumstances we've had a great season.
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 07:33:43 pm by KC7 »

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance
« Reply #4999 on: April 25, 2024, 08:08:50 pm »
Great post that mate. You're right, we ended up giving ourselves too much to do in one window and it's a testament to Klopp's ability as a manager, as well as the overall performances of MacAllister particularly (although Endo and Dom have excelled in periods, too) that we've been able to compete. I disagree with some people's assessment that we would never have expected to compete this season. The pattern since 2020 has been shit season due to not filling a blatant gap in the squad (centre halves in 20/21, midfield in 22/23) followed by filling the gap and mounting a challenge. If it was down to Jürgen I'm sure we'd have filled those gaps quicker, the one criticism I think we could make of his strategy in hindsight were the Nunez and Gakpo signings when clearly it was midfield that needed sorting.

I do think though that the bigger problem preventing us getting over the line this year have been the injuries as opposed to the number of signings.

Anyway, back to the title race. Why oh why is my brain starting to ask those questions again? What if Brighton win tonight and Spurs beat Arsenal? That's plausible. Arsenal have a crap record at OT and don't like playing under pressure. City have spurs away still...forest won't be easy on the weekend.

It's the same daft thinking that had me still thinking we might turn it around and win with ten minutes left yesterday despite us looking like we wouldn't score in a month of Sundays.